Playing a noble

[Vanth]

A couple of us staff were talking about nobles, and how sometimes you'll have 5 people apply for an advertised role within days of the posting, and other times it's like the advertisement was written in Esperanto because no one reacts to it.  

It also seems, to me at least, that the same people tend to play nobles over and over again while players we the staff think might be good at the roles avoid them like the plague.  

So I'm just curious what the playerbase thinks about these roles.

[Cale_Knight]

I'm working my way up to a noble role. Not because I'm intimidated by the prospect, but because I don't think I have enough game experience yet to pull it off.

[cyberpatrol_735]

I'm inspired to app sometime, but first, I'd like to play a templar before a noble.. strictly because I've been in the militia and know how to react to things and such, whereas a noble, I know and have been around them enough to have a general view, but not a complete understanding of it.

Also, I'm a bit worried that the staff won't want me to play a role, why? I don't know, just doubt I guess.

In any case, yeah, I'd definently be up to trying it in the future.

And hey, when it doesn't work.. that's what assassins are for.

[Larrath]

I want to make absolutely sure that I've got enough leadership experience tucked under my belt that I'll be able to keep my underlings involved.
Until then, I will not apply for a noble... But once I do, I intend to app for one.

[ale six]

You forgot the option for

"Would absolutely love to do this in the future but I feel I'm too new to the game."

I picked other, but the above is sort of where I'm at. I'm not intimidated, I just don't think I have the game experience for it yet, same as Cale Knight.

Not to derail too much, but it'd be great if a page could be added about applications, maybe with examples that were accepted and rejected and why. Having something to give an idea what's expected might help encourage more people to apply? Just a thought.

[Gaare]

My experience with my noble was awesome. Role itself gives a large perspective to player which almost no other role can give. IMO the nobles(including templars) are most greedy, violent and aggressive characters of cities.  Showing those feelings with using other people as instrument and watching the process.. I really enjoyed the role. Hopefully I will play once again. Also I am not sure how much I was succesful on that but I like the feeling of entertaining others or making other players game play more enjoyable.

On the other hand, as Xygax said in another post; good leader players always create things and plots to entertain themselves and underlings (eh, being a good leader is a really difficult thing, at least for me). I kinda feel there are times for all leader roles, you sometimes login just for underlings or other players... That's maybe the single flow of noble roles.

[Demonaire]

My experience with my noble was awesome. Role itself gives a large perspective to player which almost no other role can give. IMO the nobles(including templars) are most greedy, violent and aggressive characters of cities.  Showing those feelings with using other people as instrument and watching the process.. I really enjoyed the role. Hopefully I will play once again. Also I am not sure how much I was succesful on that but I like the feeling of entertaining others or making other players game play more enjoyable.

On the other hand, as Xygax said in another post; good leader players always create things and plots to entertain themselves and underlings (eh, being a good leader is a really difficult thing, at least for me). I kinda feel there are times for all leader roles, you sometimes login just for underlings or other players... That's maybe the single flow of noble roles.

Gaare, I've played with you and you know who I am, and you're an amazing player using your role -- Thats all that can truely be said for what you're capable of doing. You fulfilled everything underlings every need, aside from sack loads of coin, but you get the picture. Like I've told you before, I'll look forward to playing with you again, my friend.


                 - Demonaire -

[flurry]

Playing a noble isn't at the top of my list of roles I'd like to try, but I'd try it.

To be honest, I don't really think I'm the type of player the staff wants to play a noble.  Not that I have a staff-brainz-eating complex, but it seems like the staff expect players of nobles to fit a certain type of profile (and rightfully so).

[jstorrie]

I've tried it, and enjoyed it a lot at first, but in the end didn't do very well at it. I think in my case it was just a question of irregular playing times (at the time), and that I might have been able to make something of it had my times matched up with a few more players. As it is, I ended up retiring the character and was pretty disappointed with how it turned out.

I probably wouldn't app for a noble again. I don't think it's really my thing.

[Underdark Song]

I'm just a newbie who doesn't know squat diddily, and that's my explaination.

[Delirium]

Other.

I have a concept in mind, but want to play other roles first and get more familiar with Allanaki politics and social RP.

[Anonymous]

I did it twice once before the return of Tuluk and once after.

It has been my impression that with the resurgence of Tuluk and noble families in Tuluk that the active noble playerbase has been divided between the two cities and that has reduced the number of active noble PCs you can expect to find at any given moment to the great detriment of the role.  When I was playing my first noble, a Borsail, the Trader's inn was often full of nobility, templars and merchants from Kadius and Salarr.  At one point there were four Fale nobles, 2-3 Oash nobles, 2 Borsail nobles and 1 Tor noble that were all active players that you could expect to be logged in every night.

Having around 10+ nobles along with their consorts/aides/assistants and three active templars and an active Templar's wife lead to a lot of roleplay not just in specific scheming for another's demise in one fashion or another, but just general stuff.  You developed really strong feelings about this noble or that noble and might despise one from a noble house but be very fond of his or her cousin from the same house.

Compared to today it seems like the lack of a concentrated noble playerbase has diminished the chance for complex inter-house roleplay.  It's anecdotal to be sure, but it's been my experience that there are generally 1-2 active nobles for a given house, meaning that there is going to be 2-4 nobles in Tuluk and 3-6 nobles in Allanak with varying amounts of playtime dedicated to the role.

This greatly reduces your chances of finding a noble counterpart to interact with let alone develop long term relationships with.  Not to mention that with four active houses you have a lot of things to consider when trying to get people to ally with you against members of another house since you never know where the other three houses stand.  

Bearing in mind that I've only played this mud for around 5 years now, I've always considered the period 4 1/2 years ago when I played my first noble and had upwards of 15 active noble/templar counterparts to interact with the golden age of noble roleplay.  I greatly miss the verbal sparring, the politely worded insult, the public snubbing and other facets of noble roleplay that used to abound over a full table in the back or the center of the Trader's inn.  So full that nobles late to the party had to take a table in the corner.

With all that in mind I've shied away from noble roles since my second one and the resurgence of Tuluk depleted what was a very active and very fun community of nobles all in the same city.

[WarriorPoet]

I've never felt I was subtle enough to play a noble, even a Nakki. Most of my characters are more blood&guts than silks&silver.

Besides. I'm not much of a special Apper. Writing the Immortals always makes me feel like I've got massive head trauma and I can't quite seem to get my point across to the doctors on -exactly- what I need, so I end up bleeding to death.

I'm also curious. Aside from the staff placing the call for apps and then choosing from among them, are there any other ways to get a noble role? Vanth says that players the Imms 'think might be good for the role', but how we WE know what you all are thinking? I might be a Noble house Immortal's wet dream, but I won't know it unless I'm informed by them, personally, because I don't intend to special app for -any- noble role, much less EVERY noble role that comes along. So, do Immortals get to pick and choose their own Nobles and the like from among the playerbase, or is it by special app only?

I might be more likely to special app to play a noble if I got an email like:'Hi, Bob the Immortal here. Just dropping in to say that your last character was very interesting and well played. I've noticed your playing style is consistant and that you seem to have a good grasp of politicks here in Bonghit, Arkansas. I happen to have a position opening up in the next few days in House Mansa, and I thought that **you** might be interested in creating a concept, before the horde of Apps floods in...'

-WP

[moab]

I played one.  It was cool.  Problem was (and probably others have said this - haven't read the replies yet) there was never enough people around to get things done.

There is one city to many in this beautiful world of ours.

[sacac]

I havn't played a noble and probably wont because an Imm hasn't wanted me to be one.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I had a great time playing a noble.  It's definitely something I'd do again... after I've given a few other things a try first.

[ashyom]

I'm also curious. Aside from the staff placing the call for apps and then choosing from among them, are there any other ways to get a noble role? Vanth says that players the Imms 'think might be good for the role', but how we WE know what you all are thinking? I might be a Noble house Immortal's wet dream, but I won't know it unless I'm informed by them, personally, because I don't intend to special app for -any- noble role, much less EVERY noble role that comes along. So, do Immortals get to pick and choose their own Nobles and the like from among the playerbase, or is it by special app only?

I might be more likely to special app to play a noble if I got an email like:'Hi, Bob the Immortal here. Just dropping in to say that your last character was very interesting and well played. I've noticed your playing style is consistant and that you seem to have a good grasp of politicks here in Bonghit, Arkansas. I happen to have a position opening up in the next few days in House Mansa, and I thought that **you** might be interested in creating a concept, before the horde of Apps floods in...'
-WP

On the flip side, we staff have no way of knowing who's interested in playing a special app role, or a noble, or something unique in a clan until you email us.  I think that's what Vanth meant - that there are a number of people who we think would do well in these roles, but gives us the impression that they're avoiding these roles because they never let us know they're interested.  We're not psychic either.

Although I understand the desire to be invited personally, it's difficult to.  Consider that our pbase is around 200-300 players, and we have this informal etiquette rule to not solicit players who are in roles.  So, we're caught in the dilemma of waiting until characters die or store before trying to contact the player.  However, this is often next to impossible since players tend to apply for a new role rightaway, and by the time we learn that soandso has died, it's too late.  As result of this, and faster approvals, personal invitations have dwindled.

