Idea to spur magick hatred

[Ktavialt]

I'm all for helping to make for a more brutal, hate-filled environment
on Zalanthas and I think I know a skill of sorts which would add to it,
somatic concealment.

Basically, if you don't know what it is, it's an AD&D skill which allows
a mage to cast a spell without drawing attention to himself. I think it
would add to the fear and hatred of magickers, being that someone
could cast a spell, possibly harming you or a friend, and you may not
know who it is. Currently, if a magicker casts a spell in Allanak, sure
they may hurt you, but they're basically screwed, so they don't do it.
Being in a crowd, and not knowing which person casted a spell on
you or another I think would be awesome. Also, having it not 100%
chance of being wanted each time you cast a spell outside of your
'naki temple would be cool too.

Anyways, I think it's an awesome idea, but flame on.

[Armaddict]

I could see long-lived, extremely experienced magickers doing it.  Controlling the magick well enough to be able to be somewhat discrete.

[EvilRoeSlade]

That would be pretty god damn cool.

[X-D]

Yup, I like it, high end branched skill of course.

[Ktavialt]

I could see long-lived, extremely experienced magickers doing it.  Controlling the magick well enough to be able to be somewhat discrete.

Well, consider this. Right now when you cast a spell you see something
like 'Winds swirl around [PC]', or so forth, I don't see it as that
particularly difficult for a PC to keep those winds from swirling around
you in the first place. Even the most basic spells to a Whiran do far, far
more powerful things that still the winds around you. Speaking of, perhaps
rather than somatic concealment, a spell such as 'Still Winds', if it isn't
in already, could be made. Main effect being that if you're out in the
desert, sand doesn't blow around you blinding you even in a harsh
sandstorm, secondary effect being when you cast, those "I know exactly
whose casting this spell" winds don't swirl around you. Better yet, make
it randomly swirl around someone else. Would be nice to see someone
who isn't a magicker accused of having the power. As for the other
elements, I dunno what happens when they cast, but I'm sure something
similar would be do-able.

Now I'm not saying a neophyte, "just learned how to cause a breeze"
magicker could do it, but I don't think you gotta be an ultra-experienced
elder magicker either. For game balance issues, if you wanna say that,
then perhaps. But for reasonableness, I'm not very convinced.

Right now Allanak is pretty much an impregnable fortress to magickers
(excluding the 'rinth), and at least in Allanak, the hatred and fear for
magick is somewhat artificial. I say lets give it some substance.

[Lazloth]

You're off-topic, Ktavialt.

Regarding the somatic thing, neat idea, but if implemented, what caster would use a traditional cast (unless the hidden mode had a mana penalty or somesuch).  And short of being nifty, what's it adding?  A mechanism to avoid a crimflag on success and suppressing echoes?

[Armaddict]

I think it adds an element of surprise.  As is, -everyone-, including those completely untrained, know casting is happening.  I agree, it's hard to be afraid of something that everytime it uses what you fear, it's instantly cut down.  What's to worry, the soldiers will handle it with brutal efficiency.

What it adds, is the reason for commoners to hate them.  Never know when those shifty magickers are cursing you.  They just come out of nowhere.  Something bad happened to me a few days ago, I bet that magicker I saw did something that I didn't even know about!

It also makes magickers much more employable by people...if they could exert their powers without being noticed doing it...perhaps they could help the business, somewhat.  But damn, that templar will notice, I bet.  I dunno, I think it adds a nice facet for magickers to play, and for how people will react to them, since it would then -really- be possible for them to do things without you knowing.

[Larrath]

As long as balance is maintained (no discrete, I-don't-know-who-did-it fireballs), I think this idea has a lot of potential as a mid-range or high-end ability.

I don't know about the 'still winds' example, but a more generic 'silent casting' could be good.  Well, whatever, really...maybe it could be kept to only some types of magickers.  Either way, I think it could be useful for more secret magickers that live in either Allanak or Tuluk.

Of course, only a handful of spells should be applicable for the non-crimflag thing, since we really don't want Krathis running around and burninating the countryside without having to worry about any concenquences.


I leave it to the powers of be to decide.  Personally, I am for this idea.

[Ktavialt]

You're off-topic, Ktavialt.

Regarding the somatic thing, neat idea, but if implemented, what caster would use a traditional cast (unless the hidden mode had a mana penalty or somesuch).  And short of being nifty, what's it adding?  A mechanism to avoid a crimflag on success and suppressing echoes?

Don't know how I'm off topic, it's Code Discussions? Am I wrong?

