Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Riev on January 16, 2017, 10:32:07 AM

Title: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 16, 2017, 10:32:07 AM
January 16th, 2017 release notes (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg975905.html#msg975905)

I'm real interested to see the tablet/vial workup change. The color addition was quite a while ago, and this looks like its really going to make things "easier" to deal with. Now if only we knew what half the cures did!

Also, dyeing for items! While I know I still can't wear my hot pink and purple scrab shell, this is also great!

Keep up the excellent work, coders! Really good stuff!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on January 16, 2017, 10:40:40 AM

I'm really excited to see where this goes. Like with other crafting?

For instance, craft a bone saber and a diamond ... You set a diamond in the pommel of a bone saber.

>look saber
A diamond-set bone saber has a diamond set in the pommel.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Feco on January 16, 2017, 10:40:53 AM
Fuck yeah.

That is all.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 16, 2017, 10:42:33 AM
It sure SOUNDS like recipes will have maybe a dynamic slot in them... so particular swords COULD accept a "gemstone" type and be a "diamond-pommelled sword" or a "sapphire-pommelled sword". Which would be rockstar in itself.

But to add it to other crafts, or have someone say "I want to be dressed in White and Gold for this event" and someone being able to ACTUALLY make white and gold and trim and everything without needing to know the recipe for that one dress... oh man.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: manipura on January 16, 2017, 10:53:12 AM
Is there still no way to dye something brown?  Brown has always been so underrepresented.

Really, if you are using colours/dyes that don't mix to create another shade, it's more likely that they'll be making brown than grey. 

I think these changes are pretty great though and despite my nitpicking above, I look forward to seeing the changes in game. :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: WithSprinkles on January 16, 2017, 10:55:20 AM
There's brown dye in game. I forget where to get it, though.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pale Horse on January 16, 2017, 11:09:14 AM
Kagor race added.

Karma level 7, I assume?  Still not as codedly OP as Vestric.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LauraMars on January 16, 2017, 11:13:15 AM
CRAFTING =

(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on January 16, 2017, 11:14:05 AM
http://armageddon.org/help/view/kagor
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Feco on January 16, 2017, 11:23:37 AM
Krath-damned sand badgers.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: SuchDragonWow on January 16, 2017, 01:05:52 PM
I'm confused about the archery change.  Is that still a skill?  Or will there be four new skills in its place?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 16, 2017, 01:06:55 PM
I'm confused about the archery change.  Is that still a skill?  Or will there be four new skills in its place?

The archery skill exists as it did before.

We have added 3 new skills
  crossbow use
  sling use
  blowgun use
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 16, 2017, 01:08:41 PM
Meaning (I assume) that learning to shoot a bow has -less- bearing on learning how to shoot a crossbow. Archery skill is over all of them, but if you learn how to shoot with a slingshot, you won't have as much skill as if you learned to shoot with a bow.

Which I like.

If not. Boo.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: SuchDragonWow on January 16, 2017, 01:08:58 PM
Cool, thanks.  I'm psyched about blowguns and poisoned darts.   8) 8)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: SuchDragonWow on January 16, 2017, 01:09:50 PM
Meaning (I assume) that learning to shoot a bow has -nearly- no bearing on learning how to shoot a crossbow. Archery skill is over all of them, but if you learn how to shoot with a slingshot, you won't have as much skill as if you learned to shoot with a bow.

Which I like.

If not. Boo.

He just said there are 3 new skills.  Archery is shooting a bow.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 16, 2017, 01:11:15 PM
Ooh, even better.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: SuchDragonWow on January 16, 2017, 01:13:29 PM
Yeah, I'm digging it.  I hope crossbows are legit at close range, now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 16, 2017, 01:14:26 PM
Yeah, I'm digging it.  I hope crossbows are legit at close range, now.

At LEAST with no lag after shooting, you can pop someone and take off if need be. Or Shoot and Drop, pull out three more hand crossbows and go on a rampage ;)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nauta on January 16, 2017, 01:16:44 PM
Awesome changes!  Thank you for the work!

Question on this:
Quote
-The DB and items saved into the game have been updated for shootable weapons and their ammo.  Items on your characters have not.  If your shootable weapon or its ammo are not working correctly wish up for a new version of the item(s)

1. If I have a quiver with a bunch of arrows in them over my shoulder, should I assume these will not work?

2. Can I just leave the quiver in the room and type 'save' to get them to reset instead of wishing up?  Or is wishing up the only route?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on January 16, 2017, 02:14:25 PM
Items (bows/slings/crossbows/bolts/arrows/sling bullets) should all be updating as they go along. If you notice anything odd, wish up and we'll take a look.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on January 16, 2017, 03:05:23 PM
Are the new Archery, sling use ect. skills hidden or will they be on our skill list?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on January 16, 2017, 04:43:28 PM
Krath-damned sand badgers.

So what if you're 8x his size and likely to kill him in a single hit?  Sand badger don't care.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 16, 2017, 05:18:36 PM
I thought that kagor page already existed?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on January 16, 2017, 05:20:54 PM
I thought that kagor page already existed?

Me too.  I think for those of us that aren't city dwellers we see them frequently anyway.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Reiloth on January 16, 2017, 05:45:29 PM
I think maybe they weren't a coded separate race before.

Will different guilds/sub guilds have access to different strains of archery? I.E., bounty hunter gets crossbow, burglar sling, etc.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on January 16, 2017, 06:15:56 PM
Are the new Archery, sling use ect. skills hidden or will they be on our skill list?

I'm really interested in the answer to this. And does the fletchery skill govern the ability to make all of the types of ammo and weapons, or are their associated sling making, blowgun crafting skills? Should I expect to see these skills on my skill list if I previously had archery?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on January 16, 2017, 06:27:50 PM
Reiloth has the right of it re: kagor. You should see minimal change on the race on your side, it was mainly for our purposes (though the skinfile for them and anakore was also updated). The only real change you might notice is their tracks no longer resemble tregil tracks.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on January 16, 2017, 06:32:55 PM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on January 16, 2017, 07:52:51 PM
I'm loving how such a massive change just gets dropped like that. No half a year announcement, no hints, no blogs. Makes me wonder what kinds of wonders they've got cooking on ... ooph ... everything else.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on January 16, 2017, 08:33:53 PM
I'm loving how such a massive change just gets dropped like that. No half a year announcement, no hints, no blogs. Makes me wonder what kinds of wonders they've got cooking on ... ooph ... everything else.

*wiggles eyebrows*
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 16, 2017, 10:18:57 PM
The four skills ('archery', 'blowgun use', 'crossbow use', 'sling use'), should start appearing on guild/subguild trees as the week goes on.

There's code in place (for decades) that ensures any skills that appear on your character's guild/subguild tree that your character doesn't currently have get added at login.

With regards to crafting for arrows, bullets, darts, and bolts - nothing has changed, there.   Bullets can still be foraged/crafted while arrows/bolts/darts can still be crafted off of fletchery.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on January 16, 2017, 10:28:25 PM

Did slings get boosted any or are they still kind of gimpy?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Reiloth on January 16, 2017, 10:38:06 PM
The four skills ('archery', 'blowgun use', 'crossbow use', 'sling use'), should start appearing on guild/subguild trees as the week goes on.

There's code in place (for decades) that ensures any skills that appear on your character's guild/subguild tree that your character doesn't currently have get added at login.

With regards to crafting for arrows, bullets, darts, and bolts - nothing has changed, there.   Bullets can still be foraged/crafted while arrows/bolts/darts can still be crafted off of fletchery.

Will the helpfiles be updated to let us know which guild/subguild gets which skill? Or can you info dump here? Or both?

Thanks Nessalin and Nathvaan for all the hard work. Truly impressive, you are what make this game dynamic and reactive and constantly competing with even the strongest multi-thousand/million dollar games out there.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ChibiTama on January 17, 2017, 01:55:07 AM
Are these already in effect? I just tried the whole craft thing with usual cure ingredients and it just didn't work.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ChibiTama on January 17, 2017, 02:04:54 AM
I also happened to notice that brew is no longer able to produce candles as it was once able. The recipes seem to be completely gone now. Is this intended?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on January 17, 2017, 06:08:26 AM
I also happened to notice that brew is no longer able to produce candles as it was once able. The recipes seem to be completely gone now. Is this intended?

I have tested a few candles and they seem to work just fine.  I think this is likely a one off issue.  Can you please open up a request with logs of what you are trying and we will be glad to have a look.

Are these already in effect? I just tried the whole craft thing with usual cure ingredients and it just didn't work.

Yes, this is already in effect.  Please include specific logs in the request about this as well. We can look at both things at once.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on January 17, 2017, 06:22:40 AM
The four skills ('archery', 'blowgun use', 'crossbow use', 'sling use'), should start appearing on guild/subguild trees as the week goes on.

There's code in place (for decades) that ensures any skills that appear on your character's guild/subguild tree that your character doesn't currently have get added at login.

With regards to crafting for arrows, bullets, darts, and bolts - nothing has changed, there.   Bullets can still be foraged/crafted while arrows/bolts/darts can still be crafted off of fletchery.

Will the helpfiles be updated to let us know which guild/subguild gets which skill? Or can you info dump here? Or both?

Thanks Nessalin and Nathvaan for all the hard work. Truly impressive, you are what make this game dynamic and reactive and constantly competing with even the strongest multi-thousand/million dollar games out there.

When the skills are in place they will be visible on the skills list, in the help files and likely announced as well (perhaps here or in release notes).  As Nessalin stated they will be added in the coming weeks.

Thank you for the kind words.  We, like everyone, are just passionate about game and use our skills to do what we can to continue to push the game toward a better/more feature rich state.  As to competing with other MMOs, MUDs were here first.  I think they are just competing with us! ;)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on January 17, 2017, 06:28:24 AM
Upon giving this change some serious thought, this will really give some serious power to master archery, since it will take a lot more to get it up to the max, I suspect making it much rarer (hopefully) and thus even more intimidating when some rocks up and neck shots your two buddies and asks for your boots.

Having a dedicated slings skill is going to be awesome because Ive actually kind of wondered why it wasnt its own already, its a very different motion to shooting a bow. Maybe it will be used now as an actual weapon, maybe for non lethal things or something. Never been hit with one so I dont know if thats a thing that exists but sweet if it does.

Crafting changes sound awesome and I actually suspect I might enjoy it if/when I eventually get around to rolling up my first ever merchant.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 17, 2017, 09:20:33 AM
I'm just so excited to see a potential change in crossbows. With no delay on shoot, it'll mean having a one-shot crossbow become so much more exhilarating. Especially because at "close range" they should be quite powerful. Pop a couple "hand crossbows", fire off a couple shots before engaging in the city? Take out an armored soldier? C'mon, guys!

Also dynamic crafting. Oh my god. Still preparing my soul for this.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Sedora on January 17, 2017, 10:21:25 AM
I'm looking forward to all the dyeing. But in light of this update I think staff might want to look into consolidating black dye. Even some longterm players I've met IC don't realize that there are two different blacks that essentially function the same. As a longterm merchant player, though, I know well this anguish.

a packet of bitter black dye - Used in some MCs, but the only cloth it actually dyes is sandcloth.

a package of black dye - Used in some MCs I'm sure, though I haven't found any. Also used to dye linen, cotton and silk.

My main worry here is whether one of the two isn't included in this update. If one didn't, with lots of people not knowing there are two and not stalking the GDB, people might get tricked into thinking black isn't possible cause they bought/crafted the wrong one.


Another thing I noticed is that a lot of the dyes I had prior to the update were turned into a packet of bitter dye. Should I send in a report with a log of that or is it something you guys are aware of?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Malken on January 17, 2017, 10:51:43 AM
Very awesome nice!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 17, 2017, 11:00:44 AM
Another thing I noticed is that a lot of the dyes I had prior to the update were turned into a packet of bitter dye. Should I send in a report with a log of that or is it something you guys are aware of?

Wish up asking for a new instance of the object.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 17, 2017, 11:04:47 AM
I'm looking forward to all the dyeing. But in light of this update I think staff might want to look into consolidating black dye. Even some longterm players I've met IC don't realize that there are two different blacks that essentially function the same. As a longterm merchant player, though, I know well this anguish.

a packet of bitter black dye - Used in some MCs, but the only cloth it actually dyes is sandcloth.

a package of black dye - Used in some MCs I'm sure, though I haven't found any. Also used to dye linen, cotton and silk.

My main worry here is whether one of the two isn't included in this update. If one didn't, with lots of people not knowing there are two and not stalking the GDB, people might get tricked into thinking black isn't possible cause they bought/crafted the wrong one.

This is the exact scenario the new system should prevent happening in the future.

Both of these will be updated as we go through the database so they can be used with the new dynamic crafting system, which will mean both can be used in dyeing materials.   We won't be keeping only one of them.

Once we've reach a certain point of confidence in the new system we'll be deprecating the old recipes as they're no longer needed.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on January 17, 2017, 11:06:17 AM
So exciting! Will this change how MCs work?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LauraMars on January 17, 2017, 11:38:18 AM
NESSALIN IS FIRE

(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on January 17, 2017, 12:39:55 PM

Did slings get boosted any or are they still kind of gimpy?

Slings are pretty strong.   Not really great for pvp, but not bad for pve. 
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on January 17, 2017, 01:02:50 PM

The last time I used one, I whacked a tregil 8 times and he didn't go down. I can understand it not bringing down something bigger, but that's like hunting a rabbit ... which is what I'd think slings were good at.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on January 17, 2017, 01:10:54 PM
You can kill just about everything with a sling, maybe excluding some of the high stun creatures like a Mek, bahamet. 
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 17, 2017, 01:11:18 PM
Also, "Sling" and "Slingshot" are very different things.

It could take a while to kill a rabbit with a slingshot.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on January 17, 2017, 01:14:58 PM
I can't seem to get the brew crafting working. I'll send in a log once I have a chance to experiment more.

I feel like maybe I'm just doing the syntax wrong. Am I doing the syntax wrong? What should it be?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 17, 2017, 01:26:09 PM
I can't seem to get the brew crafting working. I'll send in a log once I have a chance to experiment more.

I feel like maybe I'm just doing the syntax wrong. Am I doing the syntax wrong? What should it be?

Crafting poisons and cures should work the same as brew did.  All recipes require two or three herb items.

Code: [Select]
> craft herb1 herb2(list of recipes displayed)

Code: [Select]
> craft herb1 herb2 herb3(list of recipes displayed)

Once you've decided on a recipe you'll have to use the # option for crafting, not the name.
Code: [Select]
> craft herb1 herb2 into #1(this will work)

Code: [Select]
> craft herb1 herb2 into lump of green mush(this will NOT work)


Sending along a log is always helpful.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 17, 2017, 01:29:53 PM

The last time I used one, I whacked a tregil 8 times and he didn't go down. I can understand it not bringing down something bigger, but that's like hunting a rabbit ... which is what I'd think slings were good at.



I've planted at least that many arrows from a high value bow in to a tregil to similar affect. Skill has a lot to do with it of course. Slings will kill NPCs (and I wouldn't recommend actually getting hit by one), but they'll probably do it slower and you won't be able to poison. Their big advantage is more readily available ammunition.

Will these new Weapon skills have varying rates of skill gain? Is it easier to master a Crossbow than a bow?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 17, 2017, 02:48:16 PM
I can't seem to get the brew crafting working. I'll send in a log once I have a chance to experiment more.

I feel like maybe I'm just doing the syntax wrong. Am I doing the syntax wrong? What should it be?

For those used to brewing, it is worth nothing that its item targeting was inconsistent with how the rest of the game works.

Namely, in brew if you have
Code: [Select]
> i
a blue herb
a green herb
a red herb
You could brew them with
Code: [Select]
> brew herb herb herb
With craft you would have to type
Code: [Select]
> craft herb 2.herb 3.herbor
Code: [Select]
> craft red.herb blue.herb green.herb
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on January 17, 2017, 04:32:05 PM
Hmm, I'm interested to see where these skills are going to end up... Now I'm going to want to store to see if this effects my favorite guild.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 17, 2017, 04:52:36 PM
Dear Staff,

If you give me master crossbow use, I promise to only use it to kill everyone.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: purpledragon on January 18, 2017, 12:24:25 AM
will current characters skilled at archery have their skills transferred to all new types (having all @ the current level of archery), or will new types be set to 0?
if latter, will it be possible to switch to submit request and transfer skill points from archery to crossbows?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on January 18, 2017, 01:46:41 AM
Interesting change.

I see there is a strength/Stamina component for loading crossbows. However as per the help-files(shown below), does agility still rule them all? Also with exception of equipment, are all skills are equal across the board? Despite the story of David and Goliath, I have a hard time believing a slingshot would have the same long range impact as an arrow or bolt to an armored head and neck. Just wondering if the difference between how the skills perform (other than delay times) are going to be reflected with equipment costs/weight?   

Quote
Agility
(Attributes)

Agility is an ability score that measures all types of physical coordination and swiftness. Hand-eye coordination, reaction time, balance, depth perception, and reflexes are all types of characteristics measured by agility.

The agility score is used to determine speed of reaction in combat, missile fire bonuses, ability to dodge objects, escape capture, avoid dangerous spell effects, leap across distances, climb walls, and picking pockets of unsuspecting bystanders.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bushranger on January 18, 2017, 04:59:38 AM
Interesting change.

I see there is a strength/Stamina component for loading crossbows. However as per the help-files(shown below), does agility still rule them all? Also with exception of equipment, are all skills are equal across the board? Despite the story of David and Goliath, I have a hard time believing a slingshot would have the same long range impact as an arrow or bolt to an armored head and neck. Just wondering if the difference between how the skills perform (other than delay times) are going to be reflected with equipment costs/weight?   

Quote
Agility
(Attributes)

Agility is an ability score that measures all types of physical coordination and swiftness. Hand-eye coordination, reaction time, balance, depth perception, and reflexes are all types of characteristics measured by agility.

The agility score is used to determine speed of reaction in combat, missile fire bonuses, ability to dodge objects, escape capture, avoid dangerous spell effects, leap across distances, climb walls, and picking pockets of unsuspecting bystanders.

There is also a strength/stamina component for firing a bow. These have been part of archery for a very long time. The difference is that a crossbow checks strength, to see if the string can be pulled, and subtracts some stamina when it is loaded. It means that unlike a bow a crossbow can be fired with no strength check, no stamina cost and no delay. (Which means a weak elf, merchant or noble can fire the most powerful crossbow so long as someone else loads it. I can totally see a noble "hunting" with a powerful silt-horror crossbow that their manservant loads for them between shots.)

* "Hunting" means shooting at beggars from the balcony overlooking Meleth's Circle :P
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 18, 2017, 10:11:07 AM
January 18th, 2017 Release (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg976126.html#new)

This should address the bugs reported, so far, with the new crafting changes.

Many thanks to those that included logs in their Game Bug requests.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 18, 2017, 10:14:16 AM
will current characters skilled at archery have their skills transferred to all new types (having all @ the current level of archery), or will new types be set to 0?

The new skills with be 0 until they are added to guilds and subguilds, at which point character skills will be bumped up when they login to their guild/subguild starting skill.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on January 18, 2017, 10:27:46 AM

The last time I used one, I whacked a tregil 8 times and he didn't go down. I can understand it not bringing down something bigger, but that's like hunting a rabbit ... which is what I'd think slings were good at.

Sling damage is based on (at least) bullet quality and hit location.  I've killed fairly large critters (humanoid-range HP) with 5 stones before (3 head/neck/wrist shots, 2 body).  I'm pretty sure I've 2-shotted tregils and jozhals before with a couple of back-to-back neck shots.

Question:  what's the deal with strength vs. bows now?  When I ass -v bows currently, it doesn't tell me whether the pull is too strong/too weak anymore.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 18, 2017, 10:42:11 AM
Question:  what's the deal with strength vs. bows now?  When I ass -v bows currently, it doesn't tell me whether the pull is too strong/too weak anymore.

Game bug request with log, please.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 18, 2017, 10:58:38 AM
Dear Staff,

If you give me master crossbow use, I promise to only use it to kill everyone.
(https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/1400x931121.jpg?w=748&h=496&crop=1)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on January 18, 2017, 11:20:45 AM
Question:  what's the deal with strength vs. bows now?  When I ass -v bows currently, it doesn't tell me whether the pull is too strong/too weak anymore.

Game bug request with log, please.

Sent.

I should note that this appears to be an issue with particular items in shops and inventories.

I had a bow that wasn't assessing properly, and it also wouldn't shoot properly.  A staff member replaced it with a new bow, and now everything is working properly (as far as I can tell).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 18, 2017, 11:22:46 AM
Dear Staff,

If you give me master crossbow use, I promise to only use it to kill everyone.
(https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/1400x931121.jpg?w=748&h=496&crop=1)

I would be perfectly alright if a loaded heavy crossbow, shooting someone in the neck or the head while in the same room, caused massive damage with a knock-down potential.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 18, 2017, 11:25:15 AM
Question:  what's the deal with strength vs. bows now?  When I ass -v bows currently, it doesn't tell me whether the pull is too strong/too weak anymore.

Game bug request with log, please.

Sent.

I should note that this appears to be an issue with particular items in shops and inventories.

I had a bow that wasn't assessing properly, and it also wouldn't shoot properly.  A staff member replaced it with a new bow, and now everything is working properly (as far as I can tell).

....game bug request with log, please.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on January 18, 2017, 01:06:19 PM
salarri should have a booth with a mechanism inside it that, for a fee, would auto load any crossbow with a bolt of your choice. We can call that mechanism a dwarf.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 18, 2017, 01:17:15 PM
salarri should have a booth with a mechanism inside it that, for a fee, would auto load any crossbow with a bolt of your choice. We can call that mechanism a dwarf.

I'm imagining a minor merchant house idea based almost solely on providing HEAVY-pull crossbows, already loaded and ready, to people in the streets.

"Tired of your boss being an overbearing asshole? Think -you- can do better, telling grebbers what to do? Put a bolt in his ass!"
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 18, 2017, 02:18:10 PM
I remain skeptical that Zalanthan crossbows would be all that good, at least relative to normal bows given the materials both have to work with.

I do someday want to have a big game hunter who has a native gun dwarf tasked with carrying and loading all of my crossbows, however.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: wizturbo on January 18, 2017, 02:21:47 PM
I'm loving all these releases.  We're living in a new golden era of Armageddon's development.

I find myself checking the forums on a daily basis mostly because of the excitement for what might've been added. 
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ChibiTama on January 18, 2017, 11:23:06 PM
Will 'a crumbling red tablet' do the same thing as 'a red tablet'?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ChibiTama on January 18, 2017, 11:35:23 PM
I sent in a new bug log, staffers. :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 19, 2017, 09:22:40 AM
Looking to test all these cures and poisons, in game. Breeds and elves, inquire within!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on January 19, 2017, 10:06:51 AM
Are legacy cure tablets still functional?

Because it would be mildly annoying to suddenly "find out IC," so to speak.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 19, 2017, 10:10:29 AM
A non-code issue with cure/poison crafted has been fixed.  Specifically the issue where most any cure/poison crafted was making red mashes, tablets, and vials.

The issue with yellow herbs making grey mashes will be fixed in tomorrow morning's reboot.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 19, 2017, 10:16:16 AM
Old tablets and cures will continue to work as they always did.

The ability to make them will be removed once we've attained some confidence in feature parity between craft & brew and that the system acts as intended.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ChibiTama on January 20, 2017, 12:22:21 AM
A non-code issue with cure/poison crafted has been fixed.  Specifically the issue where most any cure/poison crafted was making red mashes, tablets, and vials.

The issue with yellow herbs making grey mashes will be fixed in tomorrow morning's reboot.

I'm still getting this red tablet issue with mashes that I made yesterday.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Schrodingers Cat on January 20, 2017, 12:47:32 AM
I'm seeing I can make some things but not other things. Maybe I'm using an incorrect syntax, or don't have the right skill level but I'm seeing I can't make some of the things I can with the legacy brew system.

Will the same items still be brewable in the usual way, just using the new syntax or is there a fundamental change in how new brewed items are made? Will some items no longer be brewable?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ChibiTama on January 20, 2017, 02:28:59 AM
Is there supposed to be such a high fail rate on the new brew code?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: bardlyone on January 20, 2017, 03:18:42 AM
Is there supposed to be such a high fail rate on the new brew code?

The only things I've succeeded at making with it are the soaps you could before the change. After several fails on the first of what are apparently MULTIPLE steps now, I just gave up and went back to before. When most ingredients are costly and hard to find in duplicate unless you are personally out riding around for them, it simply becomes more efficient to stay with the old which takes twice as many ingredients (I assume, again, I've not gotten a mash to work at all, let alone steps after it), than to ruin 2-3x the materials that one tablet the old way uses.

I guess I'll just be screwed when it's phased out, but until then, I'll actually make stuff, so there's that at least. >.> I like the concept of the brew changes, but I'd have to succeed with... well... any of it... to even guess at how I like their implementation. Although, with jman ability, it's kinda disheartening to ruin half a dozen of half a dozen tries at just the first STEP of a new system.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on January 20, 2017, 05:40:06 AM
I mean maybe it will function similar to cooking now, until you get near master you cant even cook a steak.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 08:29:26 AM
I'm still getting this red tablet issue with mashes that I made yesterday.

Game Bug report, preferably with a log, would be helpful.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on January 20, 2017, 08:30:34 AM
Is there anything stopping someone from master-crafting up a trench-coat/bandoleer combo and having 8 loaded hand-crossbows draw-able from within it?

Pre-loaded crossbows could make for some seriously devastating damage potential if there's truly no delay.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 08:32:04 AM
I'm seeing I can make some things but not other things. Maybe I'm using an incorrect syntax, or don't have the right skill level but I'm seeing I can't make some of the things I can with the legacy brew system.

Will the same items still be brewable in the usual way, just using the new syntax or is there a fundamental change in how new brewed items are made? Will some items no longer be brewable?

This is vague and impossible to reply to.  A gamebug, preferably wth a log, and some context would be helpful.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 09:05:33 AM
Exaplantion of Cure/Poison crafting (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52152.0.html)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 20, 2017, 09:20:34 AM
Maybe with more fails and more material consumption, people won't walk around with a dozen cures that cost a small, against a rare poison that costs six time that for one application.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: bardlyone on January 20, 2017, 09:39:49 AM
Maybe with more fails and more material consumption, people won't walk around with a dozen cures that cost a small, against a rare poison that costs six time that for one application.

Doubtful. People don't collect X, Y or Z as protection because they don't see a point in it. At best it will only affect newbies who can't find the stuff to start with, and new pcs who are already at a mass disadvantage against longer lived pcs. If you think it will change anything for longer lived pcs (the ones you might actually NEED poison to counter the combat skills of), I think you're kidding yourself. I don't mean that in a mean way, either. But seriously, it's not going to change a practice that is what it is because it's what people find they need to be/do/work effectively. All it's going to do is be more timesink for the same ends. People used to carry one set of cures and now they carry five or six. They adapted to the change to counter the change to make cures less of a guarantee by carrying more cures rather than just the 1 still and maybe dying to it. And in the exact same way that they will this one. Because it's human nature.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 20, 2017, 09:57:44 AM
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm still all for people having packages of cures ready for consumption, but some cures cost like 20 coins, while the poison it takes to even make them necessary are 300 coins PER APPLICATION.

That's way more than the acceptable ounce of prevention being worth the pound of cure.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Schrodingers Cat on January 20, 2017, 10:01:39 AM
I'm seeing I can make some things but not other things. Maybe I'm using an incorrect syntax, or don't have the right skill level but I'm seeing I can't make some of the things I can with the legacy brew system.

Will the same items still be brewable in the usual way, just using the new syntax or is there a fundamental change in how new brewed items are made? Will some items no longer be brewable?

This is vague and impossible to reply to.  A gamebug, preferably wth a log, and some context would be helpful.

Should we be able to craft the same effective cures/poisons with the new system using the same starting materials used to brew the same poisons/cures used to make them in the old system? I can't and I'm not sure if it's a bug or because of low skill level. I'll send some logs when I get a chance.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 20, 2017, 10:06:48 AM
Is there anything stopping someone from master-crafting up a trench-coat/bandoleer combo and having 8 loaded hand-crossbows draw-able from within it?

Pre-loaded crossbows could make for some seriously devastating damage potential if there's truly no delay.

I'm sure, like "use tail" while riding a Sunback, this would be abused, and for an incredibly short time.


However, like a regular crossbow, I'd be fine if someone can fire off two shots without delay, before starting combat. If they drop the crossbows in between. But if you're in the same room I'm -totally- fine with it still initiating combat. At a distance, though? I can't imagine the kind of problem five no-lag shots can do to something.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: whitt on January 20, 2017, 10:10:14 AM
I'd love to hear how you store a loaded crossbow without the bolt falling out.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 10:14:19 AM
I'd love to hear how you store a loaded crossbow without the bolt falling out.

Much in the same way you live your whole life and never have to take a shit or sleep.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: whitt on January 20, 2017, 10:29:28 AM
I'd love to hear how you store a loaded crossbow without the bolt falling out.

Much in the same way you live your whole life and never have to take a shit or sleep.

I suppose so?  Yet there are certain items in game, when you try to put them in a pack for storage they spill.  I'd think crossbow would behave similarly, staying cocked, but not loaded as the bolt would fall out if someone were to sling the crossbow or shove it in a bag or pack.  Then again, we don't require folks to string and unstring their bows for storage, so maybe I'm just overthinking.  Still - someone yanking fully loaded crossbows out of their duster, off their belt, from over their shoulder, and then three from their backpack strikes me as a bit immersion breaking.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: bardlyone on January 20, 2017, 10:33:32 AM
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm still all for people having packages of cures ready for consumption, but some cures cost like 20 coins, while the poison it takes to even make them necessary are 300 coins PER APPLICATION.

That's way more than the acceptable ounce of prevention being worth the pound of cure.

Honestly it sounds to me like the poison costs too much then. Because you're not going to make people collect less cures, and making them more expensive won't prevent people from getting them, nor will making them more difficult to find. It'll only stretch the vulnerable window some.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nauta on January 20, 2017, 10:38:44 AM
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm still all for people having packages of cures ready for consumption, but some cures cost like 20 coins, while the poison it takes to even make them necessary are 300 coins PER APPLICATION.

That's way more than the acceptable ounce of prevention being worth the pound of cure.

Honestly it sounds to me like the poison costs too much then. Because you're not going to make people collect less cures, and making them more expensive won't prevent people from getting them, nor will making them more difficult to find. It'll only stretch the vulnerable window some.

I agree with the above concern about vulnerable newbies, but at the same time...

It'd require a lot of thinking through to make sure the balance is right (and right now the balance is pretty ok), but I would love to see: both poisons and cures spoil/expire after a certain amount of time -- I'm thinking: poisons) after an IG month if unapplied or an IG year if applied; cures) after an IG year if tablet; 2 IG years if vial.


Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 10:47:39 AM
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm still all for people having packages of cures ready for consumption, but some cures cost like 20 coins, while the poison it takes to even make them necessary are 300 coins PER APPLICATION.

That's way more than the acceptable ounce of prevention being worth the pound of cure.

Honestly it sounds to me like the poison costs too much then. Because you're not going to make people collect less cures, and making them more expensive won't prevent people from getting them, nor will making them more difficult to find. It'll only stretch the vulnerable window some.

I agree with the above concern about vulnerable newbies, but at the same time...

It'd require a lot of thinking through to make sure the balance is right (and right now the balance is pretty ok), but I would love to see: both poisons and cures spoil/expire after a certain amount of time -- I'm thinking: poisons) after an IG month if unapplied or an IG year if applied; cures) after an IG year if tablet; 2 IG years if vial.

This is the line of thinking with the mash/tablet/vial system.  That over time their effectiveness would wane until they are eventually worthless (and would have text to indicate so the same way foods do).

A mash would be most effective but has the shortest lifespan.

A vial would be medium effectiveness with the longest lifespan.  Requires an empty vial so there's a cost component and size issue.

A tablet would be medium effectiveness with a medium lifespan.

This is not coded, or even planned coding, yet, but that is some of the thinking behind the progression of...

herbs->mash
herbs->mash->tablet
herbs->mash->vial
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on January 20, 2017, 10:56:16 AM
One thing I've noticed is that it's very inconsistent what tablets/vials can be sold to herbalists - and the prices are abysmal. If they're eventually not going to be as useful to keep stockpiled, then we could at least make a business out of it by selling to NPCs as well as PCs, since playtime logistics can get really hairy (same as it does with food).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ChibiTama on January 20, 2017, 10:57:06 AM
I just find it a little bit excessive for someone who has the skill at Master to be failing four out of five on attempts to create mashes and tablets.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 20, 2017, 10:57:18 AM
So the eventual idea is to keep a few herbs on hand, and whip up a mash in the moment, for maximum potency. But if you want to have a cure on hand, or need to shove it down someone's throat, vials are superior.


I like it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 11:01:31 AM
I just find it a little bit excessive for someone who has the skill at Master to be failing four out of five on attempts to create mashes and tablets.

The numbers can certainly be tweaked.  We're in the early stages, still.  This is why the craft/brew systems are working in parallel as bugs are fixed.

If you could put in a game bug request with some hard numbers on your attempts/failures and which herbs you were using it would make it easier for me to look at what's going on.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 11:03:36 AM
So the eventual idea is to keep a few herbs on hand, and whip up a mash in the moment, for maximum potency. But if you want to have a cure on hand, or need to shove it down someone's throat, vials are superior.


I like it.

Correct.  The right tool for the right job.

Also gives people a reason to have an actual healer along rather than 'healer in a bottle'.  Similar to how potions got out of hand because everyone kept a cache of them in their inventory.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nauta on January 20, 2017, 11:07:12 AM
I just find it a little bit excessive for someone who has the skill at Master to be failing four out of five on attempts to create mashes and tablets.

I'm still waiting for the code to settle a bit, but the other day when I tried, I found the results delightfully better.  I failed a couple times, but the craft delay is so much smaller than with brew.  From what I could tell, I like it.

That said, I did notice a bug: it only took one herb to make a mash, rather than two.  I'll file it off if it isn't already fixed.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: bardlyone on January 20, 2017, 11:09:59 AM
I just assumed it took two mashes to make a vial/tablet and each one of those took one herb, so if you succeeded at both it still took 2 herbs, rather than doubling it to 4 (two per mash). Does it only take 1 mash?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on January 20, 2017, 11:10:06 AM
So the eventual idea is to keep a few herbs on hand, and whip up a mash in the moment, for maximum potency. But if you want to have a cure on hand, or need to shove it down someone's throat, vials are superior.


I like it.

Correct.  The right tool for the right job.

Also gives people a reason to have an actual healer along rather than 'healer in a bottle'.  Similar to how potions got out of hand because everyone kept a cache of them in their inventory.

While I really like the thinking that's going into this, we should also keep in mind playability and player availability.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on January 20, 2017, 11:20:43 AM
Also, are we going to look into the (unrealistic) speed of onset for some of these poisons as a counterbalance?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akaramu on January 20, 2017, 11:32:13 AM
So the eventual idea is to keep a few herbs on hand, and whip up a mash in the moment, for maximum potency. But if you want to have a cure on hand, or need to shove it down someone's throat, vials are superior.


I like it.

Correct.  The right tool for the right job.