So, we've started to rely on open calls in the Staff Announcements instead; basically it's up to players to let us know that you're interested nowadays.  Hell, I'm more than happy to get "I have an idea for a role!" or "I'd like to play a noble, is there room?" emails in between advertising for roles.
-Ash

[Ghost]

I have not played a noble, and I don't think if I will.

For first, the role looks boring when looked from afar.

Second, well.. I am not sure if I am an enough of an entertaining leader for the players.

I've never felt I was subtle enough to play a noble, even a Nakki. Most of my characters are more blood&guts than silks&silver.

You play the guts & blood in an amazing way.

[Marauder Moe]

I'd like to play a noble some day, but there's a few other character concepts I want to try first.

[Rhyden]

I've never played a noble before, but I've played close to nobles many times. I think I could pull off an -ok- noble but there's just never been an opening when I had an insignificant or no character at all. :cry:

[Maybe42or54]

I'm just not a very good leader. In effect, I'd rather not be that important. Besides, I am more into the nittier, cliche-full types of humans.
Not that I play them well or anything.

[proxie]

Did it. Twice. Years ago. One north, one south that kindof shouldn't have happened that way.

I loved it, it was a lot of fun, but. I messed it up badly. I know this. And I wouldn't ask for another noble role, and probably would think -very- hard before I accepted one if someone offered it to me.  Not because I don't want to, but because I know it's not a good match for me.

Politics isn't everybody's game, and it sure isn't mine. I'll take a nice valet or guard any day of the week over a noble. I could pinpoint where things started going awry ic'ly. It usually started right as soon as I got involved in anything political. I also made other mistakes too that would make me shy away from such things.

Sides, I love crafting. Adore it. Gimme a warehouse of materials and I'm content.

But if you're curious about if you could be one, then ask some of your clan imms what they think. If you don't have any former clan imms, then that may be a good first step. Get yourself known as someone who works and plays well with others. If all else fails, apply and see what happens.

Proxie

[Seeker]

Never played a noble role, but I explored some opportunities.  Once, in the pre-app discussion, we agreed it just wasn't a good fit between the heavy restrictions of the House in question and my own play style.

With my second attempt into the nobili-sphere, the next House I contacted declined.

It has since dropped off my short-term radar.


Seeker

[bloodfromstone]

Not sure if I'd be right for the part, myself. Not only am I still a super-newbie who doesn't know what's going on or what I'd doing, I also don't know how much I would enjoy the role, and given that I'd have a bunch of people relying on me, that's something I'd want to be sure of. Add a kind of erradict work schedule that leads to rather inconsistant playing times, and you've got about a thousand reasons that I shouldn't/wouldn't want to play a noble.


But maybe one day it'd be fun.

[EvilRoeSlade]

There is one city to many in this beautiful world of ours.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Incognito]

I see that a good number of folks have voted on the poll in the "Other" category - myself included.

My reason for choosing the "Other" category was:
1) None of the other options fitted.
2) I did apply for a couple of noble roles but wasnt the one selected for it.

I am posting this just coz I think there might be a few others who voted in the "Other" category, in the same silt-skimmer as me! In case Vanth is wondering why so many folks are voting in that particular category ;)

[Barzalene]

I loved my noble. She was interesting. I don't know if anyone else enjoyed her, but I enjoyed playing her. I think the reason that I had success was because I didn't see her as filling a noble role, but rather I saw her as a personality who happened to be in a noble role. As for the structure, I liked that. I like the challenge of making things happen within a set perameter. I'd reccommend it.

[Boggis]

I've played one noble and in general I found it enjoyable. Upsides for me were definitely the IC power you have, the full money bags to make things happen around you, the various plots that generally just fall in your lap and a quick Imm response time to questions. Downsides were that as a noble you have to be prepared to let other people do virtually everything for you. If you're a hands-on kind of person it can be very hard to just sit back and let other people have at it. Also, you have to be prepared to be patient as things don't happen overnight. For me what did it in the end was the desire to just go and do what I wanted when I wanted and I decided to retire. I don't regret the role at all - it was an enjoyable experience and I would probably consider playing one again but not for a while as it can be a demanding role trying to keep a number of hires all busy and interested. I'd recommend anybody who wants to play a templar to give a noble a go first.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Leadership positions make me cringe. I hate feeling like I HAVE TO LOG ON, or else I'm a BAD LEADER who is RUINING OTHER PLAYERS ENJOYMENT and will likely see a dozen HOW TO ROLEPLAY A LEADER posts on the GDB due to my ineptitude.
Whether I'm a Byn Sergeant or a noble, I'd rather lead a pack of rabid halflings than other players. I don't want Arm to feel like a responsibility. I have enough of that in real life.

[Dracul]

OTHER: I suppose you would I'm working up to a noble.

I emailed a while back, in between announcemnets, and asked if there were any open noble roles. I was told I needed some more politcial experience and should play an aide to a merchant or noble because of lack of politikal RP.    Went ahead and did that, although from what I already knew (between the rinth, commoners, and the militia) I didn't learn much.

I've experimented with leadership roles...heh...and the worst kind. Being the guy who doesn't really have any authority...but still tries to organize groups in dangerous places. Think redstorm. Nobody stays...and then I die myself eventually .

I'm currently eyeing up something that'll give me the perfect experience, but I think I'd play a great noble, and just haven't yet. I also yearn for some leadership positions.

[SpyGuy]

I got the chance to play one and it was ok while I was doing it.  But looking back on the role I really hated it compared to some of my other experiences on Arm and so ended up retiring after a forced break (yay hurricane!) and then taking a long break from Arm.  There are some people that can play a noble beautifully and though I hope I did decently in the role it also bored me to death.  I strongly doubt I'll ever play one again and I'm fine with that, there are alot of awesome roles in the game to keep me interested.

The problem I had with being a noble was that I felt I was more beholden to my underlings than they were to me.  I -needed- there help to get anything done, they had 10 other offers on their plate.  And since at the time both the military arm of my clan and the servant arm, despite both players' and staff's best efforts, were dead.  Both branches were beginning to be set up again and then suffered set backs of character deaths/retirements/etc.  So there were too many nobles in the clan without anyone to direct.  And so all my attentions turned inward and it ended up being in house bickering and the like and I got fed up with it.  It was like RPing through neighborhood politics and in a game, with a leadership role that I felt responsible to play.  Until I retired, and I felt guilty about that too so it was really a no win situation for me.

I suppose my biggest gripe is that I like to take a hands on role, even in RL I hate giving someone an order if I can't in some way help them do it myself.  And in a noble role, or more particularly my concept and House, just didn't allow that style of play.  Not for me but to each his own, I loved all the characters I had to interact with but didn't necessarily like all the interactions I had with those characters.

[Bestatte]

I tried for a templar role once. The IMM at the time said he'd set me up when my existing character died. Then he quit IMMing. Then my character died. So I apped again, the same role, when another IMM was advertising for one. Part of the rejection note was "frankly, you are displeasing to me."

I decided at that point I wasn't going to bother apping for any kind of special role, and didn't, for a very long time.

Then, months later, I was told I should try apping for less responsible positions. Got rejected thrice in a row on three different apps, in response to advertisements from the staff. Partly because they felt my existing character was too "known" to retire, partly because of some bad notes on my account.

I've come to the conclusion that I'm not cut out for answering any requests for special roles, however I'll still send the occasional word out to this or that IMM if I feel like giving an -un-advertised role a shot.

[Vox]

The Noble role is a very good one when there is an active Political playerbase involved.  Yes the individual can create their own plots and take the reins as a leader but that's ultimately making things interesting for other people. Which is of course part of the job, but you also have to balance out what makes it fun for YOU or like many nobles, you just burn out and stop logging in.

As has already been highlighted the world has one city too many. The addition of Tuluki Nobles after Tuluk was rebuilt was one of the worst the game has seen. Harsh language, but I use it only because of the gutt-wrenching effect the whole concept has on me.

What did creating a Noble line in Tuluk do for the world? Well, first and foremost it cut those playing in the already well-established Noble Houses in Allanak in half. Tearing away a good portion of the indepth political RP that Allanak was always known for.
Secondly it cut away those who wanted to play Noble guards and advisors and so forth in half.
And finally it makes Tuluk look as though they are trying to Mirror-Image Allanak, which should be the farthest thing in the world from what Tuluk should be doing.

In this player's humble opinion, Tuluk should represent a city inspired by a Barbarian... Like if Conan had a city, Muk Utep is a bad mutha but he's no Senator Palpatine...

Tektolnes and family? Definitely Palpatine material, Allanak even has a Senate and a fascinating political structure. There's no way Tuluk even touches Allanak's political might.

That's why I always wanted Tuluk to focus on its Templarate as the walking emblem of their Barbarian, Sorcerer-King... Who has the patience to humor Nobility in Tuluk? That whole class should be wiped away and a Caste system should be in place... Like Artists and Crafters and so forth and Merchants should be positions of honor having to do with what they actually contribute to the society.  And the Templarate would be in charge of raising up those who contributed the most, giving them accolades. Slaving and defense of the city should all be done by the Templarate in Tuluk, either farming out the Slaving to small mercenary groups or leading groups of Militiia into the wastes.