Actually when I first thought of it, I did think a mana penalty, or perhaps
a much greater chance of failure, or both, would be a good thing. I just
forgot to add it, and when I make suggestions, it doesn't mean that my
particular style to the suggestion is the say all end all to how it's done.

What it is adding is it makes it so casting spells in town isn't certain death
for magickers. Because of this additional power given to magickers,
commoners will actually fear magickers in town as well as out. Given this
ability, I could see the common taverns not allowing magickers in it, I
could see commoners pressing templars to keep the magickers in line, and
to make sure that they're properly gemmed. I could see three Bynners
sitting in the Gaj, while all of a sudden one of them gets afflicted by a
spell [not going into IC specifics, but I'm very aware of spells that can
be brutal in a single dose], a cloaked man ends up running away and the
group goes chasing after him to find out who it is. I could also see a
person whose friend getting hurt like this taking a hatred to a commoner
that is being far too nice to a gemmed elementalist in a "You know what
that thing's capable of?!?" kind of way. I could see one known Drovian
getting killed by commoners because a different unknown Drovian casted
a spell which hurt his friend.

All of the above, I see, are -good- environmental effects on Zalanthas,
which is really the aim I have in suggesting this idea.

- Ktavialt

[EvilRoeSlade]

Regarding the somatic thing, neat idea, but if implemented, what caster would use a traditional cast (unless the hidden mode had a mana penalty or somesuch).  And short of being nifty, what's it adding?  A mechanism to avoid a crimflag on success and suppressing echoes?

There are a number of drawbacks that could be added to a skill like that.  But the biggest one is already inherent: risk of failure.  Like the steal skill but far worse, failing at this skill would seriously fucck you over.

As for what it would accomplish, it would give magickers a mechanism to harass the populace.  Increasing the friction between the two groups, as well as making it a good deal less one-sided, could only be a good thing.

[wizturbo]

I really really really like this idea.  

Templars and other magickers should be able to determine the source of a spell though.  This would give more experienced magickers a bit more leeway in using their arts, where in the cities its absolute suicide to do so.

[Ghost]

Brilliant idea indeed.

[adgohan]

This is a great idea. If it suppressed the criminal code, it would be a good way to bring the fear of gemmed magickers back into existence, where I believe it is currently severely lacking.

It doesn't really address the problem with the fear of magickers(warriors/rangers attacking elementalists straight up in the wild after they cast, though it may prevent people from noticing them as much) but I'd say it's a damn good start.

[JollyGreenGiant]

since we really don't want Krathis running around and burninating the countryside

And all the thatched roof cottages.

I really like this idea, for all of the reasons everyone has mentioned.  Perhaps to maintain balance, the skill can be toggled on and off, and when on, increases the chance of spell failure, regardless of whether or not you succeed at your "still spell" skill check?

[spawnloser]

Ktavialt, your post in Ask The Staff about this would probably best be sent to the mud account email rather than posted in Ask The Staff.

Editted to add: Oh, and idea it in game.

[Ktavialt]

Ktavialt, your post in Ask The Staff about this would probably best be sent to the mud account email rather than posted in Ask The Staff.

Editted to add: Oh, and idea it in game.

Well its already posted so... oopsie, but I'll do the other two, hopefully
the staff won't think I'm trying to bombard them with this idea, since
ultimately its really their call and coding resources .

[Dakkon Black]

Has someone Idead this? Because this would be a skill that would add much to the game system.

[Sir Diealot]

What if, instead of a skill.. it's a new 'word'. .like 'nil'.. that costs something like double or triple the mana to use, and has a MUCH higher chance of failure, until you kick -ass- at the spell.

Also, some spells shouldn't be able to use that word to cast ..fireball for one.

[Krath]

Im not going to lie, a skill like this, would scare the living shit out of my PC, if he ever found out
magickers could do something like this. Could you imagine, not being able to tell when the most
dangerous and feared people in the world could not be caught doing such things!  Awesome I like it.

[Angela Christine]

Im not going to lie, a skill like this, would scare the living shit out of my PC, if he ever found out
magickers could do something like this. Could you imagine, not being able to tell when the most
dangerous and feared people in the world could not be caught doing such things!  Awesome I like it.

But how does your PC know that they can't do this now?  I don't think that most people know that you have to stand unarmed and make a spectacle of yourself to cast a spell.  It could be that tapping his fingers on the top of the bar or fiddling with with his earring is all he needs to do to cast a spell.  Maybe all he need to do to curse you is give you the evil eye.


