How to get players involved

[My 2 sids]

I would think that a lot of players and staff would like to see a more player-driven economy and player-driven plots.  What I'd like to know are what are some ideas on how to get to a more player-driven economy and boost our player-driven plots.  

Personally, I feel that in order for a more player-driven game PCs need to have more interactions with each other and opportunities that would allow more interactions.  To me it just feels the player base is very spread out and I think if we can bring them together more (and still provide a large diversity of roles for characters) we can have a lot more meaningful interaction between PCs.

[Armaddict]

This was discussed recently, and I believe there was a poll attached.  Someone post the link.

Anyone else noticing a shitload of repetitive posts?

[sjanimal]

As far as stimulating the "player-driven" economy, the best idea I have seen so far is to reduce what you are able to buy and sell from NPCs.  Sadly, this would have the very terrible consequence of making many items unavailable, because taking bows as an example...if only three people actively play bow-making characters, but they live in different citites or have different playing times, it turns into a terrible head-ache.

Perhaps a more moderated approach that has worked well for me is...if I need something, I try to buy it from PCs first.  If I can't get a PC to sell me something for like a half hour, I just buy it from an NPC or VNPC.

As far as creating player driven plots (by far, the cooler type), I seem to have had some small amount of success at this as well.  Here is what has worked for me.  Take buying a bow as an example.

Bob the dwarf tells Joe the traveller,

"Excuse me, Joe, I can't help but notice that you seem well travelled.  I would like to hire you to go to the far off city of Allanak, and buy a bow for me.  I shall pay you four small for the bow, and three small for your troubles."

You probably noticed a few things about that example.  For one, wouldn't it just be easier to ride to Allanak and buy the bow yourself?  But that's where the skill and maturity come in, because a large part of creating plots for me has been to be able to sit back and wait while your minions go to work.

Another thing you've probably noticed is that it seems to cost a lot to hire people to do things for you.  And that's the God-honest truth.  Stimulating plots has been very expensive and time consuming to me, but ultimately worth it.  I've had to do quite a bit of foraging, crafting and trading to support the plots I created, but that's just what I had to do.

The third thing you are probably noticing is...buying a bow is kind of a pointless, boring plot, right?  But very often, the sub plots that develop are far more interesting than the original plot, anyways.  And if you come up with ideas for more in depth plots, you will discover that the sky and your imagination are the only limits.

[sjanimal]

By the way,

If you would like to make a couple of characters together sometime, with the idea that we would create and stimulate lots of neat little plots and boost the economy, please please message me bud, I like your idea.

[Anonymous]

A player-driven economy is just not possible, currently.  Why?

> inventory

You are carrying:
Several scrab shells

> contact kadian_merchant
You are unable to contact

> contact salarri_merchant
You are unable to contact

> contact indy_merchant
You are unable to contact

If the Nenyuk bank held items for free, then there might be a greater chance for PC->PC selling of raw materials and crafted items.

Instead people sell items quickly because the only alternatives are being weighed down or putting them in a location that can and most likely will be broken into.

I'd love to see Nenyuk offer free storage services for people with a bank account balance over a certain amount as a way to spur on the economy.

[My 2 sids]

I'd love to see Nenyuk offer free storage services for people with a bank account balance over a certain amount as a way to spur on the economy.

I like this idea too.  Not everyone can afford to rent an apartment,  and apartments should be used for more than just "storage" anyhow.  Even if not for free, the idea of selling lockable lockers (maybe the size of a trunk) I think would work well.  If not Nenyuk, perhaps the taverns would provide such a service for a small fee.

[Armaddict]

There's no reason for Nenyuk to provide these services for free.  They are the only ones who can offer them.  Therefore, that allows them to make all the money they want.  It's not capitalism.  There is no competition.  They don't have to give you 'throw-ins' on a deal, nor negotiate prices for their services.

If you want to use the services, you pay for them.  It's the way things are.

[marko]

I think people just need more ideas on what they can do.

I do not like the idea of less NPC merchants - as I don't think that will do anything to increase interaction.  It may increase the Merchant interaction with PCs (although I suspect otherwise for the reason that CRW posted) but it won't do anything for the rest of the game population.  So, while it may impact what?  Assuming two PC merchants per house per city and an extra for the "outposts" - so 15 PCs - that leaves the rest of the PCs.

Anyway - I think people just need to learn how to involve others in quick, simple, and easy tasks.  