So what happens if you have Utep disolve the Nobility in Tuluk? Well, you get those interested in playing a Noble in an intense political atmosphere finally coming back to Allanak and contributing in ways that makes everyone's enjoyment that much greater.  You get House Oash with more than ONE noble at any given time... Letting them once again be the plotting and scheming House they should be. Tor has their gruff Warlords and Borsail their pansy Slaver-Lords.  It's a win-win all around.

In fact it helps make the line seperating north and south that much brighter when you know you can escape the world of Political scheming and backstabbing up in Tuluk... Where they're concerned with things like Poetry and Bardic feats, Art and lumberjacking... Where a simple commoner can go be that simple commoner without being under the oppressive boot-heel of a Noble.

Then Tuluk's Templarate could have their Advisors and soldiers and so forth be the focal point... Staying true to the essence of their Barbarian Sorcerer-King... and Allanak can have their serpentine politics, staying true to the essence of their scheming Sorcerer-King.

If that happened, I'd jump in line to play a Noble because there'd be far more involved and far more Nobles to interact with...The last Noble I played hung around with the ONE representative from the other two Houses and let me tell you how boring those Kruth games were... The Oashi was always cheating, the Tor was always threatening the Oashi and the Borsail was always drunk.

Then maybe Allanak's political life would blossom in a direction that made PC SENATORs who could actually hold SENATE meetings and so forth. Bringing in runners to deliver the decree's to the taverns. The Tavern's would always be abuzz with what someone overheard and the scheming would be epic.

Anyway, that's my long-winded opinion.

[Dracul]

...
In this player's humble opinion, Tuluk should represent a city inspired by a Barbarian... Like if Conan had a city, Muk Utep is a bad mutha but he's no Senator Palpatine...

Tektolnes and family? Definitely Palpatine material, Allanak even has a Senate and a fascinating political structure. There's no way Tuluk even touches Allanak's political might.

That's why I always wanted Tuluk to focus on its Templarate as the walking emblem of their Barbarian, Sorcerer-King... Who has the patience to humor Nobility in Tuluk? That whole class should be wiped away and a Caste system should be in place... Like Artists and Crafters and so forth and Merchants should be positions of honor having to do with what they actually contribute to the society.  And the Templarate would be in charge of raising up those who contributed the most, giving them accolades. Slaving and defense of the city should all be done by the Templarate in Tuluk, either farming out the Slaving to small mercenary groups or leading groups of Militiia into the wastes.
...

Then Tuluk's Templarate could have their Advisors and soldiers and so forth be the focal point... Staying true to the essence of their Barbarian Sorcerer-King... and Allanak can have their serpentine politics, staying true to the essence of their scheming Sorcerer-King.
...

DAMN...I really like that idea. And then on top of it, you have the ooc arguments (which I cut out of the quote) for boosting the nakki nobility. Wow, I would love to see that. Im mainly a southerner pc, so I'm biased anyways.

So...what if we killed all the northerner nobles? Hmm...if we killed them all...maybe....what do you say IMMZ?

[Nyard]

I would love to play a noble role, but there are a few reasons why I couldn't.  First of all, I'm still pretty new to the game.  Second of all, I don't think the staff would want me for a few reasons.  They haven't really had a chance to see what type of player I am.  Also, I was kind of stupid with my first two characters.  Also, I don't have as much available playing time as most other people may have.  

This will be especially true once school starts up again.  I don't have much time because, well, I'm a teenager, so I don't have my own house, so I can't just play whenever I want and be left alone.  My brother and I have to take turns (argh, I hate it!), so any time after I've been on for 30 minutes, my brother can say he wants on, and then I have to wait at least another 30 minutes to get back on..  But right now, I pretty much just play ARM, that's all I do, whenever I can, so I dunno.  Before I really consider it, though, I suppose I should get a bit more experience with this game.

[sacac]

Winrothal may have a problem with that idea.

I love the idea though Vox and makes sense.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Vox and have said the exact same thing many times.  The addition of Tuluki nobility diminished the pool of active nobles in Allanak at the price of an equally mediocre pool of nobles in Tuluk.

I really long for the days when there were tons of active nobles and 4 houses and a lot of interplay between them on all levels.

Honestly it doesn't have to be Allanak that gets the nobility, it could also be Tuluk, but shutting down the noble houses in one city or the other would be a joyous occasion, I think.

[Vanth]

For those of you who feel like you don't have enough experience or aren't ready yet, here's some suggestions to prepare yourself for a noble role:

--Understand the politics of the city you want to be a noble in.  You can do this by playing an aide or other underling for a period of time.
--Get some experience in "lesser" leader roles, like Byn Sergeant, Guard Officer, Senior Aide, of merchant house family member.
--Stick with these roles.  Keep your account notes good, or if you have bad ones, show that you've improved.

Overall, I'm really enjoying the feedback here, keep it coming.

[amoeba]

It's an interesting question, and interesting responses. I marked down "not my type of role", but I should probably qualify that.  

My response is based on what I have seen outwardly of the role, and guessed at in terms of it's inner workings.  With me it's not a problem of if I have the time or can I keep other people involved, but rather is it a role that would drive me to distraction.  My time is very consistant and predictable, and I rather enjoy enjoy keeping people busy, the more the better.  My few experiences with guarding proved to be less than enjoyable for me, and that's as close as I have gotten to observing the noble lifestyle.  If fact I would rather get my teeth drilled than repeat them.  

John stated some of my concern well in a post about boredom, he stated that when he was in a reactive state he was bored, it wasn't until he got  proactive that he enjoyed the role.  Getting stuck in a situation where you are exclusivly dependent upon underlings to do the actual work, while you direct the scenes may seem on the surface to be interesting, but it is the day to day execution of this that concerns me. How much of this is just waiting for something to happen?

In addition, when I play this game I live for the act of discovery.   Finding something new I haven't seen before, developing a character from the depths and advancing him above his expectations, learning something new about the world, or a new spell.  I also enjoy seeing these things happen in other people based on something I have done.  From the outside it seems that nobility is exclusivelly oriented to seeing who can get the upper hand, a fancy king of the hill if you will. My persective may be wrong, but from this vantage point thats what I see. Just not sure it's my cup of tea  

For at least the forseable future I'll stick to playing the bottom of the barrel trying to develop into the best bad guy/good guy they can be. Starting at the top doesn't seem all that interesting..

[Twilight]

I voted other.  

The reason for this is really my playing situation.  I have to be able to go afk immediately, and for sometimes hours at a time.  I'm never solely playing the game for long stretches of time, rather I'm multitasking.  I don't foresee any time when I'll be able to focus solely on the game for hours at end again.  Nevertheless, I still enjoy it, I just have to tailor my roles so that they work with these contraints, and don't impact others too much.

I'm operating at 25% or less of my potential.  Given all this, I would feel bad OOC'ly about slipping into a noble role, but not being able to give it the attention it deserves.  I already did that with one different kind of character thinking I could overcome the OOC constraints, but I couldn't really.

[waroth]

I have played several and enjoyed them all.  I see myself playing one again eventually if the urge strikes me to app for one.   Although I doubt it will be anytime soon as I do enjoy breaks between the heavy leadership roles.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Then maybe Allanak's political life would blossom in a direction that made PC SENATORs who could actually hold SENATE meetings and so forth. Bringing in runners to deliver the decree's to the taverns. The Tavern's would always be abuzz with what someone overheard and the scheming would be epic.

Sounds pretty cool, but it's never going to happen.  If ONE PC ever became a Senator, that would be a miracle.

Other than that, I agree that Tuluk needs to change drastically and finds it own flavor, and one that doesn't include nobility.  Right now all its flavor ever consisted of was a "They're... well... umm... subtle?  Gotta go!" from the immortals which mutated into a generation of bunny-hugging and lack of grittiness before eventually changing into a form that's basically Allanak II.

Fuck consistency.  Fuck believability.  Tuluk happened all wrong and should be rectified immediately.

[Kankman]

CRW spoke every word I'm too lazy to write down. The whole Golden Age yadda yadda. Even playing a commoner in a city with such bustling noble activity was more interesting. More spies. More opportunity for theft. I think it boils down to more condensed habitable space = more player interaction.

In recent time I have realized that I play a much more entertaining and plot-pushing underling than overling. Hence, I doubt I will play a noble in the near future. (READ: If I sent you an application for one TURN ME DOWN.)

[Selie]

I'm a newbie, so obviously I haven't applied for one and probably won't any time in the remotely near future. However, I think they're interesting and if I find that I enjoy leadership positions if I ever work up to trying one out later, I might consider it. If the imms don't decide I'm a moron and nuke my character first.

I haven't read any compelling arguments (IMHO) for closing the Tuluk nobility until I read this thread. Then I realized, hey, I don't know what to think when I think about Tuluk. Are they barbarians? More civilized? I don't know. They like poetry and art and civilized stuff, but they're supposedly barbarians (even though that seems contradictory to me). Unless someone's going to say they're like the Vikings, who liked poetry and stuff but also went around raiding and pillaging with big swords, I'm going to continue to be confused. I'l work it out eventually. But I do hope that the nobility becomes bustling and full sometime while I'm playing. It sounds like it's interesting no matter what level you're playing on.

[Kalden]

Right now all its flavor ever consisted of was a "They're... well... umm... subtle? Gotta go!" from the immortals which mutated into a generation of bunny-hugging and lack of grittiness before eventually changing into a form that's basically Allanak II.