AC

[Krath]

Maybe all he need to do to curse you is give you the evil eye.

A new reason to fear female PCs  :shock:

[Twilight]

For coded spells, I suppose its fine.  However, I would only suppress the initial message, letting people you know you are casting.  I wouldn't suppress any following messages (if any), and I wouldn't suppress the crim code all -that- much.

You don't fear a magicker because he comes up to your face and casts a spell at you, right in front of you, right where you can hack off his head.  You fear a magicker because she sits in her temple with a lock of your hair and makes your head crumple into a putrid mass of goo as you are lying in the comfort of your crowded hovel.

The populace doesn't fear magickers because of coded spells.  The populace has no freaking clue what a coded spell is.  Almost all of them have no idea what someone casting a spell looks like.  They do know that magickers are damn dangerous, and can do weird, amazing, and destructive things.  Thats about it.

You just need to forget what you know about the code.

This includes magicker players.  I think if magicker characters used means beyond the code, ie mailing the staff with other magickal alternatives, and assuming it ever became known, you would see people fear magickers a lot more than even this skill suggestion.  But thats just IMHO.

[Akaramu]

This is the best idea since the invention of the wheel.

I'm seriously tired of people not taking my magickers seriously because they OOCly know how easily an elementalist can supposedly be killed, and how limited they supposedly are. =P

You know who you are!

[DustMight]

I like this idea as well.  Does the inspiration for it come from the Dark Sun gaming system?  I remember rules for Sorcerers to allow for this kind of undetected casting?  I always wondered why it wasn't part of the game world brought over to the online version.

[Ktavialt]

For coded spells, I suppose its fine.  However, I would only suppress the initial message, letting people you know you are casting.  I wouldn't suppress any following messages (if any), and I wouldn't suppress the crim code all -that- much.

You don't fear a magicker because he comes up to your face and casts a spell at you, right in front of you, right where you can hack off his head.  You fear a magicker because she sits in her temple with a lock of your hair and makes your head crumple into a putrid mass of goo as you are lying in the comfort of your crowded hovel.

The populace doesn't fear magickers because of coded spells.  The populace has no freaking clue what a coded spell is.  Almost all of them have no idea what someone casting a spell looks like.  They do know that magickers are damn dangerous, and can do weird, amazing, and destructive things.  Thats about it.

You just need to forget what you know about the code.

This includes magicker players.  I think if magicker characters used means beyond the code, ie mailing the staff with other magickal alternatives, and assuming it ever became known, you would see people fear magickers a lot more than even this skill suggestion.  But thats just IMHO.

In my forty-five or some such characters, I have never seen a magicker
turn anyone's head into a pile of goo, or anything even remotely close to
that. Sure, you don't know about magick as a commoner, but in order to
actually fear something, someone has to at least see -something- that's
crazy. This will let magickers actually do that something.

- Ktavialt

[Sir Diealot]

The problem, Twilight, is that without coded responces.. PCs very seldom do anything outside of that.  Also, with the spells being SO obvious..it's hard for you NOT to realize who a magicker is.. so all you have to do is hack their face off in fear/desperation/boredom ..the latter the most common now-a-days.

[Angela Christine]

Bah, you want to make mages more scary?  Then let them cast while holding a weapon, they'd still suck with weapons but at least they wouldn't suffer the unarmed penalties.  It is silly that you can render a mage helpless by having them sit down and hold a teacup.  Instead of needing both hands empty, maybe just one hand needs to be empty.


AC

[sacac]

hm.. interesting.. I could of sworn that they do this already..
hmm.. So yea, if they don't do this now, that would scare the living bajeevus out of me.

[X-D]

At one time, MANY years ago now, Magickers could cast while wielding, could do so even with both hands full. I'm even sure that the one I was running at the time had at least a little to do with the change. The difference is HUGE, specialy with well branched magickers.

No the thread topic suggestion is a better way to go I think.

Unless people really do want magickers to be frightening in that sort of in your face manner, me, I prefer the more mysterious manner.

[jstorrie]

You know, I wasn't aware of the coded limitations on spellcasting, and I kind of wish now that I hadn't seen all this.

[Agent_137]

You know, I wasn't aware of the coded limitations on spellcasting, and I kind of wish now that I hadn't seen all this.

then you should probably steer clear of any thread with "magick" in it's title.

At least in the future.

[jstorrie]

Maybe that.  Or, maybe people shouldn't discuss the details of the magick code in this forum?