Also gives people a reason to have an actual healer along rather than 'healer in a bottle'.  Similar to how potions got out of hand because everyone kept a cache of them in their inventory.

While I really like the thinking that's going into this, we should also keep in mind playability and player availability.

What Delirium said. Let's not penalize offpeakers without access to healer PCs more.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 11:34:03 AM
I just assumed it took two mashes to make a vial/tablet and each one of those took one herb, so if you succeeded at both it still took 2 herbs, rather than doubling it to 4 (two per mash). Does it only take 1 mash?

1 mash transforms into 1 tablet
1 mash + 1 empty vial transforms into 1 filled vial
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: bardlyone on January 20, 2017, 11:41:09 AM
So the eventual idea is to keep a few herbs on hand, and whip up a mash in the moment, for maximum potency. But if you want to have a cure on hand, or need to shove it down someone's throat, vials are superior.


I like it.

Correct.  The right tool for the right job.

Also gives people a reason to have an actual healer along rather than 'healer in a bottle'.  Similar to how potions got out of hand because everyone kept a cache of them in their inventory.

While I really like the thinking that's going into this, we should also keep in mind playability and player availability.

What Delirium said. Let's not penalize offpeakers without access to healer PCs more.

These being the reasons why I wasn't fond of food spoilage either, still am not, and am dreading making more things spoil.

If playtimes weren't an issue, that'd be... I guess a whole different game. When I am on, there is usually between 3-9 other players, at the opening and tail end of playtimes, closer to 15.

I have to assume that the game is different and a whole hell of a lot less frustrating when trying to do things that require other people being online when other people talk about making you NEED this or that type of pc around, given that it's usually difficult to find a templar or a gmh employee or other much more game-world-rooted pcs as far as tie ins to the overarching game when I am on. I can't fathom people suggesting you make needing yet other people around who I typically won't find. I can only assume they're playing a different game or part of the influx of 'peak time' players who get the most consideration even though it's the smallest window of playtime in the game. Of COURSE people who play outside the magic window will be frustrated when you design things to that everyone playing during these few hours a day all needs each other for coded rather than RP reasons, because it shafts the people who will never find those pcs, who never log in during those times, but still need to accomplish X, Y, or Z.

I just assumed it took two mashes to make a vial/tablet and each one of those took one herb, so if you succeeded at both it still took 2 herbs, rather than doubling it to 4 (two per mash). Does it only take 1 mash?

1 mash transforms into 1 tablet
1 mash + 1 empty vial transforms into 1 filled vial

This makes the fail rate less galling. Thank you for the info. I like the concept of what this is going to be, but the details are still way too confusing to comment on.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 02:36:35 PM
What Delirium said. Let's not penalize offpeakers without access to healer PCs more.

Noted.

Cure/Poison degradation is a ways off.  When the time comes to code up we can look at it taking a long time.  The scenario to avoid is one where a starting player buys a bag of cures and still has them 10ic years later when they eat the wrong mushroom.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Reiloth on January 20, 2017, 02:38:54 PM
What Delirium said. Let's not penalize offpeakers without access to healer PCs more.

Noted.

Cure/Poison degradation is a ways off.  When the time comes to code up we can look at it taking a long time.  The scenario to avoid is one where a starting player buys a bag of cures and still has them 10ic years later when they eat the wrong mushroom.

Instead of 'spoiling', what if the tablets effectiveness reduced over time? So you still have the tablet, but in that 'moment of truth', whether or not it works is dependent on that. The tablets, as well, aren't Advil or Tyelnol. They're supposed to be dried out herbs made into a mush and set out to dry into 'tablets' that can be taken. So maybe the older they are, the more likely they are to crumble into dust when you get them from your bag/pouch/belt.

I really like the 'Poison Recovery' aspect that was either added in or I didn't notice before, where just because you take a tablet doesn't mean the poison is automatically flushed from your system. It'd be nice if each poison had a different poison recovery effect.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 02:47:33 PM
Instead of 'spoiling', what if the tablets effectiveness reduced over time? So you still have the tablet, but in that 'moment of truth', whether or not it works is dependent on that. The tablets, as well, aren't Advil or Tyelnol. They're supposed to be dried out herbs made into a mush and set out to dry into 'tablets' that can be taken. So maybe the older they are, the more likely they are to crumble into dust when you get them from your bag/pouch/belt.

This was mentioned as a to-do earlier in the thread.  That's precisely what aging of cures would mean.  Although the sdesc updates would give a hint towards how degraded they are.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 03:12:46 PM


It would be nice knowing what staff are moving towards here.

Is there a bigger picture?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Rathustra on January 20, 2017, 03:21:19 PM


It would be nice knowing what staff are moving towards here.

Is there a bigger picture?

(http://i.imgur.com/h3ynX7B.jpg)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 03:26:09 PM


It would be nice knowing what staff are moving towards here.

Is there a bigger picture?

(http://i.imgur.com/N1lx7db.png)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: SuchDragonWow on January 20, 2017, 03:37:11 PM
I didn't realize you guys know Pepe Sylvia
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 03:45:36 PM


It would be nice knowing what staff are moving towards here.

Is there a bigger picture?

(http://i.imgur.com/N1lx7db.png)

lol. That actually made me lose my shit.

But I think the tone of my post was misinterpreted. Are these changes being made in expectation for the main guild overhaul? Are we making them because archery needed a tweak? Or did we just feel archery deserved a broader base of skills. etc. etc. etc. I'm just curious.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 03:58:26 PM


It would be nice knowing what staff are moving towards here.

Is there a bigger picture?

(http://i.imgur.com/N1lx7db.png)

lol. That actually made me lose my shit.

But I think the tone of my post was misinterpreted. Are these changes being made in expectation for the main guild overhaul? Are we making them because archery needed a tweak? Or did we just feel archery deserved a broader base of skills. etc. etc. etc. I'm just curious.

(https://i.imgflip.com/1i1h6w.jpg)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 04:11:23 PM
Or I guess you don't have to answer? Or is there something else I'm missing?

It was a serious question and I'm not liking the way it's being dismissed here.

I'll add that I do think it's cool that you guys are making changes and updates to the way the game works.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 04:29:54 PM
Or I guess you don't have to answer? Or is there something else I'm missing?

It was a serious question and I'm not liking the way it's being dismissed here.

I'll add that I do think it's cool that you guys are making changes and updates to the way the game works.

We rarely make comments on plans because it sets expectations.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 04:30:48 PM
Or I guess you don't have to answer? Or is there something else I'm missing?

It was a serious question and I'm not liking the way it's being dismissed here.

I'll add that I do think it's cool that you guys are making changes and updates to the way the game works.

We rarely make comments on plans because it sets expectations.

Gotcha. Thanks.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 20, 2017, 05:10:39 PM
Watching the Pepe Silvia clip made me realize Barney has max stealth/hide.

I wish I had the crafting skills to explore additional sling-related items. Maybe next character. I see room for growth in ammunition (clay-forged bullets), staff-slings, slings with additional weight capacity but reduced range, etc.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 20, 2017, 07:07:00 PM
I like the rebranding of Mastercrafts in to Custom Crafts, and the more explicit guidelines for what can be created.

discussion moved to here: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52157.msg976589/boardseen.html#new
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bushranger on January 20, 2017, 07:13:04 PM
Watching the Pepe Silvia clip made me realize Barney has max stealth/hide.

I wish I had the crafting skills to explore additional sling-related items. Maybe next character. I see room for growth in ammunition (clay-forged bullets), staff-slings, slings with additional weight capacity but reduced range, etc.

Half-giant slings with head sized stones as ammunition!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: The Warshaper on January 20, 2017, 09:15:37 PM
Im pretty sure there was some positive feedback for making archery not include slings because folks were skilling up with slings and then stepping over to a bow without their character having used one extensively enough to translate their gains from using a sling.

I like specializations. If melee weapons had more categories codedly I'd support that too!  :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 20, 2017, 09:35:58 PM
Yeah, I'm afraid that was the main reason for sling-use in game. Despite them historically being a pretty fearsome weapon in their own right, they don't have nearly the same utility of bows for range, damage, or poison delivery. Yet.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Refugee on January 20, 2017, 10:51:45 PM
Arrows are lost at such a prohibitive rate when you are new, and they are so expensive, that I am a bit sad about this change.  Yes, it's silly that using a sling will make you good with a bow, but I always played it as training your hand-eye coordination and suspended my disbelief.  I'm not sure how we can afford training up bowmen without archery targets and slings now!  Well, I guess they will have to postpone archery training until they can afford it.  That makes sense.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Rokal on January 21, 2017, 02:03:45 AM
i honestly think the archery being split off into different types of weapons is going to be awesome.

I've wanted to have a character that specialized in slings for the longest time, so I'm hoping to see more sling-style weapons come out.

honestly, in general, all of the changes in this new update are pretty exciting to me, to me the changes to brewing seem to be just baby steps towards a more robust system of 'alchemy', and allows for a huge amount of RP potential too.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on January 21, 2017, 02:09:51 AM
The more I wrap my head around how this new brewing system will/should work, the more I love its potential.

Excited.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Seeker on January 21, 2017, 12:14:50 PM
The more I wrap my head around how this new brewing system will/should work, the more I love its potential.

Excited.
Bah.  That is just because you have publicly arranged to receive special behind-the-curtain Request Tool instruction in all its subtle intricacies.  Stinker.

What's worse... you are probably playing some flavor of Ranger, too.  *snort*

(the above is intended to be humorous... and spelling error corrected)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on January 22, 2017, 02:08:47 AM
I know you're joking, Peeker... but just in case anyone gets the wrong impression....


For existing PCs with high skills we respond via the request tool to help them convert their knowledge of current recipes over to new ones.

What type of request would we submit and does it need to be clanned?


A question request is fine.

It'd be preferable if you include an example of what cures your character already knows how to brew by way of which items you are able to combine into which cures.   

We can provide you with information on how to use craft to make equivalent cures, but aren't going to give all master brewers information about the new system that extends beyond what their character knew in the old one.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Seeker on January 22, 2017, 02:21:55 AM
I swear it looked more playfully humorous when I typed it last night.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Reiloth on January 22, 2017, 11:46:49 AM
I thought it was funny.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LauraMars on January 22, 2017, 03:54:07 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/N1lx7db.png)

lol. That actually made me lose my shit.

HAH
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Feco on January 22, 2017, 03:59:02 PM
I missed that.   That's fucking hilarious!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akaramu on January 22, 2017, 03:59:42 PM
Yup. Good stuff.  ;D
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 23, 2017, 02:59:06 PM
Hey in case anyone else missed it, there was more updates today:

Quote

January, 23rd, 2017

(Nessalin)
-Output when using the 'assess' command on objects has been updated
  -Now displays the material the object is primarily made out of
  -Format updated to (hopefully) be a little cleaner)
  -bow/crossbow/sling/blowgun now say what they are and what kind of ammo they use
  -arrow/bolt/bullet/dart now say that they are ammo and what kind of weapon they need
  -Fixed long standing bug where some skinning weapons would say they were usable for skinning twice
-Added things made from GEM, GLASS, CERAMIC, SALT, and FUNGUS undyeable.

(Nathvaan)
-A great deal of ground work for upcoming projects.

(Akariel, Rathustra)
-Blowgun use, sling use, and crossbow use have been added to primary guild skill trees.  These skills should be added to your character upon logging in if you're supposed to get them.

I'm particularly interested in seeing the assess -v update in action.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on January 23, 2017, 03:02:06 PM
I'm particularly interested in seeing the assess -v update in action.

It's neat, and definitely adds clarity. I like it. I forsee a lot of typos in the queue in the future!

... the silken thingamajig is primarily made of bone.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on January 23, 2017, 10:07:24 PM
Arrows are lost at such a prohibitive rate when you are new, and they are so expensive, that I am a bit sad about this change.  Yes, it's silly that using a sling will make you good with a bow, but I always played it as training your hand-eye coordination and suspended my disbelief.  I'm not sure how we can afford training up bowmen without archery targets and slings now!  Well, I guess they will have to postpone archery training until they can afford it.  That makes sense.

Training archery with arrows is not cost-prohibitive if you only shoot at things you know you are exceedingly unlikely to hit.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Feco on January 24, 2017, 10:00:18 AM
Arrows are lost at such a prohibitive rate when you are new, and they are so expensive, that I am a bit sad about this change.  Yes, it's silly that using a sling will make you good with a bow, but I always played it as training your hand-eye coordination and suspended my disbelief.  I'm not sure how we can afford training up bowmen without archery targets and slings now!  Well, I guess they will have to postpone archery training until they can afford it.  That makes sense.

Training archery with arrows is not cost-prohibitive if you only shoot at things you know you are exceedingly unlikely to hit.

I'll make sure to avoid training archery on ya'll's moms.  OOhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 8)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on January 24, 2017, 11:31:11 AM
(https://media.tenor.co/images/ddd26e2143ded158f364949ea2ef803f/raw)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on January 28, 2017, 09:27:07 PM
Archery and brew changes are both awesome.

Brew, while vastly different, seems to be moving in the direction that was asked for in the poisoning discussion from code ideas awhile back.  I like when that happens.   8)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 30, 2017, 01:21:12 PM
Quote
(Lyric)
-Submitted several new combat messages that the code can choose from for greater variety.  These are things like kick, bash, backstab, and so on.

:O What is this?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 30, 2017, 01:32:21 PM
Quote
(Lyric)
-Submitted several new combat messages that the code can choose from for greater variety.  These are things like kick, bash, backstab, and so on.

:O What is this?

When you use combat skills like bash, kick, backstab there are a set of message for each broken into groups.

3 messages for when you hit, when you miss, when you hit and kill your target.

The three messages per group are
-to attacker
-to victim
-to room

When a message is needed the code randomly selects a group from the list and displays those.  A few of them have two messages, most have only one.   The more that get added the more variety players will see in messages from the game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 30, 2017, 01:33:03 PM
Neat. Thank you for the explanation.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on January 30, 2017, 01:34:47 PM
Will this affect the ruling that kicks are kicks, and emotes denoting elbows and such should not be used?

Or is that ruling out of date altogether?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 30, 2017, 01:35:22 PM
There was a ruling on that? Man I've been breaking the rules for a long time.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on January 30, 2017, 01:40:03 PM
There was a ruling on that? Man I've been breaking the rules for a long time.

Ruling might be too strong a word.  But I remember there being a hubbub over it (that maybe went away?) over items that had bonuses to kick skill but weren't used when you emoted other locations.

We were told kicks were kicks.  Perhaps I'm outdated, in which case asking this would be a good thing for me!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on January 30, 2017, 01:41:55 PM
There was a ruling on that? Man I've been breaking the rules for a long time.

If someone reverses your kick, and you emoted it as an elbow, it would look really weird, because the reversal message is always based on the assumption that a kick is, in fact, a kick.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 30, 2017, 01:45:22 PM
I usually emote after the fact for just such a reason.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Inks on January 30, 2017, 05:53:57 PM
My bashes are often headbutts when they land.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on January 30, 2017, 06:48:16 PM
My bashes are usually literal shoves for brawnier guys or leg sweeps for the more nimble folk.

Kicks are generally kicks though, using the kick command means you kick to me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on January 30, 2017, 06:56:52 PM
I will randomize my kicks between kicks or a knee to the gut or something similar. I dislike NOT emoting something in combat.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on January 30, 2017, 07:51:45 PM
People who dont emote during combat bug me, those who emote very poorly bug me even more.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on January 30, 2017, 11:41:14 PM
Question about the new "cure" helpfile

Cure                                                          (Miscellaneous)

   Cures in Zalanthas come in many forms.  The most prevalent are mashes,
tablets, and vials.  Each has their own properties.

   Mashes are made by combining herbs, which can then be consumed immediately.

   Tablets can be crafted directly from a mash with the same curative
properties and then eaten later.

Does this mean that our Mashes will decompose and go away like the food code works now?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: WanderingOoze on February 13, 2017, 01:56:32 PM
-Fixed bug that allowed dyeing of food items if the order of the food and dye items were in correct order.


So...no green hawk eggs and chalton for us, Sam.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on February 13, 2017, 02:10:15 PM
-Fixed bug that allowed dyeing of food items if the order of the food and dye items were in correct order.


So...no green hawk eggs and chalton for us, Sam.

Yeah, I'm all for dying food! I know it was a bug, but can we get it turned into a feature? Cooking is a fun skill that adds a lot to a character imo, and I'm sure nobles would love to have bread baked in their house colors for parties!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: WanderingOoze on February 13, 2017, 02:34:02 PM
-Fixed bug that allowed dyeing of food items if the order of the food and dye items were in correct order.


So...no green hawk eggs and chalton for us, Sam.

Yeah, I'm all for dying food! I know it was a bug, but can we get it turned into a feature? Cooking is a fun skill that adds a lot to a character imo, and I'm sure nobles would love to have bread baked in their house colors for parties!

Yeah, that would be pretty fun.
 
Also, it would be kind of cool to be able to colorize according
to what seasonings were used. Like if you were having thing,
and one person wanted *certain seasoning* but another didn't
much care for that particular flavor, and wanted *other seasoning* instead on their steak. Oh, alright. All the -red- steaks are *this* and the -blue- steaks are *other*.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on February 13, 2017, 03:53:56 PM
Yeah but then you have blue steak to serve your buddies. Thats going to get you some wierd looks the first few times you pull that trick.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on February 13, 2017, 04:01:08 PM
Being able to color your food is an interesting idea - but not with the kind of dye you would use on wood or cloth, and not with the dyeing skill.  Interesting idea to use with the cooking skill later, maybe.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on February 13, 2017, 05:10:22 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rk-ukXVnCQ
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on February 13, 2017, 05:21:04 PM
Being able to color your food is an interesting idea - but not with the kind of dye you would use on wood or cloth, and not with the dyeing skill.  Interesting idea to use with the cooking skill later, maybe.

I get the "not with the dyeing skill" part, but why not with the dye you use on wood or cloth? Those packets are made by crushing herbs and flowers, many of which end up in seasonings, flavorants for booze, or even consumed as is.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on February 13, 2017, 05:25:51 PM
Some dyes are made from rocks.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akaramu on February 13, 2017, 05:36:41 PM
I get the "not with the dyeing skill" part, but why not with the dye you use on wood or cloth? Those packets are made by crushing herbs and flowers, many of which end up in seasonings, flavorants for booze, or even consumed as is.

I always assumed that the finished dyes include other, virtual ingredients that don't go well with food. The dye packets even have 'bitter' in their sdesc, I have a feeling they'd be at least slightly poisonous.

Actually, I think many crafting recipes - not just dyes - include virtual ingredients. Like... tanning.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on February 13, 2017, 05:44:49 PM
I for one would be OK with dying food with current dyes if they delivered negative taste messages or even poisoned the eater. These are vanity items for characters with more time and money than sense, after all. Let the plebs worry about a simple case of poisoning!

I believe we already have some precedent with this with Gypsy Pepper Belly syndrome.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on February 13, 2017, 06:59:44 PM
Cooking is a skill I love because every character gets it, and I use it almost every time I log into the game. I get why they don't want people putting clothes dye in food, but I also think coloring food would be cool.

I would be willing to help make this happen, if they need recipes and items for food coloring I could write descriptions and such. Would be cool if the dyes were made by brewing and used in cooking, but that's not really my call.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on February 13, 2017, 07:58:35 PM
lol, blue steak? no thanks. That's a little too much WoW in my armageddon.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on February 13, 2017, 07:59:24 PM
Raptor nuggets are blue.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on February 13, 2017, 08:36:03 PM
I wonder if scrab steaks are yellow after cooking.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Shoka Windrunner on February 13, 2017, 09:05:22 PM
I wonder if scrab steaks are yellow after cooking.

I think they are when you burn them...so maybe?  Less I'm wrong.   :D
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jingo on February 13, 2017, 09:14:36 PM
Red food coloring comes from ground up beetles.

True fact.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: azuriolinist on July 10, 2017, 07:43:17 AM
Quote
- The unhitch command will now take the argument 'all', unhitching all mounts your character has hitched to them.

Awesome!

Could this include unhitching all followers (excluding those shadowing)?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on July 10, 2017, 08:40:40 AM
Unhitch all is a great idea, especially if you picked up a spare and didn't title it.

But a player-initiated fix to this would be: TITLE YOUR MOUNTS AND USE THOSE TITLES.
unitch dinner/hitch lunch/unhitch shitbug/hitch stankbutt
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: whitt on July 10, 2017, 08:50:28 AM
does unhitch all?  Unhitch all the players following you too?  Please oh please?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on July 10, 2017, 08:55:18 AM
does unhitch all?  Unhitch all the players following you too?  Please oh please?

I'd like a "disband" command to - well - disband your group when you're the leader. It's old-school H&S but it works.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Is Friday on July 10, 2017, 10:13:08 AM
FINALLY.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on July 10, 2017, 10:21:12 AM
does unhitch all?  Unhitch all the players following you too?  Please oh please?

I don't see why it wouldn't.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lairos on July 10, 2017, 10:45:09 AM
does unhitch all?  Unhitch all the players following you too?  Please oh please?

I don't see why it wouldn't.

How does this amazing blanket command affect those who are "shadowing" someone or does it?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on July 10, 2017, 10:47:21 AM
Probably still can't unhitch what you can't see?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on July 12, 2017, 07:08:49 PM
Unhitch all only affects mounts that are hitched to your character.

Doesn't affect non-mounts, visible or not.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on July 12, 2017, 07:09:43 PM
Drat.

Still awesome!

... but, drat.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on July 12, 2017, 10:33:32 PM
I would rather unhitch people.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: TheGoose on July 13, 2017, 09:53:33 AM
Sometimes I try to go up to lose the group. Works.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on July 13, 2017, 10:18:49 AM
My concern is that people that only want to unhitch their mounts would keep unhitching people following them, who then have to re-follow.

Which is the more common scenario, unhitching mounts or people following?

How often is unhitch used to stop characters from following?

How effective is it when they can just re-follow?

Would a different command be better than 'unhitch'?

Maybe with different arguments?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nauta on July 13, 2017, 10:23:00 AM
Situations where unhitch followers is useful:

1) A leader of a clan needs to go into a meeting with some noble and leave all the minions in the hallways -- especially if the minions are all hoodsup.

2) You've forgotten who followed you into the room and want to logout or leave on your own.

3) A battle erupts, and you need to split quick, e.g., to position yourself as a flank or whatever.

I like unhitch all|mounts|followers.  (I assume it won't unhitch shadows just as regular unhitch won't; you still have to flee self to shake a shadow.)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: whitt on July 13, 2017, 10:29:40 AM
Which is the more common scenario, unhitching mounts or people following?

How effective is it when they can just re-follow?

Would a different command be better than 'unhitch'?

Only one class, to the best of my knowledge, can hitch multiple mounts in the first place.  So certainly, I'd say, it's more common for someone to be Pied Pipering a group of people, especially during RPTs and not necessarily know who all is following them.  Thereby resulting in folks yo-yoing rooms as the leader leaves and three people that were in the middle of a conversation or something leaves without knowing they're still being followed.

I don't think re-follow is the problem.  I think the problem is greater trying to unhitch everyone in the room before you, say, go to the estate gates to usher in the next batch of guests.

Disband would seem like a reasonable command word for a command that would unhitch all followers, but not mounts.  But then you'd have the awkwardness of still needing to use unhitch Amos for individuals if you didn't want to ditch everyone.  So maybe go with your argument list?  And let folks alias the unhitch all followers command if they like?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on July 13, 2017, 01:25:19 PM
I don't think you should be able to issue a command to stop people from following you, unless that person has been legitimately identified as linkdead--especially not if you can't even see them.

If someone is following you and you don't want them to, you already have a range of mundane options:  1) you can ask them to stop; 2) you can "flee self;" 3) you can start running and try to outrun them; or 4) you can initiate some kind of combat.

The fact you can unhitch followers one by one is already pretty sketchy, and absolutely gets abused when you're aggressively following someone.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nauta on July 13, 2017, 01:30:13 PM
I don't think you should be able to issue a command to stop people from following you, unless that person has been legitimately identified as linkdead--especially not if you can't even see them.

If someone is following you and you don't want them to, you already have a range of mundane options:  1) you can ask them to stop; 2) you can "flee self;" 3) you can start running and try to outrun them; or 4) you can initiate some kind of combat.

The fact you can unhitch followers one by one is already pretty sketchy, and absolutely gets abused when you're aggressively following someone.

unhitch <target> currently allows you to "stop leading another visible character."  The proposal, I take it, is to just extend this to stop leading all visible characters (unhitch followers).  If we didn't have this ability (to unhitch individuals), then things would be pretty irritating: a lot of PCs go on breaks, afk, etc., without going link dead while hitched.  Being able to unhitch everyone visible following you would be a convenience to save typing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on July 13, 2017, 01:39:38 PM
I don't think you should be able to issue a command to stop people from following you, unless that person has been legitimately identified as linkdead--especially not if you can't even see them.

If someone is following you and you don't want them to, you already have a range of mundane options:  1) you can ask them to stop; 2) you can "flee self;" 3) you can start running and try to outrun them; or 4) you can initiate some kind of combat.

The fact you can unhitch followers one by one is already pretty sketchy, and absolutely gets abused when you're aggressively following someone.

unhitch <target> currently allows you to "stop leading another visible character."  The proposal, I take it, is to just extend this to stop leading all visible characters (unhitch followers).

I'm aware of that.  I'm saying that "unhitch target" is already kind of a bad idea that is probably only there for convenience, since the code apparently can't tell very well when someone goes linkdead.  Doubling down on it is a terrible idea.

If three raiders are following you, there's absolutely no reason why you should be able to "unhitch all" and then spam movement commands, knowing that reaction time and latency will be on your side.

I suppose it could be usable if they recoded "shadow" to be a parallel command to "follow," such that if you are "shadowing" someone, they cannot lose you by simply using the unhitch command, even if you are visible.  This would rework "shadow" into a command for "intentionally and aggressively following" someone, and would force the followed person to react via one of the aforementioned methods.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: roughneck on July 13, 2017, 01:44:28 PM

If someone is following you and you don't want them to, you already have a range of mundane options:  1) you can ask them to stop; 2) you can "flee self;" 3) you can start running and try to outrun them; or 4) you can initiate some kind of combat.

The fact you can unhitch followers one by one is already pretty sketchy, and absolutely gets abused when you're aggressively following someone.


Chase command please.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nauta on July 13, 2017, 01:44:59 PM
Ah, that's a good point.  One idea I had might go along with this:

nosave unhitch
nosave follow
follow <target> <self>

follow <target> <self> would allow you to force target to follow you, if they have nosave follow on. (Useful when some Runner goes AFK in the desert.)

If you have nosave unhitch on, you will allow someone to unhitch you (i.e. stop leading you).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: whitt on July 13, 2017, 02:01:20 PM
[moving to Code Related Questions]
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on July 13, 2017, 02:08:23 PM

Maybe with different arguments?
  • "unhitch mounts"
  • "unhitch followers"
  • "unhitch all"

I like this, it keeps things simple. The RPT scenario is the biggest one, say you're leading 5+ people and they all emote obeying your command to remain behind but a few of them forgot to type "follow self"....

Things get awkward. As for "aggressive following" uh.... this doesn't stop that, and it's... kind of a silly concern IMO.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: WanderingOoze on July 13, 2017, 02:13:35 PM
Or when you havent seen someone for IG days and forgot
they were following you before and you happen to walk through the tavern or something and drag them along on accident.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Black on July 14, 2017, 11:17:23 AM
I like all the bug fixes. Unhitch all sounds pretty awesome too if you travel a lot with groups and need to hitch more than one, or are taming a lot of them.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: TheGoose on July 14, 2017, 03:55:53 PM
Yeah, the follow thing is pretty annoying. I drag/get dragged by people a lot. Conversely, I've never had a need to unhitch all my mounts at once. Besides, if I leave a mount behind, I drop the reins automatically. Not so with people.

If it was a one or the other scenario, I would say make 'unhitch all' affect visible followers, not mounts.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on July 15, 2017, 06:20:16 AM
Yeah, the follow thing is pretty annoying. I drag/get dragged by people a lot. Conversely, I've never had a need to unhitch all my mounts at once. Besides, if I leave a mount behind, I drop the reins automatically. Not so with people.

If it was a one or the other scenario, I would say make 'unhitch all' affect visible followers, not mounts.

+1
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Tisiphone on July 15, 2017, 07:15:29 AM
Yeah, the follow thing is pretty annoying. I drag/get dragged by people a lot. Conversely, I've never had a need to unhitch all my mounts at once. Besides, if I leave a mount behind, I drop the reins automatically. Not so with people.

Not sure I like this idea, but how about, if you are ever out of the same room as someone, you stop following them? It seems potentially inconvenient for those 'we all got separated in the desert' moments, but then again I imagine many people are like me - I compulsively type 'follow <leader>' once I'm back in the same room again, despite the fact that it's technically unnecessary, so I wouldn't notice much disadvantage.

That way, if someone manages to escape your shadow*, or goes over a cliff, or is done having a meeting with you and goes away only to walk past an RL hour and a half later when you forgot to 'follow self', you won't just pick them back up automatically.

*In this case you probably should, I think. Oh well.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on July 15, 2017, 09:46:06 AM
This is why I prefer to lead, and not follow. In most cases - I'll remember to unhitch, or ask everyone else to stop following, if I plan on doing something other than whatever it was that made them follow me in the first place. But SO MANY TIMES I follow the leader of the group, and they start wandering for who the hell knows what reason, when we were following for some completely different reason. If they're too fast for me to type "follow self" I might just type SOUTH... so that I stop following them while they keep moving west or whatever. But it doesn't always work out that way.  Or worse - I'll be following Amos - who then forgets I'm following him, and he hooks up with and starts following Malik, who has plans that have nothing to do with me, and while I'm waying someone because Amos asked me to - Malik starts dragging us all over creation and the command delay prevents me from giving the way message OR stop following, til we're halfway across the city.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Harmless on July 15, 2017, 09:52:01 AM
I can flee self to escape a shadow? Interesting, didnt know that, and I have played for years.

Flee self always seemed like a command useful mostly for getting yo ass killed in a situation full of danger to me; run off a cliff, bump into the line of sight of an aggressive beast, etc.

And I agree that a command to ditch all followers would be a handy addition and doesn't seem like it would be prone to much abuse. Anything that saves headaches and typing struggles is a good thing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on July 17, 2017, 10:58:41 PM

http://armageddon.org/help/view/chase (http://armageddon.org/help/view/chase)

This is AWESOME!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on September 13, 2017, 09:30:38 AM
Tools degrade slower, now? Aw.

I guess if you have an awesome quality tool, it probably shouldn't be mangled and useless after you fail to polish a gemstone five times.

I can put scan and listen into my prompt? Usually I know just by how much stun I have left, but I don't always remember to check it! Awesome!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: 650Booger on September 13, 2017, 03:23:42 PM
no delay on pick checks will make some folks very happy!  not me though.  I swear.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on September 13, 2017, 03:32:31 PM
no delay on pick checks will make some folks very happy!  not me though.  I swear.

Hoping it cuts down on the "pick flower plant" .... wait.... wait.... wait..... wait... wait... OH MAN THATS THE WRONG SYNTAX
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on September 13, 2017, 07:57:39 PM
Quote from: Nessalin
-Prompt will now take %p as an argument to indicate that Scan is active (when Scan is turned off nothing is displayed).
-Prompt will now take %P as an argument to indicate that Listen is active (when Listen is turned off nothing is displayed).

Nice!

Quote from: Nessalin
-Typing 'prompt' alone will now output your character's current prompt settings.

(http://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/Holy+crap+this+is+amazing+_019b536b8def1acec0ab2f66ce11537d.jpg)

(My prompt is three lines long.  Recreating it is the worst part of every new character.)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on September 13, 2017, 08:33:07 PM
This week's changes were mined almost entirely from the bugs/ideas entries that players type in game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dahlia on September 13, 2017, 10:16:25 PM
Thank you Nessalin!  These changes are amazingly helpful!   ;D
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on September 29, 2017, 06:38:22 PM
So City skills are now criminal skills? Even though vasts portions of the populations that have them are using those skills somewhat legally, if not completely so?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on September 29, 2017, 06:41:11 PM
So City skills are now criminal skills? Even though vasts portions of the populations that have them are using those skills somewhat legally, if not completely so?

I feel like this needs more context, because the only thing I THINK you're talking about is the new Chase code?

Nevermind, I see it.

Quote from: Brokkr
Quick Update!

I wanted to let folks know that this project has not fallen by the wayside.

On taking up some of the work the first thing I did was a corporate style re-org to rename the home advantages.  What used to be called city, wilderness and general we are now calling criminal, wilderness and city, in order to better reflect the underlying competencies and chunks of population, without changing anything about the underlying structure!

After this impressive win, I took a break for a few weeks.

But seriously, work progresses.  I'm going to leave this topic locked for now, will reopen when there is more to share!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on September 29, 2017, 06:43:21 PM
That all being said, I think its just reorganizing some of the "general" skills into "criminal". Steal is a criminal skill, but I don't think it was categorized as a "city" skill before.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on September 30, 2017, 03:20:40 AM
Actually just the opposite.  "City" was populated with skills like steal, pick, sneak, etc. that were, you know, typically used by criminals, although not exclusively so.  But we can discuss later, when there is more to discuss than just labeling the categories in a way such that you have a better idea of the type of skills in them.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on October 17, 2017, 05:05:04 PM
This thread is only for discussion of release notes made.  Not all staff announcements.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on October 23, 2017, 11:04:41 AM
OMG, this most recent release notes... mind BLOWN. Good stuff!

EDIT: No, I'm not joking, these are good changes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on October 23, 2017, 11:59:17 AM
Quote
-Modification to make it so a character wouldn't be 'caught' when latching and unlatching their own gear.

Does this mean there will be no fails with it, as well?  This could be detrimental to some who don't use it for thievery, with no way to improve.

If I'm misreading the change, just...play a fiddle at me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on October 23, 2017, 12:12:27 PM
nerf thieves
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on October 23, 2017, 01:05:54 PM
nerf thieves

Not sure if that was tongue in cheek at me or not, but in explanation, there is at least one branch out of sleight of hand for non-thieving class.  So if they can't improve, then that becomes...problematic.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on October 23, 2017, 02:32:04 PM
Armaddict likes to watch. Although, he does bring up a valid point, however, latching and unlatching are relatively new features, and paths existed before for skilling up.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on October 23, 2017, 05:01:35 PM
If it’s possible without giving too much of the mechanics away, can we get a little more detail about this:

Quote from: Nathvaan
-Modification to add more detailed logging with regards to criminal behavior.

I’m kind of assuming this is in regards to IC criminal behavior.  If so, what prompted the change?  Is this an anti-code abuse measure, or a realism measure, or just for clan staff awareness, or...?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on October 23, 2017, 06:33:04 PM
Quote
-Modification to make it so a character wouldn't be 'caught' when latching and unlatching their own gear.

Does this mean there will be no fails with it, as well?  This could be detrimental to some who don't use it for thievery, with no way to improve.

If I'm misreading the change, just...play a fiddle at me.

Side question, does this mean that I can latch/unlatch my gear successfully without an equivalent skill?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Aruven on October 23, 2017, 07:01:36 PM
Prompt customizations ; Epic!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: evilcabbage on October 23, 2017, 08:57:37 PM
i love reading release notes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on October 24, 2017, 07:31:08 AM
... This could be detrimental to some who don't use it for thievery, with no way to improve. ...