Merchants can continually demand exotic hides, herbs, wood, or any material.  These tasks should be done repetively (albiet a different one each time) and given to the House employees.  If there aren't enough House employees - hire outside the House for the specific task.  And if you can't find any indies - hire the Byn.  That's what they are there for.

I believe a Merchant House should be sending their men out in groups at least daily.  But then, that's my belief.  Shared experiences make for good interaction.  If the task is simple and completeable within an hour (at most two) you have something that is enjoyable and people will log in regularly just to participate.  Especially if there is recognition.

So, what about the Noble Houses?

Noble Houses -  Each noble House has a sphere of influence.  As such, I feel that there should be at least a weekly event revolving around whatever the Noble House "owns."  It may take a bit of imagination for certain Houses but it would help the players in the House understand that what their House actually does.

What about an independant - Form up regular trips.  If you are a hunter, get together with other hunters.  If you are a merchant - hire some people to escort you from one place to the other.  Travel regularly.

For those within the cities and who don't ever leave - find other mediums to explore.  For example, card games are actually quite entertaining.  A regularly scheduled game goes a long way to getting people to log in more often.  

Short events are the most enjoyable.  Simple events are easy to plan since they can be done on the spur of the moment.  If a clan has at least three people online, then I say, do something together.

[Avril]

Depends on what kinds of interaction have been done to death, and what kinds are yet to be filled in... You see a lot of tavern chatter, for instance, but not a lot of spectating. It gets old role-playing how you enjoy the show (or not), especially since there's no real interaction between performer and spectator. You might glean a lot about a person's character from how he reacts to a show, but if there's no one to actually react, that opportunity is lost.

Here's what I propose...
*More player performances at the Barrel, the Sanctuary and every other establishment that hires performers of any sort. I'm talking about codedly doing things to support these performances, like giving entertainer PCs the option to disable certain room echoes. Right now, PC shows only take place in the main rooms, and have to squeeze their way between mountains of ugly spam.

*More needs and desires. Don't just rest when you're wounded - hire a physican whenever you can. Break your tools. Tear that dress. Shatter your 10-year-old weapon. Drop some items when you run away from that mekillot. Have sex with PC whores. Above all, figure out what your PC would want, and try to see how he could get it through the help of other PCs.

*Non-coded fights. If you want to knock someone's teeth out in a crowded bar and start some heavy "interaction", feel free to use the touch command or work it out through pure RP.

*Don't go out into the desert on your own if you can avoid it. It's bad for your health, and once you die, the other hunter in your city will have to go out on his own as well.

*If your character's the pious type, Preach some opinions of his, nevermind how ridiculous they are. A "philosophical talk" at the local tavern is about as exciting as a barfight, sometimes even more than that.

*When you're a burglar or assassin, leave opportunities for decent investigations to take place. This can create some interesting plots, and I can see it being perfectly intentional.

Anyone else noticing a shitload of repetitive posts?

If it helps, I've seen a lot of little complaints lately.
I doubt many people, especially newbies, would be raising old posts from the dead, no matter how interested they were in replying and no matter how long they pilfered through the old GDB posts. Besides, opinions change in time, whether anyone would like to admit it or not. A thread like this would be a snapshot of ideas and popular opinion, rather than some mighty tablet of divine laws.

people sell items quickly because the only alternatives are being weighed down or putting them in a location that can and most likely will be broken into.

At this point, you can do three things: relax and wait for the buyers to show up, figure out how your character can realistically make use of his inventory without selling it, or get moderately rich selling craploads of hides for obscenely low prices. Unless you happen to be starving, I'd say just ignore the "final option" and wait. Also, as a PC, you're probably being far more successful working on comission. Tell everyone about what a great swordcrafter you are, wait until there's a demand, then accept whatever requests come your way. Unfortunately, unless it's obsidian swords you're making, the only people to ever need your items would be newbies, who coincidentally don't know anything about you (unless you advertised on the city boards, which is the last place they'd look).

If I played a crafter, I'd probably rely on a complicated economic system of favors, information and alternative goods instead of plain old coins. All coins ever do is dilute the whole trading affair, whether you're a buyer or a seller. So, I say, try to use alternatives to coins as much as you can get away with, and pretty soon, you'll have more interaction than you'd ever want (believe me).

[X-D]

*Non-coded fights. If you want to knock someone's teeth out in a crowded bar and start some heavy "interaction", feel free to use the touch command or work it out through pure RP.

Unless they put it back in and I missed it, there is no "touch" command any more.