[Xerokine]

For coded spells, I suppose its fine.  However, I would only suppress the initial message, letting people you know you are casting.  I wouldn't suppress any following messages (if any), and I wouldn't suppress the crim code all -that- much.

You don't fear a magicker because he comes up to your face and casts a spell at you, right in front of you, right where you can hack off his head.  You fear a magicker because she sits in her temple with a lock of your hair and makes your head crumple into a putrid mass of goo as you are lying in the comfort of your crowded hovel.

The populace doesn't fear magickers because of coded spells.  The populace has no freaking clue what a coded spell is.  Almost all of them have no idea what someone casting a spell looks like.  They do know that magickers are damn dangerous, and can do weird, amazing, and destructive things.  Thats about it.

You just need to forget what you know about the code.

This includes magicker players.  I think if magicker characters used means beyond the code, ie mailing the staff with other magickal alternatives, and assuming it ever became known, you would see people fear magickers a lot more than even this skill suggestion.  But thats just IMHO.

I'm sorry, but maybe this information so be placed in much bigger font so the rest of the players of ArmageddonMUD know this. From my perspective of playing a magicker, your not feared by nearly as many as you should. You might get the rare commoner that will actually move away or something to show he's frightened, but the rest think they are like Nobility and will get right in your face because they know OOCly you won't touch them, and if you want to take it outside the city-state they will own you because magickers can't use weapons.

[Newbie Magicker]

From my perspective of playing a magicker, your not feared by nearly as many as you should. You might get the rare commoner that will actually move away or something to show he's frightened, but the rest think they are like Nobility and will get right in your face because they know OOCly you won't touch them, and if you want to take it outside the city-state they will own you

This is so true, and this isn't just with the bad roleplayers.

I had a magicker (a while now so I hope this isn't IC, and I hope the person I'm talking about knows who they are) and I was a real in-your-face type person. I had someone bite back and it was wonderful. The person who bit back did so in a wonderful way and was really good about roleplaying the whole interaction. I went to attack the person because we were goading each other and I was furious, but I began casting a spell and the person realised I was a magicker. The roleplay from that point on was also pretty good. But afterwards the person said "oh your a magicker, I could have kicked your ass." Could the person have kicked my ass if I wasn't a magicker? Most likely, but the person became more sure of themself merely because I was a magicker.

I don't see magickers as being any different to other people. People can live a long part of their life without knowing their a magicker, they might become fighters in this time. There's no in character reason for the stereotype that magickers are poor fighters to exist in my opinion.

I think the fact that magickers can be anyone the most frightening part of them. Your next door neighbor, he could be a magicker. Your a byn sergeant, he could be a magicker, your mate could be a magicker. But with players assuming you can't be a magicker if you're a good fighter, that aspect of magickers is lost.

[X-D]

Jstorrie, Your one of them people that does not read docs untill you need something right? Nothing that has been said here about magick code so far is outside a 10 second search of the docs.

Xerokine wrote:
From my perspective of playing a magicker, your not feared by nearly as many as you should. You might get the rare commoner that will actually move away or something to show he's frightened, but the rest think they are like Nobility and will get right in your face because they know OOCly you won't touch them, and if you want to take it outside the city-state they will own you

Newbie magicker wrote:

I think the fact that magickers can be anyone the most frightening part of them. Your next door neighbor, he could be a magicker. Your a byn sergeant, he could be a magicker, your mate could be a magicker. But with players assuming you can't be a magicker if you're a good fighter, that aspect of magickers is lost

I suppose if enough people felt that way the staff might be able to be talked into removing no wield casting:) As I said, speaking as somebody who has been there, It does make a world of difference, Magickers are crazy powerful then....least ones that have been around for a little while.
Heh, and for shits and giggles, to make them downright terrifying add in this stealthy casting.

[Angela Christine]

I suppose if enough people felt that way the staff might be able to be talked into removing no wield casting:) As I said, speaking as somebody who has been there, It does make a world of difference, Magickers are crazy powerful then....least ones that have been around for a little while.

I thought part of the point of the karma system and restricting certain races and classes is that they are Not supposed to be balanced, at least not in the way a H&S would balance classes.  

For example: half-giants are fairly low on the karma pole, but a half-giant can do a tremendous amount of dammage just by standing on the road and subdue-killing anyone who walks by.  They learn slowly, which is a good balancing limitation, but half-giant warriors can be pretty good at subdue right from the start.  It will be a long time before they are good at much else, and half-giant merchants and mages have a tough row to hoe, but a newbie half-giant is not physically balanced compared to other races.