Even assuming that you can't fail while latching/unlatching your own gear, there are other sleight of hand (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Skill%20Sleight%20Of%20Hand) skills, such as palm and slip.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jihelu on October 24, 2017, 10:16:11 AM
"Does this mean there will be no fails with it, as well?  This could be detrimental to some who don't use it for thievery, with no way to improve."
How does being able to open your own gear without being tackled mean you can't fail?
You are also aware silently drawing weapons, taking items out of your own pack (Opening your pack was the only way to get tackled), and opening and closing things also use the sleight of hand skill and will not get you crim coded?


"Side question, does this mean that I can latch/unlatch my gear successfully without an equivalent skill?"
I don't know if lacking sleight of hand will let you attempt sleight of hand abilities, but if you can then there is always a chance. A low as fuck chance, but a chance. If I recall not having steal makes stealing impossible so it could be like that.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ChibiTama on October 24, 2017, 02:30:34 PM
I never had an issue with latching/unlatching as long as I didn't use 'unlatch talia pack'. I just used 'unlatch pack'.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nauta on October 24, 2017, 02:38:57 PM
Quote
-Modification to make it so a character wouldn't be 'caught' when latching and unlatching their own gear.

Does this mean there will be no fails with it, as well?  This could be detrimental to some who don't use it for thievery, with no way to improve.

If I'm misreading the change, just...play a fiddle at me.

Side question, does this mean that I can latch/unlatch my gear successfully without an equivalent skill?

Isn't the writing on the tin on this one?  Used to be that when you unlatch your own pouch, and fail, some half-giant soldier nearby would grab you and toss you into jail.  Sounds like they fixed this.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on October 24, 2017, 04:02:02 PM
Quote
-Modification to make it so a character wouldn't be 'caught' when latching and unlatching their own gear.
Does this mean there will be no fails with it, as well?  This could be detrimental to some who don't use it for thievery, with no way to improve.
If I'm misreading the change, just...play a fiddle at me.
Side question, does this mean that I can latch/unlatch my gear successfully without an equivalent skill?
Isn't the writing on the tin on this one?  Used to be that when you unlatch your own pouch, and fail, some half-giant soldier nearby would grab you and toss you into jail.  Sounds like they fixed this.

Oh, this is crim code related. I didn't realize unlatching your own gear could trigger guards, and I've been done it on a few characters without reprecussion. I guess I was just lucky, because I honestly thought unlatching your own stuff just didn't trigger crim code.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on October 24, 2017, 04:39:13 PM
And now it won't! (It was an issue in one specific locale in the game, so if you weren't there, you wouldn't have noticed it).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on October 24, 2017, 06:13:05 PM
And now it won't! (It was an issue in one specific locale in the game, so if you weren't there, you wouldn't have noticed it).

It's tragically hilarious when it happens in areas where the guards DON'T ask why the jail can't be moved closer to the criminals.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on October 25, 2017, 04:36:47 PM
That was the nature of my question, guys.  I was trying to make sure that wasn't overlooked, because these are purposely vague.  I wanted to know if 'This doesn't happen anymore' translated to failures no longer occurring in the way that makes the skill advance.

I even gave permission to give me the violin if, codewise, it was a silly concern.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on October 26, 2017, 09:54:16 AM
If it’s possible without giving too much of the mechanics away, can we get a little more detail about this:

Quote from: Nathvaan
-Modification to add more detailed logging with regards to criminal behavior.

I’m kind of assuming this is in regards to IC criminal behavior.  If so, what prompted the change?  Is this an anti-code abuse measure, or a realism measure, or just for clan staff awareness, or...?

Yes, IC criminal behavior and staff awareness for sure. The logging that was in place didn't fully indicate what crime was committed as well as a few other useful tidbits.  Basically, adding this to the logging will make it easier for Admin staff members to research who did what crime, when and where etc.
 
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: evilcabbage on October 26, 2017, 10:01:01 AM
If it’s possible without giving too much of the mechanics away, can we get a little more detail about this:

Quote from: Nathvaan
-Modification to add more detailed logging with regards to criminal behavior.

I’m kind of assuming this is in regards to IC criminal behavior.  If so, what prompted the change?  Is this an anti-code abuse measure, or a realism measure, or just for clan staff awareness, or...?

Yes, IC criminal behavior and staff awareness for sure. The logging that was in place didn't fully indicate what crime was committed as well as a few other useful tidbits.  Basically, adding this to the logging will make it easier for Admin staff members to research who did what crime, when and where etc.

well that sounds just fucking useful! well done there!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on October 26, 2017, 08:50:04 PM
Quote
-Modification to make it so a character wouldn't be 'caught' when latching and unlatching their own gear.

Does this mean there will be no fails with it, as well?  This could be detrimental to some who don't use it for thievery, with no way to improve.

If I'm misreading the change, just...play a fiddle at me.

Side question, does this mean that I can latch/unlatch my gear successfully without an equivalent skill?

To address all the questions about latch/unlatching minor change.  It shouldn't effect skill progression in any way unless you were using latch and unlatch on yourself to skill up by catching yourself, that's just silly.  There is no intent in any way to nerf thieves but as stated to make sure that people don't get arrested by catching themselves doing sneaky things.  If it turns out that there are unexpected side effects, rest assured the code will be tweaked a bit more as needed.

While we all love a chase scene with the Benny Hill theme in the background it's a bit absurd to catch yourself! (I literally sometimes start playing that theme when the Law starts chasing a criminal and I am watching!)

This change is akin to the code that disallows you to steal coins from yourself.

Hope that clarifies things!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on October 26, 2017, 09:13:28 PM
Ohhh, I think I just read it in a different way.

I thought it was saying no one -else- could notice when you were latching and unlatching your own gear, which made it sound like failures were gone unless you were using it on someone else.

MAH BAD.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on October 27, 2017, 08:17:27 PM
Yes, IC criminal behavior and staff awareness for sure. The logging that was in place didn't fully indicate what crime was committed as well as a few other useful tidbits.  Basically, adding this to the logging will make it easier for Admin staff members to research who did what crime, when and where etc.

Ah, cool.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on October 30, 2017, 03:35:50 PM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akaramu on October 30, 2017, 05:00:57 PM
The release notes look neat. I wonder if it will become possible for resourceful Indies to acquire wagons at some point...  ;D
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on October 30, 2017, 06:38:32 PM
Awesome stuff.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on October 30, 2017, 07:58:14 PM
I envision guarding a wagon across the desert will be suddenly a teeny bit harder! Yay!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on October 30, 2017, 09:15:02 PM
I envision guarding a wagon across the desert will be suddenly a teeny bit harder! Yay!

using the guard command on said wagon makes more sense now!

A Mekillot attacks a wagon
A day-1 runner leaps to a wagons protection!

A day-1 runner rolls a new pc
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: SuchDragonWow on October 31, 2017, 02:53:23 AM
I like the prompt updates.  Thanks for those.  If it's no hassle, it'd be cool to also have:

Hunger
Thirst
What you're watching
Cloaked
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: HavokBlue on October 31, 2017, 05:13:30 AM
I like the direction of the wagon code updates. I hope it is indicative of broader plans to possibly make wagons more accessible to PCs who can afford them. If they're not invincible death fortresses, it opens up a lot of possibilities.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on October 31, 2017, 07:29:43 AM
I like the prompt updates.  Thanks for those.  If it's no hassle, it'd be cool to also have:

Hunger
Thirst
What you're watching
Cloaked

Level of drunkenness
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ShaLeah on October 31, 2017, 08:59:35 AM
I envision guarding a wagon across the desert will be suddenly a teeny bit harder! Yay!

using the guard command on said wagon makes more sense now!

A Mekillot attacks a wagon
A day-1 runner leaps to a wagons protection!

A day-1 runner rolls a new pc

Wagons can now be attached?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pale Horse on October 31, 2017, 09:51:09 AM
I envision guarding a wagon across the desert will be suddenly a teeny bit harder! Yay!

using the guard command on said wagon makes more sense now!

A Mekillot attacks a wagon
A day-1 runner leaps to a wagons protection!

A day-1 runner rolls a new pc

Wagons can now be attached?

They're the newest, latest accessory put out by Kadius.  Never show up to a party without one.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ShaLeah on October 31, 2017, 10:07:15 AM
I envision guarding a wagon across the desert will be suddenly a teeny bit harder! Yay!

using the guard command on said wagon makes more sense now!

A Mekillot attacks a wagon
A day-1 runner leaps to a wagons protection!

A day-1 runner rolls a new pc

Wagons can now be attached?

They're the newest, latest accessory put out by Kadius.  Never show up to a party without one.

Touche.

Attacked, I meant ATTACKED obviously. Brat.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on October 31, 2017, 10:09:57 AM
To answer your question though: no

By the notes, it sounds like a standard wear and tear will occur on wagons and require actual repairs. Currently by an NPC script, hopefully soon by a PC as well.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Draechen on November 02, 2017, 12:56:03 PM
With regard to the skill level perceived drop, does that mean a guild that could at one point have submitted a custom craft will no longer be able to?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on November 02, 2017, 01:08:39 PM
With regard to the skill level perceived drop, does that mean a guild that could at one point have submitted a custom craft will no longer be able to?

Good question!  Those that could submit a custom craft in the past can continue doing so.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: HavokBlue on November 02, 2017, 03:59:42 PM
To answer your question though: no

By the notes, it sounds like a standard wear and tear will occur on wagons and require actual repairs. Currently by an NPC script, hopefully soon by a PC as well.

My reading is that this could be used to simulate wear and tear but will more likely be used DM style to apply damage to a wagon that suffers a mekillot attack, or a gith fire bomb. This makes wagons far more "playable" because they stop being invulnerable and staff don't have to rewrite room descriptions every time they want to simulate wagon damage.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on November 02, 2017, 04:10:48 PM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on November 02, 2017, 07:20:08 PM
Would the wagon repair code be applicable to any of the currently wrecked wagons in the game? I'm meaning the ones littering the base of the Shield Wall, and the others scattered around. While it'd be sad and tragic to lose any of them, as they provide shelter for all kinds of interesting people and encounters, it'd be cool to have the possibility of repairing or salvaging one's own wagon should it accidentally fall into a shallow sinkhole, or something.

If they can be repaired, then maybe the others become stationary once they break down.
If the wagons happen to move around every now and then that only sounds like a good thing to me.
If Kadius repairs them all and leaves them in their wagon yard to stagnate for 50 ic years, that sounds terrible.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on November 02, 2017, 10:08:15 PM
Fredd:

Protector has master shield use.
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Protector
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on November 02, 2017, 10:19:37 PM
My understanding is that skills have ALWAYS been standardized to the maximum value a character can attain. So a shield use value of '50' will always show as master for someone who has a 50/50 in it. Protector had master shield not because protector went to 100, but because it went close enough to warrior maximum shield use to also qualify as master. What is happening now is that, with the new additional guilds, the maximums are changing. So a new guild is coming in with slashing that caps at, say, 100 instead of 90, now everyone who was at journeyman might see themselves back down at apprentice because their skill level is being divided by the new maximum, not the old one.

The actual way skills are being calculated didn't change, just the hypothetical denominators as new caps are put in for guilds we don't have yet. Shield use hasn't dropped under master for me likely because the new guilds still have the same cap for Shield Use.

Or maybe I'm totally wrong.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: seidhr on November 03, 2017, 12:03:00 AM
My understanding is that skills have ALWAYS been standardized to the maximum value a character can attain. So a shield use value of '50' will always show as master for someone who has a 50/50 in it. Protector had master shield not because protector went to 100, but because it went close enough to warrior maximum shield use to also qualify as master. What is happening now is that, with the new additional guilds, the maximums are changing. So a new guild is coming in with slashing that caps at, say, 100 instead of 90, now everyone who was at journeyman might see themselves back down at apprentice because their skill level is being divided by the new maximum, not the old one.

The actual way skills are being calculated didn't change, just the hypothetical denominators as new caps are put in for guilds we don't have yet. Shield use hasn't dropped under master for me likely because the new guilds still have the same cap for Shield Use.

Or maybe I'm totally wrong.

On the contrary, you are quite accurate.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Mercy on November 03, 2017, 01:01:54 AM
My understanding is that skills have ALWAYS been standardized to the maximum value a character can attain. So a shield use value of '50' will always show as master for someone who has a 50/50 in it. Protector had master shield not because protector went to 100, but because it went close enough to warrior maximum shield use to also qualify as master. What is happening now is that, with the new additional guilds, the maximums are changing. So a new guild is coming in with slashing that caps at, say, 100 instead of 90, now everyone who was at journeyman might see themselves back down at apprentice because their skill level is being divided by the new maximum, not the old one.

The actual way skills are being calculated didn't change, just the hypothetical denominators as new caps are put in for guilds we don't have yet. Shield use hasn't dropped under master for me likely because the new guilds still have the same cap for Shield Use.

Or maybe I'm totally wrong.

On the contrary, you are quite accurate.

I am confused by this.

If a guild caps out at 50 shield use, but the cap for shield use in the game is 90, wouldn't 50 NOT show as master when you achieve 50 shield use? It'll just stop increasing in skill level name. Journeyman or whatever it is.

If one person's shield use has decreased, wouldn't that mean shield use has been given a new cap (e.g. 90 to 95) during this change. Not that another guild also has been given the cap of 90? Just because master hasn't gone down for some, it doesn't mean they still are at the total cap across the game, just close enough to still show as master? Or can that not be clarified? I'm assuming master doesn't happen at 90/90, but within a range of 90 so there's still room for improvement even though you are the best of the best, skill-wise.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on November 03, 2017, 01:06:41 AM
If the max is 90, master would show up at I assume somewhere around 80.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on November 03, 2017, 01:47:13 AM
Apprentice is about 20% of global maximum

Journeyman is about 40%

Advanced is about 60%

Master is about 80%

You can be "master" and still kinda suck.  E.g. shield use and parry seem to be capped hella low even for warriors (even though they presumably hold the global maxima...because you can master them in a hot minute compared to everything else), and some guilds are capped -exactly- at the master point.  E.g. "master" hide for a pickpocket is substantially less useful than "master" hide for a burglar.

If the global shield use cap is at like...50%, then subguild protector could have a cap anywhere from 40% to 50% and still be "master."  If the global cap for a particular skill is 100%, you could be 20 points off the maximum and still be a "master," but obviously 20 points difference is a yuuuuuge chaaaaaasm of playability for some skills, especially skills like "steal," where failure = instant, permanent PC aggro.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vex on November 03, 2017, 02:27:37 AM
Does this mean, the potential for some guilds has gone up?

Or, should we anticipate karma-required guilds, that are more powerful than normal ones?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on November 03, 2017, 02:54:23 AM
Does this mean, the potential for some guilds has gone up?

Or, should we anticipate karma-required guilds, that are more powerful than normal ones?

The potential for some skills for some of the new hybrid-system guilds is higher than the current highest points for existing guilds.

I've never read anything about Staff making any of these mundane hybrid-system guilds karma-required.

My guess is that they're slightly beefing the weapon skill caps and/or parry/shield use caps on whatever the Tanky McTankface class is going to be, but...that's just a guess.  (Weapon skills are already highly compressed, so it would make sense to spread them out a bit to the upside in order to provide real value for the specialists without nerfing non-specialists and having to re-balance every damn mob in the game to account for it.  Currently, there isn't a whole lot of difference between a max warrior and a max ranger in terms of raw melee PVE DPS.)

P.S. Staff this is also a suggestion if that's not what is already happening.  ;)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on November 03, 2017, 11:46:53 AM
My understanding is that skills have ALWAYS been standardized to the maximum value a character can attain. So a shield use value of '50' will always show as master for someone who has a 50/50 in it. Protector had master shield not because protector went to 100, but because it went close enough to warrior maximum shield use to also qualify as master. What is happening now is that, with the new additional guilds, the maximums are changing. So a new guild is coming in with slashing that caps at, say, 100 instead of 90, now everyone who was at journeyman might see themselves back down at apprentice because their skill level is being divided by the new maximum, not the old one.

The actual way skills are being calculated didn't change, just the hypothetical denominators as new caps are put in for guilds we don't have yet. Shield use hasn't dropped under master for me likely because the new guilds still have the same cap for Shield Use.

Or maybe I'm totally wrong.

Mostly right.  If only you didn't use the word "ALWAYS" you would have been good.  When visible skill levels were implemented, it was April Fools day, and who knows what those skill levels are based on!

But the week after April Fools day when they did them for real, they were all based off the same cap for all skills.  This was confusing, because a guild that was the absolute best at a skill might not see a skill level of 'master', which didn't make a lot of sense.  So it was changed after four or five days to be based off the highest skill level any guild obtained, becoming a relative measure to all other PCs, rather than an absolute measure on a 100 scale.

As for the questions, sounds like we need an AMA on the new classes!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on November 05, 2017, 01:12:59 AM
Am I right in assuming this means skill NAME progression is slower? Like, getting from Journeyman to Advanced should take longer now, right?

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on November 05, 2017, 01:25:32 AM
Am I right in assuming this means skill NAME progression is slower? Like, getting from Journeyman to Advanced should take longer now, right?

For some skills, probably. Wheres before, "skinning" might've been Advanced at 60/100, now it is "advanced" at 75/100. So you'd have to get 15 more points or skillups or whatever before you see the new nomenclature.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on November 06, 2017, 07:26:44 PM
Are all the Class/Skill Names definite or just working names for now?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miggy on November 06, 2017, 08:13:39 PM
Maybe it's just wishful thinking... but it seems like with all those different 'classes' now available, there should be lots of new skills added to the mix. Sounds like a lot of fun to me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on November 11, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
"-bugfix in how offense / defense was calculated"

I'm incredibly curious what this MEANS, but I'm guessing it will be a find out IG thing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: TheGoose on November 11, 2017, 11:12:37 AM
"-bugfix in how offense / defense was calculated"

I'm incredibly curious what this MEANS, but I'm guessing it will be a find out IG thing.

Kinda ominous, yeah? Kinda like going to yr pool and seeing a new sign reading 'tiny sharks expanded.'

...There were sharks? Tiny ones? Does this mean they're gone now? Or are there more of them? Or are they bigger now?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on November 11, 2017, 11:22:40 AM
Describe relative positions of ovals originating from a real algebraic curve and as limit cycles of a polynomial vector field on the plane.  Then you will have your answer.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on November 11, 2017, 11:35:00 AM
"-bugfix in how offense / defense was calculated"

I'm incredibly curious what this MEANS, but I'm guessing it will be a find out IG thing.

Kinda ominous, yeah? Kinda like going to yr pool and seeing a new sign reading 'tiny sharks expanded.'

...There were sharks? Tiny ones? Does this mean they're gone now? Or are there more of them? Or are they bigger now?

I also feel like that line could use expanding. Does that change combat in any way? Are Jozhals now the deadliest beasts in the land?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Is Friday on November 11, 2017, 11:37:38 AM
Finally, my PCs can get nipple tattoos.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on November 11, 2017, 12:14:37 PM
Describe relative positions of ovals originating from a real algebraic curve and as limit cycles of a polynomial vector field on the plane.  Then you will have your answer.

42

I'm looking forward to seeing what kinds of new options we have for character creation!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on November 11, 2017, 12:25:03 PM
Finally, my PCs can get nipple tattoos.

My thoughts precisely.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on November 11, 2017, 01:40:34 PM
"-bugfix in how offense / defense was calculated"

I'm incredibly curious what this MEANS, but I'm guessing it will be a find out IG thing.

Typically when we list something as a bugfix it is, indeed, fixing a bug.  In this case it is something that looked to be miscalculating related to the guild revamp project so there shouldn't be any noticeable difference other than things are 'working as normal'.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kankfly on November 12, 2017, 05:37:12 AM
Quote
-added new location descriptions (tattoo/scar/etc...) for
  nipples
  eyebrows
  navel
  pelvis
  tongue
  lips

Does this include right ear and left ear?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on November 12, 2017, 11:26:29 AM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on November 12, 2017, 03:30:07 PM
I'd be okay with no-hands riding going away with few exceptions, but I know there would be those players who just only played those exceptions from then on with the insistence that it was the only state of viability.

However, yes, there were warnings put up with all this that there could be effects on skills while they were setting things up.  If it's permanent, I'd rather the rules be switched.  Riding with a shield is historically significant because of its feasibility and usefulness in mounted combat.  Riding with a bow is historically significant.  Riding as a mounted dual wielding berserker is not...so if we're gonna make it impossible for one style, lets at least make it the one that makes sense.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on November 12, 2017, 03:36:55 PM
I'd be okay with no-hands riding going away with few exceptions, but I know there would be those players who just only played those exceptions from then on with the insistence that it was the only state of viability.

However, yes, there were warnings put up with all this that there could be effects on skills while they were setting things up.  If it's permanent, I'd rather the rules be switched.  Riding with a shield is historically significant because of its feasibility and usefulness in mounted combat.  Riding with a bow is historically significant.  Riding as a mounted dual wielding berserker is not...so if we're gonna make it impossible for one style, lets at least make it the one that makes sense.

10000% this.

Riding with a shield, is a time honored tradition in both the real world, and the Zalanthan world. Dual wielding? Not usually done in the real world but okay sure, fighting mounted while dual wielding? I would say stupendously difficult to do efficiently, but sure, lets go with it being possible.

I wouldnt care so much if nohands ride was completely removed, but dont remove only half of it. (the realistic half)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on November 12, 2017, 05:11:30 PM
Question, can you ride with just a shield, and draw your weapon as needed?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on November 12, 2017, 05:32:39 PM
Question, can you ride with just a shield, and draw your weapon as needed?

I just logged in to test this, and you can still single-hand a shield and draw as necessary. The only issue then is that if you end up getting the worse end of the fight, you have to sheath your weapon before fleeing, presumably, or you will not move. However, this is at least livable for me.

I still am a bit concerned that this is happening after we were assured that the viability of older classes would not be undermined by new classes coming in, but in my opinion, this is inconvenient but not ruinous.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on November 12, 2017, 06:05:44 PM
Elves approve.

In response to the last post, not to be snarky, but for a long  time the mounted races, in melee combat, have had their cake and eaten it too. I understand it may be frustrating, but some of us have the world's smallest violin playing in the back of our heads. I understand it's less than ideal, and this makes encountering enemies, both PCs, and NPCs, in the wild more difficult... but the mounted races still have a huge set of advantages, which, as someone said, is kind of how it ought to be.

EDIT: Thanks for testing that, btw. Glad it's livable and not game-breaking. I do see your point.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on November 12, 2017, 07:21:37 PM
Question, can you ride with just a shield, and draw your weapon as needed?

I just logged in to test this, and you can still single-hand a shield and draw as necessary. The only issue then is that if you end up getting the worse end of the fight, you have to sheath your weapon before fleeing, presumably, or you will not move. However, this is at least livable for me.

I still am a bit concerned that this is happening after we were assured that the viability of older classes would not be undermined by new classes coming in, but in my opinion, this is inconvenient but not ruinous.

It's more a pain in the butt than ruinous. But it's still annoying to not get an announcement of it happening and having to figure it out. My current PC was able to ride with a shield and weapon for the last few months, so to suddenly not be able to is taking some adjustment.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on November 12, 2017, 07:32:41 PM
Moderated a few posts that were a tad snarky, others that varied between mis-leading and outright wrong, and others that delved a bit too deeply into uninformed opinions of game mechanics.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on November 12, 2017, 07:33:55 PM
Along with some other fixes identified from play testing, tomorrow should revert the functionality of riding with 0, 1, and 2 hands free for classic guilds to what it was before.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Feco on November 12, 2017, 07:52:11 PM
(bummer!)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: evilcabbage on November 12, 2017, 07:57:16 PM
(i can read these you know.)

good to see that this is being fixed and is clearly a bug, not the end of the world some people made it out to be. was this just an unintentional side effect of the new guilds?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on November 12, 2017, 08:15:38 PM
Along with some other fixes identified from play testing, tomorrow should revert the functionality of riding with 0, 1, and 2 hands free for classic guilds to what it was before.

Thank you!

I figured it had something to do with the new guilds and wasn't a feature, per se.

I'm bummed that I can't try these new guilds in the beta...You hear that ginka? It's an invitation to RoCk!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: evilcabbage on November 16, 2017, 04:41:51 PM
removed code that hasn't been used in 20 years? can you tell us what it was? was it SPOOOOOOOOKY?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on November 16, 2017, 07:10:16 PM
removed code that hasn't been used in 20 years? can you tell us what it was? was it SPOOOOOOOOKY?

Nothing exiting.  We used to define cities by blocks of hard coded room numbers, then switched to having properties on rooms.  All the old code was still there.  Stuff like that.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on November 23, 2017, 02:06:32 PM
Finding spice decay to be a frustrating concept, though I suppose realistic. I'll never get to play a dwarf who builds a house out of bricks of tho now... but it makes sense. Illicit drugs and medicines do decay over time, although, much slower than foods, I guess due to oxidation and weathering from humidity and the like. I can only hope they decay veeeeery slowly, but that's up to the concept the staff is working with.

A concern regarding spice decay: The source of spice is patches of it naturally found under the sand. It would seem to me that something found in such a manner would be resistant to rotting, and possibly the refined stuff being even more resistant, if not outright immune (finally settling the debate as to how refined spice is superior to raw spice, giving a coded reason).

An idea to facilitate storage and sale of spice in a world where spice rots may be advanced packaging methods whereby Kurac would have determined an effective way to store bricks, perhaps wrapping them in paper and coating the brick in wax... This would make it possible to stockpile and transport, until unwrapped and shaven off, at which point it would begin to degrade. Unsure if that is in line with staff's intention with this change, just musing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Morrolan on November 23, 2017, 02:25:10 PM
Stuff

+1
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on November 23, 2017, 02:41:31 PM
Yeah, having containers designed for Spice transport/storage (wrappings, wax-sealed boxes, etc.) sounds like a neat new addition to the Kuraci Arsenal for spice sales.

It'd be cool to see more adverse affects from using raw spice -- mutations, disease, or shorter lifespans. But I suppose that can mostly be RP'd by those living in Red Storm and using raw spice the most often.

I view refined spice vs unrefined spice as Cocaine vs Crack. It's the same substance, just cut with different stuff to make it worth more, worth less, and detrimental / not-as-detrimental.

More than anything i'd love for the 'addiction code' to output a variety of echoes depending on the spice you are addicted to. So if you are addicted to Thodeliv, your addiction presents as general laziness and yawning, and muscle atrophy sort of 'feels' and personalized echoes. If you are addicted to Krelez, you begin to act like a tweaker, getting hyper feels and paranoia. Addicted to Methelinoc, you begin to feel hazy, stupid, and forgetful. The current 'spam you with the come down message' doesn't do much in the way of encouraging RP -- It just makes you want to stop using to make the annoyance of the spammed messages cropping up every 5-10 minutes.

Attention to spice code makes me happy though, and I love that spice decays -- I think it's a great step towards making it a commodity to use and to seek out, rather than save up for a rainy day. It does present an interesting issue with Kemen...I suppose use it or lose it, or keep it on your person so it doesn't decay :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on November 23, 2017, 02:50:06 PM
Spice kits have been a part of this game for the better part of a decade, if not longer. You may find that properly containing your spice in containers designed to hold spice, like the aforementioned, might significantly increase the lifespan on any spice you may have - though, in a pinch, any container will do a half decent job.

Suffice it to say there is going to be -plenty- of time to use your spice so long as you aren't leaving it on the rug at home.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on November 23, 2017, 03:09:19 PM
Spice kits have been a part of this game for the better part of a decade, if not longer. You may find that properly containing your spice in containers designed to hold spice, like the aforementioned, might significantly increase the lifespan on any spice you may have - though, in a pinch, any container will do a half decent job.

Suffice it to say there is going to be -plenty- of time to use your spice so long as you aren't leaving it on the rug at home.

I imagine the 'wrappings' that Kurac/others sell would be appropriate containers too?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on November 23, 2017, 04:04:26 PM
in a pinch,

Heh. Heh heh heh. Heheheheh.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on November 23, 2017, 11:52:14 PM
What was the point of changing spice to decay?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grogerif on November 24, 2017, 01:11:35 AM
What was the point of changing spice to decay?

I'm betting it's use it or lose it.  Rather then just having spice sitting forever, it'll be sold, used or planted on some poor schmuck.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on November 24, 2017, 01:22:54 AM
The idea behind it was to better simulate supply and demand. Previously the demand for spice was very low because the people who could afford spice regularly usually could just find a cache of spice hidden around their estate that would last them and their next three successors the rest of their playtime. On the other end of the scale, the people who couldn't get spice on the regular but still puff puffed from time to time shouldn't see a huge difference because they don't tend to stockpile so much that they can't use it in the decay period.

Ideally, this will mean that people who can afford spice and should want spice now have a reason to get in contact with three clans specifically dedicated to getting spice into Allanak for consumption, and create new plots which were minimal and superficial - at best - and make them actually things that people may want to do.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LucildaHunta on November 24, 2017, 08:47:38 AM
Stuff...

Can’t argue with any of that!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on November 24, 2017, 09:17:00 AM
At first glance I didn't really agree with spice decay, after thinking on it reading Akariel's post, it makes sense.  More smuggling sounds like a good idea after all.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: WarriorPoet on November 24, 2017, 11:33:44 AM
I love the changes to spice. Having played a spice hustler and been frustrated as hell, this is a good thing.

SPICE MUST FLOW. So smoke more of it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bushranger on November 24, 2017, 11:49:04 AM
Smoke spice every day!
(https://memegenerator.net/img/images/8409255.jpg)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Is Friday on November 24, 2017, 12:46:35 PM
Thanks for the explanation. Good change.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kialae on November 24, 2017, 06:27:34 PM
I enjoy anything which stimulates the market. Armor degradation, food degradation, now spice degradation. All good moves by staff.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on November 26, 2017, 05:12:33 PM
I don't like decay. If feels like instead of using our props to facilitate roleplay we're using our props force it. It shouldn't be an OOC hassle to represent parts of the game world.

Now instead of having props that that help make a scene or to explain my character, I have to fully commit playtime to the upkeep of that prop. This just pushes me away from wanting to make a character who is a spice addict.

This would all be fine if that actually led to more interesting roleplay. Like, oh your shit decayed, so now you have to go seek out a PC dealer and re-up, yay more roleplay opportunity! Sadly that isn't how it usually works in game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Malken on November 26, 2017, 05:51:25 PM
I don't like decay. If feels like instead of using our props to facilitate roleplay we're using our props force it. It shouldn't be an OOC hassle to represent parts of the game world.

Now instead of having props that that help make a scene or to explain my character, I have to fully commit playtime to the upkeep of that prop. This just pushes me away from wanting to make a character who is a spice addict.

This would all be fine if that actually led to more interesting roleplay. Like, oh your shit decayed, so now you have to go seek out a PC dealer and re-up, yay more roleplay opportunity! Sadly that isn't how it usually works in game.

If you're a spice addict, spice decay shouldn't affect you at all ;p

And it -does- lead to more interesting roleplay for those who are in the business of selling/buying spice.

Money sink is always a good thing, especially in a game like Armageddon where making money is ridiculously easy.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on November 27, 2017, 05:34:44 AM
Am I the only one who thinks the decay rate is incredibly fast?

Maybe I’m doing something wrong, but some spice that was in a worn container (though not a spice specific one) has already changed descriptive words twice since the announcement (I’m not quite sure what they all mean yet), and my playtimes are not super high.  I have seen food that is many times as old not decay at all during that same period.

If I had to guess, I would say it went from normal to state 1 to state 2 in the space of about 3 RL hours played.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on November 27, 2017, 06:27:34 AM
Yeah I like the idea of decay but IMO it should be very slow, and right now it seems SUPER fast. The speed of the decay particularly hurts tribals who like to put things in communal spaces for everyone to share rather than hoarding spice on their person.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ShaiHulud on November 27, 2017, 07:24:37 AM
I'll go ahead and second what sleepyhead said. I like the idea, but it seems to decay faster than food. Even in my case and kit designed for spice.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on November 27, 2017, 07:34:25 AM
Yeah, honestly like I've never known any drug IRL to decompose faster than food, except for if by "drug" you mean like, medicine that's a suspension injection thing where you have to mix it up and then inject it immediately. It should decay a slight bit slower than food in game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ShaiHulud on November 27, 2017, 07:40:18 AM
I smoked a tube that looked normal, but turned rock-hard before the last puff..
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: whitt on November 27, 2017, 11:13:07 AM
I smoked a tube that looked normal, but turned rock-hard before the last puff..

giggity!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grogerif on November 27, 2017, 11:36:10 AM
keep the speedy decay. Make it last twice as long, when injested.
Problem solved, everybody gets addicted.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on November 27, 2017, 12:22:57 PM
I second that I like the idea of decay overall, but at the current rate I’m seeing, I think it reduces the ability to play some things, like: a casual spice hunter (getting 50 grains before the first ones decay could prove really difficult, unless I misunderstand the levels and how the states affect saleability), someone who uses many different types of spice but only in specific circumstances, someone who does not have regular access to a dealer (be it due to playtimes or role - if it takes RL days of time to contact a dealer, such people will never be able to throw a party with spice, because it will decay before the RPT), etc.

Also, I’m not aware of any spice specific containers available from NPCs in either Allanak (proper) or Red Storm, so it would seem to require a PC to track down Kurac ASAP, and disproportionately punish those who can’t, both now and in the future.

my playtimes are not super high.

Had to double back for the unintended pun.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on November 27, 2017, 12:30:12 PM
Spice has almost always been a "Flavor" item in the game, despite some having some serious coded advantages and disadvantages. Recently, staff have tried making it "easier" to obtain, they made it CHEAPER so people would be more open to it. Now they're adding the rot-code to it, which I think really fleshes out the idea of "I really need a pinch right now, oh man I better find someone". Unfortunately, people would rather a shiny new breastplate that protects just as well as their old breastplate but has the "shiny" keyword attached, than they would an on-demand stat-boost.

I'm down for making the effects last 90minutes/9 in game hours so that it goes from Dawn to Hunt, to Late at Night to come down. Let it rot, but make it more feasible.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on November 27, 2017, 12:31:49 PM
 Drugs go bad all the time.

But not like this. I'de like to see bad spice...Be bad for you. Make you sick.  Maybe bad tho gives you terradin. Bad krentakh makes you mul rage. ect.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bushranger on November 27, 2017, 03:31:46 PM
I have not had a chance to thoroughly test the spice decay yet but there are two things that come to mind when reading it:

a casual spice hunter (getting 50 grains before the first ones decay could prove really difficult, unless I misunderstand the levels and how the states affect saleability)

I have played characters who were solely, or mostly, spice hunters and you can go RL days between being able to go out sifting again. You have 25 grains, you need 25 more, check the weather but it's too stormy around Red Storm to see anything. These storms, especially around Red Storm, can be too fierce to see for two or three days in a row (it might have some lulls that occur during the night but you still can't see to forage then) and if you're unlucky enough to log on only during these times you can go quite a while before you can sift more.

Also, I’m not aware of any spice specific containers available from NPCs in either Allanak (proper) or Red Storm, so it would seem to require a PC to track down Kurac ASAP, and disproportionately punish those who can’t, both now and in the future.

