Fiddle dee diddle

[LindseyBalboa]

Someone on Discord who doesn't use the GDB that often brought up a point about minstrels/bards/instruments:

Fiddles have been removed from the game. Guitars, it seems, were nearly removed.

On one hand they would be anachronistic in real life. On the other, we have magic, elves, and silt horrors.

A huge positive to having fiddles or guitars is the immersion factor. An instrument you've played, or heard, is something

that can be easily visualized through text.

Are there real negatives anyone has for bringing them back to the game?

Or can we just fiddle away while the city-states burn as requested?

[Trevalyan]

If you're in a position to try, custom craft. Bonus points if you talk to people IG who remember when fiddles were a thing.

Guitars are absolutely fine in Zalanthas and it would be more immersion-breaking to remove them at this point.

[dumbstruck]

god yes please.

make bards great again. 

[DesertT]

This is the response I received from Staff when I submitted a custom craft double bass:

Yo, it is me again - resident CC pain in the ass Redacted. I love the design however I am not sure about having very western, modern (in a very relative sense) instruments coming out of Red Storm. It irks me enough that there are violins and guitars floating about - but the former are likely holdovers from the very distant past, associated with high culture and the latter is because otherwise nobody would be able to play wonderwall. Could you reimagine this as something more exotic? I know that sounds asinine to say, but much like Dark Sun before us, we think a lot of the game's feel comes from plumbing non-european fantasy and culture for inspiration. Maybe something like a big kora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kora_(instrument))?

And then:

I understand where you're coming from with the situation regarding banjos - mostly things like violins and guitars are associated (with the former) with pre-dragon cultural remnants and (with the latter) Tan Muark and northern culture. But the fact is that the game is very old and has had many hands at the wheel who have each made different calls - under different degrees of creative control - over what is appropriate. As admin for indies I need to make a call on what is appropriate for a Red Stormer musician and what feel we're looking for with the musical lore of the game - the nautical theme of red storm is undeniable - but it isn't Age of Sail piracy, it is still post-apocalyptic dust-punk/dark sun and having an upright big double bass to me, feels too jazz band.

[dumbstruck]

This is the response I received from Staff when I submitted a custom craft double bass:

Yo, it is me again - resident CC pain in the ass Redacted. I love the design however I am not sure about having very western, modern (in a very relative sense) instruments coming out of Red Storm. It irks me enough that there are violins and guitars floating about - but the former are likely holdovers from the very distant past, associated with high culture and the latter is because otherwise nobody would be able to play wonderwall. Could you reimagine this as something more exotic? I know that sounds asinine to say, but much like Dark Sun before us, we think a lot of the game's feel comes from plumbing non-european fantasy and culture for inspiration. Maybe something like a big kora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kora_(instrument))?

And then:

I understand where you're coming from with the situation regarding banjos - mostly things like violins and guitars are associated (with the former) with pre-dragon cultural remnants and (with the latter) Tan Muark and northern culture. But the fact is that the game is very old and has had many hands at the wheel who have each made different calls - under different degrees of creative control - over what is appropriate. As admin for indies I need to make a call on what is appropriate for a Red Stormer musician and what feel we're looking for with the musical lore of the game - the nautical theme of red storm is undeniable - but it isn't Age of Sail piracy, it is still post-apocalyptic dust-punk/dark sun and having an upright big double bass to me, feels too jazz band.

But the double bass isn't still and already documented as the instrument of choice for one of the subgroups in the primary group credited with representing musical culture IC, and even in artwork on the main documentation page for one of the great merchant houses currently still. :/

(that said, it definitely sucks for your enjoyment that your instrument didn't have a chance while they were already planning on redacting currently existing instruments)

[mansa]

We should be able to talk about theme.

...much like Dark Sun before us, we think a lot of the game's feel comes from plumbing non-european fantasy and culture for inspiration.

...mostly things like violins and guitars are associated (with the former) with pre-dragon cultural remnants and (with the latter) Tan Muark and northern culture.

But the fact is that the game is very old and has had many hands at the wheel who have each made different calls - under different degrees of creative control - over what is appropriate.

As admin for indies I need to make a call on what is appropriate for a Red Stormer musician and what feel we're looking for with the musical lore of the game - the nautical theme of red storm is undeniable - but it isn't Age of Sail piracy, it is still post-apocalyptic dust-punk/dark sun


To me, theme is something extremely important to maintain, otherwise the world slips and becomes something of a joke - like Azeroth in World of Warcraft.  The expansion that brought spaceships and spacegoats ruined the theme of the worldbuilding - and changed it so that the fantastical became dull.

Theme sets the boundaries of our playspace.  And as human beings, we naturally try and push against all boundaries, because it is in our nature.


Regarding musical instruments -> like language, we don't want a fiddle, we want to portray the image of Nero playing the fiddle as Rome burns, or we want to portray us in an epic battle against the devil for our soul.  I feel we want to share that image and feeling, rather than the particulars of a specific instrument.   Because we can simply make a new instrument that is exactly the same as a fiddle, and rename it liffdle, and nobody would ever use it.   A word is not just a word, and an instrument is not just an instrument.

