Disarm spam...

[X-D]

Faglore, this one instance (and I've seen more) That warrior was COMPLETLY unable to hit an armed halfling warrior one on one, this is not a "master" warrior by any sense of the word, nor are 99% of the chars that can do such things, they just twink on code knowing that disarm is an easy and painless skill to work up and that an unarmed char of any class, no matter how skilled they are is an easy target.


Now, to your example..Dude, STOP WATCHING KILL BILL.

No joke man, the idea of a single human being with a pair of swords being able to beat FOUR even slightly trained healthy humans is beyond silly, I'd have to go to look up words strong enough for the idea, and we are not even talking about a human taking on four humans.

Do we want it to be "real" we want it to be with enough "realism" To not throw you out of the fantasy with a jolt and you sit back and go WTF was that shit?! People talk about "It's a WARRIOR, deal with it." then turn around and compare it to backstab or archery. Fine, lets do that.

Oh, wait, you really can't because backstab, though a very powerful skill is VERY hard to raise and because staff watches over people who do try to raise it and people shout TWINK any time anybody gets even good enough to do 20hp damage with it. Archery takes huge sums of money and patience to raise to the level of one arrow one kill possibility and is still easily defended against..hell, a warrior can parry the arrows!

[Forest Junkie]

I'm riding piggyback on every single one of X-D's posts. Because he is uber and all that shit.

Agree 100%

[Anonymous]

Sorry but if it weren't for disarm...any other guild that's even somewhat combat oriented would be able to stand up to a warrior of equal days..it's the warrior's disarm skill which balances that out and prevents it from happening.

Quit whining, it's not a h&s game...otherwise every guild would be able to hold it's own against the others in melee combat at some point. Now THAT'S unrealistic.
Heheh, gank disarm and it's like...hrrrmmm may as well just go with rangers...eventually you'll get parry...and all this other cool shit to boot...why be a warrior if any other guild can stand up to you at equal days in melee...that'd be pretty pathetic for one WHO'S FUCKING SPECIALTY IS MELEE!!

If warriors couldn't do what they can, it'd be a pretty pointless guild to choose...they don't have anything else. They're limited in so many other ways it's pathetic...many times it's like...dammit need me a ranger or merchant to find that little fuck that's hiding from us...any other things they get non-combat related all come from subguilds and can never get very good.
Some very useful things that those other guilds get....a warrior can -never- have, or if they can...will never be good enough at for it to be of much use.

[Lazloth]

No one is suggesting removing disarm from the game; the discussion has degenerated (loosely) to balancing it.

[Anonymous]

Right, and I think the skill itself is perfectly balanced, now the issue of people picking things up during combat is a different...but related issue.

[wizturbo]

My concern is a ROLEPLAYING one.  It has -nothing- to do with the code.

Code says you can kill a mekillot solo. Code says you can take on 4 halfling warriors by using disarm constantly.  Code says look at someone who has a mask on and see every detail of them.


Code is one thing.  Realistic roleplay is another.

If a warrior is walking in the woods alone and is assaulted by four halfling warriors, what should that warrior do?  Realistically...they should realize the chances of them defeating those halflings is basically zero, and they should retreat.  If your cornered, and cannot run...fine, do whatever you gotta do to survive and then roleplay that it was an amazing spurt of luck.  Roleplay that the Highlord himself empowered you to defeat those halflings single-handedly...because realistically your chances of survival would be slim to none.  But for fuck's sake, don't go out there and hunt four more just because you know codedly you can with little risk.

If a mekillot (something larger then the size of a huge house) attacks you in the desert...while the code says you can use your uber archery skill to kill it...whats the more realistic course of action?  Run.  A creature of that strength could kill you in a single blow, and you couldn't parry something so massive, it'd just snap your blade in half.

Now...lets say your a guard...trying to protect your beloved spice merchant who's being attacked by a mekillot!  Now what do you do...?  Well if your a heroic type, you might charge the mekillot and buy your merchant friend some time to escape.  But should you go out and hunt mekillots by yourself because some arbitrary skill called 'parry' is able to allow it, FUCK NO.

[X-D]

Anon, as Lazloth said, nobody said remove disarm, far from it, if anybody was talking about doing so I'd be loud in arguing against getting rid of it.

But, if you think that disarm is the only thing that makes them special, well, I have two things to say.

First, you REALLY need to play a warrior longer, even without disarm they are awesome combat machines, especialy later in life, no non-warrior class could even begin to match them, even without disarm.

Second, you are exactly the type of person I talk about, work disarm...disarm disarm disarm, only skill worthwhile. When a single skill makes a class in peoples opinion then there is something wrong with that skill or the way it gets used, in this case, both.

