Suggestions on how to curb GDB Flaming and off topic discuss

[sarahjc]

Just what the question asks.. I decided that since we are de-railing another thread with this topic, why not give it its own thread.. Please be polite and courteous with this. If you can't post nicely please don't post.

With that said, this problem is ongoing all the time, and the imms do their best to stop it, but how do you stop it? Stop Guest posts? Kick people off the boards? I'd like to hear what people think are rational solutions to the problem or if they think it's a problem at all. And please.. Play nice.

[Anonymous]

Board bans.

[sarahjc]

I thought maybe a three time offender type deal, and then a ban for a month, but is that really going help? I mean, can't the person come back as a guest, and if you ban guests, can't they just come back under a different name?

Also I like the guest post option. I think you need it for people who don't want to potentially reveal who they play but have an important opinion on a topic because of current experience.

[Akaramu]

I dont see guest posts as a problem. The worst flames have been posted with GDB names, not as guest posts (except for the occasional stupid / annoying guest comment, but those are rare.) I'd rather not get rid of them because sometimes I am glad to be able to post a question without people guessing who I play because of said question.

I agree with CRW that board bans are the way to go. Maybe temporary bans the first time, and permanent if they still dont learn to behave. Quite obviously, simple warnings / reminders dont change a thing.

As for coming back with different names, that person would need several email adresses to keep making new forum names, which is too much of a hassle. Besides, the IP could be checked / banned if necessary.

[UnderSeven]

I don't think we should stop guest posts, but if possible have guest posts put up ip's?  That way people might not be so inclined to use a guest account to flame.  I'm not sure I like the idea of bans, but I'm sure the staff would warn a repeat offender if they had to.

I would like to say though, the flaming on this board is the least of ANY OTHER mud gdb I've ever seen, considerably.  While that's no reason not to keep tring to bring it down, I think at least this board deserves some props for that.

[Bestatte]

Remove posting privileges from repeat offenders who have been warned or had posts deleted on a regular basis already. And get tough on people who look like they're starting to emulate the ones who have already had the privilege taken away.

Guest posts that exist only to provoke flames or "question authority" should be deleted with subsequent posts by the offending guest leading toward a IP ban.

Guest posts have their place, to protect accounts from being recognized. However I would suggest to all of us (myself included) that we make a new registered account specifically so we can post without worrying that someone will know that "the person who apologizes for killing the elf without emoting last week" was us, or asks about the backstab skill, or needs help on other things that are better off posted anonymously, is one of us.

[jhunter]

Guest posts that exist only to provoke flames or "question authority" should be deleted with subsequent posts by the offending guest leading toward a IP ban.

"Question authority"

Are you saying ban people for disagreeing with those in charge?
That doesn't seem like much of a discussion board to me...it's the disagreements that sometimes bring about good ideas when they don't degrade into flames.

Your never going to have a flame free board...not going to happen unless you keep people from posting at all.

Besides....then what do you do about those that post just in an attempt to bait flames? I've seen many who do it, while not being outright offensive they do just enough to provoke others. This is where it all starts, IMHO.

I personally find those that preach "rp'er than thou" attitudes on the board more offensive than the flames themselves.

I think people blow it into a bigger thing when they post to complain about people flaming or derailing threads...all you do is add to the problem.

[Edited to add]

I also don't doubt for a moment that once bannings start to happen, there are cliques here that will band together and start working to get those they dislike banned from the boards.

Baiting...then e-mailing the moderators to turn them in an such. There would be no defense against this and it's just going to cause more problems both with the board and the game. It would create more animosity than exists already, IMHO.

[sarahjc]

Edited for clarification purposes

Besides....then what do you do about those that post just in an attempt to bait flames? I've seen many who do it, while not being outright offensive they do just enough to provoke others. This is where it all starts, IMHO.

Heh.. I got into an extensive argument with a person over that the other day Jhunter, and though it burns me to admit it.. That person was right.  When people are irritated it is hard to keep your month shut about something and commenting on the situation at hand can sometimes make it worse, especially when you pinpoint people.