I think the problem largely lies in the (mostly poor, I have to say) players up there who don't understand what subtlety means, and an overall atmosphere that doesn't encourage shady PCs in the right way. The way it's built doesn't help shady PCs, either. Hard to play a burglar up there, and the ruins isn't a city place...it's a wilderness place.

If you were going to eliminate nobility, the society would become...merit-based? Everyone vies to be picked as a new Templar? Or one noble family, which is the Templarate?

[EvilRoeSlade]

Going as far as to eliminate the largely unsuccessful Tuluki nobility would be going too far, in my opinion.

I was thinking more along the lines of a massive overhaul that virtualized the nobility and created ways to function without it.

[Vanth]

Rather than saying, "Doesn't work for me, get rid of it," I'd be interested in hearing constructive suggestions for how to make the northlands, with or without nobles, more interesting for those who seem to find it flawed.

Can anyone make any suggestions along that vein?

[Larrath]

This has been brought up many times before, but I'd like the Winrothol/Tenneshi conflict to simply exist in the Northlands.
As far as I could tell when I was playing in the North, in one of the Houses, it wasn't -really- there, or at least not out in the open.

Tuluk is subtle, but I don't think it's subtle to the level where simply making one clever remark about your worst enemy is enough to appease anyone.  Tuluk has far, far too much bunny-huggery.  People confuse being subtle with being nice - if a half-elf is going to sit with your subtle Tuluki fop, I think that smiling and making the tiniest comment (if any at all) about them isn't realistic.  Sitting somewhere else or making them want to leave is more like it.
Most importantly, the problem with Tuluk, I feel, is that you will absolutely never ever die there unless you actively seek death.  It's extremely easy to make a living off of hunting and forage and merchanting, resources are cheap and there are multiple shops where you can sell things.  Unless you go and spit on a noble, everyone will be your friend.  I don't like that.

I think I would like Tuluk to actually have real 'quality control' imposed by the Templarate.  If the Templars think that you damage the quality of the city, that is enough to make you disappear.  In order words, simply make Tuluk like a would-be Utopia of sorts where no social (more on a mental rather than physical level) misfits are accepted.
Tuluk simply lacks an edge.  Anything to do with real conflict is simply buried so deeply in there that one can play there for months and never know a thing - which leads to many people playing Tulukis, I believe, in a purely incorrect manner.


In a sentence, I'd like to see a group of 'artistic raiders' that could strike terror on hunters but be on the Templarate's good side because they plan everything meticulously and carefully sap their victims' hope by use of props (skeletons and tattered clothes and such) before they go in for the kill.
I do not want to be able to make any simple Tuluki crafter, make friends with two of the five hundred hunters in the city and proceed to be ridiculously rich without ever having to lift a finger.

[Gaare]

I'd be interested in hearing constructive suggestions for how to make the northlands, with or without nobles, more interesting for those who seem to find it flawed.

I believe northlands is good enough and has rich resource for anything at all.  I think players find it boring because well.. As players, most of us begin playing in Allanak and in veins we are 'naki. Tuluk is another world really.. Here are my humble suggestions, but as I said I do believe it is beatiful enough


- More deep and introductional documents for northern noble players could be benefical.

- Adding more active power points in the subtle game in northlands. Like Bardic Circles do not have much IG power which is not reflecting virtual level.

- Making criminal world of Tuluk more active ICly could make northlands more colorful.

- Increasing status of merchant houses in Tuluk, may create a larger PC population for elite kind of RP. (This makes sense since merchant houses are rather important then how they are in Allanak considering their efforts during rebirth of Tuluk)

- More rewarding and punishment system for nobles, house merchants and templars according to their success or failures. So the outcomes of subtle struggle could be seen by many. Such as more instant increase and descrease of stripends, giving or taking back men and women under direct order or big announcements of successes or praises.

For example, I would like to see all ranks of caste to speak or know about a noble or merchant after organizing a succesful bardic competition or capturing a southorn templarate or militia scum.

Shortly I would like to see prestige of elites of Tuluk to be increased or decreased by tasks they -recently- do. By this way, they would be more eager for making plots and earn power since rewards of those actions would come directly and the race of gaining prestige would increase. Also if those rewards would be in public sense (such as giving rights to successful people to make great shows for public crowd with assistance of templarate) I am quite sure there would be more struggle and rich rp instruments for any layer of the caste from slaves to templarate.

[moab]

Rather than saying, "Doesn't work for me, get rid of it," I'd be interested in hearing constructive suggestions for how to make the northlands, with or without nobles, more interesting for those who seem to find it flawed.

Can anyone make any suggestions along that vein?

In all honesty, a war that finally dooms the city and forces loyalist northerners into actually fighting to survive would be better.  The nobles (hiding in among the masses) would be the leaders of this survival as everyone learns to rough it.

Essentially turning Tuluk back into what it was pre-rebuild.

The stress and strife caused by occupying forces, struggle for survival and trying to hold to your own idea of morality and ethics when confronted with a stronger foe who doesn't share those beliefs would be _far_ more interesting than what exists in Tuluk now.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that which Tuluk was accused of before (compliancy and wooden role play) note: the previous was not a comment on any particular player at all is still in full effect, mostly due to the abundant resources and relative ease of obtaining many things.

But that's just me and it probably suggests just what you asked not to suggest.  Sorry!   :oops:

[Elgiva]

Rather than saying, "Doesn't work for me, get rid of it," I'd be interested in hearing constructive suggestions for how to make the northlands, with or without nobles, more interesting for those who seem to find it flawed.

Can anyone make any suggestions along that vein?

I like Tuluk and I like northern Noble Houses. Why? Because it is something different than Merchant Houses, than southern Noble Houses, than templarate. IMHO with two Noble Houses and Jihaens, things are balanced nicely. Indeed, would be cool to see Lirathans opened. But closing Northern Noble Houses would withdraw something unique from the game and I will hate to see that.

Just my 2 sids

[JollyGreenGiant]

Rather than saying, "Doesn't work for me, get rid of it," I'd be interested in hearing constructive suggestions for how to make the northlands, with or without nobles, more interesting for those who seem to find it flawed.

Can anyone make any suggestions along that vein?

In the grand tradition of Tuluk's earlier rebellion, what about a faction of dissidents who grow weary of the Gestapo stranglehold over Tuluk's citizenry and organize an underground movement to overthrow the present order of things.  How does this involve the nobility?  Smelling blood (and the potential for an increase in their own power), perhaps this faction gains subtle but definite support from elements within the noble Houses, perhaps to the point that even the noble Houses become secretly divided among those who support the rebels, and those who don't.

As I was writing this, the movie Equilibrium suddenly came to mind.  Perhaps even the odd Templar or two would end up secretly aiding the rebellion... or perhaps in the end, the movement would be wiped out.  Ideally, rebel leaders would be subtle enough to use people for their own goals without the people ever realizing they were accomplishing rebel purposes.

End results?  Who knows.  But it could be interesting.  Workable in game?  I don't know.  I'm just throwing out ideas.

[Revelations]

From what I've read so far, I think the main thing people want in Tuluk is more...conflict, for lack of a better word. I havn't yet been exposed to Tuluki politics and such, so I wouldn't really know how it is there currently, but I think lack of visible signs of trouble and intrigue would condition players to be comfortable and safe-feeling, ultimately making it boring. And, if conflict was to hit you in the face, you still wouldn't know because it's suppose to be -subtle- up there.

Now Allanak, you could could find in every corner if you wanted to look for it.. :roll:

But aside from that, I wouldn't mind playing in Tuluk because of the different flavor of playing style and culture that is there, but that is practically the only thing that would motivate me to try it out again. If it had more aspects of conflict, but with the visible Tuluki grace instead of cut-throat Naki style, then it would be better.

[Cuusardo]

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

[Anonymous]

I'd be interested in hearing constructive suggestions for how to make the northlands, with or without nobles, more interesting for those who seem to find it flawed.

Can anyone make any suggestions along that vein?

My favorite place in the entire game was the pre-rebellion Northlands during the Allanaki occupation.  It was a wonderful place, simply wonderful.  The politics were low key and at times nonexistent and most of the time you had little in the way of nobles or templars dominating the social scenes.  It was a great place for a change of pace and losing stamina to walk from the Sun King's Sanctuary to Freil's made it feel all the more rugged.  I'm stating this so people understand where I'm coming from, I don't have some grudge against Tuluk because I think Allanak is better.

Beyond closing northern nobles, if at least for an observational period, I think that Tuluk would be better served by focusing more on the tribal aspects and the hatred of Allanak than the whole Orwellian society thing.  Don't get me wrong, the subtly frightening aspects of Tuluk, people disappearing, etc, are awesome and would make it one of my favorite areas to play if we had a larger population, but we don't.  It's my impression that a lot of conflict is lost from the region because people are so busy trying to be subtle and then the person they are trying to have disappear gets killed by a tembo.  I'm not saying people shouldn't be subtle if they choose, but from my viewpoint the playerbase is too small and character turnover is too great for a large focus on subtle conflict to be a benefit.