Kron in the Kurac Warehouse has a leather spice pouch in his list of goods for sale. One. When that sells, to a pc or npc, you need to wait for another reboot. Perhaps someone could edit his merchant file and increase the number he has on offer until someone custom crafts a spice hunters bag?

My second concern is that 16 Zalanthan days is 24 hours. That seems awfully short and I fear will mean people no longer stash any spice in an apartment. It means it will become much rarer burglars breaking in to find some spice, or to plant some spice and call a Templar, as you would have to co-ordinate everything within a single day or the spice poofs. People will be logging out with their spice to preserve the timer on it. The Allanaki Vice Squad won't be able to search an apartment to find spice :(

I think increasing the decay time to about a Zalanthan month would ease a lot of things. If you only need to contact your dealer every two RL weeks you would be more comfortable leaving spice in your apartment and it would certainly give sifters plenty of time to grab up their allotment.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on November 27, 2017, 03:48:28 PM
A month would be great I think.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ShaLeah on November 27, 2017, 04:07:08 PM
I've had the same weed for years. Like 5 years. Is it as potent as it was back then? No. But I still have it and yes, it still gets me high.

I like spice decay but not in its current form. I would appreciate it so much more if it LOST potency instead. Drugs don't turn to dust, trust me and my 5yr old ganja.  Could we make the high last less time or even risk having little to NO effect if it's old depending on how old? My super rich spice addict nooble WANTS to buy that 12 year vintage off the street rat. Imagine the role-play possibilities if it's shit to smoke! Murder!

While you're at it, cure shelf life. Make it happen. So long days of people keeping the same pills in their pouches for IC years.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on November 27, 2017, 04:37:55 PM
Pills suddenly not working would shake things up to a much better degree than dying spice addicts because the spice doesn't last long enough to deliver... personally, I would think, not good. Poison cure decay can be good, but not if there's no indication of degree of rot, not if it's hastily implemented without thought of the required logistics to get a cure pouch.

That would mean, the rest of you would be entirely at my mercy if I decided to throw a knife, and that should not be a comforting thought.

EDIT: Yeah, make spice last a few years. As it stands it seems to rot almost immediately.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stark on November 27, 2017, 06:19:58 PM
The same day I read about the decaying spice, I actually found some spice (in a pouch somewhere) and thought, hm, this saves me a trip to get spice! A real life hour later, it was all oily, and the next real life day it was hard as a rock. That seems a little too quick, although getting TO spice isn't impossible, it would be VERY difficult if I was playing something like a dainty noble aide or a shy daisy of a crafter.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on November 27, 2017, 06:48:41 PM
A few years defeats the purpose. I think maybe one year, or two months, would be a good time for it to last. One month maybe - that's, what, two IRL weeks? But two days is ridiculous. Not even cakes IRL decay that fast, let alone what is basically weed/etc.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on November 27, 2017, 06:53:45 PM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: TheHandmaid on November 27, 2017, 07:16:26 PM
Two real life days is just going to encouragee me not to need or use it. I cannot play everyday and it would be unfair to hold other’s responsible for its drying out due to my unavailability for delivery.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on November 27, 2017, 08:07:18 PM
If your spice is rotting within 24 hours, you bought shitty non-Kuraci spice and unfortunately that's what you get. Unrefined, grain forms of spice will not last excessively long. And yes, this may cause a problem with the Spice Buyer NPC - Which is why Nessalin removed the 50 grain minimum to sell to him. You no longer need to wait to have 50 spices in your pouch to sell.

A single grain of spice on the floor will last, on average, 24 RL hours. If you put it in a standard backpack it should last 42.75 RL days, on average. If you are noticing a discrepancy with that please send in a request to let us know.

A single -pinch- of spice, for reference, can last 126.375 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container. That is almost half a year. The larger the amount of spice, the slower it decays. A brick of spice, for instance, can last 378 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container. That is over a RL year.

If you are noticing inconsistencies, it's possible some of the math on our end is a bit faulty and needs to be looked into. Please send in a bug request so we can take a look into it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on November 27, 2017, 08:15:07 PM
If your spice is rotting within 24 hours, you bought shitty non-Kuraci spice and unfortunately that's what you get. Unrefined, grain forms of spice will not last excessively long. And yes, this may cause a problem with the Spice Buyer NPC - Which is why Nessalin removed the 50 grain minimum to sell to him. You no longer need to wait to have 50 spices in your pouch to sell.

A single grain of spice on the floor will last, on average, 24 RL hours. If you put it in a standard backpack it should last 42.75 RL days, on average. If you are noticing a discrepancy with that please send in a request to let us know.

A single -pinch- of spice, for reference, can last 126.375 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container. That is almost half a year. The larger the amount of spice, the slower it decays. A brick of spice, for instance, can last 378 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container. That is over a RL year.

If you are noticing inconsistencies, it's possible some of the math on our end is a bit faulty and needs to be looked into. Please send in a bug request so we can take a look into it.

Well, those are good, good numbers. I guess it's just been some inconsistencies right now, that hopefully folk who are running into them more frequently can slam out. Once that's done, I see no reason at all to consider this an issue at all. Thank you for taking the time to explain, and good luck to those bughunting!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on November 28, 2017, 02:30:21 AM
Oh, yeah.  I’m way more comfortable with those numbers than I was with my extrapolations from what I was seeing (but again, it’s hard to tell, since I haven’t deciphered the states yet - I filed a bug report in case you want to verify what I’m seeing, Akariel).  Thanks for the reply.

Edit: typo
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: manipura on November 28, 2017, 02:36:48 AM
If your spice is rotting within 24 hours, you bought shitty non-Kuraci spice and unfortunately that's what you get.

Quote
A single grain of spice on the floor will last, on average, 24 RL hours. If you put it in a standard backpack it should last 42.75 RL days, on average. If you are noticing a discrepancy with that please send in a request to let us know.

A single -pinch- of spice, for reference, can last 126.375 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container. That is almost half a year. The larger the amount of spice, the slower it decays. A brick of spice, for instance, can last 378 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container. That is over a RL year.

If you are noticing inconsistencies, it's possible some of the math on our end is a bit faulty and needs to be looked into. Please send in a bug request so we can take a look into it.

I didn't log in over Thanksgiving when this change went active and I came back a day or two later to several pinches of spice, in a non-specific container, decayed to a point where they couldn't be used one way but could be used another.  I think this was the second level of decay, but I'm not sure.

On the one hand you say if your spice is decaying extremely quickly you bought shitty spice, on the other hand you're saying that maybe some of the math is off.

Two game weeks is vastly different from half a year.  How do we know the difference between "it's possible some of the math on our end is a bit faulty" and "you bought shitty non-Kuraci spice and that's what you get"?  Send in bug requests for all inconsistencies, I guess?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on November 28, 2017, 02:39:51 AM
Sounds like a bug!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: evilcabbage on November 28, 2017, 03:00:26 AM
if it's a grain it's probably not kuraci, afaik the only way to get anything that isn't a grain is literally to get it from kurac.

i could be wrong. but it's one of those "merchant house secrets" like salarr (probably?) is the one who forges -any- metal weapons for the big black robes and kadius "probably" makes the metal rings you see nobles wearing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on November 28, 2017, 01:43:54 PM
if it's a grain it's probably not kuraci, afaik the only way to get anything that isn't a grain is literally to get it from kurac.

i could be wrong. but it's one of those "merchant house secrets" like salarr (probably?) is the one who forges -any- metal weapons for the big black robes and kadius "probably" makes the metal rings you see nobles wearing.

You used to be able to forage a pinch-sized amount of at least one type of spice, that I can remember.

I haven't foraged for spice in a long time though, so I suppose they could've changed it.

Also, technically, there are a few au naturel spice objects that aren't grains/pinches/knots/thal-knots/bricks.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on November 28, 2017, 01:57:06 PM
I've seen knots of spice decay way faster than the discussed time-frame. Might want to take a closer look at that, honestly.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on November 28, 2017, 04:46:46 PM
Yes, it appears the decay rate is off. We're working on it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on November 29, 2017, 02:58:14 PM
Yes, it appears the decay rate is off. We're working on it.
This should be fixed now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on November 29, 2017, 03:22:00 PM
Should people file reimbursements for spice that went bad in the interim, or just suck it up to a batch of low-grade crack?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kialae on November 29, 2017, 03:31:37 PM
if it's a grain it's probably not kuraci, afaik the only way to get anything that isn't a grain is literally to get it from kurac.

i could be wrong. but it's one of those "merchant house secrets" like salarr (probably?) is the one who forges -any- metal weapons for the big black robes and kadius "probably" makes the metal rings you see nobles wearing.

Yeah, a 'pinch' is the smallest amount of spice available from Kurac. A 'grain' is the smallest unrefined amount.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on November 29, 2017, 03:33:25 PM
Should people file reimbursements for spice that went bad in the interim, or just suck it up to a batch of low-grade crack?

For the most part, all spice that was stored properly should still be in working order - except for maybe grains or pinches. I'll do reimbursements if needed, of course.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on November 29, 2017, 03:35:43 PM
Should people file reimbursements for spice that went bad in the interim, or just suck it up to a batch of low-grade crack?

For the most part, all spice that was stored properly should still be in working order - except for maybe grains or pinches. I'll do reimbursements if needed, of course.

Darn, I trashed all the spice that went bad, suppose that's on me. Glad to hear it's working now tough!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: manipura on November 29, 2017, 05:53:05 PM
Should people file reimbursements for spice that went bad in the interim, or just suck it up to a batch of low-grade crack?

For the most part, all spice that was stored properly should still be in working order - except for maybe grains or pinches. I'll do reimbursements if needed, of course.

Darn, I trashed all the spice that went bad, suppose that's on me. Glad to hear it's working now tough!

Same.  At that point I was still under the assumption it was working as intended and I didn't want to be bothered with all this half-spoiled spice that I wasn't going to use before it went bad.  I also wasn't sure how else to store and just didn't want to deal with all that so I figured just be done with it and toss most of what was left.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on November 29, 2017, 06:25:00 PM
Spice will decay into nothing given enough time, the rock-hard stuff is just there to indicate that it has decayed entirely, so people don't ask WHAT HAPPENED TO MY SPICE IT'S GONE!?

Like I said, if you need a reimbursement, please send one in.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on November 29, 2017, 06:38:19 PM
Spice will decay into nothing given enough time, the rock-hard stuff is just there to indicate that it has decayed entirely, so people don't ask WHAT HAPPENED TO MY SPICE IT'S GONE!?

Like I said, if you need a reimbursement, please send one in.

That's a nice touch actually. It's nice to see remnants of 'what happened', rather than it just disappearing and making you think you were robbed or it simply poofed.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on November 29, 2017, 06:41:02 PM
Spice will decay into nothing given enough time, the rock-hard stuff is just there to indicate that it has decayed entirely, so people don't ask WHAT HAPPENED TO MY SPICE IT'S GONE!?

Like I said, if you need a reimbursement, please send one in.

So if I'm reading this right, rock-hard is the worst modifier for spice, indicating that it is now useless and about to decay into nothing?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on November 29, 2017, 07:04:00 PM
Spice will decay into nothing given enough time, the rock-hard stuff is just there to indicate that it has decayed entirely, so people don't ask WHAT HAPPENED TO MY SPICE IT'S GONE!?

Like I said, if you need a reimbursement, please send one in.

So if I'm reading this right, rock-hard is the worst modifier for spice, indicating that it is now useless and about to decay into nothing?

Yup. It's the "spoiled" of spice, I suppose.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stark on December 08, 2017, 10:28:16 AM
I'm pretty sure there's still an issue with this, at least, from my perspective, after receiving a reimb and the next day, despite the spice being put in "appropriate containers" it was already too old to roll or sniff. I'm not going to bother anyone with another request tool report either though.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on December 08, 2017, 06:37:05 PM
I'm pretty sure there's still an issue with this, at least, from my perspective, after receiving a reimb and the next day, despite the spice being put in "appropriate containers" it was already too old to roll or sniff. I'm not going to bother anyone with another request tool report either though.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1002613.html#msg1002613

Make Smoke Pinch Papers coming soon.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stark on December 08, 2017, 06:46:42 PM
Thank you.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on December 10, 2017, 04:58:33 PM
Quote
-Armor tailor bug fixed where armor that was re-sized would have the # of armor points provided 
  increased/decreased proportionally.

Does this mean that for example, half-giant armor is now the same amount of armor as a humans armor?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on December 10, 2017, 05:27:28 PM
Quote
-Armor tailor bug fixed where armor that was re-sized would have the # of armor points provided
  increased/decreased proportionally.

Does this mean that for example, half-giant armor is now the same amount of armor as a humans armor?

Specific gear designed for specific things (like a half giant wearing it) will have stats specifically made to fit that gear.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on December 16, 2017, 05:27:07 PM
So this reboot saw a few cool additions: threaten skill/command and NPC medics will heal damaged people (I'm expecting this is specific to clan sawbones like the one in the Byn).

I expect some people will think the threaten skill is unnecessary. After hearing for years about how raiders have it tough because people just spam flee, I think it's great for them to have code to back up what their character would try to do (i.e. attack someone if they try to flee). This will help give raiders a chance to roleplay more and code less. I've already seen people be less likely to auto-flee when they see another PC in the desert. Hopefully this will give raiders the support they need.

But in addition to helping support raiders, this will also help criminals such as thugs. We already got significant support for those PCs in the past with crim code getting turned off at night under certain conditions (at least, I'm pretty sure that's what happened. It's been a while since I've read the release notes for that). Now they'll be able to roleplay out threatening people for whatever they have on them.

All in all, it looks like good support for criminals wherever they might be.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on December 16, 2017, 05:41:04 PM
I once had a PC in Tuluk who was threatened by a bunch of elves (which I'm pretty sure was one of Malifaxis' elves) and while at the time I was livid about the fact that it DID happen, I admit that I could've just fled away and escaped the situation entirely.

This makes it so much easier for 2-3 people to pull off a mugging without guarding all the exits, hoping, and at least seventeen prayers to the Ginka.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: HavokBlue on December 16, 2017, 06:01:47 PM
This is an exciting change that will open more avenues for fun RP instead of feeling like you need to perraine stab your mark so they don't run away.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on December 16, 2017, 06:40:00 PM
So this reboot saw a few cool additions: threaten skill/command and NPC medics will heal damaged people (I'm expecting this is specific to clan sawbones like the one in the Byn).

This applies to any NPC that has both the bandage skill and a bandage item in their inventory.   When they are in the room with a friendly (same clan, usually) character that needs to be healed the NPC will make the attempt.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on December 16, 2017, 06:40:45 PM
This is cool and something I have wanted for a long time. But now im afraid people will be more willing to just run from every encounter so you dont even have the chance to threaten. Something I never considered until now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on December 16, 2017, 06:49:09 PM
Very cool addition. Can't wait to try it out (and have it tried out on my PCs).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on December 16, 2017, 06:49:55 PM
I hope that the 'threaten' command will be delayed in the same way that many commands are when moving between rooms. It shouldn't be possible to just teleport up to people and threaten them. The converse of danger when fleeing is being able to see people approaching you before they are within striking distance, something that is a lot easier in reality than in the game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: WarriorPoet on December 16, 2017, 07:58:45 PM
E (charging up, weapon at the ready); threaten badguy

This is an awesome addition. I recently had an encounter where it would have come in handy.

Question:

Is there a delay?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on December 16, 2017, 08:20:10 PM
Question:

Is there a delay?

As per the help file (https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Threaten), the delay comes after.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: evilcabbage on December 16, 2017, 08:20:16 PM
after


edit: god damnit nessalin i was gonna answer it ;_;
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on December 16, 2017, 10:44:39 PM
This is a good skill, glad to see it being implemented.

However, I am curious what happens if the first command the victim types is 'flee self'. Will the victim fail or be stopped from fleeing, or combat will start and the victim flees anyways? The raider is delayed after using the threaten skill so its easy for the victim to get away.

I can't help but think that chase should also be made a skill, allowing a chance to chase through flee (depending on chase skill vs flee skill). I've always been a fan of making the flee skill more important. Unfortunately, I digress, this is probably another thread all together.

Either way good addition and an improvement to the over all experience.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on December 16, 2017, 11:10:31 PM
This is a good skill, glad to see it being implemented.

However, I am curious what happens if the first command the victim types is 'flee self'. Will the victim fail or be stopped from fleeing, or combat will start and the victim flees anyways? The raider is delayed after using the threaten skill so its easy for the victim to get away.

I can't help but think that chase should also be made a skill, allowing a chance to chase through flee (depending on chase skill vs flee skill). I've always been a fan of making the flee skill more important. Unfortunately, I digress, this is probably another thread all together.

Either way good addition and an improvement to the over all experience.

Raider uses the threaten command on Merchant.
Raider is now threatening Merchant.
Raider is now lagged from the threaten command.

Merchant types 'flee self'
Raider's threaten has a 35% chance of succeeding.

Threaten succeeds:
  Raider immediately attacks Merchant
  Raider is still lagged from threaten, however, so none of Raider commands will go through until that ends.

Threaten fails:
  Merchant flees.
  Raider is still lagged from threaten and cannot give chase until the threaten lag wears off.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kialae on December 16, 2017, 11:23:18 PM
I would assume combat begins immediately, but any subsequent input commands (kick, bash, flee) would be after the delay.

Edit: Yep, I either didn't notice, or I got ninja'd, by Ness.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: SlaughterHouse5 on December 17, 2017, 12:18:54 AM
If the threaten succeeds and you do attack in a crimcoded area, you'll still become Wanted, right?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stark on December 17, 2017, 08:41:31 AM
I don't suppose this resolves the "raider" making the demand for coins, the "merchant" paying it, and then still being killed by the "raider".
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Rathustra on December 17, 2017, 08:57:43 AM
I don't suppose this resolves the "raider" making the demand for coins, the "merchant" paying it, and then still being killed by the "raider".

What's to resolve here? This is a classic example of the scorpion and the fox.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on December 17, 2017, 09:04:47 AM
backstab rathustra

EDIT: Wasn't it the frog and the scorpion?

EDIT2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI7VT9W587c
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: KankWhisperer on December 17, 2017, 02:51:31 PM
Would threaten trigger crim code in the city or in front of soldiers immediately?

Would the attack go through before or after the action they are threatening against? If it's before you can even draw a weapon I think that 'combat' types should have some skill to get their weapon out before the attack at least.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grogerif on December 17, 2017, 03:48:44 PM
backstab rathustra

EDIT: Wasn't it the frog and the scorpion?

EDIT2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI7VT9W587c

Some versions of the story replace the frog and/or scorpion with other animals.  The moral is the same.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on December 17, 2017, 03:59:23 PM
There doesn't seem to be any additional lag to the victim so even after a successful threaten skill, they can just type flee again (assuming the first command of the victim is stopped?) and be on their way. This isn't a necessarily a bad thing, of course.

My original concern here was the flee command would still go through immediately, even though threaten started an attack. In the past I had an experience where I attacked someone, and they would flee instantly. I think they had flee triggered/macro because they would flee so quickly, my character didn't even have a chance to attack even once after starting the fight.

The threaten skill is basically a good RP tool. Even at 100 percent of threaten skill success there would be no issue since it would still give a chance to RP the situation. Similar as a raider running in and typing kill merchant since the kill command is also 100 percent chance of success but gives no chance for RP.

I wouldn't mind seeing characters that can master threaten skill get a chance to delay their victim when the victim performs their first command. The delay on the victim side would be shorter than that of the raider, however, it would make people think twice about whether or not fleeing is a good enough option versus trying to RP it out. Though this might skew things in favor of the raider side of things, lets not forget anyone outside the walls leaves understanding the many dangers and should be coming prepared. 
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on December 17, 2017, 04:23:58 PM
The threaten command is pretty neat, imo. Have yet to see it used, but think some should be able to get it to master (once it's properly tested), particularly, raiders and thugs.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on December 18, 2017, 09:23:13 AM
I cannot wait to use threaten, at least it will be a way to codedly represent "I am here to raid you and willing to RP out the scene, not just attack immediately. Stand down."

I have similar concerns about the legalities of threaten that I'm SURE I'll find out ICly.

My worry is that if someone tries to flee from a threaten, and the raider successfully attacks, there is still no lag on the person BEING threatened, who can just spam "flee self" and run away immediately after, while the raider is still recovering and "positioning" from their threatening behavior.

I also wonder if threaten can be used OUT of hide... like hide;sneak;e;threaten merchant to kind of "pop out of the shadows, a blade extended" kind of threatening.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on December 18, 2017, 02:27:18 PM
Quote
My worry is that if someone tries to flee from a threaten, and the raider successfully attacks, there is still no lag on the person BEING threatened, who can just spam "flee self" and run away immediately after, while the raider is still recovering and "positioning" from their threatening behavior.

I'm okay with this.  There is no 'you -can't- escape' mode that I would support; this is the closest it comes, I think.  This is where you position, and immediately it comes to your strength and skill making it.  If the flee triggers attacks of opportunity on the way out as well, there will probably be a few cases of insta-ko's that we hear about (I'm not sure if they do.  Threaten 'engages', then the flee happens?  So attacks of opportunity should happen there if the flee skill isn't high, at least sometimes, right?  That's a lot of free attacks.)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on December 18, 2017, 03:11:03 PM
That's a fair point. The chance of attack for them trying to flee, added onto the Attack of Opportunity reaction would at least be enough to say "be careful next time" or administer poison, or in fact do enough damage to drop them.

I'm okay with it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on December 18, 2017, 03:34:59 PM
It also at once seems to encourage threatening (and traveling) with groups of people, as to avoid the consequences in either respect of traveling or threatening on ones own.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on December 18, 2017, 03:43:06 PM
One question I'd have, less about the code itself and more about it's use (from other players)...

Threaten vs Guard:
Is guard now something you use only for generic use while idle, or for nonspecificity?  For stopping groups?  It seems drastically more effective for all cases to just threaten off the bat to restrict movement, rather than guard entry into or out of an area.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on December 18, 2017, 03:50:20 PM
I would assume that Threaten is just to auto-initiate combat, right out the gate. Conversely, Guard is to prevent someone from moving past in a non-threatening manner.

So you can guard your employer, and step in in case they ARE attacked, or you can overtly threaten someone who MIGHT attack, and intercept them that way.

My concern is: If you're guarding someone, and threaten a third person, do you stop guarding? If you fail the Threat Intercept, does your guard still check?

I'm sure its find out IC, but that's a good question.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on December 18, 2017, 04:26:48 PM
Maybe guard should hard-counter threaten?

I.e. 'You move to threaten so and so, but his guard moves between you and so and so.' or 'You move to attack him for moving west, but the guard there moves inbetween you and him.'

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on December 18, 2017, 06:15:04 PM
Maybe guard should hard-counter threaten?

I.e. 'You move to threaten so and so, but his guard moves between you and so and so.' or 'You move to attack him for moving west, but the guard there moves inbetween you and him.'

This is already coded.

If the Merchant is guarded by Guard, then Raider will get a fail message when they attempt to 'threaten merchant'.

"You move to threaten a weak-chinned merchant but a broad-chested guard steps in the way!"
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on December 18, 2017, 06:55:00 PM
I just love those descriptions of the people.

Serious:
I for one foresee a lot of use with raiding, but there is another aspect that has yet to be mentioned, Soldiers.

A soldier could threaten 'bad guy' to effectively, at least somewhat, detain a guy without actually physically holding the dude down, and I think that would be a good thing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on December 18, 2017, 08:50:52 PM
Maybe guard should hard-counter threaten?

I.e. 'You move to threaten so and so, but his guard moves between you and so and so.' or 'You move to attack him for moving west, but the guard there moves inbetween you and him.'

This is already coded.

If the Merchant is guarded by Guard, then Raider will get a fail message when they attempt to 'threaten merchant'.

"You move to threaten a weak-chinned merchant but a broad-chested guard steps in the way!"

Awesome!  Thanks for the heads up, this makes me look forward to some things!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stark on December 22, 2017, 12:00:56 PM
Having received a reimb for spice on December 7th, I just noticed that ALL of the spice is gone, totally decayed, despite being put in spice containers. Since that is only 14 RL days, and all knots and other spices are gone, and I'm not even sure when that happened, is this code fixed, or did I read it wrong when I read that it would last like 167 RL days?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on December 22, 2017, 02:47:01 PM
Having received a reimb for spice on December 7th, I just noticed that ALL of the spice is gone, totally decayed, despite being put in spice containers. Since that is only 14 RL days, and all knots and other spices are gone, and I'm not even sure when that happened, is this code fixed, or did I read it wrong when I read that it would last like 167 RL days?

The hotfix released on the 14th of the month should have fixed this issue.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on January 30, 2018, 10:53:34 PM
An update to Mekillot combat intelligence, hell to the yes, make those bastards dangerous to an absurd degree.

What sort of tricks are we looking at here though? Will they change opponent for example, or are we simply talking things like bashing folks and such?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cabooze on January 31, 2018, 11:15:22 AM
If youre on the receiving end of threaten code, will it engage combat if you:

get coins <container> ?

get weapon <container>?

get <object> from ground?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grogerif on January 31, 2018, 12:15:47 PM
I actually love the idea of threaten being triggered (on a failure) by innocent actions.

get coins pouch
brutish half-giant hits you for remainder of your health
Brutish half-giant says in sirihish "Sorry Boss, he twitched, I thought he was reaching for a weapon."

Wonderful times. (even though I'd likely be playing the smear)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on January 31, 2018, 11:16:53 PM
Right now the skinned-items-decay seems to be about 7 or 8 minutes or so. That's... kind of quick. Any chance it could be adjusted to 15 minutes or so? I don't think hides should just sink into the ground after less than an ingame hour, for instance.

This happened inside a village, in case that changes things.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: tortall on February 01, 2018, 09:02:44 AM
Right now the skinned-items-decay seems to be about 7 or 8 minutes or so. That's... kind of quick. Any chance it could be adjusted to 15 minutes or so? I don't think hides should just sink into the ground after less than an ingame hour, for instance.

This happened inside a village, in case that changes things.

So... If we have a stack of hides NOT in a container inside a building.... Do they also decay?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on February 01, 2018, 11:14:52 AM
Right now the skinned-items-decay seems to be about 7 or 8 minutes or so. That's... kind of quick. Any chance it could be adjusted to 15 minutes or so? I don't think hides should just sink into the ground after less than an ingame hour, for instance.

This happened inside a village, in case that changes things.

So... If we have a stack of hides NOT in a container inside a building.... Do they also decay?

No I think she's talking about out in the wilds, post skinning.

Rather than sinking into the ground, it'd be cool if items naturally became 'buried' in a room, as in sand blows over them and covers them. So you can still find some of the stuff, but you'll have to go digging in the sand.

>The item is here, partially covered in sand. (Still visible)
>The item is here, buried in sand. (Still visible)
>The item gets buried. (Buried, not visible)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on February 01, 2018, 11:33:46 AM
Quote
So... If we have a stack of hides NOT in a container inside a building.... Do they also decay?

That would basically be pretty unplayable.  The stuff only sinks into the ground if someone skins something and then doesn't pick it up.

Quote
Rather than sinking into the ground, it'd be cool if items naturally became 'buried' in a room, as in sand blows over them and covers them. So you can still find some of the stuff, but you'll have to go digging in the sand.

Forage artifact.

Next time maybe play around with the code and how it works.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on February 01, 2018, 11:55:00 AM
Quote
So... If we have a stack of hides NOT in a container inside a building.... Do they also decay?

That would basically be pretty unplayable.  The stuff only sinks into the ground if someone skins something and then doesn't pick it up.

Quote
Rather than sinking into the ground, it'd be cool if items naturally became 'buried' in a room, as in sand blows over them and covers them. So you can still find some of the stuff, but you'll have to go digging in the sand.

Forage artifact.

Next time maybe play around with the code and how it works.

I know about bury code, bra. Just saying it'd be cool to have the items go in-between 'uncovered' and 'buried' in stages. No need to agree with me!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on February 01, 2018, 02:27:40 PM
Quote
So... If we have a stack of hides NOT in a container inside a building.... Do they also decay?

That would basically be pretty unplayable.  The stuff only sinks into the ground if someone skins something and then doesn't pick it up.

Quote
Rather than sinking into the ground, it'd be cool if items naturally became 'buried' in a room, as in sand blows over them and covers them. So you can still find some of the stuff, but you'll have to go digging in the sand.

Forage artifact.

Next time maybe play around with the code and how it works.

Next time maybe don't say "next time maybe" as a suggestion for how to play the game.

"Next time maybe don't be an asshole." "Please think about your words before you post."
"Next time maybe think about what you're doing." "There is more to this, and here is what I can share."
"Next time maybe play around with code I'm assuming you didn't even know about." "Here is the code I don't think you know about, give it a try!"
"Next time maybe read what the person says and weigh your response carefully." "Please respond thoughtfully to your fellow commenters."
"Next time maybe leave open comments to those with better Customer Service skills." "If you can't say it nicely, step back and think about it."

See how "next time maybe" sounds a lot more condescending than it should?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on February 01, 2018, 03:04:52 PM
Quote
So... If we have a stack of hides NOT in a container inside a building.... Do they also decay?

That would basically be pretty unplayable.  The stuff only sinks into the ground if someone skins something and then doesn't pick it up.

Quote
Rather than sinking into the ground, it'd be cool if items naturally became 'buried' in a room, as in sand blows over them and covers them. So you can still find some of the stuff, but you'll have to go digging in the sand.

Forage artifact.

Next time maybe play around with the code and how it works.

I know about bury code, bra. Just saying it'd be cool to have the items go in-between 'uncovered' and 'buried' in stages. No need to agree with me!

No, it literally does that already. You can forage artifacts for anything that has been skinned and sunk into the ground.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on February 01, 2018, 03:08:37 PM
Quote
Rather than sinking into the ground, it'd be cool if items naturally became 'buried' in a room, as in sand blows over them and covers them. So you can still find some of the stuff, but you'll have to go digging in the sand.

>The item is here, partially covered in sand. (Still visible)
>The item is here, buried in sand. (Still visible)
>The item gets buried. (Buried, not visible)

I think what he meant, here, is that there could be coded stages to an item disappearing. Currently it just disappears entirely after a set time, and Veselka was saying "It'd be cool if" the Bury system came into play and scripted out the items in the forage artifact table, rather than disappearing from the game altogether.

Personally I disagree, its just more for the system to track and nobody is going to go digging for scrab guts, but that's what he meant.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on February 01, 2018, 03:28:42 PM
Quote
Rather than sinking into the ground, it'd be cool if items naturally became 'buried' in a room, as in sand blows over them and covers them. So you can still find some of the stuff, but you'll have to go digging in the sand.

>The item is here, partially covered in sand. (Still visible)
>The item is here, buried in sand. (Still visible)
>The item gets buried. (Buried, not visible)

I think what he meant, here, is that there could be coded stages to an item disappearing. Currently it just disappears entirely after a set time, and Veselka was saying "It'd be cool if" the Bury system came into play and scripted out the items in the forage artifact table, rather than disappearing from the game altogether.

Personally I disagree, its just more for the system to track and nobody is going to go digging for scrab guts, but that's what he meant.

Yes, it does move items to the bury table, which is foraged through 'forage artifact' just like what happens if a body with loot on it decays in an appropriate room.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on February 01, 2018, 03:49:08 PM
No, all I was saying is for the sake of flavor and 'we are all in a yellow submarine, I mean, the desert', that the items have a sort of decay code attached, wherein they appear as half-buried, then fully buried. Literally just a shower thought, NBD.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on February 01, 2018, 04:34:10 PM

I like the idea of stages of buried, but it's a recode.

Right now you're in a stage where you will have crap littering the desert, but it'll be all hidden.

So you'll just pop out the west gate, roam 4-5 rooms northwestish and type " forage artifact for ivory" to load up on chalton horn.

How long do the buried objects persist in memory in non-save rooms? Until the next reboot?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on February 01, 2018, 04:43:46 PM
Heh, this explains some things.  Also, now I’m just going to be waiting for the time I:

Code: [Select]
>forage artifact
You find a medallion of Tektolnes, and pick it up.

>em chokes in shock
>bury medallion
>flee self
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: seidhr on February 01, 2018, 08:59:15 PM
How long do the buried objects persist in memory in non-save rooms? Until the next reboot?

Yes, reboot, unless the room happened to be a save room.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on February 05, 2018, 06:16:57 PM

From today's release notes on decapped heads ...

If I put a decapped head in a food bin/pouch and close it, will it still degrade?

In the (mostly hypothetical) situation where I'd need to keep a head around for awhile for my own nefarious reasons ... what would be the method?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on February 05, 2018, 06:18:49 PM
Is it purposeful that you can no longer "pack" bodies onto mounts?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on February 05, 2018, 06:24:32 PM
So... were mekillots invincible for a while before this last reboot?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on February 05, 2018, 06:31:02 PM
What's up with the new parry/block messages? They're super neat, but it's confusing what has changed. Are opponents put off balance by a mediocre parry/block?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on February 06, 2018, 12:47:41 PM
Persistent mount stats through stabling would be cool
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on February 06, 2018, 01:52:43 PM
So... were mekillots invincible for a while before this last reboot?

No.

One of their special attacks could have its damage reduced to 0 by way of natural armor and worn armor.

Even when the damage was at 0, however, the message indicated that they had inflicted damage.

The message about inflicting damage should now only appear when damage is greater than 0.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on February 06, 2018, 01:54:03 PM
Is it purposeful that you can no longer "pack" bodies onto mounts?

Fixed in today's release.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on February 06, 2018, 01:57:55 PM
What's up with the new parry/block messages? They're super neat, but it's confusing what has changed. Are opponents put off balance by a mediocre parry/block?

They're just flavor text.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Chettaman on February 06, 2018, 02:02:32 PM
I thought not packing animals was cool.
I just didn't realize how much it had changed hunting, but I was definitely ready to adjust.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on February 06, 2018, 04:25:58 PM
I thought not packing animals was cool.
I just didn't realize how much it had changed hunting, but I was definitely ready to adjust.

It was a debatable 'fix'.  The only reason corpses were packable on mounts is due to a conceit in the code where corpses were technically containers (so that things can be taken out of them).  This is most apparently in the error message when trying to pack non-containers on a mount.

Still, packing corpses on mounts has been possible for so long it kind of got grandfathered in.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on February 06, 2018, 04:44:31 PM
Nessalin,

Could your recent code changes eventually lead to corpses showing a cause of death ?

That would be super cool.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on February 06, 2018, 10:44:07 PM
Code: [Select]
>the body of the mansa-esque man is here, dead of asking for another present when he just got one
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on February 06, 2018, 10:46:36 PM
I thought not packing animals was cool.
I just didn't realize how much it had changed hunting, but I was definitely ready to adjust.

It was a debatable 'fix'.  The only reason corpses were packable on mounts is due to a conceit in the code where corpses were technically containers (so that things can be taken out of them).  This is most apparently in the error message when trying to pack non-containers on a mount.

Still, packing corpses on mounts has been possible for so long it kind of got grandfathered in.

I just like to be able to sling a corpse over the back of my mount and ride into the sunset. Thank you for keeping this possible!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on February 08, 2018, 11:40:12 AM
Quote
A naked busy construction crew is standing here.

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/017/225/zAp2LzJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chavo on February 08, 2018, 12:49:38 PM
STAFF: We are going to make these large dangerous creatures as dangerous as they should be, requiring large groups and costing significant coins to acquire their materials.