Although, myself and that person had a fairly nasty conversation over PMs, (which is how I think it should be, we both  steamed and stewed) nobody else had to suffer through it. Maybe a good way to get things under control would be for the Imm's to delete the offending post, give the person a warning and tell them to take it up privately, if they continue to kill the boards, send them packing..

Thought that also begs the question,  "What is enough?  And what is offensive? And what adds to or de-rails a thread?

[Zore]

I'm not sure if we all agree on what flame means.

Being impolite is not flaming. Criticising other people's ideas is not flaming. Disagreeing with anyone (yes, that includes everyone) is certainly not flaming. Heated discussions are not automatically flaming.

Flaming is insulting and provoking writing "with a patently ridiculous attitude or with hostility toward a particular person or group of people".

In my opinion, as long as we are keeping a thread somewhat on topic, and do not resort to personal attacks, things won't need additional control. If this is somehow related to the "dislike" thread... I do not think the majority of the posts were flames. Keeping in mind the thread was about dislikes, not likes, aside a couple of personal attacks the thread progressed pretty smoothly.

If you (this is passive voice, meaning if anyone of you) are easily insulted and offended by people disagreeing with you and doing that impolitely, I'm afraid there probably isn't a single useful moderated or unmoderated discussion board on the Net to suit your needs.

[jhunter]

Being impolite is not flaming.

Nope, not in itself. But it sure does contribute to it.

I think it should be treated just as if it were a flame.

You want to keep a fire from starting?

Take away the fuel.

[SailorMars]

These boards are remarkably free of flames, compared to many others. When it comes to boardiquette, the best rule I ever saw was "be civil".

There's "proactive checks" and "reactive checks" on a message board.

Reactive is the admins locking posts, deleting posts, editing posts, or banning users. Ideally, proactive checks keep these to a minimum.

Proactive checks are simply things a user can do before hitting "submit". Is your post starting a fire or further fanning an existing fire? Is someone egging you into a pissing contest? Is what you posted an argument or a debate? Are you in a shitty mood for whatever reason at that moment and is that coming out in your post? Are you stating the law instead of an opinion? One of the best things a poster can do is read over their post in a preview before sending it. If it reads as any of the above, hit back and walk away. Come back later and try again.

As for punishments, the imms probably handle it like anyone else... too many abuses equals a ban. Again, these boards are really light on flames, from my experience, so kudos to the posters and imms that know how to keep it civil.

Edit: Oh yeah, the edit button is good too for removing stuff that you realize later was a mistake. Like my typos. Zap. Zap. Zap.

[Zore]

[Removed by Author]

[jhunter]

[Edited as is no longer relevant.]

[marko]

A very simple system - One warning then banned for six months.

That's it.

No extra chances.  You screw up twice - you are timed out.

At six months the ban is removed and one can post again.

During the period of the ban - it is possible to read posts just not reply.

I'd also remove guest privs to post from every forum except ask the players (since the typical useful gust post is a newbie asking questions).  

I've posted as a guest in the past to avoid letting people know what I was playing - but I'm willing to just not post to get rid of questionable guest posts.

I'd let the immortals decide what they deem innapropriate and let them take care of it.

[Carnage]

Your never going to have a flame free board...not going to happen unless you keep people from posting at all.

This is the correct answer.

Being impolite is not flaming. Criticising other people's ideas is not flaming. Disagreeing with anyone (yes, that includes everyone) is certainly not flaming. Heated discussions are not automatically flaming.

Agreed.

By the way some people leap to call flame, I wonder if they have any idea what a flame is.

Edit: And also, I'd like to see immortals being regulated as well. Sanvean's comment about abrasive posts being deleted should count towards all, -including- Bhagarva's.

[Zore]

What purpose or contribution to this discussion did that post have Zore?

It had the purpose I mentioned in the message, to find out what is exactly this "impoliteness" you wish to eradicate from the GDB.