If I played a crafter, I'd probably rely on a complicated economic system of favors, information and alternative goods instead of plain old coins. All coins ever do is dilute the whole trading affair, whether you're a buyer or a seller. So, I say, try to use alternatives to coins as much as you can get away with, and pretty soon, you'll have more interaction than you'd ever want (believe me).

I'd like to back that idea up, I've done it quite a bit, loads of fun for everybody.

[da mitey warrior]

You want more interaction and a more player-driven economy? Here's what we should do.  (Items 2 through 4 have been discussed before, so I'll just go over in brief)

1) Get rid of Imm money.

As far as I know every single clan in the game is dependent on staff members loading money into their clan bank accounts, or giving money to directly to the leader PCs to keep the PC portion of each clan economically afloat.   Imm money is like welfare.  It makes life easier for people, but it also discorages getting off their butts and doing some work.  

Every clan in the game should force their pcs to either make their own money, or to turn a profit and give money back to the clan.   Templars should live on bribes and gifts.  Merchant houses should hire crafters and dust off their wagons and do some caravaning.  Leader PCs should be leaned on to actually use the T'zai Byn instead of hiring piles of guard pcs.

2) Burglar resistant PC housing.

We all know that every PC appartment gets broken into 5 times per day.   Create tenant clans and put guards at the gates of appartment buildings.  It won't make burglary impossible,  but will make it hard enough that it won't be common.  This both lets people spend money decorating their appartments, and lets them store stuff.

3) Bland shop Items

Restrict shops to blander items.   The shop might just sell a bone longsword, but if you want a leaf-carved bone longsword you'll need to find a pc crafter, and if you want a dragon-runed bejeweled cutlass you'll need to go to a pc merchant.

4) Wear and tear

Stuff should wear out.   It doesn't have to be dramatic, but if a hunter has to buy a new spear every 10 days of playing time or so, it would force people spend their money. Especially with obsidian items, since obsidian is supposed to be brittle.  Big obsidian weapons can last for ic decades as it stands now.  Non-shield armor should wear down as well.

[Anonymous]

I hate change!

It's a sound business move on Nenyuk's part to offer incentives to people to keep more money in the bank since, presumably, they put that money to use.  A cheaper method of storage is key to a player-driven economy.  Right now the 100 sid fee makes storing a load of hides, shells or crafted items to wait for a PC not economically viable.  Even a lower fee for storage would help.

Nenyuk offering some sort of storage would help offset the fact that burglary is so pervasive.  In realistic terms, in a city as large as Allanak or Tuluk your apartment/home wouldn't be broken into nearly as often because the number of burglars would not be proportionate to the number of homes to be broken into.  I'd guess that there are maybe 20 or 30 IC apartments in Allanak off the top of my head.  Maybe more or less I'm just going on what I've seen.  That's not a high proportion compared to burglars.  If there were 100,000 apartments and homes, then statistically you'd be seeing a lot fewer break-ins.

The point isn't to rail against burglars, just to point out that apartments don't aid in the player economy as much as they could and as such storage becomes an issue.

I may be in the minority, but I'd wait a RL week to do a trade with a PC if it didn't cost me 100 sid in the process.  As it stands now my hunter/gatherer PCs go the NPC merchant route, as I imagine other folks do as well.

[Lazloth]

1) Get rid of Imm money.

Then you get rid of anything virtual regarding the clan.  Three crafters become the extent of Salarr, sitting and spamcrafting spearheads so there's money to pay guards for the week?  The two Kuraci players who know how to get 8k per boot just pulling from the land should give that clan that much of a lift?  House Elders become a novelty?

2) Burglar resistant PC housing.

Talk to a Nenyuk, hunt around ingame.  Some spots are certainly safer than others.

Create tenant clans and put guards at the gates of appartment buildings.

Why would a tenement ("a rundown apartment house barely meeting minimal standards") employ guards?

3) Bland shop Items
4) Wear and tear

Agreed.

[Nidhogg]

I am just not right there with you guys. When I play, I do still play, I do not want to sit around crafting things to make sid to eat, for five game hours out of every day. I do not want a player run economy. I might want a more complex imm run economy, but that's another story. It might however, be interesting to have a hybrid. A player effected economy.

I do not want to make anything burglar proof. If everything is burglar proof, why have burglars?

[sacac]

I love the Nenyuk locker idea, because if you die, then who gets to sell your stuff? Who makes you pay to keep your items safe? Nenyuk can't lose.

[Ghost]

I do not want to make anything burglar proof. If everything is burglar proof, why have burglars?

Agreed.