Likewise, from the documentation and the karma scale I got the impression that the magic using classes were unbalanced, which made it a lot easier for my non-mages to be afraid of them.  Sure, they get scary eventually, when they can work unseen and bury entire cities in sand, but I bet a lot of newbie mages get randomly taken out by scrabs and gortoks before they anywhere near that point.  I think that many first-time mages experience a little disapointment with their starting abilities, disapointment that can fester into cynicism.  A rampaging tregil attacks suddenly and you have just seconds to decide if you are going to flee flee flee, do your best with weapons you suck at using, or put away your dagger and try to deal with the menace magickally before the little beast tears your unarmed PC to shreds.  The unarmed combat penalties are severe. Unless the mage is somehow hidden or unreachable, many people will take a shot at hand-to-hand combat because they know that the unarmed combat penalties are nasty, and if the mage keeps his weapon out he can't cast and _still_ sucks at hand to hand combat.  An experienced mage can spank the other classes, but he still has to be prepared and choose his ground, because a surprised mage is a dead mage.  That makes it very hard on non-gemmed because they have no safe place to cast -- they pretty much have to go to the wilderness to study and the wilderness is full of things that want to engage in close combat.

Maybe there is a middle ground.  Some MUDs don't even let a mage wield weapons except knives and staves, but I always found the message that I don't know which end to hold to be silly and artificial.  Even a bookworm could figure how to hold a sword, there is a handle and a blade, if you hold the blade you cut your hands so maybe you should try the handle.  There are other ways to limit weapons, maybe they can only cast while holding weapons that were once alive (wood, bone) or weapons that were never alive (stone, glass, metal) because the other kind interferes with channeling the magick.  Ok, that wouldn't really be much of a restriction, since both dead and non-living materials are basically the same, code-wise.  A glass knife isn't more likely to break than one made of bone, wood or flint.  Or the could be resticted to weapons under, say, a cord long, because anything bigger than disrupts the magickal field around the caster and causes the spell to fizzle.  Of course that would require someone to go through all the weapons in the database and decide which ones were the right size and which were too big.  Or maybe you would have to keep your off-hand empty, so you  could not etwo, dual wield, or use a combination of a weapon and shield -- that would free you from the unarmed penalties without giving you the chance to carry a gigantic two-handed axe while casting.  I don't know.

People run into inept newbie mages, or their scrab-raveged corpses, and this gives them the mistaken idea that mages are weak and harmless.  So they stop being afraid of mages in general.  Eventually they may run into one of the rare mages that have amassed truely frightening power and become scared of mages again, but in the mean time they are stuting around thinking most mages are pimply-faced geeks that can't hurt a kank fly.  Warriors are jocks and mages are (illiterate) nerds, and everyone knows jocks beat up nerds, that's basic high-school psychology.  The idea isn't to turn mages into crazy PK monsters, but rather to do something to make people a little more worried about them OOCly, so that their characters will be realistically worried ICly.


AC

[Ktavialt]

I suppose if enough people felt that way the staff might be able to be talked into removing no wield casting:) As I said, speaking as somebody who has been there, It does make a world of difference, Magickers are crazy powerful then....least ones that have been around for a little while.

I thought part of the point of the karma system and restricting certain races and classes is that they are Not supposed to be balanced, at least not in the way a H&S would balance classes.  

For example: half-giants are fairly low on the karma pole, but a half-giant can do a tremendous amount of dammage just by standing on the road and subdue-killing anyone who walks by.  They learn slowly, which is a good balancing limitation, but half-giant warriors can be pretty good at subdue right from the start.  It will be a long time before they are good at much else, and half-giant merchants and mages have a tough row to hoe, but a newbie half-giant is not physically balanced compared to other races.

Likewise, from the documentation and the karma scale I got the impression that the magic using classes were unbalanced, which made it a lot easier for my non-mages to be afraid of them.  Sure, they get scary eventually, when they can work unseen and bury entire cities in sand, but I bet a lot of newbie mages get randomly taken out by scrabs and gortoks before they anywhere near that point.  I think that many first-time mages experience a little disapointment with their starting abilities, disapointment that can fester into cynicism.  A rampaging tregil attacks suddenly and you have just seconds to decide if you are going to flee flee flee, do your best with weapons you suck at using, or put away your dagger and try to deal with the menace magickally before the little beast tears your unarmed PC to shreds.  The unarmed combat penalties are severe. Unless the mage is somehow hidden or unreachable, many people will take a shot at hand-to-hand combat because they know that the unarmed combat penalties are nasty, and if the mage keeps his weapon out he can't cast and _still_ sucks at hand to hand combat.  An experienced mage can spank the other classes, but he still has to be prepared and choose his ground, because a surprised mage is a dead mage.  That makes it very hard on non-gemmed because they have no safe place to cast -- they pretty much have to go to the wilderness to study and the wilderness is full of things that want to engage in close combat.