Secondly I think Tuluk would be well-suited for some isolationism from southerners.  I'd like to see a less tolerant stance on southerners in Tuluk including those who work for merchant houses.  I think of Poland or France after the war and I can imagine it was a very hard place to be for a German person, regardless of whether or not they were working for some big multi-national corporation or were immigrants.  In a less technological society I imagine it would be an order of magnitude worse for those from the same city as the deposed conquerors.

Thirdly, I do think closing the northern nobility would help noble roles as a whole by concentrating them in a single area again.  Familiarity breeds contempt and the more peers someone has to roleplay with the chances for interaction/conflict/plots/creativity increases exponentially with each additional noble in a city.  I understand why people think that it would be harmful for Tuluk but in looking back at how the nobles were reintroduced to Tuluk (from my perspective it was from out of nowhere and voila, instant tiered society) I'm not sure that would be the case.  A city ruled by templars who are constantly being wooed by this merchant house or this rich trader seems like an interesting change from Allanak.  There could be divisions within either Templar order, similar to the Allanaki templars but allowed for player characters, for templars that watch over the city's trade, infrastructure and safety.  These divisions of power could be just one way that templars would find strife/politics between each other as a templar in charge of trade tries to thwart a rivals plan from the infrastructure division to make a road change that would lower the profitabilty of a given street corner, etc.  The best part about the notion of closing the northern nobility is that it doesn't need to be permanent.  If after a certain timeframe it's determined the playerbase is better served by having them open for play that can be done, obviously.

Lastly, I'd like to see Tuluk exert more control over it's surrounding environment and the relatively large cache of raw materials nearby.  Similar to how Allanak has control of all nearby crop-bearing fields, Tuluk should be taking control of the forests and the grasslands in some portion.  Making the best or most accessible areas the domain of one or another merchant house (at a premium, of course) I think would help put a little much needed squeeze on the independents and making playing for a merchant house, a necessity if the nobles are closed, more appealing not just for monetary sake but for the increased chances for outdoorsy gameplay, something I know I sorely miss when relegated to guard-bot duty.

[Revelations]

Nicely put, CRW.

It's my impression that a lot of conflict is lost from the region because people are so busy trying to be subtle and then the person they are trying to have disappear gets killed by a tembo. I'm not saying people shouldn't be subtle if they choose, but from my viewpoint the playerbase is too small and character turnover is too great for a large focus on subtle conflict to be a benefit.

I agree, from my experience there so far and from what I hear.

[Delirium]

Very nicely put, CRW.

I also like the idea of more "things to do" for guard or soldier-types.

Patrolling an area of land near the city and keeping it safe from intruders, poachers, hostiles, would be something directly PC-affected and have visible results that depend on PC influence, which I like.

p.s. Who says we can't do this under current circumstances, actually?

[sacac]

Wow CRW.

And besides, people go missing in Allanak too.

[Delirium]

Thinking about it, closing northern Nobility could also free up some Immortal time to focus more energy on specific clans or other areas, instead of being quite as spread out.

As far as territory beyond the city, I'd like to see tribals and halflings getting a little more hostile toward those city people coming and taking all their food and resources.  Problem with that is that it isn't as PC driven, unless we open some northern tribes and re-open halflings.

[Vox]

CRW and I are definitely on the same wavelength as far as this thread is concerned.  His most recent Post mirrors my sentiments exactly...

To add to it, however, in response to Vanth's request for more constructive feedback:

The Tuluk of old, before it was destroyed, was an awesome city. It was the first place I started playing the game in and I got to know the layout intimately. The Blue Vestric was my first tavern experience, and much like the Gaj was located only a few steps within the gates. It even had its own 'rinth-esque' area in the Crater itself. The coolest man in the North at that time was Khann of Salarr.. The immense, ebon-skinned man of doom. One of the greatest characters to have ever walked the game in my opinion.  A merchant by trade, this guy had his hands into everything and even started his own group of Mercenary fighters called the J'karr, or something.  He was a mover and a shaker... and at a time when there was no PC Templarate or Nobility in the North, this led to the Merchants creating the tiers of society.

We made a trip to Allanak once in the Desert Rose and man was the tension high... People were frightened of the Black City and all it represented, Templars and Nobles scheming all over, back-alley deals, etc. There were some that were too frightened to get off the wagon.

Now it seems as though people travel to and from the respective cities as though they were simply sight-seeing, travelers with bone-rimmed polaroid cameras slung around their necks and flower-patterened sandcloth shorts on. "Ooh, look honey, SLAVES!"

Then Tuluk was destroyed and a new dynamic was created... For those that actually RPed in Tuluk before it was destroyed the loss was tangible. It meant something that cataclysm had obliterated the entire city. And Playerbase focus shifted dramatically to Allanak. Those who wanted to play in the North played much like CRW mentioned, rugged... The Rebellion was awesome and the conflict between the struggling Rebellion and the southern invaders was intense.  Good times.  Especially in Allanak where there were Nobles and Templars galore.

But there was a stark difference between the two regions and there was stark contrast.

Then Tuluk freed itself and rebuilt. And as though someone had waved a magick wand TWO Noble houses appear out of NOWHERE with histories and a whole way of calling people Faithful and Chosen that never existed previous. BLAM! And my apologies to the Imm/Imms in charge of the first redesign but WOW... It was simply huge and the rooms were simply copied and pasted in large amounts with exactly the same descriptions. It took literally HOURS to get around and if you were trying to meet someone at a particular gate, it'd be literally the next day when you got there.  Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure the intention was good.. But the execution of the idea was simply impractical. Take the old layout of New Tuluk to an engineer and they'd fall over laughing. Thankfully, having heard the many complaints from the playerbase the roads were shortened somewhat and getting around became slightly easier.  But the layout of the city, except for Freil's rest is still awkward. One doesn't get the impression that it sprung up around the Ivory Tower in any sort of intuitive way, and there's little to no seen influence from the last existence of Tuluk...

Alright, so here we are.. The New Tuluk with the slightly shortened roads and two Noble Houses. Tenneshi seems to be a mirror of Tor and Winrothol a mirror of Borsail. Up springs 2 more taverns in addition to the Sanctuary and the Freil's Rest one and it seems the whole concept is attempting to duplicate Allanak. Sure there's subtle differences and there's more dramatic differences but the essence remains the same. Basically it's Allanak with more bards and lumberjacks instead of obsidian miners... The real difference, for some reason the denizens of Tuluk seem to be pacified, and as many have called them 'tree-hugging fluffy bunny lovers.' Maybe that's because of this whole 'subtle' thing.. Which in my impression is an excuse for inactivity. Where's the conflict? Shh, it's subtle you'll wake it up.

Ok, so that's the jist of where I'm coming from and these are my suggestions on helping the situation be more fun for everyone involved:

1) Close down the Northern Noble Houses to players and re-open Fale in Allanak.
2) Take on more Templars in the North and if the Lirathan order is just too powerful make a mid-tier between Red and White, perhaps a special order created by Utep. Much like Allanak has several Ministries with it's Templarate, deliniate responsibility over the city to the Templars.  Slaving, defense, city maintenance and commerce, etc. Back in the day the biggest slave population were Legionairres, where did they go?
3) Shift the Northern focus to honor Merchants and forester/gatherers, those contributing to the city should be rewarded with status and you develop a natural tier that any who wish to contribute can join and climb. This whole 'bunny-hugging' quality can be put to the task as people in the North feel like a community helping each other survive, while at the same time attempting to climb to levels of status in the community.
4) Stoke the flames of conflict between North and South once more, this uneasy peace business is simply a lack of overt conflict that leaves people in a grey area of how to act. The different accented peoples should despise each other blindly and constantly. Old Tuluk used to have some of the finest Elementalist Temples, now because of the cataclysm magickers are killed on sight. Allanak is full of grand Elementalist temples and gemmed magickers, if there needs to be a reason to hate Allanak enough to want it destroyed, there's a big one.

Finally, if you've unfortunately ruled out the idea of closing down the Northern Noble Houses then I would simply advise focusing on the Tribal culture of Tuluk. It's king is a Barbarian who united the tribes of Gol-Krathu, even in the last conflict the Mutants came to the aide of Tuluk.. More tribals. There's a flourishing Tribal Market... That's why the refined politics seems out of place to me, it's so Southern in my eyes. The North is Tribes and artisans, hunter/gatherers and bards. Simple people who just want to survive and contribute to their society.  That creates a stark difference between North and South.  The south is like the Romans and the North like the Germanic tribes of old... maybe not so barbaric but they should still have a Barbaric feel.

Anyway, that's my EXTREMELY long-winded opinion. Thanks to those who read the whole thing and didn't skim. :shock:

[Elgiva]

Tenneshi seems to be a mirror of Tor...

Umm... that is simply wrong.

Anyway... closing Noble Houses would hurt current North/South tension. If you close Noble Houses, Southerns will have only northern templars to plot against, which is not enough.

Also, having three Noble houses and templarate in South and only templarate in North will make things unbalanced. Merchants are... merchants, they usually have not much reason to be involved in North/South fights.

[Dracul]

I like the idea alot.

And I'm working for it ICly.

[Revelations]

Anyway... closing Noble Houses would hurt current North/South tension. If you close Noble Houses, Southerns will have only northern templars to plot against, which is not enough.

Also, having three Noble houses and templarate in South and only templarate in North will make things unbalanced. Merchants are... merchants, they usually have not much reason to be involved in North/South fights.