ALSO STAFF: Lol you got 1 bone from a building sized monster: Git Gud Skinnerz
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on February 08, 2018, 01:45:47 PM
Quote
A naked busy construction crew is standing here.

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/017/225/zAp2LzJ.jpg)

They work hard, they play hard.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on February 08, 2018, 04:17:40 PM
STAFF: We are going to make these large dangerous creatures as dangerous as they should be, requiring large groups and costing significant coins to acquire their materials.

ALSO STAFF: Lol you got 1 bone from a building sized monster: Git Gud Skinnerz

This has not been the case since we updated various house-sized creatures 1-2 years ago. Search 'Meatcraft' on the forums for more information.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on February 08, 2018, 04:37:03 PM
STAFF: We are going to make these large dangerous creatures as dangerous as they should be, requiring large groups and costing significant coins to acquire their materials.

ALSO STAFF: Lol you got 1 bone from a building sized monster: Git Gud Skinnerz

This has not been the case since we updated various house-sized creatures 1-2 years ago. Search 'Meatcraft' on the forums for more information.

I think he means that you could still technically "fail" your skinning attempt and barely get anything usable.

You know. The old "I guess I stabbed this gortok a dozen too many times to have a usable hide" bit.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: solera on February 10, 2018, 12:19:23 AM
Quote
Undressed PC races


Does that mean NPC shop assistants are still safe from casual glances?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on February 10, 2018, 04:31:32 AM
Staff: Every npc in the game is now naked
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on February 10, 2018, 05:10:43 AM
Quote
Undressed PC races


Does that mean NPC shop assistants are still safe from casual glances?

This means races playable by PCs.  Human, Half-elf, Elf, Desert Elf, Dwarf, Mul, Half-Giant.

Other races don't get flagged as naked when not wearing enough clothing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on February 10, 2018, 08:42:18 AM
Quote
Undressed PC races


Does that mean NPC shop assistants are still safe from casual glances?

This means races playable by PCs.  Human, Half-elf, Elf, Desert Elf, Dwarf, Mul, Half-Giant.

Other races don't get flagged as naked when not wearing enough clothing.

The naked ruddy-brown mekillot has arrived from the east.

You feel fear.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on February 10, 2018, 09:59:05 AM
Skinned items also seem to sink into the ground in cities - is this intentional?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on February 10, 2018, 12:36:53 PM
Skinned items also seem to sink into the ground in cities - is this intentional?

Yes, we're working on messages that relate to the room's type, so that city messages will differ from desert messages, for example.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on February 10, 2018, 12:57:41 PM
"is lost into the sand" might feel a bit more seamless than "sinks into the sand", IMHO. Or something else that suggests the sand is covering it rather than a mental image of it sinking into a pit of quicksand a'la 80's movies.

Maybe "is lost to scavengers" or "is lost among the debris" in city environments?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: solera on February 10, 2018, 01:09:30 PM
Quote
Undressed PC races


Does that mean NPC shop assistants are still safe from casual glances?

This means races playable by PCs.  Human, Half-elf, Elf, Desert Elf, Dwarf, Mul, Half-Giant.

Other races don't get flagged as naked when not wearing enough clothing.

This will be a problem then, for some NPC's  such as the lovely Kadians, unless things have changed?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on February 10, 2018, 01:26:42 PM
Quote
Undressed PC races


Does that mean NPC shop assistants are still safe from casual glances?

This means races playable by PCs.  Human, Half-elf, Elf, Desert Elf, Dwarf, Mul, Half-Giant.

Other races don't get flagged as naked when not wearing enough clothing.

This will be a problem then, for some NPC's  such as the lovely Kadians, unless things have changed?

What theoretically should happen - npcs that previously loaded without clothes, should be re-created so that they DO load with clothes unless their nakedness is intentional.

That way, if a "should be" clothed NPC is naked, players will actually notice it. This can contribute to RP plots - why is this NPC missing his kilt? Who stole it? Or was it given away, to whom, and in exchange for what?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: In Dreams on February 13, 2018, 12:09:25 AM
I've noticed in certain circumstances, you seem to get flagged 'naked' even with something around your 'trunk' or 'waist' which'd actually cover you.

I know it's probably a hard thing to navigate in a fullproof way, but I can foresee people getting RP'd at like they're naked when they're not.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on February 13, 2018, 10:57:48 AM
Trunk is not a location that defines nudity. Men and women can both show off their pectorals without fear of being naked. (Though your mileage may vary when you're put up against other players).

Waist is also not a location that defines or protects against nudity as a good majority of waist items are belts, sashes, quivers, ect. If you have a loincloth, wear it on your pelvis. That's what the new wear locations were made for!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on February 14, 2018, 05:32:01 AM
Yeah, there's one obvious npc which I bugged because their thong is one of those older items which are still worn about the waist.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kialae on February 16, 2018, 06:51:18 PM
Hold on, I just noticed the Dispel reach added. If it's what I think it is, that's such a QoL addition we needed!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on February 17, 2018, 11:42:17 PM
Would it be possible to change the naked code a little bit?

So, like with current rules change it to something like, mostly naked or almost naked then save just naked for when they actually have nothing at all on? I think that would nicely fix the issue with all these NPCs showing up naked when they are not.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fernandezj on March 22, 2018, 11:48:28 PM
With the changes to brew, are older cures now useless?

Or will it only really take effect in making new things?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Envy on March 23, 2018, 12:06:10 AM
With the changes to brew, are older cures now useless?

Or will it only really take effect in making new things?

Old cures are useless. Have to learn the new cures now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on March 23, 2018, 12:31:39 AM
If already made old cures are useless, and not just the recipes, methinks that would be a very bad call.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on March 23, 2018, 12:52:33 AM
Some of them appear to still be functional. Maybe not all.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on March 23, 2018, 01:20:16 AM
I mean, you had a years notice to swap over...
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: WanderingOoze on March 23, 2018, 02:00:21 AM
Would it be possible to change the naked code a little bit?

So, like with current rules change it to something like, mostly naked or almost naked then save just naked for when they actually have nothing at all on? I think that would nicely fix the issue with all these NPCs showing up naked when they are not.

Completely irrelevant. But I laughed at the amount of times 'Naked' Was used in this post.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on March 23, 2018, 07:54:16 AM
Do they still sell the old cures in the shops?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: tortall on March 23, 2018, 10:59:18 AM
I mean, you had a years notice to swap over...

Those of us that came back more recently and knew the old system haven't had much time to try and figure out the new system and what makes cures for what issues. I've been trying to learn, but I'm just not sure how to figure anything out without trying to poison my PC and then try random combinations since finding PCs with the knowledge IG has proven to be more difficult than I thought.

Took me some 2-3 YEARS of playing to get information IG on the old system.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on March 23, 2018, 11:11:14 AM
Oh my god. We dont know how to make cures anymore! This must be how it feels to be a newbie. Scary scary world :)


I got shocked as well. I didnt realize old cures were obsolete now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on March 23, 2018, 01:00:58 PM
I didn't have the least bit of interest in the new code. I guess I'll have to start being interested now!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on March 23, 2018, 01:26:52 PM
I didn't have the least bit of interest in the new code. I guess I'll have to start being interested now!

The new code is fun. I really enjoy it. It's also more flexible and makes a lot more IG sense than the old one.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on March 23, 2018, 01:35:10 PM
My take is it's funner for people creating the cures, but less reliable for people consuming the cures. Have to have the skill to actually tell what a given cure does. So the rest of us are at the mercy of the Crafters.

Once every one ypdates their spreadsheets and swap them around on discord we should see a more reliable, easier to use system reemerge.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on March 23, 2018, 01:39:55 PM
My take is it's funner for people creating the cures, but less reliable for people consuming the cures. Have to have the skill to actually tell what a given cure does. So the rest of us are at the mercy of the Crafters.

That's honestly the way it should always have been. Get you a reliable medic.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on March 23, 2018, 01:42:28 PM
Yeah it's just an adjustment is all. I can always play dwarves in the meantime if I really don't want to bother. Just aren't enough medic PCs around....yet.

I'm more excited for the ability to use bloodied as a proper keyword.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on March 23, 2018, 01:56:36 PM
There are people already knowledgeable in game.  Find them and kill them so no one has cures and then poison everyone. -Kefka 2018
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on March 23, 2018, 10:34:31 PM
Spread a wave of rumors that cures are based on vile magick and to not be trusted, then just ignore the new code.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on March 24, 2018, 08:22:21 AM
Please don't spread information around OOCly. If you don't want to enjoy the game as it's presented, there are other options for you to experience fun and excitement in today's modern world than ruining the secret for other players of our game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fernandezj on March 24, 2018, 01:09:31 PM
1. I haven't been playing a year so I don't know what years notice you are talking about.

2. if an item linked to a heavy coded feature of the game like living becomes obsolete its just common decency to say they don't work anymore, and most codebases let you delete useless items.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fernandezj on March 24, 2018, 01:10:39 PM
My take is it's funner for people creating the cures, but less reliable for people consuming the cures. Have to have the skill to actually tell what a given cure does. So the rest of us are at the mercy of the Crafters.

Once every one ypdates their spreadsheets and swap them around on discord we should see a more reliable, easier to use system reemerge.

Is this a joke or do people actual ruin the game this way?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on March 24, 2018, 01:45:06 PM
My take is it's funner for people creating the cures, but less reliable for people consuming the cures. Have to have the skill to actually tell what a given cure does. So the rest of us are at the mercy of the Crafters.

Once every one ypdates their spreadsheets and swap them around on discord we should see a more reliable, easier to use system reemerge.

Is this a joke or do people actual ruin the game this way?

There are some people who do this, yes. The publicizing of this information is harmful to the game IMO but the fact that people know the information, in general, is not, also IMO. The fact that some (mostly former) players don't understand the nuances that differentiate "knowing" and "publically making the info available" is the most harmful, IMO.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Renenutet on March 24, 2018, 02:08:00 PM
There are people already knowledgeable in game.  Find them and kill them so no one has cures and then poison everyone. -Kefka 2018
Look at that. A signature at last.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on March 25, 2018, 12:02:25 PM
There are people already knowledgeable in game.  Find them and kill them so no one has cures and then poison everyone. -Kefka 2018
Look at that. A signature at last.

I feel a sense of Accomplishment. 
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on March 25, 2018, 06:28:44 PM
There are people already knowledgeable in game.  Find them and kill them so no one has cures and then poison everyone. -Kefka 2018
Look at that. A signature at last.

I feel a sense of Accomplishment.

I think you just won the game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on April 09, 2018, 06:44:44 PM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1010094.html#msg1010094

Quote
The pour command can now be used to pour liquids into the mouths of unconscious, paralyzed, and subdued characters.  This feature is a result of seeing players attempt it in the game and not having it work the way vials do.

Can we drown people?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on April 09, 2018, 07:18:23 PM
Pour liquids concerns:

Mistakenly forcing someone to drink cleaning liquid. People have consumed it themselves, in error - if there's a LOT going on they might not remember that they have a keg of the stuff in their inventory. This particular thing should not be codedly possible, I feel. Especially since if the person is in a position where someone COULD force them to drink it, they'd already probably be easy to kill without forcing them to drink it.

Mistakenly pouring booze into someone who is unconscious/subdued. Maybe a "are you sure" echo to the person doing the pouring requiring a "y/n" response or something. I can see a lot of unintentional death-by-code happening here.

Intentional drunk/poison while someone is subdued or paralyzed but still conscious (and therefore able to watch without being able to do anything about it)...should require consent.

The concept is awesome though.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 09, 2018, 07:25:46 PM
What is your reasoning behind requesting consent, as it isn't readily apparent to me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on April 09, 2018, 07:55:43 PM
What is your reasoning behind requesting consent, as it isn't readily apparent to me.

Echoed. I see this as just a secondary way to execute or damage a helpless opponent. You don't have to request consent to execute someone who is subdued with your sword. Terradin should be considered the same, and frankly way cooler for the victim.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Is Friday on April 09, 2018, 07:55:53 PM
What is your reasoning behind requesting consent, as it isn't readily apparent to me.
https://youtu.be/pZwvrxVavnQ

Code: [Select]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQ
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on April 09, 2018, 08:05:18 PM
I think she means consent on the side of the person doing the pouring, not consent on the side of the victim. I don't really think it's necessary but it's not what some seem to think she means.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on April 09, 2018, 08:30:14 PM
Is there a delay after the pour command for this, and does it crim flag if you pour something hazardous?

What's stopping someone from shitmugging someone sleeping in the side room of the Gaj? Any other aggressive action taken will be stopped / have you arrested by the soldiers.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on April 09, 2018, 08:31:18 PM
The question arises, why are you accidentally carrying cleaning fluid around while kidnapping people?

If anything, it sounds like a decent way to kill a guy.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on April 09, 2018, 08:36:49 PM
If a person is conscious and is being forced to drink a liquid that will cause pain/agony/injury against his/her will and without the coded ability to respond, or attempt to prevent it, for the character to even say "oh no!" - that's torture.  Coded torture. I feel the same way about the cuddler and the nursery by the way. The consequence for rejecting torture could be death.

If they're not conscious - then the player won't be seeing any of the various echoes - and their PC will probably die within a few seconds anyway. But people who are subdued and/or paralyzed - their players can see every echo and are incapable of reacting to them. Since the echoes are graphic, and since the players are incapable of reacting to them and are forced to watch them - I feel they should be allowed to decide whether or not they'd rather just accept a death penalty for their characters.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 09, 2018, 08:41:02 PM
I will confess the combo of
subdue person
pour heramide person

is a tiny little bit WAY TOO POWERFUL. 

A lot more powerful then let's say subduing a person and then trying to knock them out. On account that with heramide pouring, the victim rolls 'one' skill check. On the other scenario, the victim rolls a whole bunch of different checks that are related to a whole bunch of different skills.

So yes. The only time someone should be able to pour something into another's throat without them being able to resist it is paralyze/unconscious.  If you do it to a sleeping person, the sleeping person should have an equivalent of a <sip> amount and then immediately wake up. If you  do it to a subdued person, it should simply not ever work, or have an echo and then a good 60 second delay before execution.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on April 09, 2018, 08:48:03 PM
If a person is conscious and is being forced to drink a liquid that will cause pain/agony/injury against his/her will and without the coded ability to respond, or attempt to prevent it, for the character to even say "oh no!" - that's torture.  Coded torture. I feel the same way about the cuddler and the nursery by the way. The consequence for rejecting torture could be death.

If they're not conscious - then the player won't be seeing any of the various echoes - and their PC will probably die within a few seconds anyway. But people who are subdued and/or paralyzed - their players can see every echo and are incapable of reacting to them. Since the echoes are graphic, and since the players are incapable of reacting to them and are forced to watch them - I feel they should be allowed to decide whether or not they'd rather just accept a death penalty for their characters.

I feel like the consent help file is pretty clear.

"If someone is instigating roleplay that makes you uncomfortable, please OOC that they should stop."

"In the case of mutilation, an action that would cause a character to lose their ability to function in some way, the victim may request that they be killed by the procedure. It is then the instigator's responsibility to attempt to kill the victim, or take some other appropriate course of action. The victim should not request other punishments, bargain, or otherwise discuss the situation out of character beyond this provision."


"If you act out a graphic sequence without first obtaining the other player's consent...."

"Please use common sense and have respect for other people's sensibilities."
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on April 09, 2018, 08:51:57 PM
I think suggesting the coded terradin echoes are equivalent to fully roleplayed torture is a stretch.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on April 09, 2018, 08:53:56 PM
If a person is conscious and is being forced to drink a liquid that will cause pain/agony/injury against his/her will and without the coded ability to respond, or attempt to prevent it, for the character to even say "oh no!" - that's torture.  Coded torture. I feel the same way about the cuddler and the nursery by the way. The consequence for rejecting torture could be death.

If they're not conscious - then the player won't be seeing any of the various echoes - and their PC will probably die within a few seconds anyway. But people who are subdued and/or paralyzed - their players can see every echo and are incapable of reacting to them. Since the echoes are graphic, and since the players are incapable of reacting to them and are forced to watch them - I feel they should be allowed to decide whether or not they'd rather just accept a death penalty for their characters.

I feel like the consent help file is pretty clear.

"If someone is instigating roleplay that makes you uncomfortable, please OOC that they should stop."

"In the case of mutilation, an action that would cause a character to lose their ability to function in some way, the victim may request that they be killed by the procedure. It is then the instigator's responsibility to attempt to kill the victim, or take some other appropriate course of action. The victim should not request other punishments, bargain, or otherwise discuss the situation out of character beyond this provision."


"If you act out a graphic sequence without first obtaining the other player's consent...."

"Please use common sense and have respect for other people's sensibilities."

Right - that was written before it became possible to force poison down a character's throat without consent of the player, when the coded echoes of that poison are indicative of torture. This is coded, not acted out.  I feel the consent rule should be updated to include this one aspect of it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on April 09, 2018, 09:32:21 PM
Well you can shoot someone with that same poison without their consent.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on April 09, 2018, 10:01:08 PM
ooc Consent to smash your characters face in with my HG's club right dood?

I feel like you should be able to grab someone, and pour a caustic liquid in their face without having to go to OOC, but then I am also if a mind that you shouldnt need to ask consent for pretty much anything at all in the game. This is a HARSH desert world where we have slavery and an entire sub-species of sentient beings that are often the product of rape.

Why can I not poison a guy without his/her permission if I could otherwise just murder them instead?

If it makes you uncomfortable, sure, ask to tone it down.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 09, 2018, 10:20:35 PM
I personally do not like the idea of forcing poison down someone's throat mainly because it makes killing too easy. That's my opinion. Not about consent of graphic violence at all. But just a matter of how easy it is for 2 people to subdue and pour liquid in, to instantly KO someone out.  Granted it's possible to do it by simply stabbing a person with a poisoned dagger. But liquid brewed poison and poison that sticks to blades are two entirely different things in terms of difficulty to procure.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on April 10, 2018, 12:02:45 AM
I have a few opinions.

1. I think there should be an advantage to using brewed poisons rather than, say, a tainted waterskin or cleaning fluid. (It's kind of silly that cleaning fluid kills you, anyway. It should just make you throw up a few times and have a really bad few days.) Whether that advantage is being easier to administer or being stronger in effect, I can deal with it either way, but there should be some reward for the skill and knowledge it takes to distill a poison.

2. I also think there should be a delay when pouring something down someone's gullet. There should be an echo that shows that someone is attempting to force you to drink something, so you have time to type flee if you are conscious. There should also be a chance of failure (for conscious victims), aka the would-be drinker spits out all the liquid. Nosave skills or something similar could bypass the check if you're trying to give water to a dehydrated person.

3. If you are sleeping normally, not unconscious, attempting this should wake you up unless you are also subdued, and you should spit out whatever is attempted to be poured down your throat unless you have nosave skills (or whatever) on.

4. If you are unconscious (not normally sleeping), then you are SOL anyway. Take it like the little bitch you are.

EDIT:

I didn't say quite what I meant to say on item #3. If you're sleeping normally, someone trying to make you drink something should wake you up whether or not you're subdued, but it should be a definite fail unless they subdue you, in which case it should be a normal check.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ShaiHulud on April 10, 2018, 02:20:30 AM
I pour honey into your mouth, real sweet, you don't react, other than lap it up. I pour acid in your mouth, not so nice. You get a great save?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on April 10, 2018, 02:52:33 AM
Dear God can we leave the consent rule discussion for things that actually matter. This community spends too much time trying to police other players.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on April 10, 2018, 03:08:18 AM
I wouldn't be inclined to [willingly] let some stranger unexpectedly pour honey in my mouth while holding me down, especially since I don't know if it's poison or not. I wouldn't like to wake up to that, either!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ShaiHulud on April 10, 2018, 03:14:22 AM
I think the idea was to allow medics to administer cures to those not able to fix themselves, but I can see the concern of abuse. Thus my snarky idea.
I'm awake and subdued, trying to pour some shit in my mouth..phenomenal save. Unconscious, not so much.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on April 10, 2018, 07:09:38 AM
I personally do not like the idea of forcing poison down someone's throat mainly because it makes killing too easy. That's my opinion. Not about consent of graphic violence at all. But just a matter of how easy it is for 2 people to subdue and pour liquid in, to instantly KO someone out.  Granted it's possible to do it by simply stabbing a person with a poisoned dagger. But liquid brewed poison and poison that sticks to blades are two entirely different things in terms of difficulty to procure.

What?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: CodeMaster on April 10, 2018, 10:45:42 AM
I personally do not like the idea of forcing poison down someone's throat mainly because it makes killing too easy. That's my opinion. Not about consent of graphic violence at all. But just a matter of how easy it is for 2 people to subdue and pour liquid in, to instantly KO someone out.  Granted it's possible to do it by simply stabbing a person with a poisoned dagger. But liquid brewed poison and poison that sticks to blades are two entirely different things in terms of difficulty to procure.

What?

I'm just a fly on the wall for this discussion... but what don't you understand about what he wrote?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on April 10, 2018, 11:46:51 AM
I personally do not like the idea of forcing poison down someone's throat mainly because it makes killing too easy. That's my opinion. Not about consent of graphic violence at all. But just a matter of how easy it is for 2 people to subdue and pour liquid in, to instantly KO someone out.  Granted it's possible to do it by simply stabbing a person with a poisoned dagger. But liquid brewed poison and poison that sticks to blades are two entirely different things in terms of difficulty to procure.

What?

Unless Dar knows something we don't, the process of poisoning a waterskin and poisoning a blade are pretty darn similar. They consume the exact same item to perform.
I'm just a fly on the wall for this discussion... but what don't you understand about what he wrote?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nauta on April 10, 2018, 11:59:52 AM
I personally do not like the idea of forcing poison down someone's throat mainly because it makes killing too easy. That's my opinion. Not about consent of graphic violence at all. But just a matter of how easy it is for 2 people to subdue and pour liquid in, to instantly KO someone out.  Granted it's possible to do it by simply stabbing a person with a poisoned dagger. But liquid brewed poison and poison that sticks to blades are two entirely different things in terms of difficulty to procure.

This is a very good point, two points really: (1) the ability to pour a poison, be it a vial or a shitmug, into a victim's throat makes it easy to KO them; (2) the ability to pour a poison that is not a vial (thus not created by the poison or brew skills) makes it so that such vials are far too easy to obtain.  I'm going to pitch an argument against (1), namely, to the conclusion that being able to easily pour poisoned liquid into a victim (subdued, paralyzed, or asleep) is a good thing, not a bad thing.  So I agree with Dar that it would make it very easy to do so; I disagree that this is a bad thing.  However, I totally agree about (2) -- if anyone can make up a shitmug and not just those skilled at poisons, then this will proliferate poisons, and make it so much more deadly.  (Solution: remove shitmugs from the game.  Only those with a poison skill can poison vials / liquid containers.)

1. But first, let's bear in mind that we could do this already from at least two years ago or whenever it was that they implemented the ability to pour vials into other people's mouths.  Here's the change:
Quote
"-The pour command can now be used to pour liquids into the mouths of unconscious, paralyzed, and subdued
  characters.  This feature is a result of seeing players attempt it in the game and not having it work the way vials do."
And I can't find it now, but I do remember the ability to use a vial on a victim being implemented with the general rollout of the new tablet code.

What this change allows, however, is for more poisons than just poison vials to be applied to a victim, thus broadening the scope.

2. Ok, so would the ability to pour a poison vial or a shitmug into a victim's throat, where the victim is subdued, paralyzed, or asleep, allow one to more easily kill them?  Yes!  I agree.  Is this a bad thing?  My thesis is: no.  So let's break it down:

Asleep/Paralyzed - If you are asleep/paralyzed, you are at the mercy of those who are not asleep.  They could stab you with a poison dagger and kill you.  They could slit your throat.  They could stuff a vial of killmenow poison into your mouth and kill you now.

Subdued - Here, admittedly, one might see resistance -- and I think this is what Dar is driving at.  HG Biff walks up to you, subdues you, and then, hands free of a weapon to kill you with, somehow manages to pour a poison vial or shitmug down your throat, which he had in his inventory.  I think this might not make a lot of sense, and have a suggestion at the end how to prevent this.  But if HG Biff subdues you and his buddy Ranger Rover stabs you with a poison blade in the face, or pours a poison vial in your mouth, you should be dead.  It's a one-two combo, admittedly, but it was already a one-two combo with a blade.

Suggestion: in order to pour a vial/container of liquid into someone else, you must hold it.  Thus, you could not subdue them AND pour the thing down the throat at the same time, just as you can't subdue them and stab them at the same time, since subdue makes you drop your weapons. You'll need a partner.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on April 10, 2018, 03:08:00 PM
For subdued, if I'm awake, you're going to have to try really hard to get me to drink something I don't want. Even if you hold me down, I can spit it out or breath through my nose to prevent swallowing.

Those options don't really apply for unconscious or paralyzed, and if I'm asleep, I just want it to wake them up immediately after they pour. You still get the effects of whatever they pour, but at least you can immediately go for a cure, or attack them back.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on April 10, 2018, 03:27:25 PM
For subdued, if I'm awake, you're going to have to try really hard to get me to drink something I don't want. Even if you hold me down, I can spit it out or breath through my nose to prevent swallowing.

Those options don't really apply for unconscious or paralyzed, and if I'm asleep, I just want it to wake them up immediately after they pour. You still get the effects of whatever they pour, but at least you can immediately go for a cure, or attack them back.

I don't remember if a subdued person is codedly able to talk/say/tell or emote. If they are, then my concern about the consent on that is not a concern. The concern I had (and still have) is that the "victim" is codedly incapable of protesting, asking for death, thanking someone, or even emoting about squirming - if they're paralyzed while you're pouring something down their throat.

I can even think of an instance in which someone is critically injured and immobile - and their player is just really idling while waiting for the thirst code to finally kill them off (maybe they don't know about quit-die or maybe they're communicating with staff via wish about the situation before their character dies). Saving their life might be unwanted to the *player*.

There are personal reasons why I would prefer to consent to them killing my character over making me sit there unable to respond while their character poisons mine. It's the "unable to respond" part I object to, when you are doing something to my character. It isn't even that you're doing it against my will - it's that you don't have any way of knowing what my will is, if you don't ask for consent because my character is incapable, codedly, of responding or reacting in any way at all. I might as well just go linkdead, which you'd probably consider lame. But that's how you'd be treating my character if you were to do that to them under that very narrow and specific circumstance.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: surveyvon on April 10, 2018, 03:41:20 PM
Relevant release notes.

Quote
September 12th, 2016

(Nessalin)
-When an arrow becomes lit, by whatever means, any poison on it is removed.
-Vials can now be used to administer cures and poisons to victims using either the use or pour commands.  This will preclude wishes asking to shove a tablet into the mouth of someone who is sleeping/paralyzed/subdued.
  -The victim is unconscious (small chance they will choke and spit it up)
  -The victim is paralyzed (small chance they will choke and spit it up)
  -The victim is subdued (chance to resist)
-Usage:


> use vial warrior
> pour vial warrior
> pour vial in warrior
> pour vial on warrior
> pour vial into warrior
> pour vial onto warrior

« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 10:59:04 AM by nessalin »
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on April 10, 2018, 03:48:38 PM
I would hate to find someone bleeding out and get in trouble for bandaging them, or giving them a drink of water., because I didn't ask for consent beforehand. A lot of things happen to our characters against the will of the players involved. While I do see the point of breathing through one's nose, said nose could be pinched, spitting out, mouth could be covered.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on April 10, 2018, 03:56:08 PM
Looks like it already works kind of like I was suggesting. I wonder if being paralyzed but conscious negates your resist roll, though? It should.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on April 10, 2018, 05:15:32 PM
Quote

I don't remember if a subdued person is codedly able to talk/say/tell or emote. If they are, then my concern about the consent on that is not a concern. The concern I had (and still have) is that the "victim" is codedly incapable of protesting, asking for death, thanking someone, or even emoting about squirming - if they're paralyzed while you're pouring something down their throat.

You can emote and say while subdued, yes. If you are paralyzed you cant though.

I would hate to find someone bleeding out and get in trouble for bandaging them, or giving them a drink of water., because I didn't ask for consent beforehand. A lot of things happen to our characters against the will of the players involved. While I do see the point of breathing through one's nose, said nose could be pinched, spitting out, mouth could be covered.

They could always just store after that, and say their character died, I really dont see an issue with it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 10, 2018, 05:22:22 PM
I personally do not like the idea of forcing poison down someone's throat mainly because it makes killing too easy. That's my opinion. Not about consent of graphic violence at all. But just a matter of how easy it is for 2 people to subdue and pour liquid in, to instantly KO someone out.  Granted it's possible to do it by simply stabbing a person with a poisoned dagger. But liquid brewed poison and poison that sticks to blades are two entirely different things in terms of difficulty to procure.

What?

Heramide poison that sticks on a blade is rare, difficult, and dangerous to provide. It's price ranges from favor to 5000+ depending on how desperate a PC is for it.
Heramide poison that can be brewed into a vial is possible to be created by a 0 day ranger.

Being subdued by one and attacked by another puts you into a severe disadvantage, but most definitely does not mean certain death. You can survive it, if you're lucky, or skilled enough.
Being subdued by one and having a vial poured into you knocks you out completely, which 'does' mean certain death. Regardless of your character's .... anything really.
A 0 hour warrior elf (I'm not talking about HGs. HGs at least require karma) has a strong 'chance' to subdue a 100 day character, provided he's lacking a certain guild/subguild.
2 0 hour characters can potentially incapacitate and kill a 100 day character due to the vial pouring not having a resistance mechanic, merely by that 100 day character failing 'one' single challenge roll.

Is this really something you find plausible and acceptable?  I'm not talking about realistic, since arguments 'for' and 'against' it have already been mentioned and discussed. I am merely talking about plausibility of it as a coded mechanic.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: surveyvon on April 10, 2018, 05:24:47 PM
Quote
Heramide poison that can be brewed into a vial is possible to be created by a 0 day ranger.

I don't think this is true anymore, following the removal of the brew command in favor of the crafting system.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on April 10, 2018, 05:29:05 PM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 10, 2018, 05:35:13 PM
It's still nowhere close to as dangerous as procuring a non-brewed heramide.

Heramide is very powerful. Therefore it's understandable to make the process of procuring it to be very dangerous.

Making a brewed heramide very difficult doesnt make so much sense, because then it's non-lethal application becomes too rare and you lose functionality.

It's easier, more balanced, less abuse prone, and would actually make sense to allow a resistance check on a conscious person. Deactivated by some type on nosave.
If one thinks they have someone in their power so much that they wouldnt be able to resist drinking the liquid. Then that someone should have enough power over their victim to knock them out and pour it into their gullet then. Wake them up afterwards if necessary. If it is a benevolent action, it's just a simple matter of telling the person to "Sit still and drink this" and having the person nosave the defence.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on April 10, 2018, 05:41:39 PM
Re Consent:

Consent is not required to hack motherfuckers up with bone swords, murder someone, or various other forms of coded combat. Consent is required for sexual scenes, bodily mutilation, and graphic torture. The poison code does not fall into any of those categories on its own, nor does using the code in place to poison someone. Of course, if there is abuse of the system we will be watching and listening and will strike faster than a spider-monkey.

Help Consent - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Consent

Quote
There are few restrictions on roleplay in Armageddon. If you choose to roleplay adult situations, that is fine. However, before instigating such an act with another player, you need to OOC to make sure that the role play is consented to, in each scene it happens. You must do this as you can't be sure that you are alone in every situation, and as such consent must be addressed every time. If someone is instigating roleplay that makes you uncomfortable, please OOC that they should stop. If they continue despite being told to stop, please wish up. This rule is not meant to be abused in order to allow characters to escape the consequences. Perhaps a good analogy is the movie ratings system: some people may wish to see the details acted out in a way which would deserve an R rating while another, younger player might prefer that the details be communicated in an OOC fashion and left offstage.

Rape/Sexual Torture plotlines are not to be played out in the game. See 'help rape' for further elaboration on this subject and a definition of what is considered rape in Armageddon.

In the case of mutilation, an action that would cause a character to lose their ability to function in some way, the victim may request that they be killed by the procedure. It is then the instigator's responsibility to attempt to kill the victim, or take some other appropriate course of action. The victim should not request other punishments, bargain, or otherwise discuss the situation out of character beyond this provision.

If you act out a graphic sequence without first obtaining the other player's consent, and the player then complains within a reasonable amount of time (so that the runlogs can be checked and the complaint verified), you will be banned. If you enact a rape plotline or an act of rape, you will be banned. In either case, you will be banned for thirty (30) days for the first offense, permanently for the second offense. If the Producers deem an act that is a first offense especially egregious, you will be permanently banned. Please use common sense and have respect for other people's sensibilities.

Notes:
You must be 18 years of age or older to ask for or give consent for sexual roleplay.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: surveyvon on April 10, 2018, 05:52:21 PM
It's still nowhere close to as dangerous as procuring a non-brewed heramide.

Heramide is very powerful. Therefore it's understandable to make the process of procuring it to be very dangerous.

Making a brewed heramide very difficult doesnt make so much sense, because then it's non-lethal application becomes too rare and you lose functionality.

It's easier, more balanced, less abuse prone, and would actually make sense to allow a resistance check on a conscious person. Deactivated by some type on nosave.
If one thinks they have someone in their power so much that they wouldnt be able to resist drinking the liquid. Then that someone should have enough power over their victim to knock them out and pour it into their gullet then. Wake them up afterwards if necessary. If it is a benevolent action, it's just a simple matter of telling the person to "Sit still and drink this" and having the person nosave the defence.

There is a resist check.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 10, 2018, 05:59:08 PM
... oh. There is? I'm sorry. I assumed that pouring liquid inside subdued people did not have any checks. Then nevermiiiind.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on April 11, 2018, 02:34:47 AM
Re Consent:

Consent is not required to hack motherfuckers up with bone swords, murder someone, or various other forms of coded combat. Consent is required for sexual scenes, bodily mutilation, and graphic torture. The poison code does not fall into any of those categories on its own, nor does using the code in place to poison someone. Of course, if there is abuse of the system we will be watching and listening and will strike faster than a spider-monkey.


+1 Thank you.

I personally do not like the idea of forcing poison down someone's throat mainly because it makes killing too easy. That's my opinion. Not about consent of graphic violence at all. But just a matter of how easy it is for 2 people to subdue and pour liquid in, to instantly KO someone out.  Granted it's possible to do it by simply stabbing a person with a poisoned dagger. But liquid brewed poison and poison that sticks to blades are two entirely different things in terms of difficulty to procure.

What?

Heramide poison that sticks on a blade is rare, difficult, and dangerous to provide. It's price ranges from favor to 5000+ depending on how desperate a PC is for it.
Heramide poison that can be brewed into a vial is possible to be created by a 0 day ranger.

Being subdued by one and attacked by another puts you into a severe disadvantage, but most definitely does not mean certain death. You can survive it, if you're lucky, or skilled enough.
Being subdued by one and having a vial poured into you knocks you out completely, which 'does' mean certain death. Regardless of your character's .... anything really.
A 0 hour warrior elf (I'm not talking about HGs. HGs at least require karma) has a strong 'chance' to subdue a 100 day character, provided he's lacking a certain guild/subguild.
2 0 hour characters can potentially incapacitate and kill a 100 day character due to the vial pouring not having a resistance mechanic, merely by that 100 day character failing 'one' single challenge roll.

