Subdue rp good or bad?

[I Have Steel]

Ok, say two people are fighting.

Player a flees, but comes right back in, subdues player b and punches them while subdued.

They flee again, come back, subdue, and punch... Repeat until opponent is out.

Is that considered acceptable, or is it KICK!WHAM!YADAMNTWINK!!! ...?

[John]

I have to say it sounds like twinky behaviour to me.......

Yeah. Definitely sounds like twinky behaviour.

[Clegane]

Was this all done without any sort of background or emoting or anything? Just simple code-spamming?

If that was the case, I'd say it could seem a bit beardy.

But if the player was providing descriptors and emotive explanations for why they were  carrying out these actions, then why complain?
I mean, I would see nothing wrong with something like:

Player A subdues, then flees, returns.
Player A comes curses under his breath as he steps back, moving out of blade range and keeping mobile as he waits for an opening.
Player A springs forward off of the ball of his foot and lunges at Player B, grabbing them in a vice-like grip and driving an armored fist into Player B's face, rending flesh and crunching bone.
Player A subdues, then flees, returns.
Player A brutally shoves Player B back, stepping back several paces as Player B is off balance. Before Player B can fully get his bearings, Player A makes a diving tackle for Player B's legs, driving his bone gauntlet up into Player B's abdomen, causing serious pain.

Anyway...that was all pretty hamfisted, but you get the point. If they put any sort of explanation to justify the coded effects of their actions, thats pretty different from:
Subdue, Hit B, flee, enter, subdue, hit B, flee, enter, subdue, etc.

[Twilight]

I'd say they were trying to get out of the coded mechanics behind bare-handed fighting.  If you are doing it because the code "works better" or gives you an advantage, it might be twinky, for example:

Player A attacks Player B.
Player B flees, re-enters the room and subdues Player A.
Player B hits Player A.

All fine so far, I don't have a problem with that.  But how about...

Player A attacks Player B.
Player B flees, re-enters the room, attempts to subdue Player A and fails.
Player A attacks Player B.
Player B flees, re-enters the room, attempts to subdue Player A.

Thats starting to border on twinkish to me. Sure, they might have a reason, but it looks to me like they are exploiting kill lag, especially if they do it repeatedly until it works.

I would have to say your example would have to be in context to know if it was twinkish or not.  For example, was the subduing player exploiting the other player's kill lag?

[Quirk]

But if the player was providing descriptors and emotive explanations for why they were  carrying out these actions, then why complain?

Nah, it's still twinky, because the subdue code is broken, at least against armed opponents. It doesn't check the defence skill of the one being subdued, so you end up with the anomalous situation where a character who cannot get either their weapon or hand past the other person's guard can still subdue them. Even at that it might be permissible to try on an armed opponent caught by surprise (say, a subdue from hiding), but repeatedly attempting subdue to bypass the defence check is code abuse IMO.

It doesn't really matter how you dress up code abuse with emotes - it remains code abuse.

Quirk

[jmordetsky]

I'm with Quirk...sounds shite.

[spawnloser]

Me too.  Code abuse is code abuse no matter how it is prettied up with emotes.

[Carnage]

Ok, say two people are fighting.

Player a flees, but comes right back in, subdues player b and punches them while subdued.

They flee again, come back, subdue, and punch... Repeat until opponent is out.

Is that considered acceptable, or is it KICK!WHAM!YADAMNTWINK!!! ...?

Mail the MUD. Quirk, Clegane, Spawnloser, Mansa, John, Twilight, and jmordetsky aren't the ones who consider what's acceptable or not.

[jmordetsky]

Mail the MUD. Quirk, Clegane, Spawnloser, Mansa, John, Twilight, and jmordetsky aren't the ones who consider what's acceptable or not.

Yeah. We're not and you should. Thought I'd hope the imms will see it in the same light.

[Carnage]

Yeah. We're not and you should. Thought I'd hope the imms will see it in the same light.

Nowhere in my post did I claim to be. I simply said that it was best to mail the MUD.

Our opinions on what's acceptable and what's not don't mean shit if it's going against the grain of the MUD. If a group says that doing action x is fine, and when someone imitates it and does so it ends up getting them in trouble, do you think saying "Oh, the guys on the board said it was okay so it must be!" will save you from being in trouble? It won't.

If you've got some sort of problem with that then go cry to someone who cares about how big mean Carnage offered some sound advice that's never going to fail.

[jmordetsky]

Woa. Hold up. I meant I Have Steel should...not you. No offense meant homey.

Lets all take a deep breath and have hug time.

[Kivan]

Yeah. We're not and you should. Thought I'd hope the imms will see it in the same light.

Nowhere in my post did I claim to be. I simply said that it was best to mail the MUD.