Well, after the beautifully written posts by Vox and CRW, to tell the truth, it'll take abit more than that to change my opinion... :wink:

Now, why would southern nobility need to contend with northern nobility when they are each on the other side of the Known World? If any influence is to cross the desert and plains to Allanak, it'll have to be some major actions, and those can be perfectly exectuted by the Tuluki templarate.

And how would things be unbalanced? You didn't quite explain that part. Vox and CRW just gave some great reasons why it would and could be balanced. And if a merchant house a stronger hold in the north, why would they not be involved in north/south fights? If a major benefactor of their wares was to be elliminated, would they not do what they can to give some aid?

[sacac]

Anyway... closing Noble Houses would hurt current North/South tension. If you close Noble Houses, Southerns will have only northern templars to plot against, which is not enough.

Also, having three Noble houses and templarate in South and only templarate in North will make things unbalanced. Merchants are... merchants, they usually have not much reason to be involved in North/South fights.

Whats wrong with only targetting northern Templars? They have an easy life. Always plotting, and never getting plotted.

Merchants have tons of reasons to get the two to fight.
If salarr get the two to fight, then they sell weapons and armor to both sides.
Kurac can sell spice and wagons to both sides.
Kadius can sell... stuff too.

[Krath]

I originally was against this idea...But I am now in favor of everything both Vox and CRW
wrote.

[Elgiva]

Anyway... closing Noble Houses would hurt current North/South tension. If you close Noble Houses, Southerns will have only northern templars to plot against, which is not enough.

Also, having three Noble houses and templarate in South and only templarate in North will make things unbalanced. Merchants are... merchants, they usually have not much reason to be involved in North/South fights.

Whats wrong with only targetting northern Templars? They have an easy life. Always plotting, and never getting plotted.

Merchants have tons of reasons to get the two to fight.
If salarr get the two to fight, then they sell weapons and armor to both sides.
Kurac can sell spice and wagons to both sides.
Kadius can sell... stuff too.

Merchants wants two sides to fight. Merchants do not want to be involved in that fight themselves. If we have three noble houses plus templarate in South and -only- templarate open in north... South will have more PC force againt North. And however there are VNPCs all around, VNPCs are not starting evil plots, or at least not often. The battle would be like: BorsailxJihaen, TorxJihaen, FalexJihaen, SouthernTemplaratexJihaen...  Merchants will, of course, sell much more weapons/armor/anything in south. Southern leaders will hire more PCs simply because there will be more Houses... does that not seem to be disbalanced?

PS. Not mentioning there are players who enjoy playing in Northern Noble Houses exactly because it is somewhat unique experience. Northern Noble Houses -are- different than Southern.

[Armaddict]

Indeed, after reading Vox's and...that other long post, I'm swayed.  I think it'd be cool.

My -largest- problems with Tuluk were both mentioned:

1.  Subtlety - This is drastically overplayed, to the point where -everyone- is playing the exact same character, but with different personalities.  No matter what the personality, though, you can pretty much assume what's going to happen.  While it does keep you somewhat on edge with who's your friend who isn't...the repetitiveness of the idea just gets old.

2.  Mirroring Allanak - These are supposed to be completely different cultures, completely different leaders, completely different people, completely different cities.  Why is everything so close to the -same-?!  Awhile back, a document was released describing different fighting styles of the north and south...as far as I've seen, even this is rarely followed, because people make their characters and see a badass weapon, and take that even though it would be different from the fighting style their people generally favor.  There are always exceptions.  When everyone's an exception, it makes the reality of how it should be go away.  (Not to say this is the exact line of thought, just a quick way to put what happens out there )

    I favor the ideas already presented noting the way Tuluk was founded, and still leans towards but without any depth.  It's a tribal place in the middle of a location filled with vast resources.  This place should be -so- much different than Allanak.  Heh.

Kudos on some of these ideas.  In my opinion, they rock.

[sacac]

We wont know until we try.

[Armaddict]

Merchants wants two sides to fight. Merchants do not want to be involved in that fight themselves. If we have three noble houses plus templarate in South and -only- templarate open in north... South will have more PC force againt North.

I would think Merchants would also try to keep as many different customers as possible, to keep demand high.   And if there's -only- templarate in the north, but no noble houses...how does this hurt?  Particularly when people are mentioning having more templars in that northern templarate, in comparison with the south.  (It could be the other thread, not sure.)

It's just a different social structure, there's no -huge- downside to not having noble houses in a society.  Templars can expand into different jobs, and other groups can fill niches that need to be filled in the city.  Then Tuluk would actually be unique, and so would Allanak, rather than this mumbo jumbo about 'balance' in the IC world.  I don't think balance, keeping the north and south fair...is really an issue.  I could be wrong, but the idea of ooc'ly keeping things relatively the same for equality reasons is kind of out of place in this world we're trying to make as believable as possible.

[jstorrie]

To a very large degree the problem with the northern nobility is that fewer people play up north. Shooing the players already up north down south won't fix that; is the situation with the southern nobility so dire that the play there needs propping up?

I liked northern politics the last time I was involved in it, and I in fact plan on getting back in it soon. I certainly wouldn't like to see the northlands nobility get shut down.

[Anael]

Tenneshi seems to be a mirror of Tor...

May I ask what makes you feel that way?

First, I have to say I am one of 'those' northlandish players. Blame the fact my PCs live long. Therefore, at first, I didn't like the idea of closing Noble Houses. I am a bit ambivalent right now, the idea of only the templarate holding the power might be interesting, but I think there'd need to be a much deeper/more transparent differentiation of different branches of the templarate.

Anyway, people are talking a lot about changing the north, but have you ever though of doing exactly the same thing, with Allanak instead?

Now, before all of you (virtually) stone me to a (virtual) death, let me explain (what follows are the thoughts based on my limited knowledge, and I am aware of that):

In another thread on this subject, ERS made a point that there's really no big difference between northern and southern nobles. Perhaps it is so (I don't know. I never played in 'nak, but I think I read enough and talked with the helpers enough to be able to say something. The next character I am planning will be south and I wanted to be prepared), but if they are really just the same... then I really mean my reply in that thread: there's something wrong with southern nobles and they should go and read the gritness/harshness thread, and their local documents a couple of times to realize that.

From OOC, player's point of view, nobles of Northern concept is far more useful for roleplay. They meet with the Commoners all the time (they don't have a separate tavern after all). They work with them, they are supposed to pay artists (thus allowing Bards of the Circles a steady income), to hire people, to be busy in public a lot. Yes, a southern noble player could play around this by claiming his PC to be a 'people person' but that's really just a lame excuse. Yes, it would be bad to think that Northern Nobles really care about Commoners. Hell, they're one different caste (yes, one thing even players in the North often miss). Commoners are disposable tools for nobles, and they most likely realize that - it's their social role. The further we're getting from the Rebellion, the deeper (and more allanak-ish) this difference will be. And that's good. There is some kind of a truce between Nobles and Commoners, though. They are supposed to, and they actually -do- work together. An independant can be very easily hired by a noble for a one-time, menial task, because there is no problem for the independant to get in touch with a noble. You say that it's just the same with Allanak? Then there's something wrong.

IMHO, Tuluki nobles, when played properly, can be much more useful for players, OOCly, than Allanak nobles... when played properly.

And no, the 'subtlety' of Tuluk doesn't have to produce same types of PCs. From a northland player's point of view, that's not the case at all. I see many different characters, with very different personalities. The fun part is that they often -try- to be subtle. Some of them fail, some don't. And some don't bother at all.

Bring the flames on.  

[sacac]

The northern nobles act like rich commoners and the southern nobles are noble and smite the evil poor commoner.

[Elgiva]

The northern nobles act like rich commoners and the southern nobles are noble and smite the evil poor commoner.

-IF- current northern nobles act like nothing more than rich commoners, something is wrong with Tuluk.

[sacac]

How about this.

We do 6 months with only allanak nobility and 6 months with Tuluk Nobility?

[Gaare]

The northern nobles act like rich commoners and the southern nobles are noble and smite the evil poor commoner.

This is an excellent point.

That's really how many of us RP. We speak about tribal culture of Tuluk with strict caste system, and then we RP like Faithfuls and Chosens are like simply rich born citizens.  

In fact, I do understand through history western societies are mostly based on giving praise to direct show of power, IMO that's not the case in every community. Think dervishs of Persia and middle Anatolia, or monks of Tibet.. Those people were highly respected and have power to manipulate and lead countries, but they were kind and silent almost always. So nobles or elites of a given society do not have to smite the evil poor commoner (actually Tuluki nobles do that but not in front of a crowd) to show their power. Chosens and Faithfuls are simply powerful and better then commoners and most of Tuluk commoners -know- it.

Edit: Smoothing.

[Revelations]

I am a bit ambivalent right now, the idea of only the templarate holding the power might be interesting, but I think there'd need to be a much deeper/more transparent differentiation of different branches of the templarate.