Yes, by that point I was sick of it and lost my temper...I am also human after all.

So am I. And I admit that post of mine appeared too much of a personal attack, so I'll remove it.

I see your post all in all as a perfect example, you posted for no other reason than to start shit.

I wanted and still want to start "shit": discussion about what is conceived to be "impoliteness" and if we really want to remove it from the board.

[Werd]

Take away guest posting and tie all forum accounts to Arm accounts. That way nobody can be a jackass anonymously and nobody can just use a random anonymous email account that is different than the one on their Arm account to register for the boards either. If the accounts were verified against their Arm accounts, I think it would start to curb a great deal of the problems, especially if potential banning of the game accounts or loss of karma or bad comments on the accounts were a possibility for repeat offenders or particularly annoying morons.

Keeping track of guest post ips isn't going to work, anyone could easily use a proxy whenever they post or have a dynamic ip. Associating GDB account with game account would go a long way in bringing about a more civil environment on the forums, either that or start charging 10 bucks to register an account like Somethingawful does.

Personally I have not really seen that much of a problem on these forums, aside from some really annoying derails.

[sarahjc]

I'll try to state this again. I was hoping this thread would be a discussion on how to help bickering as well as flaming and De-Railment on the boards.. Please try to keep it at that.

Things were going good. Please try to refrain from using exact examples or finger pointing.. This thread can very easily, go very wrong, very quickly..

I would like to see arguments, not harassment..

[Mexie]

People just need to learn when to let go.  Continuing an arguement when it's obvious that you aren't going to agree doesn't make you bigger man (or woman).  It just makes you look like an ass.  Especially when the crap from that arguement spills over from one thread into another.

 Most people with any bit of common sense can tell when a discussion is turning sour/stagnant and let go, accordingly, because it can't go anywhere good from there.

[Mr.Camel]

How about instead of posting as a guest without an account, you would get an option to post anonymously with your account? That way, guest posts would be easier to track.

[Vettrock]

I like the anonymous idea.  That way the staff could still see who you are, but the playerbase could not.

[sarahjc]

I like that as well..

[Werd]

Yeah good idea, tack that onto my tying of the GDB accounts to the Arm accounts idea and I think it would be the perfect solution.

[Bestatte]

The staff can already see who is posting even when they're posting as "guest." Obviously this isn't stopping anyone from doing it anyway. And I reiterate that not all "guest" posts are insulting, inflammatory, provocative, etc. A lot of people are new to the game, new to the forum, and simply don't have accounts yet. I don't think banning guest posts will solve the problem and might turn away newbies who just need a helping hand.

[jhunter]

I don't think having our game accounts tied to the discussion board is a good idea.

What we do here should have no bearing on what we do when we're playing.

If that happened, I'd erase my gdb account and never use it again for fear I might accidently say something that would piss someone off and have my game account zapped for it.

[UnderSeven]

To some degree I agree with hunter on that one.  I don't think we have vindictive staff, but on some psychological level it maybe hard not to have your oppinion at LEAST subconsciously affected by what someone else says.  So I think annonymous posting and not requiring us to say who we are at least gives us better feelings about it.  

Also if accounts are tied to GDB names and you figure out who is who, that is a way to get ic info.  Not that it's not possible already, but this would make it worse.  For instance if people knew my char was so and so and said char was believed dead but then a weak later posts in the clan forum and suddenly everyone knows it's a farse.

About what carnage had to say, it's true we'll never be flame free.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fight back the flaming.  The fact is someone getting bashed to the moon and back doesn't promote discussion, it just squelches ideas which even if they are poor one, people might learn things, or new ideas can be branched from the discussion of what's on people's minds.

The fact is boards I see with less flame protective staff (just about every other board I see,) if you have an idea that's not real popular, you might as well not even post it.

[SailorMars]

A guest login could have a page between the login and actually hitting the boards.

"Dear anonymous guest type person. If you're thinking that being anonymous will allow you to flame without us knowing who you are, guess again. Instead, save us the trouble and go play with a hair dryer in the tub. If you're anonymous due to wanting to keep IC information private, that's great. Your thal-knot is in the mail."