Maybe there is a middle ground.  Some MUDs don't even let a mage wield weapons except knives and staves, but I always found the message that I don't know which end to hold to be silly and artificial.  Even a bookworm could figure how to hold a sword, there is a handle and a blade, if you hold the blade you cut your hands so maybe you should try the handle.  There are other ways to limit weapons, maybe they can only cast while holding weapons that were once alive (wood, bone) or weapons that were never alive (stone, glass, metal) because the other kind interferes with channeling the magick.  Ok, that wouldn't really be much of a restriction, since both dead and non-living materials are basically the same, code-wise.  A glass knife isn't more likely to break than one made of bone, wood or flint.  Or the could be resticted to weapons under, say, a cord long, because anything bigger than disrupts the magickal field around the caster and causes the spell to fizzle.  Of course that would require someone to go through all the weapons in the database and decide which ones were the right size and which were too big.  Or maybe you would have to keep your off-hand empty, so you  could not etwo, dual wield, or use a combination of a weapon and shield -- that would free you from the unarmed penalties without giving you the chance to carry a gigantic two-handed axe while casting.  I don't know.

People run into inept newbie mages, or their scrab-raveged corpses, and this gives them the mistaken idea that mages are weak and harmless.  So they stop being afraid of mages in general.  Eventually they may run into one of the rare mages that have amassed truely frightening power and become scared of mages again, but in the mean time they are stuting around thinking most mages are pimply-faced geeks that can't hurt a kank fly.  Warriors are jocks and mages are (illiterate) nerds, and everyone knows jocks beat up nerds, that's basic high-school psychology.  The idea isn't to turn mages into crazy PK monsters, but rather to do something to make people a little more worried about them OOCly, so that their characters will be realistically worried ICly.


AC

Wow. Well put.

[Uglyhead]

I've encountered skills like this in other MUDs. In one it was called 'concentration' or something, so you could cast the spell without having to say the magic words for it. If you were some invisible assasin-mage guy you could get the drop on people better than if you just started shouting "Hocus pocus!" letting everyone know you're there and giving them time to clear out. It was kinda neat.

But anyway, a skill like that in Arm would, I believe, make magic a greater and more interesting force in the game. As it stands, The only magicker I ever tangled with was this one gemmed goober I tried to mug for a few 'sids. BIG mistake. This skill in the hands of ungemmed defilers would help keep me even more paranoid, which, in Armageddon, is good!

[jstorrie]

Jstorrie, Your one of them people that does not read docs untill you need something right? Nothing that has been said here about magick code so far is outside a 10 second search of the docs.

Where?  I searched the docs for more than ten seconds and couldn't come up with anything about it.

[Ktavialt]

Where?  I searched the docs for more than ten seconds and couldn't come up with anything about it.

Oh please... fine fine... 'general information', 'magick' under 'casting'.

"Note that the 'cast' command incurs a delay for casting time. This delay
decreases in direct proportion to your skill in the spell."

Okay okay... so maybe they didn't quite say exactly "First there's going to
be a message to everyone in the room saying you are about to cast." but
they sure add a lot more IC-ish information such as the element names,
the words of power, and so on and so forth. Arrrggh damn those IMM's
for all that IC information... damn them all to hell!!!

Starting to think your complaint's a little flimsy yet?

- Ktavialt

[jstorrie]

Starting to think your complaint's a little flimsy yet?

No.

Among the things I found out through this thread, but didn't know beforehand (and wouldn't, from the documentation):

- What the echo for a spell being cast looks like.
- Casters can't wield and cast at the same time.
- Casters can't even hold a mug and cast at the same time.
- Magick effects on players are apparently all incredibly obvious, so I don't have to feel suspicious about characters who don't have obvious visual magick effects going on.

These are important specifics that I did not beforehand, and would rather not have known.  I don't feel this complaint is 'flimsy' at all.

[Delirium]

- Magick effects on players are apparently all incredibly obvious, so I don't have to feel suspicious about characters who don't have obvious visual magick effects going on.

Hardly.

[adgohan]

The unfortunate fallout of removing casting with weapons was that a magicker lost any sort of defense bonus. It is not having much to do with the fact that they don't get combat skills.