I agree in some regards. If the lirathan order was to be implemented again, and with two or three templars for each order, I think there would be enough scheming between the templarate to still have the political edge in Tuluk. IMO, that alone is still not enough to make a strong arguement for getting rid of the PC nobility in Tuluk, but when the Merchant Houses are brought into the picture, things become just a little more interesting. They could fill some of the roles that PC nobilty have - and give most of the rest to the templarate - as they vie for influence with templars and with the populace. Merchants would need to make the citizen happy, as well as the templarate, and would act sorta of like middle ground, almost like how Allanaki nobility between the Highlord/templarate and commoners but without the nobles' pomp and status. It would still bring normal PCs things to do, but would also raise the expectations that northern merchants would have to meet.

The only problem that I see with this is that it wouldn't solve the problem of concentrating nobles in the south, since the new role that merchants could play would attract some of the players of nobles. Unless there are more people willing to play merchants than nobles, it wouldn't really solve much, but that's just me speculating.

From OOC, player's point of view, nobles of Northern concept is far more useful for roleplay. They meet with the Commoners all the time (they don't have a separate tavern after all). They work with them, they are supposed to pay artists (thus allowing Bards of the Circles a steady income), to hire people, to be busy in public a lot. Yes, a southern noble player could play around this by claiming his PC to be a 'people person' but that's really just a lame excuse. Yes, it would be bad to think that Northern Nobles really care about Commoners. Hell, they're one different caste (yes, one thing even players in the North often miss). Commoners are disposable tools for nobles, and they most likely realize that - it's their social role. The further we're getting from the Rebellion, the deeper (and more allanak-ish) this difference will be. And that's good. There is some kind of a truce between Nobles and Commoners, though. They are supposed to, and they actually -do- work together. An independant can be very easily hired by a noble for a one-time, menial task, because there is no problem for the independant to get in touch with a noble. You say that it's just the same with Allanak? Then there's something wrong.

The new role that merchants could play would fill this gap that you imply northern nobles have, if not slightly better in some ways. And there -is- a difference between Nakki nobles and Tuluki, well at least there should be. The big thing with Nakki nobles currently, from how I see it, is that they set themselves far apart from the commoners because they always have been. Tuluki nobles, because of the Nakki occupation, needed to work with and amidst commoners, sorta of blurring the lines, which is why northern nobles would likely act as you said - more "people person"ish.

IMHO, Tuluki nobles, when played properly, can be much more useful for players, OOCly, than Allanak nobles... when played properly.

Not necessarily true. Although there is a large gap between Allanaki nobility and the commoners (which I, being the Nakki loyalist that I am, think Zalanthas needs more than the blurred outlook that northern nobles have with their citizens) PC nakki nobles still need the participation of commoners for their image. As the Allanaki nobility docs state, the commoners feel alot better trusting nobles than the mysterious and feared templarate, which is one of the main reasons the nobility of Allanak exist. So, nakki nobles don't exclude the normal PC populace entirely, and likely interacts with them almost as much as a Tuluki noble would, in an OOC standpoint.

And, if noble players -were- to be played correctly, then their interaction with commoners would not be as frivolous as you say. To a noble, commoners are practically mere items to them, it is only more highly emphasized in Allanak than in Tuluk for reasons stated above. IMO, by seeing a more general presence of nobles in public, the PCs fear/respect of them dwindles OOCly due to constant exposure, as with alot of things such as magick. By keeping them mostly out of sight from public view as in Nak, nobles garner more of the feelings that players -should- have of them.

Whew, I hope you're still following me.  :wink:

[Vox]

Regarding Tenneshi mirroring House Tor... Yeah I seem to recall back when the House first emerged there was some talk of them contributing significantly to the defense of Tuluk... But after reading the break down of Nobility on the General Information page... I stand corrected.

But after perusing the description of the duties of these 'Noble' Houses:
1) Tenneshi employs artisans and craftsmen, and controls water.
2) Winrothol provides trained warrior-slaves to the Legion

So Winrothol is a combination of Borsail and Tor... and Tenneshi, well they seem like the Custodians of the city. Just like Jal... who even created the sewer system beneath Allanak.

In short... Winrothol=Borsail/Tor
Tenneshi=Jal

Laeris put alot of work into the whole subject and for that he gets my respect, but I don't think the turkey is done... It needs to bake a bit more and needs to be basted lovingly.(don't we all  :mrgreen:  )

I don't think anyone is suggesting 'scrap it all', we're just suggesting a redistribution of responsibility for the purpose of a better RP experience all around.

[Jherlen]

Thirdly, I do think closing the northern nobility would help noble roles as a whole by concentrating them in a single area again.  Familiarity breeds contempt and the more peers someone has to roleplay with the chances for interaction/conflict/plots/creativity increases exponentially with each additional noble in a city.  I understand why people think that it would be harmful for Tuluk but in looking back at how the nobles were reintroduced to Tuluk (from my perspective it was from out of nowhere and voila, instant tiered society) I'm not sure that would be the case.  A city ruled by templars who are constantly being wooed by this merchant house or this rich trader seems like an interesting change from Allanak.  There could be divisions within either Templar order, similar to the Allanaki templars but allowed for player characters, for templars that watch over the city's trade, infrastructure and safety.  These divisions of power could be just one way that templars would find strife/politics between each other as a templar in charge of trade tries to thwart a rivals plan from the infrastructure division to make a road change that would lower the profitabilty of a given street corner, etc.  The best part about the notion of closing the northern nobility is that it doesn't need to be permanent.  If after a certain timeframe it's determined the playerbase is better served by having them open for play that can be done, obviously.

Lastly, I'd like to see Tuluk exert more control over it's surrounding environment and the relatively large cache of raw materials nearby.  Similar to how Allanak has control of all nearby crop-bearing fields, Tuluk should be taking control of the forests and the grasslands in some portion.  Making the best or most accessible areas the domain of one or another merchant house (at a premium, of course) I think would help put a little much needed squeeze on the independents and making playing for a merchant house, a necessity if the nobles are closed, more appealing not just for monetary sake but for the increased chances for outdoorsy gameplay, something I know I sorely miss when relegated to guard-bot duty.

Amazingly well said.

I still disagree with the logic that southern houses will have no one to fight against without the presence of Winrothol and Tenneshi. How much direct plotting has gone on between northern and southern noble houses recently? (Okay, okay, find out IC, you don't have to say it.) But that aside, Borsail and Oash and Tor (and the six other virtual nakki houses) are hardly all buddy buddy with each other. I think we could find PLENTY for these houses to fight over amongst themselves with. And since Allanaki politics don't have to be 'subtle', these plots would be farther out in the open and do their part to suck more unaffiliated PCs in, willingly or otherwise.

If we're really worried about the lack of people in Tuluk being able to be recruited into clans, lets make it so that more PCs in Tuluk will want to join up with who's there. A Lirathan order, and several more Jihaen templars, along with Legion sergeants, would help this. All four merchant Houses could stand to be represented more in the north than they are now, this could help recruiting as well. Even the Byn or other smaller mercenary groups might work. Tuluk is a "tribal" society, everyone says, so it strikes me that most people would want to be able to claim membership to a tribe/House/clan in order to get by. The society could frown down on those who weren't a part of anything bigger than just themself.

I'd like to really see how this goes. An experiment doesn't seem like it could hurt. If it does, we can always go back to the way things are now.

Another point to make regarding low numbers in nobles and clans - everyone can agree bringing more players to the game is good and will help that. Go vote!

[Tamarin]

I played a bastard noble once.  It was fun enough, I suppose, but I probably wouldn't do it again.  I've just grown out of imm-sponsored roles.

[Delirium]

The Lirathan Order is a very tough role, and that might be part of the reason why it was pulled.  A look at making it a little more approachable might be in order, but I won't go into further detail here.

[purity]

There is still one Lirathan PC left.  I'd like to see the Order reopened to more once some of the difficulties are worked out.

[Angela Christine]

Leadership positions make me cringe. I hate feeling like I HAVE TO LOG ON, or else I'm a BAD LEADER who is RUINING OTHER PLAYERS ENJOYMENT and will likely see a dozen HOW TO ROLEPLAY A LEADER posts on the GDB due to my ineptitude.
Whether I'm a Byn Sergeant or a noble, I'd rather lead a pack of rabid halflings than other players. I don't want Arm to feel like a responsibility. I have enough of that in real life.

Exactly.  I would only want to be a noble, templar or sargeant in a clan that had at least 2 or 3 other nobles/templar/sargeants at the same time.  I don't want a whole clan (plus everyone that wants to deal with a "leader" of that clan) waiting for me, watching me, judging me.  If I am the only one, or even one of two, I feel responsible for a lot of stuff that shouldn't be my character's problem, or any of thier business.

Like, suppose I was playing a Lirathan Templar.  The only Lirathan Templar.  And suppose further that there weren't any Jihaen templars around either.  I find out that the Legion PCs haven't been paid in a while.  This is so NOT my character's problem, Legionaires are not in her chain of command.  But I'm the only PC Templar . . . so the legion sort of is my responsibility.  Should I pay them?  I can certainly afford to, but it isn't something my PC should be doing.  Reporting it IC to my superiors would be pointless, it isn't their problem either.  Try to report it to a Jihaen or high-ranking legion NPC?  I'm not even sure if it is an IC problem or an OOC problem, there ought to be a paymaster or someone making sure the legions get paid, and probably the NPC legions are getting paid, so it probably isn't an IC situation where the payroll is going missing.  Argh!  Little situations like that pop up all the time for leader characters.  