(EDIT TO ADD)

As far as disarm's current incarnation, being able to pick things up in combat currently is fine, Hey, if we are going to be unrealistic, lets make sure that it is fair and unrealistic all the way around.  Of course...we should put HP regen back the way it was so the high end races get that clear advantage, oh, and kick damage should be put back, thirst should go back down and you should get more water from food again.

(Disclaimer:Most of the edited paragraph was sarcasm.)

[Faglore]

Let me remind you, that a Zalanthan man is not a man of our world. He has a for stronger constitution. He is able to survive harsh harsh weather, starvation to a degree, dehydration to a degree, every day he faces perils we as humans never even dream of. Therefore, to compare what we as humans can do to what a Zalanthan man does ig is a fruitless arguement. Now I totally agree that there could be a slight delay perhaps, I am totally for that. What I am argueing, as you can see by my post. is these people who want to significantly reduce disarm, and significantly reduce a warrior's ability. For example, I am argueing more at Evilroeslade's posts, along with others. I definatly don't twink out my disarms, so I would not give two poopies about a delay on using disarm for the same person. But as for using it on other people, there should be no delay. Remember, as a master warrior it is very feasable to get to four people's death spots before they kill you, sure you will get wounded, but you can kill them before they kill you. Why? Because you know where to hit them, how to hit them, and how to protect several crucial areas on your body while you do so. Do you go looking for trouble like this? Of course not, that is not good rp unless you are looking to commit suicide or something, or some other good ig reason though I fail to grasp one. Remember people, how many people can do this out of say 500,000.. two, three people? And in most cases, you kick ass with disarm because those damn npc's spam disarm you. Welcome to the world of yofault.

[Agent_137]

Go to bed, people, and let this thread die. Please.

[Angela Christine]

Go to bed, people, and let this thread die. Please.

Where is the fun in that?  

The only way to kill a thread is to start more interesting threads, ones that distract everone from the "bad" thread.  So what would everyone find more facinating than disarm?  I don't know, but I suggest something to do with sex.


AC

[wizturbo]

I agree with AC as always.  Spamming "moans loudly" is twinkish in mudsex.

[X-D]

That is not starting a new thread, that is derailing an already derailed thread and could possibly destroy the universe as we know it!!


So, in effort to prevent this.

Disarm spam BAD!

[Dracul]

Bad!

edit:

Bad disarm spam. Bad bad disarm spam.

emote continues scolding ~disarm-spam as people shake their heads

[Wyrd]

So many people agree that there is something wrong with disarm. Like for example Faglore and Anonymous Kank. Their arguments againts disarm work even better when combined together so I'll do it for them.

Faglore said:

To kill someone, you need not do more then cut them once on certain points upon their body. Therefore, a -master- of combat, can and will kill four people with his masterful strokes. Sure he will take some damage, as it is nearly impossible to evade the attacks of four people. However, it is so feasable that it makes my head hurt for someone to kill four people in a fight. Imagine someone just slicing the throat of one of them, leaping backward and catching one in the eye, getting one on the achilles so one person is immobile, and then the last one on the throat or what not. Sure you will get hit a little doing this, but it is very very feasable.

in another post:

Remember, as a master warrior it is very feasable to get to four people's death spots before they kill you, sure you will get wounded, but you can kill them before they kill you. Why? Because you know where to hit them, how to hit them, and how to protect several crucial areas on your body while you do so.

Faglore points out the fact that it is not disarm skill that makes a warrior but his overall combat ability, precision, reflexes etc (note that he doesn't use word disarm even once in his examples of master warrior).

Anonymous Kank:

Sorry but if it weren't for disarm...any other guild that's even somewhat combat oriented would be able to stand up to a warrior of equal days..

Here Kank points out that it is unfortunatelly not the case. He makes us notice that disarm is warriors *main* weapon against anybody else.
In fact I think that we should change guild name from warrior to Disarmer

This leads to a problem presented by X-D:

Faglore, this one instance (and I've seen more) That warrior was COMPLETLY unable to hit an armed halfling warrior one on one, this is not a "master" warrior by any sense of the word, nor are 99% of the chars that can do such things, they just twink on code knowing that disarm is an easy and painless skill to work up and that an unarmed char of any class, no matter how skilled they are is an easy target.

Try to imagine above situation. Try to imagine Johnny the warrior not being able to hit halflings with his, let's say, hammer and then accuratelly hitting their weapons, let's say daggers (which are smaller than halfs, believe it or not) or the hand (also smaller than a whole half, really, and as agile as the rest of him) witch holds it, repeatedly (!) He not only hits... but manages to make them drop their weapon (somewhat harder than just hitting it)
While the scene pesented by Faglore may be called Hollywood-like, this one is plain silly. And I don't think combat on such a gritty world like armageddon should be silly. I would much more like it Hollywood-like or maybe even realistic (but hollywood-like is also good).

