Subdue

[wardor]

How is it possible to subdue someone and keep attacking them?

[spawnloser]

It's not.

[mansa]

Subdue is coded the same way as Archery is.  You can't be in combat to do it.  However, if you had a buddy, you could subdue one guy, hold his arms back, while your buddy takes a few shots to the victim's stomach.  Sounds like a plan, stan.

[wardor]

Nope.... You can flee while engaged.  Come back subdue and hit your opponent while he cannot hit you or defend.

[UnderSeven]

It seems to me subduing someone would be harder to do than actually hitting them.  I imagine for instance the fight in princess bride where the big guy and the little guy are going at it and the little guy can't hurt the big guy but the big guy can't even lay a finger on the little guy.  Anyway, as I recall the big guy tries to grab him, now to grab someone and hold them you need to use what.. Both arms.. right?

So if you can't hit someone (meaning simply swining and connecting) with one hand.   How can you justify being able to grab someone with both arms.  Seems to be if this skill doesn't take into account defense, it really needs to start.

[Tamarin]

I -fully- agree.  Either make subdue -subdue only-....or make defense count into it.  One or the other, but not both.  Its simply unblanced and completely unfair.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I -fully- agree.  Either make subdue -subdue only-....or make defense count into it.  One or the other, but not both.  Its simply unblanced and completely unfair.

Subdue is fine the way it is.  Defense does count into it.  The reason someone might find it easier to subdue somebody than to hit them in unarmed combat probably has to do with the fact that they are better at the subdue skill and/or have a higher strength than they are at hitting somebody with their fist.

However, subduing somebody is the easy part.  Even if you've got them, you need comparatively good combat ability.

Go and try subduing an unprepared magicker, sitting down and drinking an ale.  Then try and subdue some freaking bad-ass warrior lumbering around in heavy armor.  Once you've subdued them, type hit.  You'll see what I mean.

If you're a good fighter, your chance to break free will be higher, you'll be harder to subdue (but a half-giant is still going to get you almost every time), and when somebody types hit, you'll take less hit points and stun damage.

Once I played a 1 day half-giant burglar.  I grabbed a magicker and tried to knock him out.  I succeeded very well.  Then I had this half-giant magicker.  A totally bad-ass desert elf was trying to kill me.  I grabbed him and tried to knock him out.  It didn't go very well for me, no it didn't.  I also had a 1 day half-giant trying to knock out a five day (these are estimates) ranger (success), and a 7 day half-giant trying to knock out a ranger that was probably 30-50 days old (FAILURE).

So if you find yourself a victim of subdue, then you probably aren't as bad-ass as you think you are.  So sorry, try again.

[Tamarin]

I think the issue here is that some people are using subdue and hit in this manner to twink out on a fight.  Flee, come back in, and try and subdue a prepared fighter with drawn weapons who, realistically, would just attack you the second you get anywhere close enough him to grab him.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I think the issue here is that some people are using subdue and hit in this manner to twink out on a fight.  Flee, come back in, and try and subdue a prepared fighter with drawn weapons who, realistically, would just attack you the second you get anywhere close enough him to grab him.

Like much twinking, it isn't a very good idea code-wise.  If this happens to you, I suggest you simply cease using all commands that will cause lag (kick, bash, disarm) and attack your opponent the second he enters, before his movement lag wears off.  Twinks will be twinks, and there's no need to water down subdue just because of their annoyance.

[Sanvean]

I think the issue here is that some people are using subdue and hit in this manner to twink out on a fight. Flee, come back in, and try and subdue a prepared fighter with drawn weapons who, realistically, would just attack you the second you get anywhere close enough him to grab him.

If someone is doing this consistently, please feel free to drop an email with the details to the mud account.

[Twilight]

In reply to Evil Roe Slade, I have had this happen to me:

Player A enters.
Player B attacks.
Player A flees.
Player A re-enters.
Player A subdues Player B.
Player B's kill wait state wears off.

It was occuring enough that I knew exactly what was happening as Player B.  I know the other character had the flee skill, which problably helped.

[drunkendwarf]

And to wrap up your question there Wardor, once they've attacked they're no longer subduing you....but that first hit can be a doozy, esp. squaring off with a half-giant (which above all other races, can TWINK out subdue something nasty...)

[wardor]

That sounds like taking advantage of code to me.. If the person gets no defense on the first hit you might as well be unconcious.

[Callisto]

The problem isn't with subdue skill, the problem is with the unarmed code.

An unarmed hit does a staggering amount of stun damage, more so in my experience then a mace or a club. When I have a character with less then 95 stun, I will never engage in unarmed combat unless IC absolutely demands it, since just two glances will often knock the character out for almost a day. In HRPT's, people fear unarmed "units" more then armed ones, simply because a PC can take a sword to the head doing frightening damage, but a single punch will knock them out for IC days.

I've been clocked pretty good a few of times in my life, I mean square, side of the head, full fisted punches, and I've seen no small number of other people beaten by others with fists, people who carry out such actions on a regular basis for reasons that aren't terribly relevant right now, and I have never seen someone go down in one or two hits to the head. Even sucker punches rarely do more then break a nose or bruise a rib. Dizzy? sure, but knocked out cold? Don't count on it.

This isn't to say it CAN'T and HAS NOT happened, just that it does not happen as often as people might think. Boxers often go upwards of four rounds in the ring, taking a lot of punishment the whole time, before it's to the point one of them can't get up, never mind a genuine knock out. "Pit fighters", which I lump in with the various fighting organizations such as Super Brawl and the like, take knees, kicks, elbows, fists, all manner of brutal punishment with only a rare instance of someone getting knocked out cold - this is WITHOUT helmets or protection of any sort. Considering Armageddon's people are supposed to be all around tougher, often wearing at least light protection, I think it would be even more rare on Zalanthas.
Armageddon's unarmed stun code is unrealistic to the point of being an absurd joke. It needs to be toned down, and once that is toned down, subdue and hit will no longer be an issue outside of half-giants and possibly muls.

If you want something fix, ask for the unarmed skill and it's related stun code to be fixed, not subdue, it isn't broken, it is just the door to exploiting a bit of unrealistic code.

[wardor]

Also... When you are released from subdue and you are armed your opponent should not get a free fucking hit.  That doesn't make sense to me.

[Anarchy]

Simple way to fix this is to give people with draw weapons the advantage when trying to resist subdue.

"Twink" subdue Warrior
"Twink" hits warrior, but doesn't knock out.
Warrior draws weapons
"twink" flees, renters, tries to subdue

A roll is made, if the warrior's weapon and offence skill is higher then "Twinks" subdue, warrior scores one-two critial hits on "Twink" - before normal subdue is made. If scores are equal, then a normal hit is made, if subdue is higher, no damage in the attempt to subdue.

Makes sense? In other words make it sucidal to subdue a person with weapons drawn. because if someone comes running at me and i have somthing sharp, im going to hold it out for them to impale themselves on.

[wardor]

Completely agree with Anarchy.