Our opinions on what's acceptable and what's not don't mean shit if it's going against the grain of the MUD. If a group says that doing action x is fine, and when someone imitates it and does so it ends up getting them in trouble, do you think saying "Oh, the guys on the board said it was okay so it must be!" will save you from being in trouble? It won't.

If you've got some sort of problem with that then go cry to someone who cares about how big mean Carnage offered some sound advice that's never going to fail.

This is a prime example of why you should re-read something before you type out a nasty flame. Or better yet, dont flame, just be a bit more constructive. You misread his sentence.

[Lasakar]

If we have most of the discussions in the Bard's Barrel, we all would know how good the Brawl code is really.... :wink:

[Cenghiz]

How? I remember someone tried doing this to me.. I just HIT! all the time he came back to the room, 'cause I was waiting for him.. Does subdue ignore the movement lag?
And also I remember he tried subduing me failing all the time. Because I had the skill subdue a little bit trained.. Isn't subdue the defence against subdue again?
I feel curious. Tell me about the rabbits now.

[Agent_137]

this ain't a H&S. The combat code isn't gonna be perfect.

Thus, a deeper question looms:

Should the immortals of Armageddon be putting emphasis on improving combat code or placing more emphasis on other areas of RP?

Granted, a beautiful and intricate and flawless combat code WOULD be conducive to great RP and much harder to abuse, but it costs manpower that could be spent elsewhere, such as RPTs and HRPTs and whatever else all the imms do.

Personally, I'd like to see a better combat code. Coming from a semi-H&S (Simutronic's Dragonrealms) I love the RP intensity in armageddon but the combat leaves something to be desired.  I love how the hits aren't overly descriptive, leaving plenty of room for emoting, and I don't even mind not having control over when I swing my sword. But as I peruse the boards I notice many OOC challenges when it comes to being a fighter. Different ranges in one room would be nice (melee, pole, missle).

But I digress...the heart of this post is the question in bold ^^^^.


*edit*
P.S. Of course there's always a middle ground to find...and indeed they tend to be the best...but the question is still poignant.

[Callisto]

This is a prime example of why you should re-read something before you type out a nasty flame. Or better yet, dont flame, just be a bit more constructive. You misread his sentence.

That wasn't a flame.

[Carnage]

Woa. Hold up. I meant I Have Steel should...not you. No offense meant homey.

Lets all take a deep breath and have hug time.

Ah, I apologize then.

[I Have Steel]

Ok, say two people are fighting.

Player a flees, but comes right back in, subdues player b and punches them while subdued.

They flee again, come back, subdue, and punch... Repeat until opponent is out.

Is that considered acceptable, or is it KICK!WHAM!YADAMNTWINK!!! ...?

Mail the MUD. Quirk, Clegane, Spawnloser, Mansa, John, Twilight, and jmordetsky aren't the ones who consider what's acceptable or not.

Actually...

I posted it here because it's a general discussion forum. And I asked the question to generate discussion as it was on my mind at the time.

I'd have posted on the ask the staff forum if I was wanting a solid answer. But I posted here to get a general idea on how the playerbase sees it.

:wink:

[waroth]

I think it's crap myself.  No way in hell I would be standing there as you ran off and watching you, would I let you run back at me and grab me without whacking you with whatever I had first.  Sounds twinkish enough to fill with cream, package and sell in pairs to me.


Waroth

[drunkendwarf]

I agree completely...twinky.

There's nothing worse than someone who abuses the kill lag. I once tried to kill someone out sleeping..I was foolish enough to emote sneaking quietly up on them, which sends the echo to the victim's player and *BAM* he's awake and sprinting towards his kank. I cut him off and start to smack the shit out of his unarmed ass...so he flees..runs back INTO the room, jumps on his kank and bolts before my kill delay is gone. Without that kank, his character would have been very dead, and he knew it. This sounds about like the same crap.

How about the reverse? You're trying to kill someone, they flee..you chase, they try to subdue when you run in...flee when they fail, you chase..they subdue as you run in, process repeats until the subduer finally manages one, and knocks the poor sap out with a wicked hit. What are thoughts on that one?

Or another one...player X leads player Y into a room, so player Y can snap off a quick subdue on player Z with no movement lag, and absolutely no warning to player Z, at which point player X proceeds to smack the shit out of player Z. What do ya'll think? I just lost a character to that one a couple weeks back.


Anyone think armed people should get a free hit in on someone trying to subdue them? Or anyone think of SOME way to make all this a bit more realistic?

[Mr.Camel]

Put a delay before subdue is pulled off?

[Quirk]

Anyone think armed people should get a free hit in on someone trying to subdue them? Or anyone think of SOME way to make all this a bit more realistic?

Have subdue take into account the same factors as would be taken into account if trying to hit someone barehanded, and make it as hard to subdue an armed person as to punch them.

Quirk

[Echo]

You raise an interesting discussion here, but I think people are too quick to jump on the 'twink' wagon.