Is this really something you find plausible and acceptable?  I'm not talking about realistic, since arguments 'for' and 'against' it have already been mentioned and discussed. I am merely talking about plausibility of it as a coded mechanic.

I'm not sure I follow the concern here regarding 0 hour characters randomly subduing people and forcing heramide down people's throats. If such a thing occurs, it's fairly easy for Staff to investigate whether this was a 'Troll' killing of abusive newbies and for the victim of this abuse to get rezz'ed.

However, I would suggest adding a nosave 'remedy' option that people can turn off and on to indicate gladly accepting the remedy versus fighting against it, in the same way they do subdue, combat and crime. That way perhaps an addition skill check can be done taking 'def' into account, thereby avoiding Dar's fear that his 100 day warrior could so easily be taken out by some 0 day trolls.

Ultimately though I think the concern of abuse here is wildly anxious and unwarranted, because as Akariel mentioned abuse of all kinds will be monitored by the spider-monkeys in the sky.

I think this is a cool addition with lots of RP potential, and with perhaps a few tweaks to skill checks can be extremely realistic.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: worldofsand on April 11, 2018, 05:22:51 AM
What I'm wondering is why mugs of fecal matter are functionally identical to a fairly fatal poison.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on April 11, 2018, 06:17:50 AM
There are a few food items that do it as well when you eat them.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on April 11, 2018, 12:17:11 PM
Quote
Ultimately though I think the concern of abuse here is wildly anxious and unwarranted, because as Akariel mentioned abuse of all kinds will be monitored by the spider-monkeys in the sky.

Ultimately, code equates to the laws of physics of the game.  What is possible and impossible.  If we want something to behave in a certain way, code it that way.  Abuse is not, 'Oh, that was twinky.'  It's the manipulation of code to gain results that the code is not intended for.

Hence, when we say 'They will be watching for abuse', my general concern is that abuse is being used very loosely and negatively.  Make the code account for the behavior you want.  Not to facilitate another front of 'You fuckin' twink. Negative review.'

That being said...it seems that this entire concern would be solved via further work with poison crafting.  Deadly poisons through brew need to be similarly risky, so that if this happens to you from two 0 day warriors, they just pulled off something special.  I do like the idea of it having a delay that notifies you, so that if you -weren't- fighting off the subdue before...you are now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on April 11, 2018, 12:33:10 PM
The pour vial code has been in place for 2 years, and it hasn't generated this kind of discussion the entire time. SUCCESSFULLY subduing someone, and having your buddy pour a vial down their throat, isn't easy. Subdue, in itself, is a tough skill, and you can always escape. Even beyond the escape, you can resist and cough up the contents of the vial and make them waste it.

Personally, I'm all for a lack of 300 kzul berries in someone's skull-chest, and more opportunity for "lesser people" to try and poison others. Since the new brew code came in, I've wanted to do a subdue/kidnap scenario, but it just isn't a fun plotline after about 20 minutes.

I'm with Armaddict here, though, in that if there is potential for abuse, code it differently. If its working as intended, and some people learn the code, its limitations, and apply that knowledge? Sucks, man, but that's no different from the rest of the game. If you have 2 0-day warriors subduing and forcing poison onto people, nothing was stopping them from subduing and attacking you. But now you have more chances to flee, a chance to avoid the damage entirely, and even IF poisoned, there are a number of branching opportunities there, as well.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on April 11, 2018, 03:42:56 PM
Hence, when we say 'They will be watching for abuse', my general concern is that abuse is being used very loosely and negatively.  Make the code account for the behavior you want.  Not to facilitate another front of 'You fuckin' twink. Negative review.'

This is fair, I agree.

The pour vial code has been in place for 2 years, and it hasn't generated this kind of discussion the entire time. SUCCESSFULLY subduing someone, and having your buddy pour a vial down their throat, isn't easy. Subdue, in itself, is a tough skill, and you can always escape. Even beyond the escape, you can resist and cough up the contents of the vial and make them waste it.

Personally, I'm all for a lack of 300 kzul berries in someone's skull-chest, and more opportunity for "lesser people" to try and poison others. Since the new brew code came in, I've wanted to do a subdue/kidnap scenario, but it just isn't a fun plotline after about 20 minutes.

I'm with Armaddict here, though, in that if there is potential for abuse, code it differently. If its working as intended, and some people learn the code, its limitations, and apply that knowledge? Sucks, man, but that's no different from the rest of the game. If you have 2 0-day warriors subduing and forcing poison onto people, nothing was stopping them from subduing and attacking you. But now you have more chances to flee, a chance to avoid the damage entirely, and even IF poisoned, there are a number of branching opportunities there, as well.

I agree with this completely, which is why I think a tweak of what actually constitutes a skill-resist check for this and the ability to nosave would solve the concerns.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on April 11, 2018, 04:35:49 PM
Let me rephrase:
There are checks in place to stop people from doing things that we have already considered outside the realm of IC possibility. If someone finds a way around this through playing the code, it would be considered abuse.

This includes things like, for a hypothetical example, you know that you are supposed to have a lag after bashing someone. You find out one day that if you bash someone, but put a period at the end of the command, it doesn't have any lag. You rationalize that since it's possible, obviously it was intended and you're in the right. You proceed to use this to gain an advantage in the game without reporting it to staff. (Please note, this is completely made up and not a real situation.)

That would be an abuse of the code. Using the code effectively and within the confines of how it's laid out is not abuse of the code. Twinking the code is not an abuse of the code (but may factor into Rule #1 (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rules)).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on April 16, 2018, 09:36:07 AM
Quote
Hack
(Melee Combat)
This skill causes your character to attempt to strike an opponent's shield or armor, damaging or even destroying it, rather than attacking the opponent themselves.

Shields, when present, are always struck before armor.

And in the tunnels of the gith, there was a great weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on April 16, 2018, 11:13:32 AM
Did I just read the release notes wrong, or is this a wet dream come true?

ETA:

Nope, attacking someone's shield and-or armor instead of their horror-plated crotch-piece is now a thing. Wow.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on April 16, 2018, 07:17:52 PM
Attacking shield I understand...attacking armor...Makes no sense at all. Like really, none. Like you suddenly have a magick attack that damages only or mostly the armor while transferring nothing or next to nothing to what is below it, in DIRECT contact. I mean really, just make armor degrade faster when hit in normal attacks (against that too, but at least it makes sense).

As to attacking shield, Fine...but directly attacking the shield should DRASTICALLY raise the odds of weapon destruction as well. I mean, it is not like we are talking about two drastically different materials here, like steel verses leather...most the time they are the same materials, often the shield is actually harder. The idea of attacking that bahamet shell shield with that wooden/bone sword and doing more damage to the shield then the shield does to the sword is silly. Also, the style of weapon should matter as well, Piercing/stabbing and slashing should do the lowest armor and shield damage with a VERY GREAT risk of weapon loss, while Chopping and blunt should do the most (in that order) With the lowest chance to be destroyed. Is that the case now?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on April 16, 2018, 08:25:01 PM
Attacking shield I understand...attacking armor...Makes no sense at all. Like really, none. Like you suddenly have a magick attack that damages only or mostly the armor while transferring nothing or next to nothing to what is below it, in DIRECT contact. I mean really, just make armor degrade faster when hit in normal attacks (against that too, but at least it makes sense).

As to attacking shield, Fine...but directly attacking the shield should DRASTICALLY raise the odds of weapon destruction as well. I mean, it is not like we are talking about two drastically different materials here, like steel verses leather...most the time they are the same materials, often the shield is actually harder. The idea of attacking that bahamet shell shield with that wooden/bone sword and doing more damage to the shield then the shield does to the sword is silly. Also, the style of weapon should matter as well, Piercing/stabbing and slashing should do the lowest armor and shield damage with a VERY GREAT risk of weapon loss, while Chopping and blunt should do the most (in that order) With the lowest chance to be destroyed. Is that the case now?

The only way to hack is with chopping.

And sometimes you have to make sacrifices of realism in the name of playability.

We have disarm for weapons. There has to be some counter to shields, too, which cannot be disarmed.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: cshoov on April 16, 2018, 08:56:37 PM
Attacking shield I understand...attacking armor...Makes no sense at all. Like really, none. Like you suddenly have a magick attack that damages only or mostly the armor while transferring nothing or next to nothing to what is below it, in DIRECT contact. I mean really, just make armor degrade faster when hit in normal attacks (against that too, but at least it makes sense).

As to attacking shield, Fine...but directly attacking the shield should DRASTICALLY raise the odds of weapon destruction as well. I mean, it is not like we are talking about two drastically different materials here, like steel verses leather...most the time they are the same materials, often the shield is actually harder. The idea of attacking that bahamet shell shield with that wooden/bone sword and doing more damage to the shield then the shield does to the sword is silly. Also, the style of weapon should matter as well, Piercing/stabbing and slashing should do the lowest armor and shield damage with a VERY GREAT risk of weapon loss, while Chopping and blunt should do the most (in that order) With the lowest chance to be destroyed. Is that the case now?

The only way to hack is with chopping.

And sometimes you have to make sacrifices of realism in the name of playability.

We have disarm for weapons. There has to be some counter to shields, too, which cannot be disarmed.

I'm not really following your logic there. The trade-off with shields is that you are better defended, but you attack (approximately) half as often, right? How does it follow from the fact that we can disarm weapons to needed to damage shields?

I actually think it's a cool idea; I'm just trying to understand your train of thought.


Tangentially related: How do people roleplay the implementation of skills/commands like that? Does every fighter around the Known suddenly have this idea for a new technique?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on April 16, 2018, 10:39:25 PM
I love the idea of people being able to 'hack' at a shield with axes until it detonates(with a risk of breaking their own weapons in the process too). That's super cool.

I'm not sure I follow the logic of targeting armor though.. I mean, I'd love to just target someone's head and neck with every shot during combat, but that's more or less relegated to how high my offense and weapon proficiency are right? I'm guessing that the success check takes those things into consideration along with parry/defense? In which case, also super cool.

I hope everyone is bracing themselves for the gith to use these same techniques against all our fancy shields and armor too :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on April 17, 2018, 06:27:48 AM
The in game help file says nothing about weapon type first off, So, if chopping only, that is good. As to a counter for shield...Huh? Why? Historically there was no realistic counter for a shield till the gun. Why does it need to be different in arm, I don't get it.

Also, Shields already go from perfect to crap way to fast in normal combat. I don't know, I think it makes little sense to have the skill/command.

Also, what are the drawbacks to the user of said command? What are the odds the axe gets stuck in the shield? (very realistic) That the user misses completely and thrown way off balance (realistic) That the user is simply easier to hit since his target is a shield and not what is behind it?

Is there a defense against it? Every other offensive melee skill has a defense.

And like others, I really do not follow the playability over realism logic, in fact I find it quite the other way around, harming both.


Wee, all the more reason to spam disarm/bash. Bleh.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 17, 2018, 12:05:02 PM
Shields were routinely battered into uselessness by several types of weapons.  I guess I had the Dane ax used by Vikings in my head, which absolutely could shred a shield.

The drawback is that it is a skill that needs to be activated by a command, and has an associated lag, rather than a passive that is always in effect enhancing the damage done to armor in locations that are hit.  I have to disagree with X-D on how often, or badly, shields get damaged.  When was the last time you saw an elf able to damage a shield routinely?

As for damaging worn armor, yes this is not as useful as destroying a shield, but it does have its uses.  Not least of which is being able to still be able to train the skill when no one will face you with their shield.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: worldofsand on April 17, 2018, 12:16:23 PM
I think it's just a little questionable to be able to strike someone in such a way as to damage their armor without hurting them. Maybe it should just be for use against shields only. People aren't going to use this in training anyway for very obvious reasons. A skill to break shields makes sense, a skill to carefully damage armor doesn't.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on April 17, 2018, 07:45:05 PM
And the Dane axe was made of.....wait for it...STEEL! Verses wooden or leather shields. Comparing apples and earthworms here. But I guess you missed that part of my post about materials. That is alright, I will RE-state it. You think this skill/command makes sense, Fine, but since weapons and shield IG are made of the same things mostly, you should give the weapon a DRASTICALLY enhanced chance of damage/destruction. If I strike wood on wood, rock on rock, steel on steel diamond on diamond, they both take damage. Every single time. ALSO...That dane axe or other weapon stood a HIGH chance of getting stuck in the shield, rendering both items useless Mutual destruction IG terms. Does the hack skill/command have that?

Shields IG already take tons of damage, specially from kick and blunt weapons, I have to disagree with you Brokkr. One or two sparring matches can send a shield from new to cracked or worse easily. And I have had them do the same in gith/Halfling/raptor/mantis/kryl combat as well.

As to an elf damaging a shield, With kick, they can, easily, which is unrealistic but we live with it. As to with weapons, they should not be able to...not really, a weak strike is a weak strike.

Also....A shield is already being aimed at the weapon...I mean look, If I am using a shield, I am putting it between me and the weapon.  How is it that you now have some magickal skill that makes it so you suddenly do enhanced damage to the shield. I do not get it.

Oh Hey, I am an elf that has to wield my bone hatchet two handed, I cannot get past your sandcloth but if I actually target your Silt horror shield I can damage it. Yes, this makes total sense. I cannot damage you or your armor in normal combat but I have this kung-fu skill that lets me target your armor and not you and damage it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on April 17, 2018, 08:22:18 PM
Is this a skill that should be showing up on a skill list, or is it branched ALA Ride? Or is it a passive skill that doesn't get better or worse? Thanks!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 17, 2018, 09:06:43 PM
Aha!  But if that elf hacks your sand cloth armor to pieces, you will suffer the death of ten thousand cuts!

I get that you don’t like it.  if it wasn’t hack, it would be some other way to get past shields, rendering defensive behemoths vulnerable.

Hack is like threaten.  For now a bare bones skill that is possible for anyone, but as a skill is only on the new classes skill lists.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on April 17, 2018, 09:29:56 PM
And now you make me hate it even more. Realism, Nope, Playability Nah...We must BREAK something because Oh hey, somebody chooses to be defensive and we cannot have that, Are we putting in something to harm the dual wielder or the etwo, Nah, just the guy that chooses defense. Will it be realistic in any way, Nope....deal with it, this makes our new everybody is equally poor Marxist new classes work.

If Shield users are somehow over powered then so are dual and etwo...is there plans to equally dumb them down?

Are there plans to add negs, realistic negs to Hack other then a short delay after? I mean really.. Oh, they get a delay after. yup, that offsets the money you have to pay to get your shit repaired. Any risk to their gear? Nah...
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on April 17, 2018, 10:17:50 PM
I like the skill on paper. Don't really agree with X-D's complaints. I don't see this as a big nerf to shield users though I'd have to see it in use to know for sure.  I don't care if it is unrealistic or not, it's a cool game feature, something Arm already has a lot of and can use a lot more of. Anything that makes combat less stagnant is great.

Depending on how strong it is there are several possible balances that can be done. I think the ability should take up an attack round, and a critical failure should be a delay in your attacks in the form of your weapon getting stuck or lodged.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on April 17, 2018, 10:56:39 PM
Will it damage weapons to use it?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 17, 2018, 11:22:25 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that skill is intended to interact in the dynamic of the new classes.

Where the heavy merchantile classes have shield use that is slightly better than current rangers, and all the other 12 classes are better at it than that.

I wouldn't put it in with the skillsets of the current guilds, it wouldn't add much.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on April 18, 2018, 12:09:12 AM
If Shield users are somehow over powered then so are dual and etwo...is there plans to equally dumb them down?

Disarm?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: azuriolinist on April 18, 2018, 12:50:53 AM
Will it damage weapons to use it?

I love the skill addition. I'd love it even more if the material type of weapon versus shield were taken into account, so that appropriate damage is dealt out to either or both.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on April 18, 2018, 01:43:37 AM
One thing to keep in mind is that skill is intended to interact in the dynamic of the new classes.

Where the heavy merchantile classes have shield use that is slightly better than current rangers, and all the other 12 classes are better at it than that.

I wouldn't put it in with the skillsets of the current guilds, it wouldn't add much.

The only reason I asked is for the long lived Warriors in game that will suddenly be outmatched by New Kids On the Block with the ability to hack their armor. I suppose this may be as intended, to shoe people out of the old classes and into the new classes, but it feels a little 'meh, and also contributes to guild-sniffing (Particularly in combat-based clans where the people who can 'hack' will be immediately compared to people who cannot 'hack')'.  Would it be possible to grant it to the Warrior class, as well as the new classes?  If the old classes are going to be phased out anyways, eventually, it may be a nice stop gap while the Beta Classes are still in Beta.

I totally understand that more (most, all) work is being put into the new Classes  -- That makes perfect sense. But as it's still being tested, who knows when it will be done? Some of us may be rolling the old classes until such a time where that isn't possible, depending on our karma and wish to be involved with the beta.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on April 18, 2018, 02:40:28 AM
There will almost definately be at least ons or two Warrior guild PCs that will last for AGES past the switchover to the new guild system.

Plus, I think it would be good to see what the Hack skill can do in the meantime.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on April 18, 2018, 04:52:02 AM
"I'd like to see more weapon and armor degradation in the game."

*skill idea goes in specifically to damage armor and shields*

"Fuck this game, this is terrible."


Hope that failure has at least a chance to damage the weapon.  I'll look forward to people getting pissed they can't hit me and taking it out on my shield instead with many flowery emotes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on April 18, 2018, 03:55:26 PM
Armor, realistically, should only be able to take a few hits before being made ragged.

It would need REGULAR repair between battles. Buckles and straps go first from just marching. Romans were regularly repairing armor without battle, just from military marching drills. Also, armor is extremely taxing to wear. Halloween memories anyone? The Spartian warriors would maintain armor on a daily basis.

With that said... Armor should dramatically lower max stamina and lower stun and get damaged from just walking around. And it doesn't do any of this.

This new code against armor is GREAT. It is a wonderful tool that allows an aggressor to attack without worry about injuring the opponent. This is something one would do to demonstrate that "You cannot defend yourself, you are a child, give up."

Brilliant.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 18, 2018, 04:21:35 PM
What was the mainstay of being a warrior? It was the ability to stay in a fight and bear the brunt of it, between parrying and shield use.

This is a step toward taking that way. Toward eliminating the "great warrior" and the ability to stand out as a fighter.

If even heavy merchants are going to have a degree of weapons skill, the gap between warrior (heavy combatant?) and the other classes between heavy merchants narrows even further.

Sorcerers and elementalists pared down and now warriors? People calling for the elimination of PC half giants. Mantis PCs long gone. The days of heroes are truly over.  :o
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on April 18, 2018, 04:46:44 PM
What was the mainstay of being a warrior? It was the ability to stay in a fight and bear the brunt of it, between parrying and shield use.

This is a step toward taking that way. Toward eliminating the "great warrior" and the ability to stand out as a fighter.

If even heavy merchants are going to have a degree of weapons skill, the gap between warrior (heavy combatant?) and the other classes between heavy merchants narrows even further.

Sorcerers and elementalists pared down and now warriors? People calling for the elimination of PC half giants. Mantis PCs long gone. The days of heroes are truly over.  :o

When is the last time you got challenged by a burglar, on a warrior? Not to mention that the new heavy combat classes end up with higher caps on weapons than warriors.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on April 18, 2018, 09:40:08 PM
Will NPCs have this skill as well?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on April 18, 2018, 10:01:04 PM
Can we not act like the game is ending with every minor change that comes about.

How the hell is this ruining the mainstay of a warrior when it is a warrior skill.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 18, 2018, 10:05:50 PM
Can we not act like the game is ending with every minor change that comes about.

How the hell is this ruining the mainstay of a warrior when it is a warrior skill.

Numbers will be more important than skill. A few lackluster warriors will take a master warrior down by hacking away his shield and armor.

And what is a "warrior" with the new class system anyhow? How many classes will have the hack skill?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on April 18, 2018, 10:20:14 PM
Can we not act like the game is ending with every minor change that comes about.

How the hell is this ruining the mainstay of a warrior when it is a warrior skill.

Because Warriors don't have the skill? Just Combat-New-Classes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on April 18, 2018, 10:31:38 PM
Can we not act like the game is ending with every minor change that comes about.

How the hell is this ruining the mainstay of a warrior when it is a warrior skill.

Numbers will be more important than skill. A few lackluster warriors will take a master warrior down by hacking away his shield and armor.

As someone who has played a few high level warriors, I can say that this is preposterous. A master warrior with 50 days played can 1v3-4 a bunch of 'lackluster' warriors (4-5 days up to 10 days played) without getting touched in my empirical studies.

Secondly, like bash, disarm, and kick, I am 150% certain that hack also will have a raw offense/defense association with the roll. No active combat skill is simply skill vs skill. It's a complex calculation of skill+offense+size modifiers ect ect vs skill+defense+modifiers.

So not only will a master level warrior be dodging 4 farmboys even IF they manage to wreck his armor (and therefore him being naked will have little to no consequence), they almost certainly won't be able to hack his armor in the first place. I can tell you from testing that there IS a failure message for your hack being avoided.

Hack is merely another combat utility skill. It's disarm for shields. If your opponent is ruining your life with hack, he's probably just as capable of disarming your weapon out of the room and laying your ass out for a full OOC minute. You're dead anyway.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on April 18, 2018, 10:59:02 PM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 18, 2018, 11:11:59 PM
As someone who has played a few high level warriors, I can say that this is preposterous. A master warrior with 50 days played can 1v3-4 a bunch of 'lackluster' warriors (4-5 days up to 10 days played) without getting touched in my empirical studies.

Secondly, like bash, disarm, and kick, I am 150% certain that hack also will have a raw offense/defense association with the roll. No active combat skill is simply skill vs skill. It's a complex calculation of skill+offense+size modifiers ect ect vs skill+defense+modifiers.

So not only will a master level warrior be dodging 4 farmboys even IF they manage to wreck his armor (and therefore him being naked will have little to no consequence), they almost certainly won't be able to hack his armor in the first place. I can tell you from testing that there IS a failure message for your hack being avoided.

Hack is merely another combat utility skill. It's disarm for shields. If your opponent is ruining your life with hack, he's probably just as capable of disarming your weapon out of the room and laying your ass out for a full OOC minute. You're dead anyway.

If a warrior has to rely on dodge for defense, how is he any different from a ranger minus wilderness skills.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on April 18, 2018, 11:25:26 PM
As someone who has played a few high level warriors, I can say that this is preposterous. A master warrior with 50 days played can 1v3-4 a bunch of 'lackluster' warriors (4-5 days up to 10 days played) without getting touched in my empirical studies.

Secondly, like bash, disarm, and kick, I am 150% certain that hack also will have a raw offense/defense association with the roll. No active combat skill is simply skill vs skill. It's a complex calculation of skill+offense+size modifiers ect ect vs skill+defense+modifiers.

So not only will a master level warrior be dodging 4 farmboys even IF they manage to wreck his armor (and therefore him being naked will have little to no consequence), they almost certainly won't be able to hack his armor in the first place. I can tell you from testing that there IS a failure message for your hack being avoided.

Hack is merely another combat utility skill. It's disarm for shields. If your opponent is ruining your life with hack, he's probably just as capable of disarming your weapon out of the room and laying your ass out for a full OOC minute. You're dead anyway.

If a warrior has to rely on dodge for defense, how is he any different from a ranger minus wilderness skills.

In several key ways.

Firstly, a warrior with his shield missing will still have his weapon, which will continue to parry. A warrior has higher parry and parry is the de facto most important defensive skill* in the game. Secondly, a warrior's hidden offense and defense have a steeper trajectory of growth than a ranger's, and he/she will be dodging more effectively than a similarly trained ranger. Additionally, because their higher offense and defense growth, they will also naturally avoid the hack to begin with better than a similarly trained ranger and are less likely to lose their shield in the first place. Thirdly, a warrior has access to a number of different skills -- disarm your opponent's axe to delay their hacking if you find it unsatisfactory.

Suggesting hack makes a warrior = ranger in combat capacity is ridiculous. Warriors are not singularly defined by their ability to handle shields so removing the shield from play =! reducing a warrior to ranger status. Hack is a fine addition to the game. Shields should not be uncounterable when other combat styles are, and now they no longer enjoy that status.

*Edit: at least those appearing on the skill-sheet. An argument could be made for hidden defense being more critical.

Edit # 2: I reread my first post and your reply, Eyeball, and perhaps the misunderstanding is not the same. A warrior isn't *relying* on dodge in that scenario of a master warrior dodging 4 opponents. Dodge is the first line of defense. If you're fighting 4 people and dodging them, that means you're dancing on their asses and just styling them. If you're frequently parrying you're in a bit of danger and if you constantly have to block (assuming you have a shield equipped), it's worse still and you're probably going to eat several hits in between those blocks. I wasn't saying the warrior was relying on dodge. I'm saying a 50 day warrior is so much better than four 10 day opponents, he only dodges, never parries or blocks.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on April 19, 2018, 04:00:32 AM
Keep in mind, Brokkr just mentioned the new classes will have higher caps on their shield use than an oldschool ranger. You may be glad for a hack option when this all eventually plays out in game, in mass. Having effectively used shield use on several burglars, I can both applaud the general shield-use higher caps, as well as a counter.

EDIT: Also, keep in mind, parry is generally shit for deflecting arrows... otherwise everyone and their mother would etwo.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 19, 2018, 04:36:14 AM
"Suggesting hack makes a warrior = ranger in combat capacity is ridiculous."

I didn't suggest this, you did, by claiming a master warrior can effectively dispense with a shield and dodge. If that's so, then a master ranger can be just as good, with a defense as high and a parry nearly as high, and with a whole bunch of wilderness skills a warrior doesn't get. It might take longer to get there (which I sort of doubt, especially given how rangers have higher wisdoms from what I've seen), but so what.

At this point, we don't know how many classes get this skill. From what little I've observed, it doesn't have a penalty to its use like disarm and bash do. So a few "hackers", even with only a 10% chance per strike, could quickly reduce a shield.

This makes shields less effective. The most distinguishing feature of a warrior, in my opinion, was high shield use. So it makes warriors less effective.

But who knows, maybe warriors (or their equivalent) will just start carry a few light shields in their inventories now. EDIT: maybe we'll even see non-combatants serving as shield dispensers.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on April 19, 2018, 09:26:23 AM
My concern with Hack is primarily in that it will be an actual skill, but right now it is just a simple ability.

If it requires only chopping weapons? That might be fine.

If the delay is significant? Fine.

If it takes multiple hacks at a shield to damage it enough to be obliterated? Fine.


Warrior, as a class right now, is more defined by Disarm and Bash than it is tanking with high shield use. As others have said, the new Guilds will have higher shield use than before. I'm concerned, as others, that the Heavy Combat Classes will see a lesser defined role, but I don't think that has anything to do with Hack as a skill. There seems to be a lot of limitations to it right now, and like threaten, I wonder how often it will even see use.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 19, 2018, 10:31:11 AM
It is an actual skill. Most folks are using the functionality that exists for anyone to use it, just like anyone can kick.  There are new classes with the actual skill on their skill list though.

Abilities are something completely different.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on April 19, 2018, 10:45:03 AM

I didn't suggest this, you did, by claiming a master warrior can effectively dispense with a shield and dodge.

You're misunderstanding. Even holding an intact shield, a day 50 warrior is going to dodge 4 day 5 opponent's strikes,  not block. That's how combat code works in this game. Secondly, five low level warriors are no more likely to spam hack successfully by virtue of numbers than they are to kick down a master warrior. There's  a reason people don't complain about a wave of fresh characters murdering old timers by spamming kick, and it's because the kicks don't connect. Similarly, five people hacking at you will likewise not be a problem, because a master warrior has high enough innate defense to avoid or mitigate it. The fact that you also think that the moment a shield is out of a warrior's hands means you've neutralized what makes a warrior a warrior bespeaks to me a relative inexperience with armageddon combat. I'm sorry if that's blunt, but perhaps you should gather some practical experience before suggesting what is effectovely a balance patch for shields is horribly unfair to warriors. I'm a warrior and this is fine.

On the subject on practical experience, Riev:

Hack requires a chopping weapon.

It has similar delays to disarm or kick.

I connected four times on a gith shield and dropped it to used. I hacked perhaps 12-15 times to do it. 4 Stam a hack same as bash.

I don't have the skill so I'm going to hypothesize damage will increase with skill. But given the delays and the fact that a low defense compared to my offense gith dodged me 70% of the time... I'm not worried.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 19, 2018, 02:18:52 PM
The fact that you also think that the moment a shield is out of a warrior's hands means you've neutralized what makes a warrior a warrior bespeaks to me a relative inexperience with armageddon combat.

Possibly. I played one of the very first master warriors, but shields didn't block back then and parry was much more effective. Since then, I've had a habit of retiring characters before they reached their full potential.

In any case, time will tell. It looks to me like the class changes will produce a spectrum of abilities instead of the stark differences we see between current classes, and starting skill levels will be higher, which will make it difficult for anyone stand out anymore.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 19, 2018, 02:49:32 PM
Eyeball. Let's just say shield use is more effective then parry. Not by much. Maybe twice as much, or three times, or ten times as good?  I'm exaggerating, sorry. But shield use is the method a warrior can tank 15 spiders while the rest of the byn band are chipping them away, one by one.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on April 19, 2018, 03:59:25 PM
Eyeball. Let's just say shield use is more effective then parry. Not by much. Maybe twice as much, or three times, or ten times as good?  I'm exaggerating, sorry. But shield use is the method a warrior can tank 15 spiders while the rest of the byn band are chipping them away, one by one.

Shield use is not as effective as parry. If you have to choose between one or the other, parry is far superior.

A fighter with jman shield and no parry branched holding a sword and shield will get utterly trashed by a fighter with only a weapon (no shield) and jman parry.

The reason the persistent myth of shield use as the ultimate style (archery battles not withstanding) has remained is because if you have parry and shield use, you get both rolls on top of your defense. It's not that block is AMAZING, it's just that you get a third chance (after dodge and parry fail) to escape damage, which is great. But it's because shield use is on top of parry, not better than parry.

Parry is worlds away better than shielduse.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 19, 2018, 04:07:34 PM
Not really the place to stray into this conversation, as the topic has stopped really being relevant to the release notes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: worldofsand on April 19, 2018, 05:08:23 PM
It's ok, just split the derail and put it in a thread in the code forum.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bushranger on April 20, 2018, 11:25:34 AM
My only point about the Hack skill is that with damaging armor becoming more (much more?) common I hope that the armor repair skill become more common as well. Currently you have to be a full merchant, an Armor crafter specialist or a mercenary subguild to have any chance of maintaining your armor more than simply emote rubbing it with a rag. Will my full time fighter, raider, enforcer or soldier, heavy combatants who would be expected to have and care for their armor, have access to the Armor Repair at a level to patch it at least long enough to last an expedition between having it in at Salarr for a full overhaul with this new Hack skill smashing it all up?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 20, 2018, 01:13:49 PM
My only point about the Hack skill is that with damaging armor becoming more (much more?) common I hope that the armor repair skill become more common as well. Currently you have to be a full merchant, an Armor crafter specialist or a mercenary subguild to have any chance of maintaining your armor more than simply emote rubbing it with a rag. Will my full time fighter, raider, enforcer or soldier, heavy combatants who would be expected to have and care for their armor, have access to the Armor Repair at a level to patch it at least long enough to last an expedition between having it in at Salarr for a full overhaul with this new Hack skill smashing it all up?

Greater need for armor repair is one reason I actually like this idea.
But the armor repair with Salarr is usually so cheap, it's hardly worth wasting time with armor repair skill, instead of just sending the armor in for repair at the shop anyway.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: worldofsand on April 20, 2018, 02:26:59 PM
That's because the armor repair person seems to be coded to just change the armor size into your size, and then repairs the item in the process. So if the item was already your size, it has the minimum cost and still repairs it at no additional price. That has been my observation, anyway.

On the topic of hack, I maintain that it should be for shields only. It totally makes sense to have a skill that breaks down shields. It doesn't make a lick of sense to have a skill that damages a piece of armor without being an actual attack on that person. That's kinda... not how physics work. People in this world wear leather and chitin, you can't hit them in such a way as to damage their armor without causing bodily harm to them. And you can't make a skill that just gives you an extra free attack because then the opportunity cost of not using it is such that everyone will spam it just for the extra swing, and that'll be obnoxious as hell.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 20, 2018, 02:30:03 PM
Is there a penalty for failing the skill? Like kicking, bashing, disarming, all of that can be reversed. If you bash and fail, you go prone. If you disarm and fail bad, your own weapon goes flying. If you kick and the guy is so much better at you, you go prone as well.

What's the penalty for failing hack?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: worldofsand on April 20, 2018, 02:38:20 PM
"You try to hack at the tall, muscular man's armor, but he reverses the move and hacks your cracked tembo-hide cuirass instead."

Just kidding, but it doesn't quite make sense. I think the delay itself is the penalty.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: SilkyBoi on April 20, 2018, 03:47:13 PM
Don't forget the critical fail.

You slip and clumsily hack apart your tembo hide cuirass.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on May 27, 2018, 11:52:17 AM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1012588.html#msg1012588

Riposte
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Riposte

Oooo.  Combat Stances.   This is awesome.

I hope they eventually open up combat moves for sneaks.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LucildaHunta on May 27, 2018, 12:51:59 PM
I wish I had time to play. This looks very, very interesting.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Large Hero on May 27, 2018, 12:53:40 PM
I'm curious as to how riposte has been balanced with the other weapon types, considering that it can only be used with slashing. More attacks that are harder to block or parry are pretty powerful.

Maybe this just means that stuff like hack will be restricted to chopping/bludgeoning (is this already the case?), or the other weapon types will get their own special attack.

I guess we'll see how it unfolds! At any rate, I applaud adding new stuff to the game. I prefer adding things frequently as parts over time, like how hack and riposte have come in, as opposed to adding a bunch of commands at once after a very long design period.

Cool changes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 01:20:16 PM
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Is Friday on May 27, 2018, 01:23:21 PM
Great.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jozhole on May 27, 2018, 01:24:07 PM
Will the other skills like razor weapons and whatnot be getting any skills?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Is Friday on May 27, 2018, 01:26:04 PM
Will the other skills like razor weapons and whatnot be getting any skills?
Tier 2 weapon skills are limited to Gladiator characters, so doubtful.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on May 27, 2018, 03:41:41 PM
Will the other skills like razor weapons and whatnot be getting any skills?
Tier 2 weapon skills are limited to Gladiator characters, so doubtful.

You're kidding right?!?!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on May 27, 2018, 03:49:51 PM
Is this again only available to new beta classes, or will warrior have access?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: cshoov on May 27, 2018, 03:53:14 PM
For clarification, does entering the riposte stance limit you to only ripostes, or do you attack normally as well?

If it's the latter, I assume there's some sort of drawback, right? Otherwise why would anybody not always be in the riposte stance if they're able?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 03:58:56 PM
Riposte as a skill is on new class skill lists.  For folks that do not have it on their skill list, I believe it will work with some level of base ability, like hack.

Drawbacks, if any, can be discovered as one uses the skill.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on May 27, 2018, 04:02:28 PM
Ah, so based on other skills or abilities, it still has a base chance for success even if it’s not on your skill list?

Just speaking from the standpoint of playing a “master warrior” that might suddenly be rolled by scrubs with access to skills that the master warrior can’t utilize. That is helpful at least.