Click okay to continue.

On a more serious note, a listing of the board policies, etc. on that page might be nice, with a little "I've read and agree" checkbox.

[Miee (not logged in)]

Because I am TEH 14zY, I also don't want guest posts disabled.  I've also said before that there are times when I don't want certain PCs associated with Miee.  That can lead to badness.  I try to be as vague as possible, but sometimes, well, it's not possible to be vague -enough-.

Once upon a time, during the days of "Classic Internet", I posted on a board on a still extant (why God, why) gaming site.  The admin was, and probably is, an ineffectual tool.  The board in question had become quite off-topic, was crashed often by the sheer number of posts, and was, in essence, self-policed.

Now, like I said, this was during "Classic Internet" when there were slightly less nitwits running about and running a website was a good buisness model.

There was some good natured flaming amongst us.  There was "I swear to God, get a brain before I Hadouken you off the Internet."  We ignored the people who showed up just to flame.

Now, after my rambling, we reach my point.  Just post around the flamers.  You don't have to respond.  If there's a few salient points in the flame, address them, ignore the rest.  Drop our admins a line with a link to the post in question, and continue the discussion.

As far as keeping things on topic, we just need to do our best.  God knows, I'm practically a queen on tangents and random, unneccessary stories that have no point.

[Spoon]

Linking the impoliteness point to the thread:

Perhaps being impolite is not flaming, but if everyone was polite to one another, then there would be no possibility at all of flaming.

The problem with this is that 'being impolite' is far to vague, as flaming can also be, so punishing those accused is bound to end up with misunderstandings. Plus some people just are naturally impolite.

I'm for letting more Imm's have the ability to lock threads (as I understand that not many can) perhaps, so offending threads can be finished off before they end up eight pages and counting........

Problem is, the only way to deal with this is by essentially taking away our freedom of what we can write (toned down a little).

I don't want to be part of some Nazi GDB.

[Angela Christine]

You don't have to live up to Canadian levels of politeness, but you don't have to be Judge Judy, either.  If Judge Judy is mild compared to you, then you are probably over the line.

Having an argument has nothing to do with being rude.  Ever seen a high school or college debate team at work?  They are rarely rude, I think they lose points for being rude, yet they manage to argue effectively.

There is a difference between:

I disagree with you, and here is why . . .

and

You are an ignorant twit,  and here is why . . .

:roll:


I think including IP addresses could be helpful, if it is possible.  It wouldn't eliminate anonymity, but it might make people think twice.  

Eliminating guest posting could cause problems.  There are legitimate reasons to guest post, and an a no-guest policy turns off newbies.  




Perhaps appointing some non-imm or semi-imm moderators would help.  A couple people that don't want the responsibility or hassles of being an in-game imm, but who are willing to read the boards obsessively and wipe out the worst casses of rudeness and bickering.  IC information is a more delicate judgement call, but most people can recognise when a thread has gone to hell because two or three people are locked in a bicker to the death.  It would also get rid of unrelated advertising spam messages and the occasional "come to my anti-arm website and learn sekrits!" posts.  It wouldn't eliminate the need for imm moderation, because even reasonable moderators are human and will occasionally get caught up in heated discussion.  The non-imm moderators could also refer imms to "boarderline" threads for final judgement, if they aren't sure if something is too IC or too abrasive  in tone.  

This would free up the regular imms for their in-game activities, which in the end are more important.  I would rather have the coders coding and the storytellers telling stories, then have them spending hours each day patrolling the GDB.  I read almost every thread, and reply to too many of those threads, so I spend 2-6 hours a day on the GDB, that means that I often spend more time with the GDB than I actually spend playing the game. :roll:  Obviously it would be counter-productive to have a couple imms spending 4 hours a day patrolling the GDB, they have better things to be doing inside the game itself, especially if they consider board moderation to be an ugly chore.