Think about combat for a second and all the factors you as the combatant take into consideration. First you're thinking about how skilled you are as a fighter, are you confidant enough to engage in melee? If so then you are depending on certain skills to aid you in this regard. (i.e. I spar all the time and I beat on my Sarge even, I must be good!) Inherently the use of these skills is not twinkish. Kill lag is something both parties suffer from, similarly with kick/disarm/bash/subdue...  When you choose to employ one of these tactics you accept that you will be somewhat vulnerable for a time. By that same token you know that if someone tries to kick you they too will be vulnerable, just as in a real fight. Is it OOC to exploit such things?

Absolutely not... If someone comes charging into a bar and attacks person A they should have the opportunity to respond, that response can be in the form of running for their lives... Or it could be to get far enough out of the way of the swords to push off the bar and lurch into a tackle of their attacker(do they have to emote those four lines and die in the process of their response or simply respond by fleeing, running back in and TRYING to grab the person). Hence it is necessary for the attacker to suffer lag. In that moment you can stay and fight or run and hide. If you run off without an emote is that twinkish? I'd say no, it's difficult to emote when swords are hacking into your flesh and realistically your first response would be to get the hell out rather than to spend time finding the words to express to everyone in the room how you're feeling at the moment. *SLASH* Oh... *SLASH* my... *SLASH* krath... *SLASH* Tek... *SLASH*... Help... *SLASH* me! *dead*

Unless of course you felt confidant enough to stay and then the emotes start to fly.

My point is that when you decide to engage in combat you have to consider all of these factors, so if one person uses one of them to their advantage I wouldn't cry foul... I would remember that I didn't have to get into that fight to begin with. (I chose to stay and take my life in my own hands and if the other person kills me then I know what to look out for the next time.)

DrunkenDwarf and 'I have Steel' speak of examples I feel I was involved in so I'll speak to them directly. For both I'll say we're talking about street-fighting which is often quick and dirty. Perhaps I didn't emote immediately after subduing, but how much MORE time do you need to SPAM flee rather than emoting how you've been tackled to the ground or grabbed forcefully by something far stronger and larger than you are?

DrunkenDwarf I will remind you that you didn't have to continually follow the retreating character but you did because you wanted to kill him. As such that character did what was in his power to survive, grab and smash. Your successive flees to break subdue made the seen rather realistic in my eyes as we were engaged in a life or death scuffle... You clearly did not fear being grabbed and held long enough to be crushed. Is that twinkish for not showing that fear and continuing to engage?

I Have Steel, I will remind you that it was YOU who returned to try and 'finish' the job. You got grabbed by something much larger than you and smashed. Keep in mind that even though you spar ALL the time as your aba would suggest that does not negate the fact that the thing you were fighting has a hand larger than your entire head and stands up to 4 times your height.

Is it Twinkish to try to solo a bahamet or a Mek because you feel your skills are high enough? I would say yes, that's insanity. Clearly this creature is far larger and can do far more damage should it get you in its clutches... But the fear of the "clutches" is lessoned because those are NPCs that can't 'grab' you or 'pin' you down or react intuitively to your attacks. So all you think about is 'melee skills'. How many Gith have fleed and thrown spears as they retreated? None. I like how they throw them first, but I'd love to see them keep tossing them as they ran off. Or run after those who try to peg them with arrows.

I believe it's a matter of context. If someone is running around and trying to wrestle you to the ground and you don't want to fight like that... THEN DON'T KEEP COMING AFTER THEM. Peg them with arrows or spears or go get a group of people to help you.  Otherwise your option is to keep going after them and annihilate their unarmed ass as best you can....

To conclude, not everyone is an uber fast typest I understand, but until we can depend on the subduee not spamming flee until they break then the subduer is going to try to smash them before they get away.(let's remember that the subdue is not a given, it fails quite frequently leaving the subduer vulnerable. Also, even if it does succeed the subduee has a chance to flee before the attacker has gotten out of lag) Are you upset because you died, yes... Was it twinkish, No. If you're looking for a fair fight, stick to sparring.

[X-D]

Yup, I don't know how many times I've stated there is TONS of strategy in combat in arm, specialy when these people complain about the auto-combat.

Also, the flee come back subdue, I have no problem with it currently, because that is The only way an unarmed person can attempt to grapple somebody attacking them.
I consider it a workaround, and like when you end a sparring session the person has NOT left the room but just put enough room between him and the other to attempt another grab.

Also, one must not think of things as rooms outdoors, if this was outdoors, the one char simply ran farther down the road, he did not "leave" the room.

[Anonymous]

Any interation of combat which boils down to 'who can type their command faster' bums me out.  And that's what flee ; backstab||subdue ; repeat ends up becoming.  Who can type their command fastest when one enters the other's room.

Fleeing and returning to subdue multiple times just simply does not take into account that after the first try most targets are going to have their sharp things out and will be doing their best to stick them in the subduer.