...just combining what other people said...

oh and roleplaying issue...

Wizturbo said:

Code is one thing. Realistic roleplay is another.

And he is right, but not entirely. This two subjects are combined, like it or not. Example? Crafting delay. It could be removed and we could count on people that they will spent appropriet time sitting and emoting... and certainly some of them would do it... some of them; maybe even majority... but we *would* have a problem of 'speedy' crafters.

Code can be used to:
1. Make situations that take place in game more realistic and imaginable.
2. Promote roleplaying by removing or limiting twinkish temptations.
3. Balancing between PCs and their skills.

I started this thread with points 1 and 2 in mind. Point 3 might be not so important (though still an issue I belive) because zalanthas is a harsh word and not very 'fair'.

[spawnloser]

Wyrd, read this.

When a single skill makes a class in peoples opinion then there is something wrong with that skill or the way it gets used, in this case, both.

Disarm is not a warrior's "*main*" weapon against anybody else.  They have plenty of other things they can do in combat.

Granted, I disagree that the skill has something wrong with it, having been on both ends of it recently and seen how it works.  I feel it is a problem with some players and how they use the skill.

[Forest Junkie]

Hrrm. I've been mulling over this shit a good while, and I -think- that I figured something out:

When a pc attempts a disarm against his opponent, his cap of the skill is rolled against the opposing pc's. Whomever has a higer roll due to their higer disarm skill gets the win, while the other loses his/her weapon.

What if:

Disarm were first rolled against the opposing pc's agility? This would be far more realistic, and allow for critters like halflings to retain their uber badassness against 10 day warriors.

Let me expand. When two people are fighting, player 1 will attempt a disarm. If he wins his roll against his opponents in agility, -then- he will be able to attempt a disarm, in which another roll will take place.

Possible way the code would work:

Code Select Expand


>disarm dude
Slowly, you circle around your opponent, waiting for an opening to counter their weapon onto the ground.
(roll of die in agility on both sides)

If you win:
You slam your weapon against your oppenent's, wrenching it from their hands onto the ground!

If you lose:
You fumble the parry and lose your own weapon instead! (won agility role yet lost disarm)
Your opponent swiftly leaps back, grinning at your failed attempt.(lost the agility role)


This would cut back tons of spam, and make the skill, IMO, more realistic. You have to be swift in order to even USE your skill. The disarm skill itself is just that. Anyone can learn how to disarm, but the point is, are they quick enough?

Maybe a harsh solution, but hell, say bye bye to spammo.

[Anonymous]

Gosh, what a wonderful idea....let's make more coded things in the game count on agility...further making the -stat- more important. :roll:

All I'm saying is...I don't want to see something done just to specifically make disarm weaker. There are other routes to make the whole function  more realistic (in a fair and balanced way) without weakening it.

As far as the whole twink disarm thing...that's bullshit, whoever said that doesn't know me (never even started trying to disarm until around ten days with either of my longer lived warriors) ...my point about it is...take two warriors...equal in all ways except for one...disarm...one is better than the other...that one will win.
Kick...not as significant...armor tends to absorb it all now unless you have insane strength.
Bash...not really...the skill is shit anyway unless your a hg.


Yes, disarm spam is bad...but so is the fact that people can so easily retrieve their weapons...the drawback isn't bad enough for trying to pick up a weapon in combat...with a 40 day warrior...people would just easily snatch their weapon back unless I got an exceptional disarm on them.

This pc's weapon skill had branched over 15 days of play previously and it didn't matter who I was fighting...most of the time I'd still miss them when they went to pick it up. (Even though I was hitting them with their weapon in their hand before.) :roll:

As for the arguement about not being able to hit someone with their weapon in their hand but you disarm them and kick the shit out of them without it? What in the name of flying monkeys is wrong with that???
Absolutely nothing, it's just people trying to rationalize fucking with the disarm skill and make it so non-warriors can stand against them better...not needed...not realistic either.


I'd like to know -who- has seen a warrior fight four halfling warriors IG...I don't believe it...not even a little...my last warrior could only beat one of them at around forty days and it took him down to moderate condition.

[Forest Junkie]

Gosh, what a wonderful idea....let's make more coded things in the game count on agility...further making the -stat- more important.

Thank you, smartass. As I said, it was an idea, not something I was truly serious about.

All I'm saying is...I don't want to see something done just to specifically make disarm weaker. There are other routes to make the whole function  more realistic (in a fair and balanced way) without weakening it.

What are these "routes" then? Please, enlighten me.

As for the arguement about not being able to hit someone with their weapon in their hand but you disarm them and kick the shit out of them without it? What in the name of flying monkeys is wrong with that???
Absolutely nothing, it's just people trying to rationalize fucking with the disarm skill and make it so non-warriors can stand against them better...not needed...not realistic either.