Thank you for the code work! Very cool to see things like stances and weapon based abilities added to the game. Super fresh.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on May 27, 2018, 04:44:19 PM
I am going to ask a question, and my delivery will probably be shit so I apologize if it comes off as attacking, it is not meant to be. Why aren't these new skills being incorporated to the current classes where it would make sense? Riposte stance for instance, why wouldn't a warrior have it?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jihelu on May 27, 2018, 05:07:00 PM
I am going to ask a question, and my delivery will probably be shit so I apologize if it comes off as attacking, it is not meant to be. Why aren't these new skills being incorporated to the current classes where it would make sense? Riposte stance for instance, why wouldn't a warrior have it?
The logical part of me says something like "It would be hard to impliment cause code" But staff overhauled archery and made it into separate skills just fine. I am curious as to the answer to this as well.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on May 27, 2018, 05:18:48 PM
Yeah, I deliberately played a regular guild because I was afraid it'd be my last chance to really give it a try before the overhaul, but all this beta-exclusive cool stuff makes me want to store so I can play with the new skills. I don't want to want to store!

EDIT: Hopefully this doesn't sound like an actual complaint. The only reason I feel this way is because it's super exciting. We'll all get to play the new classes eventually!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on May 27, 2018, 05:52:20 PM
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 06:04:14 PM
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.

I wondered who it would be to point that out.  Yes, technically it is a subset of piercing, since the piercing weapons skill governs it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on May 27, 2018, 06:06:03 PM
Is there any chance of particularly long lived characters getting access to these new skills once the new guilds go in?

I mean, I get that these are advanced skills and not everyone is going to get them. But they do seem like fundamental combat skills that will set apart the new and old guilds by a decent margin once people with the new guilds can match the old ones.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on May 27, 2018, 06:15:16 PM
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.

I wondered who it would be to point that out.  Yes, technically it is a subset of piercing, since the piercing weapons skill governs it.

Stabbing is a subset of piercing and governed by piercing weapon skill but also separately by the hidden weapon-type vs race hit table. Backstab is obviously stabbing weapons, which leaves piercing weapons without a special ability. So it would be nice to see a piercing specific skill for those nomad spear-toters out there. Like a ‘thrusting’ or ‘jabbing’ ability that targets a victim’s joints (shoulder, elbow targetable to either es or ep) giving a chance at disarm whatever is being brandished or held? Perhaps polearms could do the same? Just as halberds should also be able to ‘hack’, razors be able to ‘riposte’.. or perhaps just allow piercing weapons to riposte as well since ‘rapiers’ are considered piercing weapons and are most realistically able to riposte?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 06:16:28 PM
I am going to ask a question, and my delivery will probably be shit so I apologize if it comes off as attacking, it is not meant to be. Why aren't these new skills being incorporated to the current classes where it would make sense? Riposte stance for instance, why wouldn't a warrior have it?
The logical part of me says something like "It would be hard to impliment cause code" But staff overhauled archery and made it into separate skills just fine. I am curious as to the answer to this as well.

It would be really easy to add riposte to warriors, from a code sense, due to work related by the new classes that Nessalin did.

So why don't we?

The first part of that answer is that by limiting to the new classes we are limiting to a small number of play testers that have agreed to report bugs and balance issues to us.  So we have time to see them in action on a small scale and figure out any bugs, but also figure out if they unbalance play or change the combat dynamic in a way we didn't anticipate, without making this an issue needing urgent attention because we rolled it out to the entire player base.  We have until the new classes go live to essentially test and tweak them.

The second part of that answer is around what happens after going live.  The long term revolves around the new classes, but there will be all the existing classes from existing characters for some time.  We aren't crafting the new classes to be compared to the old classes.  So lets say warrior gets some skills that one of the new heavy classes does not, but the new heavy class gets riposte.  If we give warrior riposte, do you think we will be opening ourselves up to eternal comparisons on why we should add the skills warrior got but the new class didn't to the new class, because we were willing to give warrior the new skills?  That is where we (and you can totally blame me for this) don't want to go, and would rather prefer that warrior keep its unique flavor, while there are still warrior characters around, distinct to the new classes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 06:20:21 PM
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.

I wondered who it would be to point that out.  Yes, technically it is a subset of piercing, since the piercing weapons skill governs it.

Stabbing is a subset of piercing and governed by piercing weapon skill but also separately by the hidden weapon-type vs race hit table. Backstab is obviously stabbing weapons, which leaves piercing weapons without a special ability. So it would be nice to see a piercing specific skill for those nomad spear-toters out there. Like a ‘thrusting’ or ‘jabbing’ ability that targets a victim’s joints (shoulder, elbow targetable to either es or ep) giving a chance at disarm whatever is being brandished or held? Perhaps polearms could do the same? Just as halberds should also be able to ‘hack’, razors be able to ‘riposte’.. or perhaps just allow piercing weapons to riposte as well since ‘rapiers’ are considered piercing weapons and are most realistically able to riposte?

We are not unaware of this, and have an idea or two of what we could do, but haven't mapped out or committed to anything there.  If we added a skill, it would be much more likely to add something in that is not currently possible, rather than simply replicate what is already possible.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on May 27, 2018, 06:23:30 PM
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.

I wondered who it would be to point that out.  Yes, technically it is a subset of piercing, since the piercing weapons skill governs it.

Stabbing is a subset of piercing and governed by piercing weapon skill but also separately by the hidden weapon-type vs race hit table. Backstab is obviously stabbing weapons, which leaves piercing weapons without a special ability. So it would be nice to see a piercing specific skill for those nomad spear-toters out there. Like a ‘thrusting’ or ‘jabbing’ ability that targets a victim’s joints (shoulder, elbow targetable to either es or ep) giving a chance at disarm whatever is being brandished or held? Perhaps polearms could do the same? Just as halberds should also be able to ‘hack’, razors be able to ‘riposte’.. or perhaps just allow piercing weapons to riposte as well since ‘rapiers’ are considered piercing weapons and are most realistically able to riposte?

We are not unaware of this, and have an idea or two of what we could do, but haven't mapped out or committed to anything there.  If we added a skill, it would be much more likely to add something in that is not currently possible, rather than simply replicate what is already possible.

The fact that you’re thinking about it is good enough for me! Thanks for the additions, the updates and the quick responses!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cabooze on May 27, 2018, 07:06:34 PM
Will the other skills like razor weapons and whatnot be getting any skills?
Tier 2 weapon skills are limited to Gladiator characters, so doubtful.

You're kidding right?!?!

I seriously hope this is a joke too.  :-\
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on May 27, 2018, 07:08:51 PM
This is not a joke. Based on previous commentary,  iirc, all advanced weapons will be collected under a single exotic weapon skill and provided to gladiators only.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cabooze on May 27, 2018, 07:11:32 PM
This is not a joke. Based on previous commentary,  iirc, all advanced weapons will be collected under a single exotic weapon skill and provided to gladiators only.

..But why? Why limit and restrict the game even more? This is disgruntling.

Us and Armageddon is like living in a mansion with no keys. Every other day, a door is being locked, and a cupboard is being unlocked. Sure we get to tinker with these things now available to us, but what we had for the longest time is now gone? It almost seems like we are getting small consolation prizes for what's being taken away. ...Why?

I'm not trying to incite any toxicity or negativity, I'm just being realistic and trying to understand.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: TheWanderer on May 27, 2018, 07:44:55 PM
Are you not entertained?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Rathustra on May 27, 2018, 08:01:11 PM
This is not a joke. Based on previous commentary,  iirc, all advanced weapons will be collected under a single exotic weapon skill and provided to gladiators only.

..But why? Why limit and restrict the game even more? This is disgruntling.

Us and Armageddon is like living in a mansion with no keys. Every other day, a door is being locked, and a cupboard is being unlocked. Sure we get to tinker with these things now available to us, but what we had for the longest time is now gone? It almost seems like we are getting small consolation prizes for what's being taken away. ...Why?

I'm not trying to incite any toxicity or negativity, I'm just being realistic and trying to understand.

The 'advanced weapon skills' were restricted to a single guild and had maybe, at best, a half dozen objects for each. Some more popular ones had more objects, others had maybe one or two. The skills were added a long time ago and never developed. When attained they didn't grant anything beyond a new degree of combat prowess - no special moves or unusual techniques. They were just like the regular skills - only with exotic weapons.

The items aren't being removed and will now probably get more use. Plus we don't have to awkwardly try and make four different categories that somehow encompass every unusual type of weapon. Heck, maybe we could even focus on distinguishing these exotic weapons in a more meaningful way than gateposting them at the very extreme ends of combat grinding.

To compare a completely new combat skill that works across every possible slashing weapon, factoring in each weapon's individual qualities to a cupboard and these empty, featureless weapon skills to a room doesn't work.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 08:34:45 PM
In conjunction with what Rath said:

These skills tended to not be used even when they were branched.  They acted more as a goalpost than actual skills folks made use of.  They make more sense as a skill that anyone can make use of (Penned Gladiators) in a context that also makes more sense IC'ly.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on May 27, 2018, 08:42:00 PM
I feel like that'd make more sense if the weapons were actually that weird and exotic. Some were, yes, but many were pretty ordinary. Hopefully this change will inspire some new objects that are weirder and more geared towards showmanship than a simple polearm--and maybe some of the plainer ones can be reclassed into basic weapon types.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on May 27, 2018, 09:16:19 PM
I am going to ask a question, and my delivery will probably be shit so I apologize if it comes off as attacking, it is not meant to be. Why aren't these new skills being incorporated to the current classes where it would make sense? Riposte stance for instance, why wouldn't a warrior have it?
The logical part of me says something like "It would be hard to impliment cause code" But staff overhauled archery and made it into separate skills just fine. I am curious as to the answer to this as well.

It would be really easy to add riposte to warriors, from a code sense, due to work related by the new classes that Nessalin did.

So why don't we?

The first part of that answer is that by limiting to the new classes we are limiting to a small number of play testers that have agreed to report bugs and balance issues to us.  So we have time to see them in action on a small scale and figure out any bugs, but also figure out if they unbalance play or change the combat dynamic in a way we didn't anticipate, without making this an issue needing urgent attention because we rolled it out to the entire player base.  We have until the new classes go live to essentially test and tweak them.

The second part of that answer is around what happens after going live.  The long term revolves around the new classes, but there will be all the existing classes from existing characters for some time.  We aren't crafting the new classes to be compared to the old classes.  So lets say warrior gets some skills that one of the new heavy classes does not, but the new heavy class gets riposte.  If we give warrior riposte, do you think we will be opening ourselves up to eternal comparisons on why we should add the skills warrior got but the new class didn't to the new class, because we were willing to give warrior the new skills?  That is where we (and you can totally blame me for this) don't want to go, and would rather prefer that warrior keep its unique flavor, while there are still warrior characters around, distinct to the new classes.
Yeah I get that, totally understand where you are coming from. I say it sucks, but I suppose it will have to suffice, and we can still use those skills regardless I suppose.


Another question on riposte, if you are going defensive, like say not attacking back, and you go into riposte, will the attacks happen or not?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 10:39:28 PM
No, ditto nosave combat.  Assuming no bugs.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on May 27, 2018, 10:57:06 PM
Works for me. Thanks Brokkr!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cabooze on May 27, 2018, 11:02:38 PM
This is not a joke. Based on previous commentary,  iirc, all advanced weapons will be collected under a single exotic weapon skill and provided to gladiators only.

..But why? Why limit and restrict the game even more? This is disgruntling.

Us and Armageddon is like living in a mansion with no keys. Every other day, a door is being locked, and a cupboard is being unlocked. Sure we get to tinker with these things now available to us, but what we had for the longest time is now gone? It almost seems like we are getting small consolation prizes for what's being taken away. ...Why?

I'm not trying to incite any toxicity or negativity, I'm just being realistic and trying to understand.

The 'advanced weapon skills' were restricted to a single guild and had maybe, at best, a half dozen objects for each. Some more popular ones had more objects, others had maybe one or two. The skills were added a long time ago and never developed. When attained they didn't grant anything beyond a new degree of combat prowess - no special moves or unusual techniques. They were just like the regular skills - only with exotic weapons.

The items aren't being removed and will now probably get more use. Plus we don't have to awkwardly try and make four different categories that somehow encompass every unusual type of weapon. Heck, maybe we could even focus on distinguishing these exotic weapons in a more meaningful way than gateposting them at the very extreme ends of combat grinding.

To compare a completely new combat skill that works across every possible slashing weapon, factoring in each weapon's individual qualities to a cupboard and these empty, featureless weapon skills to a room doesn't work.

I didn't mean to make it out as I'm belittling the work that you all are doing, I just feel like for what you're adding on and expanding on, you've still got a number of things behind locked doors that I would love to see represented in the gameworld again, such as the rest of the elements having their subguilds worked out, or even allowing for full magick guilds put behind a karma wall. I've long been striving for the chance to play one of those (drovian/nilazi), but it's no longer possible.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: 650Booger on May 27, 2018, 11:12:49 PM
despite staff denials, I'm choosing to believe that this Riposte feature is the first step in making combat more tactical
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on May 28, 2018, 03:06:25 AM
When did they deny that? It’s patently obvious that’s part and parcel with the changes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on May 28, 2018, 07:28:56 AM
I am amused by the staff response of "These skills barely used anyway." Like the players don't want to use them. When in fact they do. The advanced weapon skills are not used because a of, well, let us call it a code flaw (not really a flaw)...Alright, quirk. In that by the time you gain the advanced weapon skills it it is nearly impossible to raise them to any degree because you are already so good you miss 1 in 100 swings verses the Flash.

Riposte....I don't know yet, will reserve comment. Interesting idea.

I am more worried about the new classes, the more I learn the more I think that players and staff really do not understand balance and why Arm has worked for so many years.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Rumor on May 28, 2018, 08:05:14 AM
I am more worried about the new classes, the more I learn the more I think that players and staff really do not understand balance and why Arm has worked for so many years.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the new classes. I'm reserving any judgment on them until we have an exact idea what each class is capable of and their skill cap potentials. Balance is tricky to accomplish in a multiplayer, pvp capable game. Incredibly balanced and competitive games with long life spans such as Counter Strike and Starcraft (franchise) accomplish what they do due in large part to balance and the limit to variation between options (rock - paper - scissors game design elements), so I'm curious to see how having so many main classes will affect the competency environment across the game.

Being amazing at combat, thieving and crafting will have to have some sort of deficiency elsewhere, but what I hope to see with so many classes coming in, that those deficiencies are much less apparent. I'd prefer to see something rewarding longer lived characters, despite it already being said that we may have potentially higher starting abilities than we're used to. Again, I'm curious and hopeful it plays out much less jarring than I think many people are hyping themselves up to believe it will be and still feel like a natural experience.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: 650Booger on May 28, 2018, 01:43:31 PM
When did they deny that? It’s patently obvious that’s part and parcel with the changes.

Quote
Riposte is the only stance we have, or have planned, for the time being.

-Brokr in ATS
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bebop on May 28, 2018, 02:01:14 PM
It looks like the game was just patched.  Is it down or WIP?  I currently lost link and can not log on.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on May 28, 2018, 02:05:52 PM
There's some ginormous lag, it basically crashed.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on May 28, 2018, 02:24:50 PM
Didn't crash, wasn't lag.

Went into an infinite loop.

Bug fixed and rebooted.  Since it was stuck in a loop it wasn't operating without user input.  In other words no one died.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bebop on May 28, 2018, 02:58:36 PM
Didn't crash, wasn't lag.

Went into an infinite loop.

Bug fixed and rebooted.  Since it was stuck in a loop it wasn't operating without user input.  In other words no one died.

I think something may have just happened again.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on May 28, 2018, 03:31:48 PM
Same issue.  Forgot to compile, last time.  Herp derp.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 28, 2018, 03:53:03 PM
When did they deny that? It’s patently obvious that’s part and parcel with the changes.

Quote
Riposte is the only stance we have, or have planned, for the time being.

-Brokr in ATS

Cherry picking my response aside, this would only make sense if you only viewed stances as the only thing we could do to make combat more ‘tactical’.  Pretty sure we could find other ways to introduce additional combat tactics if it made sense to do so.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Erythil on May 28, 2018, 05:14:56 PM
What is the downside of riposte stance?

Which classes get it?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: cshoov on May 28, 2018, 08:02:39 PM
What is the downside of riposte stance?

Drawbacks, if any, can be discovered as one uses the skill.

whomp
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: AdamBlue on May 29, 2018, 05:48:08 AM
Dude, the new classes are gonna be fucking sick.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 29, 2018, 11:00:20 AM
I'm very disappointed about the Advanced Weapons rework.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: cshoov on May 29, 2018, 01:11:35 PM
I'm very disappointed about the Advanced Weapons rework.

Alright, I'll bite: Why?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on May 29, 2018, 01:21:26 PM
This whole "staff never adds anything but only takes away" perspective kind of blatantly ignores a lot of things that have been added or expanded. I realize it's easy to focus on the negative, I've done it in the past as well, but for goodness' sakes, you can be disappointed about something without crying doom and gloom and entropy.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 29, 2018, 01:56:02 PM
I'm very disappointed about the Advanced Weapons rework.

Alright, I'll bite: Why?

I have gotten to Advanced Weapons on a couple PCs, and attempted to utilize them before. However the time involved, and the trickery one has to engage in just to attain them is very much a lengthy goalpost. In addition to the amount of work you then have to put in for them to be more worthwhile than the base weapon skill you had to master just to get it. So why WOULD you use Polearms if you had to spend 30days GETTING Polearms, and then its more worthwhile for you to use Axes because THEY are at master?

But I liked them. I tried to use them. Unfortunately, I kept dying, or storing once I got them. I once engaged in terribly twinky tactics to get Knife Weapons, only to have Nyr almost blacklist me for it, and only because I asked Salarr for custom-crafted knife weapons (which is not easy to say... you need a knife edge... but not a 'normal knife')

I'm just sad that its being shifted to Gladiator-only, and frustrated that the reasoning is because "nobody uses them". It'll be interesting to see these "stances" come about, but I don't necessarily agree with where "exotic weapons" have landed yet.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 29, 2018, 03:01:05 PM
That isn't the only reasoning.

Branching where and like they do creates a set of issues, most prominent being they tend not to be used because by the time someone gets them, they are usually fairly skilled, which means improving them is harder.

To solve that problem folks need to get them earlier, which created different problems in figuring out how to deal with 8 weapon skills instead of 4 in allocating them across the classes.  Compounding that is that 4 of those weapon skills have only a fraction of the number of weapons created for them, which potentially means a huge creation project to get them anywhere near equal.  Add to that getting 4 weapon skills maxed isn't really a problem we tend to have, so its not like we are creating a situation where you relied on the 4 additional weapon skills to continue weapon skill improvement.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 29, 2018, 04:48:37 PM
I was just going off what you both had said about how people don't "use" them even when they have them, which was kind of mis-information considering a lot of people don't even get to that level in the first place. Like saying "we're no longer letting people climb the mountain because most people only climb it once, plant a flag, and then never go back".

I will say, no salt intended, that it sounds like in your response that one major reason these were adjusted was because it was too much work to balance them with the idea of each weapon skill having a "purpose". Which I get. Its much easier to add 4 features than it is 8, and then balance them with 155 different combinations of whatever.

That is why I am disappointed. It feels like something that I had attempted to reach time and again has been removed, and the reason is because its "not worth it". Which makes the 3-4 PCs I'm had that DID get there, feel like they weren't worth it. It just kinda feels like a sock to the gut to say "That thing you keep trying isn't actually available anymore. Please play in Allanak with a slashing weapon instead."
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on May 29, 2018, 06:08:06 PM
This whole "staff never adds anything but only takes away" perspective kind of blatantly ignores a lot of things that have been added or expanded. I realize it's easy to focus on the negative, I've done it in the past as well, but for goodness' sakes, you can be disappointed about something without crying doom and gloom and entropy.

Honestly, I think we're impossibly hard to please at this point.  But I also think it's because things got wrested in certain directions so hard that even the -possibility- of things going back in ways some of us like has us taking deviations from that -particular- course harder than we should.

In other words, I agree, but I think it's also understandable on my (and others') part.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on May 29, 2018, 06:29:07 PM
I've been playing for a long time now, and I am excited to see these changes taking effect. When it comes to Arm, for me, what is fun about it is the immersible environment and the roleplay with others. The character I am playing and the skills they have will still allow me to delve deeply into a role, and it makes me happy that I will have more choices than 'ever' before. From what has been revealed so far, the new classes are going to have more versatility, not less, and that in itself is enough for me.

Thanks for all your efforts, staff!  ;)

ME
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: AdamBlue on May 29, 2018, 07:49:53 PM
I don't think people even remember that we actually have fire arrows now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on May 29, 2018, 08:00:28 PM
I don't think people even remember that we actually have fire arrows now.

Or that two-handed combat style used to be Jihaens only.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on May 29, 2018, 08:12:18 PM
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Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on May 29, 2018, 08:50:04 PM
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Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on May 30, 2018, 01:16:48 AM
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.
I wondered who it would be to point that out.  Yes, technically it is a subset of piercing, since the piercing weapons skill governs it.

Will weapons that are a subset of slashing be usable with riposte?
Currently it needs to be a slashing weapon. Slashing weapons do not have a subset like piercing does (stabbing). Branched weapons are different weapons and do not relate.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: seidhr on May 30, 2018, 03:21:56 AM
I feel like that'd make more sense if the weapons were actually that weird and exotic. Some were, yes, but many were pretty ordinary. Hopefully this change will inspire some new objects that are weirder and more geared towards showmanship than a simple polearm--and maybe some of the plainer ones can be reclassed into basic weapon types.

Indeed.  It probably makes a lot of sense for some(most?  all?) of the knife weapons to just be ported to slashing or piercing weapons for example.

When I think exotic weapons that Zalanthan gladiators would use, my mind wanders to stuff like a weighted chain, flails, whips, etc.

There are probably like...  40, total, "advanced" weapons defined - with most of them not even being represented in the game as attainable short of some kind of special GMH order. 
* Razors are most common, but are (from a short audit I just did) universally terrible, stat-wise, for fighting.
* "Knife" weapons have never made any sense (how are "knife" weapons different from uh... "kniiiiiife" weapons) and it's just kind of silly.
* Tridents barely exist (there are only a handful even defined).
* Polearm weapons basically do not exist.
* Pike weapons - exist, but no distinguishing quality vs. anything else.

You'll still be able to use them - I mean, they're not going to shock you if you pick one up.  You might even be able to fight halfway decent with one if the item's been ported to a weapon type that makes sense, that PCs can actually become good at.  People crying doom and gloom about the special category for these, I dunno what to tell ya.  :P  It feels like moping about some exclusivity being gone.  You'll have to find some other high water mark to strive for.  I can already see one (looking at the class trees).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on May 30, 2018, 05:01:25 AM
I reeeaaally want to test-play a heavy mercantile role, which I assume they don't have many of since no one was playtesting an Artisan a while back, but I don't want to give up my current.

I don't want to decry too badly, but these weapons you are describing sound like they either need refurbishing or reclassifying or they're a part of the past. It would be kind of cool to see them around though, and razors, yeah, that sounds hard to kill something with.

But tridents sound so cool.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on May 30, 2018, 06:10:30 AM
I dont really see much use for razors myself, at least beyond a slitting of the throat ala backstab, otherwise I dont see them being used much in combat, I have seen a few Razoring weapons that do make sense to be used as weapons though.

Pikes? Yeah I can definately see those being used, if not for standard but for killing large game like mekillot where getting too close would probably spell the end for anyone. Might be if someone wants to figure out a way to code giving them a damage boost the bigger the critter?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Erythil on May 31, 2018, 10:10:36 AM
What if exotic weapons functioned as an 'ability' that some classes got, and worked off your base weapon skill for skill grinding purposes?  Tridents would work off of piercing, for instance.  Preserves them as a long-term goal and removes them as a secondary grind.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 31, 2018, 10:24:36 AM
What if exotic weapons functioned as an 'ability' that some classes got, and worked off your base weapon skill for skill grinding purposes?  Tridents would work off of piercing, for instance.  Preserves them as a long-term goal and removes them as a secondary grind.

I mean. They're going to be gone, and I don't see that changing. Not enough people were using them, and its too much of a pain to make them more inline with other skills.

I am still disappointed. It may be the morning's salt intake, but it sounds like it was "too much work" to bring this already-existing system in line with staff views, and it was "easier" to just give them to an incredibly small subset of players (gladiators) and focus instead on making sure each Base weapon skill has a "thing".

With a volunteer staff, it always comes down to the basic issue of "What is easier to do?" versus "How do I want to do it?"
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on May 31, 2018, 10:47:11 AM
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Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 31, 2018, 10:51:15 AM
There are, Molten.

piercing weapons can backstab
bludgeoning can sap
chopping can hack
slashing can riposte


And that's it. Regardless of the Razor ability to destroy weapons/armor, or a knife-weapon's ability to bypass armor, these four main types have a "thing" associated with the now to make the choices more of a CHOICE than "I guess swords this time?"

"Exotic" weapons had things to them, moreso than just "other people don't have the skill." There was a SERIOUS ADVANTAGE if you could get skill up with them, but the way the game is coded, that wasn't easy without some twinking. So "nobody" was using them, and you'd never see how powerful they were.

Its easier to just remove them, than fix them. To fix them, a volunteer has to be interested and spend time on it, which right now none of the like 16 volunteers are interested in. So they're just being removed for now, and we get "Hack and Riposte" instead.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on May 31, 2018, 11:01:47 AM
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Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on May 31, 2018, 11:09:43 AM
Wouldn't it be "easier" to filter the old advanced weapon types into their respective root-branch of weapons? Or possibly just the basic weapon type that makes sense? Possibly not, given I don't know if they'd still carry their (eta) -alleged- "perks" and somehow end up the most sought after weapons available.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 31, 2018, 11:34:46 AM
Wouldn't it be "easier" to filter the old advanced weapon types into their respective root-branch of weapons? Or possibly just the basic weapon type that makes sense? Possibly not, given I don't know if they'd still carry their "perks" and somehow end up the most sought after weapons available.

For some of them, I wouldn't mind if the "Tridents" suddenly became a subset of piercing, like "stabbing" is. Or if a "pike" is a subset of Bludgeoning (whyyyyyyyyyyy) or whatever.

Of course I want to use razors for their coded ability, but damn would I like to be carrying around a glaive as a subset of slashing. Let me still have the ability/damage of a 2h slashing weapon, but let me determine what I want my slashing weapon to be.

Or give me back my Pike weapons for my mounted warriors.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on May 31, 2018, 11:46:02 AM
I mean I’ve had a 50 day warrior who didn’t move past journeyman in weapons skills. Due to oblique code and a focus on RP I guess. Still kicked butt, but it sucks that you have to be X-D or never even dream of branching an advanced weapon. I’d rather that esoteric achievement be removed and a focus on things like combat stances and combat moves to really emphasize a difference between Scrub and Master. Combat between two master warriors is so unbelievably boring as it stands, so I’m glad Staff is adding some dynamics to different specialties to set them apart.

Rumors of what Advanced Weapons were capable of were sometimes patently obvious, and other times just as esoteric and unconfirmed. At least Staff is now putting it out there in a chart. Though playing a long lived PC now, excited to try out a new combat class for sure.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on May 31, 2018, 12:05:53 PM
Or y'all could just, I don't know... play a gladiator? You can play them as secondary PCs. Instead of pretending you'll never ever get to play around with exotic weapons now. Sorry but this really seems like mountains out of molehills.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on May 31, 2018, 12:11:45 PM
I would just like to see the gladiators' exotic weapons actually be showmanlike. Stuff like whips, weird flails, multi-bladed weapons. Stuff that looks good but isn't really practical for someone outside the Arena. Not shit like "kniiiiiives."

Then we can move weapons that really are quite ordinary, such as polearms, into regular weapon categories, and continue to add interesting features associated with them like hack and riposte.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 31, 2018, 12:16:58 PM
Or y'all could just, I don't know... play a gladiator? You can play them as secondary PCs. Instead of pretending you'll never ever get to play around with exotic weapons now. Sorry but this really seems like mountains out of molehills.

The intended idea for my PC is to be someone who fights with knives. I do not get to play out that aspect as a Penned gladiator.
The intended goal for my new AoD PC is to become a Sergeant over a unit who fights exclusively with Pike Weapons.
I have an idea for a PC who utilizes razor weapons, while working for Salarr, to purposefully increasing their profits with destroyed armor.
I would like to play a Jihaen someday (hahahahh).

So. No, its not "play a penned". I don't miss the weapon skills because hurhurhruhru weapon skills, I miss them because they could be vital points to a goal or planned part of a character's progression. I cannot follow that progression as a penned gladiator.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 31, 2018, 12:19:49 PM
The only intended coded advantage I could find for the advanced weapon skills (which is none of the stuff you are talking about) was replicated to the normal weapon skills for the new classes.  Even the unintended advantage of razors was redesigned into the hack skill.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: seidhr on May 31, 2018, 06:41:50 PM
"Exotic" weapons had things to them, moreso than just "other people don't have the skill." There was a SERIOUS ADVANTAGE if you could get skill up with them

This is actually not true.  There was a side effect of razor weapons that was not intended, that they could destroy armor.  That was actually not a design decision and was because they weren't coded into some lookup table.  I think it may have even been fixed now.  None of the other weapon types did anything.  There is lots of conjecture out there that claims not-having-a-skill makes you worse at defending against that weapon type, but as Brokkr just said....  ^^

There is no advantage to any of them other than:  Hurrrrr durrrr I am very skilled warrior, I use "kniiiiiiife" weapons.

...so people OOCly may conclude that you are not to be trifled with - which is 100% silly.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on May 31, 2018, 06:51:12 PM
Off topic but a good way to disguise the fact that you're a player AND a staff member when you post on your player forum account is to sometimes rabblerouse a little bit so you look like a loose cannon. This has been useful in my own experience in other games as a same-time player/staffer.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on May 31, 2018, 06:55:18 PM
After talking about it with Ender...

Roll up all "exotic weapons" into a single exotic weapon proficiency, and make them truly exotic. Weird dark sun-eqsue weapons that are impractical for day to day combat but just look really cool, which explains why gladiators use them.

Fix tridents, pikes, knives, etc to all fall under a sensible category, e.g. polearms/chopping, tridents/piercing, etc.

Because let's be honest, the current exotic weapons aren't really exotic, and truly exotic weapons are exotic because they're impractical to use in everyday combat.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on May 31, 2018, 07:18:00 PM
Dual nunchaku! Three-section-staff! Kusarigama (actually surprisingly effective but still weird enough)! Meteor hammer! Vanilla pudding! Oh, and those nets Mhyrmidons or whatever they're called use. Teacup!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on June 01, 2018, 01:37:30 AM
After talking about it with Ender...

Roll up all "exotic weapons" into a single exotic weapon proficiency, and make them truly exotic. Weird dark sun-eqsue weapons that are impractical for day to day combat but just look really cool, which explains why gladiators use them.

Fix tridents, pikes, knives, etc to all fall under a sensible category, e.g. polearms/chopping, tridents/piercing, etc.

Because let's be honest, the current exotic weapons aren't really exotic, and truly exotic weapons are exotic because they're impractical to use in everyday combat.

100% this.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on June 01, 2018, 07:03:04 PM
I don't think people even remember that we actually have fire arrows now.

what? Please. Point. To. Help. File. Omg.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on June 01, 2018, 10:59:50 PM
I don't think people even remember that we actually have fire arrows now.

what? Please. Point. To. Help. File. Omg.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg958295.html#msg958295

"-Arrows can now be lit off of torches and campfires, increasing their damage nominally for a short period of time.  When the first goes out the arrow will be blackened, resulting in it doing slightly less damage, and preventing it from being lit again."
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on June 02, 2018, 03:39:59 AM
Maybe move all exotic weapons into an 'exotic' or 'gladatorial' category that is just like any normal weapons category, which gladiators start off as being slightly proficient in (apprentice) or moderately proficient in (journeyman) so long as they choose a 'gladiator' subguild.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on June 10, 2018, 12:59:33 PM
As a genuine question...

How much utility is there for listen_wilds?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on June 10, 2018, 01:17:12 PM
Listen isn't just for overhearing conversations.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on June 10, 2018, 01:22:33 PM
While I agree with Delirium's response, what is the main point of separating them? What Problem is the staff trying to solve? Hide and Sneak makes complete sense, but this..I think is overkill.

Here is the Helpfile:

Listen                                                            (Detection)

   While appearing to do little at all, effective use of this skill in fact
begins a time period during which conversations in other rooms may be
heard. Conversations at tables can be overheard, and if the skill level is
great enough, doors can be listened through.

Syntax:
   listen [on|off|status]

Notes:
      Listen has some effect on the detection of stealthy activities that can
make noise.

   Listening takes concentration, and so while in use your maximum stun is
decreased based on how good you are at listening.


Delay:

After
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on June 10, 2018, 01:29:10 PM
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Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on June 10, 2018, 01:42:27 PM
Sounds like now it will be almost impossible to branch certain ranger things from listen.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: CodeMaster on June 10, 2018, 01:49:35 PM
Sounds like now it will be almost impossible to branch certain ranger things from listen.

Try to stay positive.  How are you drawing this conclusion?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on June 10, 2018, 01:53:36 PM
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Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on June 10, 2018, 01:59:44 PM
A number of play testers were rather strident that the wilderness classes have some way to detect certain stealth.  Hopefully they didn’t just want to overhear conversations, since it makes zero sense for wilderness folks to get that in their toolbox, so they don’t.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on June 10, 2018, 02:15:58 PM
A number of play testers were rather strident that the wilderness classes have some way to detect certain stealth.  Hopefully they didn’t just want to overhear conversations, since it makes zero sense for wilderness folks to get that in their toolbox, so they don’t.

What about scouts going out to try to figure out the enemies plans...Im just...I get it, realism realism realism...But the Realism vs Playability balance needs to come into account also.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: IronGold on June 10, 2018, 02:17:50 PM
What about a scout? Sending a scout out to watch an enemy and listen for any details on movements or information....that seems pretty vital for them in that sense. I'm not talking about a spy in a city, but watching and listening to raiders from cover in the brush or in a war situation where a spy is listening from under sand cover from nearby troops.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Insigne on June 10, 2018, 02:21:52 PM
Steering the current topic a little but...
Quote
-Added subguilds for beta testing.
New subguilds? Where? :o
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on June 10, 2018, 02:25:04 PM
Do you have similar plans to break up scan into city scan and wilderness scan?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on June 10, 2018, 02:38:42 PM
Steering the current topic a little but...
Quote
-Added subguilds for beta testing.
New subguilds? Where? :o

(https://objects-us-west-1.dream.io/secrettoeverybody/images/secret.png)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Malken on June 10, 2018, 02:55:15 PM
Do you have similar plans to break up scan into city scan and wilderness scan?

It's been done a long time ago, no?

Edit: Oh, you mean making them two different skills in the skill list.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: only_plays_tribals on June 10, 2018, 02:55:58 PM
What about a scout? Sending a scout out to watch an enemy and listen for any details on movements or information....that seems pretty vital for them in that sense. I'm not talking about a spy in a city, but watching and listening to raiders from cover in the brush or in a war situation where a spy is listening from under sand cover from nearby troops.