I like it better when there are several people in leadership positions.  I've been in the Byn when there are 3 or 4 PC Sargeants/Lts, and it was great.  You have one Sergeant that you are primarly responsible to, and each sergeant has a squad of grunts that he is primarily responsible for, but most of the load is shared.  If the Sergeant of the Obsidian Wrists gets a contract she will try to take all of her own squad, but the if the Sand Jozhal's Sarge isn't around, she will probably take them along too.  If you have several nobles in a house one might take primary responsiblility for the military PC while another takes primary responibility for the servants, and the other noble (or two) might not be responsible for any PCs except her personal aides that she hired herself so she can devote herself to socializing and plotting, but any of the three can attempt to get any other PC in the clan involved in plots (it also gives lower ranking PCs in the clan the oportunity to play their "bosses" against one another).

Being the only "leader" in a clan sucks.  You, or your PC, may not have good leadership skills, the character may not have been designed as a leader.  Some nobles are just dilettantes, clothes horses, black sheep, bookish scholarls, bon vivants, spoiled rich kids, etc., they are not all ambitious senator wannabes or effective middle-mangement -- especially when young.  When there is just one leader that leader has to be effective, or the clan dies.  It is too restrictive, too stressful.


Angela Christine

[Ghost]

Leadership positions make me cringe. I hate feeling like I HAVE TO LOG ON, or else I'm a BAD LEADER who is RUINING OTHER PLAYERS ENJOYMENT and will likely see a dozen HOW TO ROLEPLAY A LEADER posts on the GDB due to my ineptitude.
Whether I'm a Byn Sergeant or a noble, I'd rather lead a pack of rabid halflings than other players. I don't want Arm to feel like a responsibility. I have enough of that in real life.

I am suffering this.  Badly.

[Delirium]

Leadership positions make me cringe. I hate feeling like I HAVE TO LOG ON, or else I'm a BAD LEADER who is RUINING OTHER PLAYERS ENJOYMENT and will likely see a dozen HOW TO ROLEPLAY A LEADER posts on the GDB due to my ineptitude.
Whether I'm a Byn Sergeant or a noble, I'd rather lead a pack of rabid halflings than other players. I don't want Arm to feel like a responsibility. I have enough of that in real life.

I am suffering this.  Badly.

Probably all leaders do at some point in time.

The best thing to do is keep a firm grasp on your character.  Don't let them become nothing but their job.  The other best thing to do is stay in close contact with your clan immortals and let them know if things are becoming too much.  The third thing to do is delegate.  Delegate, delegate, delegate.  Even if you're a control freak you have to learn to let others do at least some of your work for you.  No one person can do everything.  While they all answer to you, you can give them some of your grunt work, and as a side effect, they have more to keep them busy, and you get a bit of a load off your shoulders.  Works for everybody.

[Pantoufle]

Not all nobles are leaders.  While some may think this sentiment is going against the grain, consider that of the handful of nobles I've played, not one of them was ever in a position of authority (short of being able to hire personal aides, which doesn't make you a leader of people.)  To add to this, of the noble PCs I've encountered in my decade+ of playing this MUD, I've only encountered a few nobles who were assigned the role of "leader".  Being expected to motivate and move plotlines is a separate role from leadership.  A rag-clad beggar can move plotlines and motivate people to action just as well as a red-robed templar can.

[Revelations]

So what really is expected of a noble that makes the role feel like the player has to play the "leader"? At least that's what seems to be the popular sentiment.

[Bestatte]

In my observation as a non-leader player:

A noble player 'must' be able to come up with and drive plotlines. A non-noble player 'may' come up with an drive plotlines, and only "leadership" non-noble players are urged to do so (such as sergeants of military units/clans, senior aids/assistants, etc).

While one group is urged, encouraged, and even begged to guide others through accomplishing "things to do," it is the noble and templar who is looked to most, and ends up taking the brunt of the responsibility.

I don't say this as some official anything I've read in the docs, that the staff expects ALL noble players to run things. But rather, it is the game itself that is geared toward that, and the expectation, whether actual or merely perceived, exists.

[Jherlen]

So what really is expected of a noble that makes the role feel like the player has to play the "leader"? At least that's what seems to be the popular sentiment.

I've never played a noble, but here's my observation:

Noble roles have a lot of perks over other commoner roles in the game. The staff is setting you up with a character who is going to be respected, admired, feared, and privledged in whichever society they're in, simply because of their blood. Noble characters get set up with hefty allowances, npc guards, and use of their own estates, among other things. However, the staff isn't giving a noble's player all of this just to be nice. They expect the nobles to use their influence and money, engage/employ other players around them, rather than just sitting around acting important and using their stipend to buy every piece of clothing in the game. In that sense a noble could be considered a 'leader' role in OOC terms, because they're responsible by virtue of their IC influence and money to support their aides/spies/guards/etc and give them stuff to do.

[Pantoufle]

Jherlen pretty much sums up what I was trying to say.  

[spawnloser]

"With great power comes great responsibility."

Learn your lessons from Spiderman.  I'm done.

[jmordetsky]

..and other times it's like the advertisement was written in Esperanto because no one reacts to it.  

First off....Nice reference. I haven't heard that word since college.

Second: This is way out of line with the other posts on nobility. My issue isn't with the spread by rather with the mechanics. For me even if there was 50 noble PC in Allanak, the political banter without consequence or tangibles would still fizz out after a few days.

My personal issue with playing nobility, is that you have all this power to do all of these things, but you really have nothing tangible you have to accomplish.  As a result you end up doing the same stuff, paying spies gathering info, buying shit, paying people off. And at the same time there are very strict lines you cannot cross concerning intra-house interactions, which along with your OOC responsibilities can very, very restrictive.

When I was playing, I felt my characters aspirations for power and money were bascially in the hands of the Imms. I would position the character in various ways politcally which I felt would gain him the most favour with other houses and his superiors in hopes that this would win him more position in the organization he was in. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't but it becomes to much of a subjective exercise. I feel that a nobles path to glory and status should be much more cut and dry.

This touches on what Vox, CRW and ERS have said, perhaps with more PC nobles your politcal base is much more real as it's either supported or not by actual PCs rather then virtually decided by the Imms.

The other thing is that, Nobles should have real responsibilities. Someone needs to look after Borsail's slaving interests, someone needs to be watching Oash's positions, Fale, etc. There are no tangibles for nobles. It's all politics...Which for me, get old...very quickly.

For example, if I play an indy hunter/mugger/miner, I'm responsible for getting myself food, water etc etc and my general focus is on staying alive. These are the things of my daily life that keep me busy durring lulls in plots. It keeps things interesting, and if a plot comes my way, well then cool. But the game remains fun, and I stay busy in the absence of plots.

However, when I play a noble or noble-like (I think this goes for the templarate and house leaders as well) there are no tangibles. Plots do surface, and there are things to investigate, but my feelings on these is that they are sporadic, and fairly slow moving, way to slow moving for my tastes. And they need to be, so that they can mature and involve alot of people,  but what it leads to is a serious lack of "wow" moments in the noble-likes life span (imho of course).

I would really like to see more weekly tangibles inflicted on leadership characters. For example, I think (barring a few minor issues), that Naiona's slavers post is a good step in this direction. If slavers had quotas or incentives to fill quotas, Nobles of slaving houses could be responsible for the motivation and cooridination of these operations, and would be held accountable for a dip in slave income, or would optionally have to earn their stipend by playing a role in this.

Another example would be force merchant house leaders to be more responsible for the daily operation of trade, importing obsidian coordianting wagon movement, etc etc.  You could also impose strategic acquisitions on War houses like Tor. Forcing them to provide support to keep caravans safe, raiders away etc.

I posted something concerning day to day minutia and tasks a while ago that I felt would make these roles more interesting, to more of the player base, but from the looks of the voting it may not be needed. *shrug* I guess to each their own.

EDIT: It might be an interesting exercise to look at the overlap of the various Noble houses, Merchants houses etc to determine where the most likely areas of conflict concerning control of the various interests in the city would be. And force some more competition for these areas.

One of the cooler things I saw while playing a noble, was one noble house creatively using the area it controlled to edge in on another noble houses territory. Was brilliant, but never matured, because really (i suspect) it was an Imm sponsored plot rather then a player's idea to make a play on tangibles.

Though I really don't know, something like this is a radically different way of looking at the world.

For example: What if Kurac decided it was going to start producing swords to sell to Tuluk? It would need to obtain obsidian from Allanank, it would need to get it to a production facility in Luirs, and then it would need to ship the swords to Tuluk under Salarr's nose. Maybe Salarr then tries to hire raiders to intecept the shipment, or tries to bully kurac politcally to get them to stop.

These are all things I beleive should be in player hands. It's much to static a world to make for interesting leadership positions as of now. I personally after my last foray into it am stearing well clear of them.

[Krath]

I agree with him 100%

[Cenghiz]

Just applied for my first noble. I'm waiting for the answers.. so..
Thanks to everyone for their opinions.. Now I feel clearer about my -hopefully- future role.

[Moofassa]

Nobles are rewarding, if you're willing to put in the work.

[Maybe42or54]

And you can't twink out your fighting skills with the common guards.
You have to twink them out with fellow nobles. Just hope to tek that one that fights comes around.