[Riev]

I had a number of my custom crafted items changed to 'fit the theme'. My fiddles became rebabs, but my guitars largely stayed. I think ouds changed, instead?

Lutes and guitars seemed largely untouched, but the smaller strings like fiddles and ouds seem to have been given the anachronistic toss-out.

So, I would suggest NOT custom crafting a fiddle just to get past it and instead find out why we can't have a fiddle in a pre-bronze age middle east.

[Kestria]

Someone on Discord who doesn't use the GDB that often brought up a point about minstrels/bards/instruments:

Fiddles have been removed from the game. Guitars, it seems, were nearly removed.

On one hand they would be anachronistic in real life. On the other, we have magic, elves, and silt horrors.

A huge positive to having fiddles or guitars is the immersion factor. An instrument you've played, or heard, is something

that can be easily visualized through text.

Are there real negatives anyone has for bringing them back to the game?

Or can we just fiddle away while the city-states burn as requested?

Violins were 'de-evolved' down into Rebab's, which is a more primitive version of them.  I believe staff thought violins were too advanced for the game setting, hence the de-evolution.

[Jarvis]

Please for the love of god give me a hurdy gurdy

[Trevalyan]

Please for the love of god give me a hurdy gurdy

I will never stop playing it at you.

[LindseyBalboa]

Regarding musical instruments -> like language, we don't want a fiddle, we want to portray the image of Nero playing the fiddle as Rome burns, or we want to portray us in an epic battle against the devil for our soul.  I feel we want to share that image and feeling, rather than the particulars of a specific instrument.   Because we can simply make a new instrument that is exactly the same as a fiddle, and rename it liffdle, and nobody would ever use it.   A word is not just a word, and an instrument is not just an instrument.

+1

[dumbstruck]

Someone on Discord who doesn't use the GDB that often brought up a point about minstrels/bards/instruments:

Fiddles have been removed from the game. Guitars, it seems, were nearly removed.

On one hand they would be anachronistic in real life. On the other, we have magic, elves, and silt horrors.

A huge positive to having fiddles or guitars is the immersion factor. An instrument you've played, or heard, is something

that can be easily visualized through text.

Are there real negatives anyone has for bringing them back to the game?

Or can we just fiddle away while the city-states burn as requested?

Violins were 'de-evolved' down into Rebab's, which is a more primitive version of them.  I believe staff thought violins were too advanced for the game setting, hence the de-evolution.

I wouldn't mind it so much if they had at least changed all the documentation to match it. I still wouldn't ever engage with a rebab because the instrument means nothing to me and holds no value to me. But I at least wouldn't be actively upset by it as much or as often when I think about one of the things I loved being just taken away arbitrarily and not even being cleaned up behind the mess its disappearance left.

But more to the point, for me:

Regarding musical instruments -> like language, we don't want a fiddle, we want to portray the image of Nero playing the fiddle as Rome burns, or we want to portray us in an epic battle against the devil for our soul.  I feel we want to share that image and feeling, rather than the particulars of a specific instrument.   Because we can simply make a new instrument that is exactly the same as a fiddle, and rename it liffdle, and nobody would ever use it.   A word is not just a word, and an instrument is not just an instrument.

+1

Literally everything said here. Sure, you replaced it with a rebab arbitrarily. How many people were engaging with fiddles or violins? And how many even show the slightest interest in whatever the hell a rebab is? Pretty sure the above is EXACTLY WHY.

[Armaddict]

To be fair, there's a significant portion of players who don't care what the instrument is.  It's either spam that's to be avoided at the time, or something enjoyable.  It isn't just automatically flavor for the room that is particularly valuable.  That's not to say bards suck.  That is to say that the same triviality over what the instrument is cuts both ways.

[Inks]

There are banjos too. When do I get my synth keytar?


(I don't care what instrument you are using they are all essentially the same and it is based on your RP to increase immershuns without spamming the room annoyingly)


Please remember as a bard (especially a non singing bard) you are doing an important role as flavor and not the center of attention so don't be a diva. Also unless it is a competition or something I prefer to keep sung songs to 4 verses, if you pre prepare said verses don't just spam it all out in one go, people won't read it and it makes no sense to sing 8 verses at the speed of light, as well as onlookers being unable to RP.

Follow these tips to be a true professional bard.

[Trevalyan]

There are banjos too. When do I get my synth keytar?


(I don't care what instrument you are using they are all essentially the same and it is based on your RP to increase immershuns without spamming the room annoyingly)


Please remember as a bard (especially a non singing bard) you are doing an important role as flavor and not the center of attention so don't be a diva. Also unless it is a competition or something I prefer to keep sung songs to 4 verses, if you pre prepare said verses don't just spam it all out in one go, people won't read it and it makes no sense to sing 8 verses at the speed of light, as well as onlookers being unable to RP.

Follow these tips to be a true professional bard.

I thought putting out was the #1 tip to being a professional bard.