What about scouts going out to try to figure out the enemies plans...Im just...I get it, realism realism realism...But the Realism vs Playability balance needs to come into account also.

all secret plans are to be discussed outside the gate five leagues inside a tent.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: roughneck on June 10, 2018, 03:19:04 PM
As a genuine question...

How much utility is there for listen_wilds?

This is where I’m at. Listen can be marginally helpful if you don’t have scan... but really, listen’s usefulness is listening in on conversations, not the other things it does.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on June 10, 2018, 03:56:21 PM
Sounds like now it will be almost impossible to branch certain ranger things from listen.

Try to stay positive.  How are you drawing this conclusion?

Skills related to listening well in the wilderness, like knowing what movements make sounds so you can move silently, are learned from listening. I don't understand how to fail at listening out in the wilderness. My 5 day ranger had listen always on outside. It never got any better. If it wasn't due to the thief subguild that special skill not mentioned here would have never branched.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on June 10, 2018, 04:02:28 PM
Do you have similar plans to break up scan into city scan and wilderness scan?

It's been done a long time ago, no?

Edit: Oh, you mean making them two different skills in the skill list.

No, I don't mean that - and I don't think so? If you play a character with city sneak/hide, you tend get spotted by hunters.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on June 10, 2018, 04:35:30 PM
It'd be really cool if this change meant that some new utility (and skillup opportunities) for wilderness listen could be eventually added. It'd be neat if wilderness listeners, for example, got a message when a PC/NPC/mob entered or left one of the adjacent rooms.  "You hear sounds of movement to the west."  Things like that!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on June 10, 2018, 05:25:32 PM
It'd be really cool if this change meant that some new utility (and skillup opportunities) for wilderness listen could be eventually added. It'd be neat if wilderness listeners, for example, got a message when a PC/NPC/mob entered or left one of the adjacent rooms.  "You hear sounds of movement to the west."  Things like that!

This happens already with scan I believe.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on June 10, 2018, 05:37:41 PM
It has never happened for me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on June 10, 2018, 05:58:28 PM
It has never happened for me.

foic
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: CodeMaster on June 10, 2018, 06:58:29 PM
Sounds like now it will be almost impossible to branch certain ranger things from listen.

Try to stay positive.  How are you drawing this conclusion?

Skills related to listening well in the wilderness, like knowing what movements make sounds so you can move silently, are learned from listening. I don't understand how to fail at listening out in the wilderness. My 5 day ranger had listen always on outside. It never got any better. If it wasn't due to the thief subguild that special skill not mentioned here would have never branched.

I don't know either, but my understanding is that rangers still have the legacy listen skill.  From what I've heard about the new guilds, they're designed around minimizing some of this grind.  The pickpocket guild for example is one of the toughest nuts to crack in terms of branching skills.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on June 10, 2018, 08:22:18 PM
As a note, the purpose of my question was to find out if listen had also been changed to add utility to it.

In it's current form, listen as listen_wild is pretty much a skill for a nincompoop.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on June 10, 2018, 10:47:40 PM
Unless listen_wild gives you something akin to the watch command in that you 'hear' activity very far to the south or something without having to actually look or watch in that direction.. I'm also having a hard time understanding why this was separated into city/wilderness varietals.

For playability, a keen ear should be a keen ear.. whether it's voices you're hearing or the clatter of giant insect claws across terrain, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on June 10, 2018, 11:03:29 PM
I think it is more an ability to separate ambient sounds of the current environment from sounds that shouldn't be there.

Edited to add: I do believe, however, conversations held in the wilderness should be part of this, if it isn't.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on June 10, 2018, 11:08:11 PM
I agree with Vox, it makes little sense to me, sound is sound...being good at telling what sounds are what in whatever noise is the same. I am as adept at telling if that is a deer or a squirrel in the woods at 40 yards as I am at listening to conversations in bars two booths away.

Also, wind...I do not have a problem with it being harder, but not at all? Come on.

Also...the sound of conversation tends to really travel in the woods when you are actively listening. I have heard people talking and thought they were on my property...go to check and find out they are 300 yards away down the hill 50 yards outside my fence. True, that is when the wind is blowing towards me.

Which, if you actually want to be realistic, Sound travels very well with the wind...make wilderness listen directional in all but the strongest storms. That would be cool. I have had people upwind of me 70 yards not hear when I fire a .22 rifle in a good 15mph breeze.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on June 10, 2018, 11:14:37 PM
If it works like wilderness/city scan it's probably "it still works, but you're better at it in the correct environment."

So with desert listen, you aren't savvy Aide Amos, sidling up to Tressy and Talia to hear their bar conversation, but you might still overhear some of their chit-chat, or a guy trying not so well to follow you in the street. But, because you're Dusty McDunesman, you can hear a goudra sneaking through the brush at fifty paces, and sidle up on that encampment in the dunes to hear their plans for a dawn attack like nobody's business.

That's how I would assume it works based on the way wilderness vs city hunt and scan already work.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on June 10, 2018, 11:33:28 PM
Our ears can pick up thousands of sounds over a few seconds. What we choose to listen to is a matter of training.

This is why my spouse never can hear me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Insigne on June 10, 2018, 11:38:40 PM
It'd be really cool if this change meant that some new utility (and skillup opportunities) for wilderness listen could be eventually added. It'd be neat if wilderness listeners, for example, got a message when a PC/NPC/mob entered or left one of the adjacent rooms.  "You hear sounds of movement to the west."  Things like that!
+1

In a similar line of thought, I'd love to see some kind of feedback when a stealthy attempt to enter a room fails. Something like 1) a hemote-esque echo:

Code: [Select]
The tall, muscular human arrives from the west.
(You notice he is trying to avoid notice.)

... or 2) a different room arrival echo:

Code: [Select]
The tall, muscular human stealthily arrives from the north.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on June 11, 2018, 01:32:06 AM
I can foresee people losing ability to hear things during powerful enough storms, while people with listen still able to figure things out.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on June 11, 2018, 01:47:35 AM
I was sort of meaning to take a break, but reading the last two pages has got me excited.

I am not confused because I sort of assume that the new listen skills will fall conveniently into place under the new skills system, much like riposte and hack will.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on June 11, 2018, 10:00:33 AM
I like Dar's idea, but I say take it a step further and make it so you have to shout in sandstorms to be heard, and even then only in the same room. The listen skill could give you a chance of hearing normal volume speech in the same room or shouts in the next room, but whispering and all that is out.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on June 11, 2018, 10:08:14 AM
I like Dar's idea, but I say take it a step further and make it so you have to shout in sandstorms to be heard, and even then only in the same room. The listen skill could give you a chance of hearing normal volume speech in the same room or shouts in the next room, but whispering and all that is out.
+1
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on June 18, 2018, 12:24:23 PM
Latest release changes listen so wind speed reduces ability, does not block it.  Thanks for the feedback.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: deskoft on June 18, 2018, 12:29:13 PM
I love the fact that this factors into listen, but I haven't tested it!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: azuriolinist on June 18, 2018, 01:15:03 PM
Latest release changes listen so wind speed reduces ability, does not block it.  Thanks for the feedback.

This is awesome. I can't wait to check it out.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on June 19, 2018, 01:08:03 PM
Not sure if this is the best place to discuss, but oh my, I'm loving the help file for Adventurer. "Help Adventurer" and "help adventurer branching" together let me know exactly what I'm going to get from the class.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: WithSprinkles on June 19, 2018, 01:49:12 PM
Not sure if this is the best place to discuss, but oh my, I'm loving the help file for Adventurer. "Help Adventurer" and "help adventurer branching" together let me know exactly what I'm going to get from the class.

This post actually prompted me to look at the files. Let me just say:

YAAAAS!
(http://www.photos-a-la-con.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/image-drole-jesus-carlton1.gif)

Love it! Dunno if this is currently being done, but mage subguild branching info would be useful too.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on June 19, 2018, 02:02:45 PM
Not really the place, but there is a plan to have a place soonish (next couple of weeks).

There are no plans to make magick any less mysterious.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: KankWhisperer on June 21, 2018, 03:37:00 PM
Will city / desert elves still be restricted to certain classes in the new system?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on June 29, 2018, 11:21:57 PM
Will city / desert elves still be restricted to certain classes in the new system?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on June 30, 2018, 09:57:00 AM
Will city / desert elves still be restricted to certain classes in the new system?

(https://i.imgur.com/8WhGI2V.jpg)

I believe someone said
Criminal is City Elf
Wilderness is Desert Elf
General/City is Both.

Don't quote me on it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on July 03, 2018, 10:05:07 AM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on July 03, 2018, 10:10:06 AM
I'm so glad the new classes are live!

I noticed the CGPs are working now. I noticed I have less options now and I was wondering where I can learn more about how CGPs take to regenerate.

Thanks!

It is described in this staff announcement:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.0.html

Examples:
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on July 03, 2018, 10:59:44 AM
With the GCP functioning and the new classes in, when can we expect karma reviews to open up?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on July 03, 2018, 11:02:11 AM
My excitement and enthusiasm for the new classes (which is substantial) is matched only by my disappointment at the custom crafting changes. I just hope you guys will at least consider finding a way for magickers to CC in the future, because I feel like this is a big step back for making magick more interesting than just a bunch of coded spells. I know you felt it was rarely used, but magickers being able to CC opened the door for a lot more ritualistic/superstitious elements. I also get that this is supposed to encourage people to work together, but that's hard for gickers, especially when the crafts they want done are weird or esoteric in some way.

I know I've made this my pet issue and ranted extensively about it, but this is probably the last I'll bother complaining about it on the GDB. It's done and decided, and it was done and decided, it seems, long before I learned about it. I'm just holding out hope that you will keep your minds open to broadening who can CC a bit after you get a bit more data from the changes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on July 03, 2018, 11:12:48 AM
Mad props. I’m anxious to try these out.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on July 03, 2018, 11:36:24 AM
I'm so glad the new classes are live!

I noticed the CGPs are working now. I noticed I have less options now and I was wondering where I can learn more about how CGPs take to regenerate.

Thanks!

It is described in this staff announcement:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.0.html

Examples:
  • Player has 3/3 karma, uses 3 for a mul now they have 0/3.  30d they move to 1/3 karma. 45 days later 2/3 and then 45 days more 3/3 for a Total of 4 months.
  • Player has 2/2 karma, uses 1 and now has 1/2.  30 days later they get that one back.
  • Player has 3/3 karma, uses 2 and now has 1/3.  Normally they would recoup 1 and 30d and one at 45 d.  But let's say this player has a character die after a couple weeks.  Now they are at 1/3.  If they spend that one, now they are 0/3 so the first point will take 30 days to regen and another 45d on the next point.

More news from Discord:
Quote
Nathvaan - Today at 10:38 AM
If you have 3 karma you could choose a desert elf wind travel (4 karma total) because it only looks at the highest karma option to decide how much karma it 'costs'.
Riev, the Rimbly Jimbles - Today at 10:39 AM
So. Simply.
"Karma options are not additive/cumulative"?
Nathvaan - Today at 10:40 AM
Correct.  It's not CGP.  We went a slightly different route when implementing.
Riev, the Rimbly Jimbles - Today at 10:41 AM
Thank you for not just linking me to help CGP or something like that. I don't know what help file would contain that information, but I assume thats not public knowledge?
Nathvaan - Today at 10:44 AM
It should be but it's probably not clear.  I'll work on that to make sure it's transparent.
audi - Today at 10:45 AM
FYI, you probably should just delete 'help cgp' (and the links to it) since that's confusing and cut-and-paste the stuff in the gdb link you gave me into 'help karma'; should cover your bases.
Nathvaan - Today at 10:46 AM
@audi Yeah, agreed.  That's part of what we will do when trying to make sure all this is transparent... cleaning up the stuff that is muddying the waters.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: kroack on July 03, 2018, 02:00:43 PM
Very cool to have the new classes live.

I'd suggest getting the website dropdowns updated as soon as the html monkeys have time because that's definitely gonna confuse potential new players when they're trying to make their first character.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on July 03, 2018, 02:15:48 PM
Very cool to have the new classes live.

I'd suggest getting the website dropdowns updated as soon as the html monkeys have time because that's definitely gonna confuse potential new players when they're trying to make their first character.

Great point.  I totally forgot to get that updated.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on July 03, 2018, 03:00:55 PM

I'm seeing a bug ...

With an existing character, if from the login menu I hit "O" for class options, I only see the old classes, not the new ones.

Tried to bug it in game but it bugged one of the bracer's I was wearing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on July 03, 2018, 03:08:13 PM

I'm seeing a bug ...

With an existing character, if from the login menu I hit "O" for class options, I only see the old classes, not the new ones.

Tried to bug it in game but it bugged one of the bracer's I was wearing.

For accounts without characters who haven't logged in or for accounts who haven't logged into a character at least once this will look wrong.  I have it on my list to re-mediate this view as soon as I can manage.  If you don't have a character please login once.  If not then open a request and we can set it for you.

If you already logged in then please back out to the menu and you should see the right options at the O menu.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on July 03, 2018, 03:16:12 PM
I think Nath meant to say....If you have a character, please log in once.  If you don't have a character, open a request and we will try to fix it for you.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on July 03, 2018, 03:23:39 PM
Ah!

Yeah, logging into the character worked. I now see the appropriate options.

Should I be seeing the old subguilds available at 1 karma point? This is what I'm seeing:

Sub-classes:
a) Archer               d) Armor Crafter        e) Bard
g) Bounty Hunter        i) Caravan Guide        j) Con Artist
k) Crafter              m) Forester             n) Gladiator
p) Guard                q) House Servant        r) Hunter
s) Jeweler              u) Linguist             w) Mercenary
y) Nomad                aa) Outlaw              ab) Physician
af) Tailor              ag) Thief               ah) Thug
ai) Weapon Crafter      bu) Custom Crafter
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on July 03, 2018, 03:54:34 PM
You mean extended subguilds?

Spendable karma is now live.  You will only see options that you have available, spendable karma for.

We've been tracking karma spending for months now, it just wasn't impacting players in chargen.  So if you used karma options in the past, you could still be regenerating the spendable karma.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on July 03, 2018, 03:57:52 PM
Ah!

Yeah, logging into the character worked. I now see the appropriate options.

Should I be seeing the old subguilds available at 1 karma point? This is what I'm seeing:

Sub-classes:
a) Archer               d) Armor Crafter        e) Bard
g) Bounty Hunter        i) Caravan Guide        j) Con Artist
k) Crafter              m) Forester             n) Gladiator
p) Guard                q) House Servant        r) Hunter
s) Jeweler              u) Linguist             w) Mercenary
y) Nomad                aa) Outlaw              ab) Physician
af) Tailor              ag) Thief               ah) Thug
ai) Weapon Crafter      bu) Custom Crafter

There may have been an issue with what your current karma was set to.  I updated it on your account and it seems to have fixed the display issue. I will continue to monitor people's current karma value to see if there is any odd issues for some accounts.

Please everyone bear with us as we try and normalize everything.  It's always a bit of a pain to have backward compatibility with accounts that could have been around for decades!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on July 03, 2018, 04:03:28 PM
We've been tracking karma spending for months now, it just wasn't impacting players in chargen.  So if you used karma options in the past, you could still be regenerating the spendable karma.

o shit, I made a 2-point throwaway character.  :-[
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on July 03, 2018, 04:11:58 PM
There may have been an issue with what your current karma was set to.  I updated it on your account and it seems to have fixed the display issue. I will continue to monitor people's current karma value to see if there is any odd issues for some accounts.

Please everyone bear with us as we try and normalize everything.  It's always a bit of a pain to have backward compatibility with accounts that could have been around for decades!

Force updating it seems to have worked. I was seeing delf as a race option so it was picking up the 1, but not showing it in extended subguilds. Now I'm seeing everything as per before. Looks good.

Normalizing is going to take weeks. I get that. Hope my reports are helping.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: only_plays_tribals on July 03, 2018, 04:31:46 PM
Do the subclasses which have "listen" have city or wilderness versions of it established?

As in, if one takes a 0 CGP subclass of bard, do they get journeyman city_listen or wildnerness_listen or is it legacy?

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on July 03, 2018, 05:21:37 PM
Master Trader now has wilderness listen.  But they also have legacy listen.  All other subclasses have legacy listen, currently.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Zerero on July 03, 2018, 05:40:47 PM
I'm only seeing the old classes as well  :'(
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on July 03, 2018, 11:04:17 PM
Everyone prepared for the mass storage and suicide that's about to happen?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on July 03, 2018, 11:24:28 PM
Everyone prepared for the mass storage and suicide that's about to happen?

Explains why my character report hasn't been resolved.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on July 04, 2018, 06:32:16 AM
I don't know what happened, Lord Templar. Everyone in the city just got in line and walked out the gates and threw themselves off the shield wall....
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on July 04, 2018, 06:55:37 AM
People are already mistaking me for a new class and trying to employ me. I suppose I ought to exist from time to time, you know, log in. If you're having trouble getting employed right now, like you're a dwarf who wants to be a House crafter, this is a good time to get on the boat.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on July 04, 2018, 12:07:50 PM
When I search Custom Craft on the website there is a conflict of information between the first two entries. One says you need to be master the other does not.

Are the new custom crafter sub class limited to 1 entry per month?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on July 04, 2018, 12:24:03 PM
I'm a lot more in the bummed place than excited place at the moment. Merchant was by far my favorite guild, and as far as I can see, there is just no way to make the functional equivalent of crafting ability plus social skills (listen). Artisan doesn't have listen, fence doesn't start with listen (and doesn't have full crafting skills). So in order to get full crafting skills and my favorite merchant skills (really just listen), I'd have to spend a subguild, which would mean no custom crafting for me. Super bummed.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cowboy on July 04, 2018, 12:37:58 PM
Did you check out craftsperson?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on July 04, 2018, 01:38:31 PM
It's in the same category as fence--missing crafting skills.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on July 04, 2018, 01:44:00 PM
And we're talking big ones, the ones that allow you to just roll up a merchant without any preconceived notion about what house you want to join, if any. Craftsperson is missing bowmaking (Kurac). There is just no way to make a character that gets master crafting in anything that might end up relevant, and listen.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on July 04, 2018, 03:17:39 PM
I don't know what happened, Lord Templar. Everyone in the city just got in line and walked out the gates and threw themselves off the shield wall....

Krath Damn northy mindworms are at it again!  Release the Gaj!

Are you sure that will help the situation my lord?

Not at all! but at least we'll get to say that WE did the killing!

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: only_plays_tribals on July 04, 2018, 03:38:43 PM
Listen is a really important RP skill, especially for city-bound merchants IMHO. Scan is too honestly. I'd end up feeling like inattentive custom crafting slave labour I think, can't see anything secretly happening (no hemotes because no scan or watch) or hear anything secretly said (no tables/doors/whispers because no listen).

I mean that's why it's more fun to whisper your plans than way them right? Got to give someone a chance to hear...
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on July 04, 2018, 04:50:35 PM
Really happy to see custom crafting turn into its own sub guild. I always felt like too many merchants turned into Custom Craft Machines, especially when people saw they were around for 30-50 days played.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on July 04, 2018, 07:52:14 PM
Yes, now people who enjoy custom crafting a variety of things are instead shoe-horned into a very small, tight set of main guild choices. Woohoo. Unless you're a social/builder type player, in which case these changes just feel like yet another neuter to the things that are enjoyable about the game.

It feels like the more varied /more interesting variety of stealth, combat, and even crafting roles could have been accomplished without a huge nerf toward people who enjoy putting things in the game. But hey, I'm admittedly depressed and bitter, since the change to the guild structure was something I was seriously looking forward to until it came with a simultaneous, bad change to something I really enjoy (custom crafting). It feels like magicker change 2.0 in that regard: hey let's put in cool options and then take out these other things people really like.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on July 04, 2018, 08:15:40 PM
I don't remember exactly what thread it was but staff was very specific about the listen skill and the merchant guild that if you choose the right subguild you could be both master crafter and master spy and that combination was just too OP.  In fact, I'm fairly certain the new classes.were structured so that the master spy/merchant would no longer be an available option.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: hyzhenhok on July 05, 2018, 12:39:11 AM
...that sounds more like an issue with having a subguild that allowed you to tack perfect stealth onto any class, rather than an issue with merchant.

I always thought Merchant + Slipknife and Merchant + Outdoorsman were ridiculous combos, but the problem is Slipknife and Outdoorsman giving you all the skills you need to be competent in their domain. Compare to the combat extended subguilds.

Maybe once the subclasses are rebalanced staff will feel comfortable taking another look at the heavy mercantile.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: hyzhenhok on July 05, 2018, 01:21:33 AM
Can we get an update to help mastercrafting that explains the new rules in one place? I'm still not clear exactly on it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on July 05, 2018, 09:12:33 AM
Can we get an update to help mastercrafting that explains the new rules in one place? I'm still not clear exactly on it.

I agree its confounding.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on July 05, 2018, 10:45:18 AM
Friendly reminder that we all get to decide how we spend our free time.  This includes people who spend their's being staff on the game.  I wouldn't expect anyone to play the game if they don't enjoy it - likewise I wouldn't expect anyone to work on staff if they aren't enjoying it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on July 05, 2018, 10:58:29 AM
Friendly reminder that we all get to decide how we spend our free time.  This includes people who spend their's being staff on the game.  I wouldn't expect anyone to play the game if they don't enjoy it - likewise I wouldn't expect anyone to work on staff if they aren't enjoying it.

As staff, a new initiative was proposed in the form of new Classes.
Within that initiative, a policy regarding custom crafting was re-worked, but never finalized.
Rather than finalize that policy, the class initiative was rolled out, with classes/subclasses built around the proposed changes.
Players are now confused because no guidance has been given.
Staff will submit the help files when someone decides that is how they will spend their free time.

Would anyone accept this behavior from anywhere else? Would this behavior be ethically acceptable from any organization providing a good or service?




Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Medena on July 05, 2018, 11:37:20 AM

Would anyone accept this behavior from anywhere else? Would this behavior be ethically acceptable from any organization providing a good or service?

What the heck?

A mild and politely worded request for more information was expressed followed by a mild and polite reminder that staff are volunteers.  I am betting that an invective like this makes the staff feel a little less likely to want to spend their free time on the game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on July 05, 2018, 11:40:17 AM
With the new classes, a zero-karma subguild is offered that will allow you to custom craft any item that coincides with your crafting skills list. If you want to custom craft any item you must have this subguild (custom crafter) You no longer have to be master in the skill, you can submit a custom craft at any point.

I ask this sincerely, not to be snarky, even though it may sound that way. Did I miss something? This seems pretty straightforward to me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on July 05, 2018, 11:59:08 AM
Would anyone accept this behavior from anywhere else? Would this behavior be ethically acceptable from any organization providing a good or service?

Yes.  Yes.

Customer service and the customer experience aren't ethical obligations, even from organizations selling you a good or service, unless it is explicitly laid out in the contract that these are included in what is being sold to you.  I'm sure there are folks that have such a sense of entitlement that they believe they are, but that does not make it so.

I've been busy because my job and family take priority, but I will get to stuff when I can.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on July 05, 2018, 12:28:23 PM
I haven't suicided yet! But now when I look at options, I can no longer see the same choices that were there previous. Half-giant has disappeared from race, and many of the magicker subclasses I could see before are gone, as well as some of the extended subguilds. It seems random, because some are still the same costs. It does say I have max karma, so maybe there is something not right here?

I mean, max karma for me....

Edit: Not random. As the others below stated, karma does not match karma options. Do I have to die first? Cuz I will. :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on July 05, 2018, 12:51:35 PM
Would anyone accept this behavior from anywhere else? Would this behavior be ethically acceptable from any organization providing a good or service?

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/9ca519d3bab3b3d1a897a11c024d8c8d/tenor.gif?itemid=5927629)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on July 05, 2018, 02:52:35 PM
Anyway, I'm digging the new classes. While I was very wary of this sweeping of a change, there's several which actually support my playstyles much better than before. Some provide everything I want (crafting AND wilderness) before I ever even add a subguild.

The missing documentation is just going to take time to come together. I get that. But I'd like to ask, because I don't use Discord, that any big explanations of how stuff works which isn't yet in a helpfile maybe get cross-posted to the forum for posterity?  Doesn't even have to be done by staff ... just let the players pick it up there and bring it back here.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on July 05, 2018, 02:57:03 PM
I haven't suicided yet! But now when I look at options, I can no longer see the same choices that were there previous. Half-giant has disappeared from race, and many of the magicker subclasses I could see before are gone, as well as some of the extended subguilds. It seems random, because some are still the same costs. It does say I have max karma, so maybe there is something not right here?

I mean, max karma for me....

I'm having the same issue. Pressing O tells me that I have 2/2 karma, but I can only see the 0 and 1-karma options on my list.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on July 05, 2018, 03:15:52 PM
Yup, My race and guild options are not matching my karma level at all either.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on July 05, 2018, 03:49:54 PM
Yup, My race and guild options are not matching my karma level at all either.

Yup.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cowboy on July 05, 2018, 04:50:59 PM
Same here.  Mine was correct yesterday. incorrect today.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Scrumpkin on July 06, 2018, 10:37:38 AM
Friendly reminder that we all get to decide how we spend our free time.  This includes people who spend their's being staff on the game.  I wouldn't expect anyone to play the game if they don't enjoy it - likewise I wouldn't expect anyone to work on staff if they aren't enjoying it.

As staff, a new initiative was proposed in the form of new Classes.
Within that initiative, a policy regarding custom crafting was re-worked, but never finalized.
Rather than finalize that policy, the class initiative was rolled out, with classes/subclasses built around the proposed changes.
Players are now confused because no guidance has been given.
Staff will submit the help files when someone decides that is how they will spend their free time.

Would anyone accept this behavior from anywhere else? Would this behavior be ethically acceptable from any organization providing a good or service?

With regards to providing a good service, I highly doubt that the game is here to provide ANY service though I speak only for myself and not staff, and from a non-staff member looking at staff and what is accomplished I am compelled to say that we as players have to be patient and deal with the curves of the road ahead.  We as players need to understand that just like some players, staff have real lives that need attending, and some things have to take a place on the back burner.  So let's all just deal with it constructively, be patient, and give the staff some space to accomplish the many things that they have to, in the order they see fit.  It could be construed as a service, but generally services reap rewards that benefit the servicer as well as the servicee.   I personally appreciate all the hard work that goes into the game by the staff, and understand that I am owed nothing, but instead owe a few attributes to the game and player base, such as: contributing as high of a level of RP as possible, being patient, reporting bugs and problems I see in a passive manner, thus as a player I am not entitled to anything, but granted it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on July 06, 2018, 10:38:56 AM
I am looking into this.  Seems that fixing one bug did indeed introduce another! 

I hope to have this resolved shortly.  Your options are still correct they are just displaying in properly.

I'll update here when I have more information and an expected resolution time.  Thanks for letting us know!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on July 06, 2018, 11:11:33 AM
As a general note, I find it distasteful that its assumed I don't appreciate the work staff do, just because I hold them to a higher standard and expect more from them. Nobody has a monopoly on "appreciating" work.

Also related:
With the display bug as it is right now, if I were to make a new character while I am at zero karma, but the system is displaying 1karma options, could I make a character with the 1karma option? Does the system know I can't select it, and its JUST a display bug?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on July 06, 2018, 11:44:50 AM
As a general note, I find it distasteful that its assumed I don't appreciate the work staff do, just because I hold them to a higher standard and expect more from them. Nobody has a monopoly on "appreciating" work.

Well, I tried to bite my tongue on this and failed. So I apologize in advance for the derail, because this has nothing to do with release notes:

Your distaste is noted, Riev. It would be an extraordinary effort on everyone's part to fail to note your distaste.

The staff and playerbase, I believe, can be excused for making this distasteful assumption, however. Every scrap of evidence you offer via your forum post and discord communiques is supportive of a systematic and thorough lack of appreciation, shot through with a persistent vein of entitlement. 90% of your input into everything is derisive, both in content as well as language. You do not come across as a martyr draped on the altar of 'holding staff to a higher standard'. You come across as an unceasing font of vitriol and bile directed at both fellow players and the staff, determined to attribute to malice that which is easily explained by differing priorities.

Maybe that's presumptive of me. But if you find the assumptions of your fellow players and staff distasteful, perhaps you should reflect on the portion of the interface you are responsible for, rather than insinuating that you're being treated unfairly.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Scrumpkin on July 06, 2018, 11:45:41 AM
As a general note, I find it distasteful that its assumed I don't appreciate the work staff do, just because I hold them to a higher standard and expect more from them. Nobody has a monopoly on "appreciating" work.

Also related:
With the display bug as it is right now, if I were to make a new character while I am at zero karma, but the system is displaying 1karma options, could I make a character with the 1karma option? Does the system know I can't select it, and its JUST a display bug?

I was not assuming anything or saying anything about you Riev, I was merely stating my opinion on how I look at things.  Never once did I include that you do not appreciate, nor point a finger at you.  On the other hand, I see all the input that you give in the forums, and I have played under you, and I highly think that you are far more beneficial in anything that you do, or discuss.  Even if it's bringing up something I don't agree with, I'm comfortable doing it because I know I will get a good discussion.  That's why we have these discussions I would assume, so don't get any distaste, please.   :P
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cowboy on July 06, 2018, 11:49:56 AM
Agree with both of the last posts. 
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on July 06, 2018, 01:29:14 PM
The problem is fixed for me now. Thanks!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on July 06, 2018, 01:50:21 PM
I had the same problem with the karma options list, I asked about it last night and was assured it'd be investigated.

I just checked, and it's all fixed now, less than 15 hours later. Given that even people on the other side of the world has experienced "typical sleep-time" at some point within the last 15 hours, and everyone in the USA experienced MOST of their 6-8 hours of sleep in the last 15 hours, I'd say they investigated and fixed it in damned good time.

Thanks!

Love,
Lizzie ("i can haz karmas?") the Irk
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on July 06, 2018, 02:14:14 PM
I had the same problem with the karma options list, I asked about it last night and was assured it'd be investigated.

I just checked, and it's all fixed now, less than 15 hours later. Given that even people on the other side of the world has experienced "typical sleep-time" at some point within the last 15 hours, and everyone in the USA experienced MOST of their 6-8 hours of sleep in the last 15 hours, I'd say they investigated and fixed it in damned good time.

Thanks!

Love,
Lizzie ("i can haz karmas?") the Irk


+1 Thanks a lot staff. You guys spend a lot of personal, unpaid time to keep my main source of entertainment going and it is appreciated!

Oh yea. Anyone notice that the heavy crafters -start- with armormaking? I like that!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pale Horse on August 12, 2018, 05:17:46 PM
-Coded a new race.


Hmmmm....
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on August 12, 2018, 05:22:23 PM
Heeeell yeah!
Nessalin is sneaky! Hid something pretty epic in.

Granted he used toss to distract us and that in itself is pretty epic
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on August 12, 2018, 05:30:43 PM
THE UPDATES RECENTLY HAVE BEEN AMAZING

GOOD LORD.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Heade on August 12, 2018, 06:36:25 PM
Is there a help file on this race? When do we learn about this race? Why didn't he put this at the top of the changes? Why wasn't this bolded like the others. WE NEEDS TA KNOW!

THE UPDATES RECENTLY HAVE BEEN AMAZING

+1
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on August 12, 2018, 07:16:00 PM
-Coded a new race.


Hmmmm....

Yes, the Githillot lives!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on August 13, 2018, 03:31:11 AM
AH yes, the Super Killing Machines are now a race.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on August 13, 2018, 12:54:59 PM
And the muls are what? Chopped liver?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RabidMuffins on August 15, 2018, 10:18:15 AM
Is toss considered aggressive, though? I don't want to throw something silly and get ganked by soldiers.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on August 15, 2018, 12:09:55 PM
I love that you actually added toss! Beautiful!

I'm wondering if it's possible to toss something "IN" or "OUT" as well as in a cardinal direction as noted in the helpfile. If not, this would probably be a pretty important addition if possible, since a lot of caves are "in".

On a less important note, it'd be cool if you could toss something into a fall room to test depth. If you toss something into a room, maybe it could make a noise when it hits the ground that is audible with a (wilderness? any?) listen check from the room you threw it from. The more rooms down the bottom is, the longer it takes to hit the ground and the softer the noise is, until at a certain depth you can't hear it at all. This seems like it might be a bit tricky to code, but it's just a thought!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on August 15, 2018, 02:14:56 PM
I'm wondering if it's possible to toss something "IN" or "OUT" as well as in a cardinal direction as noted in the helpfile. If not, this would probably be a pretty important addition if possible, since a lot of caves are "in".

Coded for next release, yes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on August 27, 2018, 03:30:13 AM
The August 12 (26th edition) is by far my favorite one yet!

So many awesome crucial day to day points touched on and revamped for the bettererrr.

Kudos to all the staff who worked on this, The Shade I'm looking at you for this one.  (large applause)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JustAnotherGuy on September 05, 2018, 03:55:12 PM
Really love all the changes I am seeing, but I'm not certain I agree with the change hands allowing a free attack when changing from one hand to two hands on a weapon, and back and forth.  Now swapping two weapons or something a bit more challenging, I could see that offering a free attack.  It's a normal combat maneuver in fighting to move a weapon from one hand to holding it in two hands.  As someone that has taken sword fighting instruction, it's normal practice, it is apart of the skill of sword fighting.  If I was holding a weapon in both hands and trying to swap those... that would be stupid difficult.  Swapping a shield from one arm to another, that's difficult. Moving a weapon from one hand to another, not so much.

Just some feedback, but I love everything else. :D  Thank you for the great work
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on September 05, 2018, 04:47:26 PM
Really love all the changes I am seeing, but I'm not certain I agree with the change hands allowing a free attack when changing from one hand to two hands on a weapon, and back and forth.  Now swapping two weapons or something a bit more challenging, I could see that offering a free attack.  It's a normal combat maneuver in fighting to move a weapon from one hand to holding it in two hands.  As someone that has taken sword fighting instruction, it's normal practice, it is apart of the skill of sword fighting.  If I was holding a weapon in both hands and trying to swap those... that would be stupid difficult.  Swapping a shield from one arm to another, that's difficult. Moving a weapon from one hand to another, not so much.

Just some feedback, but I love everything else. :D  Thank you for the great work

I just picture the scene from The Princess Bride when they were switching from left handed to right handed.  They had to disengage and taunt while doing so... It wasn't an easy manuver.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on September 05, 2018, 05:24:06 PM
Please add "taunt" command, branched from "threaten." Invoked like tell; acts like expel.

> taunt amos Yo' momma was a desert rat! Yo' daddy smelt of kzul-berries!
You jeer at the tall, muscular man, in sirihish,
  "Yo' momma was a desert rat! Yo' daddy smelt of kzul-berries!"
The tall, muscular man reels back, staggered by your taunt.
You seize the opportunity and slash the tall, muscular man very hard on the superego.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: shadeoux on September 05, 2018, 06:04:52 PM
Please add "taunt" command, branched from "threaten." Invoked like tell; acts like expel.

> taunt amos Yo' momma was a desert rat! Yo' daddy smelt of kzul-berries!
You jeer at the tall, muscular man, in sirihish,
  "Yo' momma was a desert rat! Yo' daddy smelt of kzul-berries!"
The tall, muscular man reels back, staggered by your taunt.
You seize the opportunity and slash the tall, muscular man very hard on the superego.

Brytta Always has the great ideas...