If you are not fast enough to hit your target, how are you fast enough to knock that target's weapon into the next room? I'm sure you have a good reason.

[Anonymous]

If you are not fast enough to hit your target, how are you fast enough to knock that target's weapon into the next room? I'm sure you have a good reason.

Element of surprise, they're not expecting your attack to be directed at their weapon...they're expecting it to be directed at striking them.

[Anonymous]

As I already said...make it so it's harder for people to pick up things during combat...make there be a chance you can't pick it up due to evading incoming attacks from your opponent...and make the negatives to picking it up while fighting much worse.

No reason to spam disarm if they couldn't pick up their weapons so easily.

Maybe increase the delay a little, but only on a failed disarm attempt.

With all of those...a critically failed disarm attempt would really suck...not only is there a delay before you could do anything...but you still have to get your weapon back...there's a chance you might not be able to...and you may just get messed up trying to.

So, it would tone it down a little...cutting down the spam...but not entirely to the detriment of the disarmer...because it would balance things out on -both- sides a bit better.

[X-D]

Element of surprise, they're not expecting your attack to be directed at their weapon...they're expecting it to be directed at striking them.

Um, sure, 4 warriors in a row, never expected you to aim for the weapon, though they are skilled in combat and disarm, more skilled in every area of combat except disarm then your char. The best part is they are all dumber then half-giants because after the first two got disarmed they were still not expecting it to happen to them. Heh, try again.

...my point about it is...take two warriors...equal in all ways except for one...disarm...one is better than the other...that one will win

Your point is moot, Why, because two otherwise equal warriors, it does not matter what skill is better on one of them, they are then not equal and the other will win, does not matter if it is bash, disarm, kick, parry etc

Plenty of threads of people bitching about kick and two equal warriors but one with a better kick skill wins, which is as it should be. Same for disarm.

But you are sitting there saying warriors are worthless without that skill, or even if said skill is balanced or "weakened" some. Which proves the point of the skill being unbalanced by you and others saying so, you even state (incorrectly I might add) That kick and bash are worthless, farther showing that you think disarm is what makes the warrior class.

Now, anything that can be done to balance disarm so it is less easily twinked/spammed etc will be considered a weakening of the skill by most.

(edit)
Though I am all for a simple increase in delay either longer after or add delay before and keep current after, forces more of a commitment to a disarm attempt. And increased delay on failed disarm attempts after, showing off balance or what have you. Combined with increased penalties for picking stuff up from the ground in combat. Hey, if nothing else then when the person flees the raider the raider might at least have gotten a weapon or two out of it.

[Anonymous]

Uhmmm...okay dude...you obviously aren't even reading everything I wrote...I said you can balance it out...on BOTH sides. It's unrealistic in a way for BOTH the disarmer and the disarmed NOT just the disarmer.

Most of the suggestions purely make it more realistic against the disarmer instead of making it more realistic for BOTH.

Are you getting me? You reading what I'm saying yet? Or still making assumptions about me because I don't think it should be fixed in a one-sided way?

I never said a damned thing about successfully surprising four people in a row...just one...in fact I DID say that I don't believe anyone beat down four halfling warriors solo...I think someone is exaggerating when they said that.

[creeper386]

I'll agree that warriors SHOULD be the masters of melee. I don't think having unrealistic skills is the way to go about it.

Just like kick, which from what I've seen has been toned down but still suffers from the, 'you don't have the skill so you are fucked if someone kicks you' point of view. Having unrealistic skills may make things even but it isn't they way to go about it. Also, just because warriors are warriors, doesn't mean from hour one to day 50 they should be the only people that can be in melee combat and stand their own. A skilled ranger, assassin, burglar ... Thief what have you should be able to stand their own against a less skilled warrior in combat. But if that warrior has a decent disarm, or a decent kick skill, the fight is way skewed.

I'll just say that. Yes right now it's balanced, but it's balanced in an unrealistic way. It SHOULD be balanced, just not in the way it is.

Creeper

[Anonymous]

I'll just say that. Yes right now it's balanced, but it's balanced in an unrealistic way. It SHOULD be balanced, just not in the way it is.

YES!!! Finally somone who understands what I'm trying to say!! :lol:

Something needs to be fixed to make it more REALISTIC...but it's BALANCED just fine. Most of the suggestions, while making it more realistic, would unbalance it against the warrior guild.

Whew! Damn, I was starting to feel everything I was saying was falling on closed minds and deaf ears.

[Dracul]

I think warriors basic offense/defense skills are significantly higher than all other classes to deem them as balanced.

Have a couple day old assasin....he'll get whooped by a day old warrior.