I'm all for giving magickers the ability to wield weapons. I would at least think it's reasonable to to give them the ability to hold a shield. In every book, movie, and mythos I've ever read or seen, a mage is able to wield weapons or hold something while casting. Dalamar, Gandalf, Raistlin, hell, role a D&D mage up and give him a staff. I can understand the reasons it was taken away, but it imbalanced magickers so significantly that there is no real reason to fear them anymore. This is coming from a person who plays strictly elementalists - not because of their power, but because it is a very fun, imaginative and amazing system in the right role playing atmosphere. If I wanted to be powerful I'd play strictly rangers.

[Sir Diealot]

jstorrie... ugh.. it's common sense, as this is code discussion, we would be discussing the CODED ASPECTS of MAGICKERS in this thread ENTITLED - Idea To Spur Magicker Hatred - ..You and your kind are the reason for warning labels like 'caution, coffee is hot' or 'WARNING! BROWNIES CONTAIN CHOCOLATE'.

[X-D]

On further review of past arm and current arm, I personaly think that the probable reasons for magickers being able to wield and cast being removed no longer apply. I think the current mud can support it.

Specialy when you consider new crim code, new soldier/templar scripts
A few other things I can't mention here plus some things like combat negs for being outnumbered...I think allowing magickers to wield/hold at least a single item while casting would go a LONG way towards making them mmore feared...specialy if a skill was added making it so they could mask thier casting.

[Lazloth]

After tweaking one or two spells, my vote would be to allow.

[Vettrock]

Perhaps another idea would be to make it skill in the spell dependant.  If you are very skilled at casting wave of sauce, you could do it wielding a weapon, or maybe you could do it more discretely?

[Sir Diealot]

That was my idea Vet.. Once you got good enough in the spell you could use a word similar to 'nil' to cast is quietly, but with effect.

[Dan]

Something just came to me, why not switch the delay on spells? Not as cool as the other suggestions but I think if you casted right after typing in your spell it would go a long way towards making magickers more feared. Thoughts?

[Sir Diealot]

I like that too..but then we'll get cries of TWINK!..

Because, I mean.. the second most feared and hated thing on the planet shouldn't really have any reason behind it.. It should easily be killed by a 10 day warrior with a training knife.

[Dan]

I don't exactly understand what that meant Sir Diealot.

[Sir Diealot]

If it was cast faster.. People would say it overpowered magickers..

I was making a snide comment about how it would be ok to power-up magickers..  

Because I agree with you, it -should- be cast faster..Magickers are vastly underpowered, even experienced ones, as it is..

[Carnage]

I don't exactly understand what that meant Sir Diealot.

I think he was being facetious and pointing out how easily magickers are killed, despite how feared and powerful they are supposed to be.

[Dan]

Got it now, thanks. Sarcasm is lost on me when it comes to reading it.

Anyway, they might not be overpowered. They will still have the same delay, only after the spell is cast and not before. Like recovery from exertion? I would think Sorcerors could keep the delay before though, since their magick is learned and not necessarily inborn. Creating a need to prepare their magick rather than an outright release of their elemental powers which might call for a moment to steady yourself to do it again. Just a few thoughts.

[Vettrock]

Something just came to me, why not switch the delay on spells? Not as cool as the other suggestions but I think if you casted right after typing in your spell it would go a long way towards making magickers more feared. Thoughts?

Delay:
  After, corresponds directly with proficiency in casting the spell.

and...

Note that the 'cast' command incurs a delay for casting time. This delay decreases in direct proportion to your skill in the spell.

So if you are more skilled at a spell the casting delay will be shorter.

[wizturbo]

I think the delay should remain as is.  However the ability to cast a spell silently (as in no room echos screaming hey I'm a magicker) is something i'm strongly in support of.  Make it be more taxing to cast, longer to cast, outright more difficult...whatever...but magickers shouldn't be so easily found.  Other magickers and templars should have at some point the ability to spot a 'silent spell' to keep things balanced, and not ALL spells should be able to be cast silently.

Thats just my opinion on this.

[X-D]

I think only "curse" style spells and maybe "blessing" style spells should have a silent cast.

That would be truly sweet.

scast 'curse of moldy purple spots' assumed elf thief

The tall figure in a black cloak suddenly bends over and retches.

Mold like purple spots start forming on all of the tall figure in a black cloak's exposed flesh.

think That will teach him.

[cyberpatrol_735]

I was running through some old posts.. and I found this, I like it, and I'd like to see this implemented. I'm all for it, as are many of the players who posted on it. So ...