But to derail the topic, I must say it is too easy to make a happy life with a burglar character.  I knew a burglar who could make around 10k within three RL days.  This is a ridiculously big number, and the guy had nearly no risk.  He -never- got into the jail because of breaking into the houses.  Not being "wanted" when breaking into houses, and pick skill's being a very easy skill to practice and develop, in my opinion, gives burglars an unfair advantage over the other criminal types.
So not burglar proof, but it could be better if burglars could enjoy some difficulties in their dirty business.
[/derailment]

[Gaare]

There is my humbe opinion:

Let's assume House K gets a special order from person C.

House K had to collect some materials for that Order IG.

If that would a be a must for each order, I am sure there would be much more interaction and the economy would more driven by PCs...


I know that would be hard for many metarials.. but I had plaied in some merchant clans, and I must say I rarely collect some items for orders... If a house can not handle that IG, then an indepented merchant would probably make a better one...

[Cenghiz]

I just want to know. Would Nenyuk offer safer places if an average joe accepted to pay; let's say 4000 'sids per year?
That amount is not impossible for a good 10 day old hunter/crafter. But still, I'd like my home to be broken into by only 10 day old burglars. Ghost's right. Even a novice burglar is able to break into %50 of the apartments.
I don't want to be invulnerable but I'd like to be less vulnerable.
AFAIK crimflag possibility dice can be arranged for rooms. With 'safer' I mean, a more complex lock and VNPC guards wandering in that street making it more dangerous to break in in that street. Not a NPC guard standing still in front of my door "guard"ing the door's direction. (Still I would like such NPC but it wouldn't be nice for burglar chars )

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

From my personal experience in Allanak:

There is a set of houses that is essentially burglar-proof (a few of these are accessable to an excellent lockpicker, the rest are more or less unpickable).

There is a set of houses that any joe-shmoe with a lockpick can break into.  

Most houses that PCs buy are in the latter category, that's why people think there aren't any good houses available, I guess.  But, those houses are supposed to be easy to break into--you wouldn't put a good lock on a crappy apartment.  People are constantly asking the Nenyuk to improve the lock on their apartment, and I can understand why, but it really would be sad to see an entire city full of unpickable apartments.

It's a tricky problem.  Some things that would help:

If burglars self-limited the number of houses they broke into, and didn't break into the same house constantly day after day.

If there were more houses to break into.

If there were more good houses available.

If there was more furniture nailed to the floor in these crappy apartments (i.e. unstealable).

If burglars were possible to catch.  Picking a lock and dragging out a cabinet in broad daylight should provoke some sort of response from nearby people and soldiers, don't you think?  I wonder how you could code this so houses would be possible to break into, but that it was also possible to be caught.

[jhunter]

I wonder how you could code this so houses would be possible to break into, but that it was also possible to be caught.

It doesn't need to be coded, I've noticed that alot of people tend to use their places as storage more than anything, they rarely spend time there and rarely invite guests over and things like that.
If they did, they'd be there more often and have a better chance at catching the burglars themselves.

[spawnloser]

Oh, and then there are those people that do spend time in their apartment and have people over...they log out in the apartment, log back in a few hours later and everything's gone.  I know that has happened a couple times.  I know three people that, between them, were staking out a place to catch a burglar...they never did...but the burglar came in and took stuff when they weren't around.  They didn't leave the place for two full days RL...and the place still got stolen from.  The burglar just wasn't hitting them while they were logged in.  It happens.  Still, there should be more VNPC action going on in the halls of those apartments and a higher chance to be crimflagged when picking locks...period.

[Anonymous]

I know three people that, between them, were staking out a place to catch a burglar...they never did...but the burglar came in and took stuff when they weren't around.

Which is why I always wished for a way to bar your doors from the inside but with some way for them to be loudly knocked down.  That way if someone is going to rob your apartment you either have to be out and about in town or having a sleep over.

The 5am EST burglary 'tactic' sucks ass.

[Agent_137]

There's no reason for Nenyuk to provide these services for free. They are the only ones who can offer them. Therefore, that allows them to make all the money they want. It's not capitalism. There is no competition. They don't have to give you 'throw-ins' on a deal, nor negotiate prices for their services.

If you want to use the services, you pay for them. It's the way things are.

While they have no competition, on one hand, they still have to deal with basic economics on the other.

If people can't afford to use their services, they -won't-. Controlling the price on something doesn't mean you should jack it up sky high and make millions. You have to pay attention to the elasticity of demand, still. Storage space is pretty elastic. People may -want- it, but they most often don't -need- it. So if you lower the price, you'll get a lot more people using it.