I think the GDB is important.  It provides a forum for building the sense of community that can be lacking in a game without global OOC channels inside the MUD.  Get rid of the Chatter forum, and the chatter will move to the General Discussion forum, or infect other threads.  


Or we could always move back to the old GDB.  http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive2002.html It was just too much work to carry on long bickering sessions back then.  


AC

[flurry]

I do like the simplicity of the board policty

No flames, no IC-sensitive information.

However, it seems to lead to a good deal of "flame lawyering", for lack of a better term.   That is, a lot of nonsense like "nope, technically that wasn't a flame" and people feeling justified in acting boorish because they've managed to stay outside of their own personal interpretation of flaming.

It might help to spell out more specifically what is and is not acceptable.  

I also support the idea of temporary bans.

I like marko's suggestion of only one forum where Guest posting is possible.   I've seen other boards like that, and it seems like a good compromise.

[Carnage]

However, it seems to lead to a good deal of "flame lawyering", for lack of a better term. That is, a lot of nonsense like "nope, technically that wasn't a flame" and people feeling justified in acting boorish because they've managed to stay outside of their own personal interpretation of flaming.

And on the flipside, it also leads to armchair moderation where people come out of the woodworks to scream flame. Unfortunately, it works all too well as I've been able to get threads closed by sarcastically declaring, "Flame! Flame! Lock the thread! Flame!" inside them.

[Gorobei]

The non-imm moderators could also refer imms to "boarderline" threads for final judgement, if they aren't sure if something is too IC or too abrasive  in tone.  

AC

Boarderline!  Tee hee!  Was that intentional?  I hope so.  If it wasn't, let's say it was anyway.

[Agent_137]

i don't want to read three pages of this. But I will offer my ideas:

Board ban by IP. - can be worked around, but still a strong signal.

Thread deletion - can be upsetting  to those with legit posts in the thread

post deletion - very effective coupled with a PM to the offender. Requires heavy moderation.

gdbs breed anger because of the large scale human interaction with the anonyminity of the internet. You can leave this anger to broil and self-police with weak moderation or you can take control of it with strong moderation. I think a message board THIS size needs strong moderation, but this will lead to some stress directed toward the moderators.

A topic like this is tough. It's such a wide gray line. You need top-notch moderators, or it can easily get worse.

On a final note, everyone needs to take some responsibility. If you see a flame, or a post that is getting out of line, don't respond back to them on the thread. Instead, send them a private message explaining politely why you think they're getting out of line, and then point out how it's better and more effective to send polite PMs instead of flames on the board.

This was done to me and was very effective, and I turned around and did the same to a poster who was getting close to flaming. He understands now to. If you don't want heavy moderation but you want boards with good discussion and no flames, this is the only way.

-Agent

[ShaLeah]

I'd like to see an ignore command installed so that maybe there wouldn't be so much tension. There are certain posters I happily skip over, I'm sure some people feel the same way about me and others, the ability to not even see what these people write would easily cut the back and forth crap right out, provided people actually use it of course.

[Miee]

More random tale time!

Think Before You Flame.

Once upon about a month ago, a trailer for a new Panzer Dragoon game began to circulate about.  It was very convincing, and my love was quite excited about it.  Well, appparently the thing circled too far, and the truth had to come out: it was simply a -very- well done hoax.  In his heartbreak and sorrow, he posted a message about his, well, heartbreak and sorrow.  The other night we had the pleasure of meeting another Sega employee, who was nice enough to fill us in on the hoax a bit more.  My boyfriend, laughing about the trailer now, admitted he wrote an angry post to a forum.  When the employee found out what he had posted under, there was a bit of a shocked laugh because he (the employee) remembered that post.  Since the employee still posted there, my boyfriend thought he'd return to the forum last night...

...to find that all his posts had been removed and he had been banned.

His posts tend to be very well-written, no grammar errors, no spelling errors, no 1337 bullshit.

No more access to Sega employee.  (except via me, of course)

So kidlets.  Think long and hard before you freak out on here.