*bump*

And really, considerably thinking, it isn't hard to code, you add a new keyword and a new effect, instead of say.. full_cast and no_cast, you would have a function called silent_cast and it would do a check for the silent_cast flag to see if it would work, thus going with the rest of the magick code.

Easy to do, amazing results, lets do it.

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

AC made a good post back there, about how underpowered magickers are. The first magicker pc death/fight I seen, took place and finished say in less than 5s, there could be a bit of lag, but it went, slash hard on his neck *7 times. And the poor guy is on the ground. He was pickin up a lot of things though. I was thinking the guy with me was like..brutal and very powerful. Then a few days later, I found his corpse as well.  :shock:

But this code might just be the one that brings back more fear in a magicker, not that I'm not afraid of them, I met my first one who blew my first pc a lot of leagues away from anyplace.

Unless you want the magickers to keep killing people blatantly out in the wilds, to get that fear back.

[Dracul]

Now Im currently playing a magicker character so I could be slightly biased (but I generally dont play them, and soon enough this one will die of course)

But I really like the idea...with the added notations people have mentioned. In such...I wont add too much.

Just Support.

[cyberpatrol_735]

If I might say.. staff.. The players have spoken

[Xamminy]

...so?

They'll do it when and if they decide it is doable, as well as how.

The staff knows the players have spoken.

[moab]

Way to make the players feel like they are contributing, Xamminy.

I would point out that a lot of good ideas come from the player base and soliciting immortal opinion after player discussion isn't a bad thing.

[Xamminy]

Oh, I'm not trying to make someone feel bad...but at the same time, cyberpatrol sounded as if there was something unsaid about it along the lines of, "...so implement it."  Having been on the staff side of things, I can say that that attitude does rankle.

Also, there are so many things that could or rather should be done before adding new things to the game (which this would count as).  Not to say I don't think this would be a great addition, as I do think it would be a wonderful thing.  I just don't know if we should do it now, and I don't think someone should be poking at the staff, effectively saying, "We want this, so make it happen," or something that suggests that sort of message.

[moab]

X>
You know, after I thought about the series of posts a bit longer, I figured that Cyber's could have been worded a bit differently.  I see your point.

[Xamminy]

It's all good, moab.  No hard feelings here.

[Rhyden]

Man, flamming an imm on the GDB? Somebody's gonna be slayed for this.  :shock:

Back to topic: I think this idea would be sweet, but I don't think it would be able to happen in a city without any justice done. The guard of both cities is so ruthless and determined, that the soldiers would probably just take everybody in to jail and prick and prod them to find the magicker.

[Dracul]

Well I got some hard feelins here.

What about THOSE?


huh...

err...

[Angela Christine]

Back to topic: I think this idea would be sweet, but I don't think it would be able to happen in a city without any justice done. The guard of both cities is so ruthless and determined, that the soldiers would probably just take everybody in to jail and prick and prod them to find the magicker.

I believe they would have the same problems as psoinicists or sorcerers.  The resident sorcerer-king and his lackeys scan the airwaves looking for a certain kind of magickal ripple where no ripple should be.  Perhaps even certain kinds of thoughts.  Like and FBI watch list for words that may indicate a message by enemies of the state, except psychic.


AC

[cyberpatrol_735]

Whoops.. yeah that was bad wording.. I just meant that overall, it looks like the players support it if the imms are willing to implement it for us

[DrunkenSalarr]

While I love this idea, I have one question:

Who's to say it isn't already implemented?  This could already be possible, but it's something only a select few, or perhaps no one (living that is), knows right now.  It could be scrawlled in some ancient book on how to do it.  Or maybe a certain item or items allows you to do it.

Basically, this may already be possible, and no one has brought it up because of IC sensitivity.

I'm not saying it is possible, and I'm not saying it's not.  What I am saying though, is treat this like you treat the rest of the in game world when it comes to code limitations, treat it like it is possible.  If you think you should be able to do something, and you can't, maybe you might be able to get some by wishing on a star.

"why is it that whenever I cast an 'un' spell everyone knows, I want to do it silently! *whine*"  It may be that there are other reaches and you don't know about them, and neither does anyone you know (or at least no one has told you).  

It's kind of like "why is it that whenever I shoot a gun, everyone around me hears it, I want to do it silently! *whine*"  Just because you've never heard of, nor seen a silencer, doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Anonymous]

Are you saying that silencers exist?!

This would make my assassination jobs much easier.

Sa'alam,

Dirr