Feedback on Idea Wanted: Karma Boosted Class or Subclass

[zealus]

The only problem I see with this is the same I see with magicker-class Karma spending: It encourages 1-2 months of careful play, while you wait for your "Investment" to recover. I already see this in magicker classes, and I'd be very sad if this also extended to mundane classes. Otherwise, as someone who is very bad^tm at grinding: I do like the option to start higher every X time, but I'd really really like it to be available to 0 karma players too.

[Delirium]

Fix the main classes first. Especially Fighter. There will be even less reason to choose Fighter over Raider/Enforcer.

My opinion on adding more subs without fixing and adjusting the old subs is already pretty well expanded on in this thread.

Many subguilds are uneven now and either too weak/strong in comparison to others of similar cost.

This just seems like a way for people to play flash in the pan characters and will have zero appeal to those who play patiently. If staff wants more of that, then this is a way to achieve it, but the best stories tend to unfold slowly and evolve naturally over time.

[Armaddict]

If there are karma sub guilds beyond magickers, I think they should be more like 'Fallout'-esque perks. They can also play a bit to the theme of the game, being in some cases mutations or other kinds of 'Blasted Wasteland' things like:
--'Quick Learner' that allows you to gain skills quicker or gain 'more skill' with a failure, boost to the wisdom stat at stat roll, negative to endurance. (2 Karma)
--Indomitable' that makes bashing you/kicking you more difficult. (1 Karma)
--'Thick Skinned', granting some natural armor points to your skin. (1 Karma)
--Psionically Dampened, making it more difficult for you to use psionics, but also to be affected by the psionics of others. (1 Karma)
--Magickally Dampened, same with magick. As this might be often chosen, start relationship to the land as 'very bad', so their health gain/stamina gain is also lowered and affected. (2 Karma)
--Infravision, you can see at night. (1 Karma)
--Wasteland Wanderer, you lose less stamina when you are in the wastes on foot and have master direction sense. (2 Karma)
--Freakishly Large, you get a bonus to strength and endurance when you roll your stats, a negative to agility and wisdom, and can wield two handed weapons in one hand. (2 Karma)
--Freakishly Fast, you get a bonus to agility when you roll stats, a negative to endurance. Your running speed is faster than other people. (2 Karma)
--Second Sight, you get a bonus to dodge incoming attacks and against backstab/darts/arrows/surprise attacks. Your walk/run speed is slower than other people. (2 Karma)
--Natural Born Leader, PCs that follow you gain a bonus to defense, you have a bonus to rescue/guard those that are following you. Your own defense maximum is lowered. (1 Karma)
--Natural Born Killer, you gain a natural bonus to damage/critical chance and offense and chance to hit with backstab and sap. You are also easier to hit, have a lower natural armor, and have a very small chance of triggering 'Mul Rage'. (2 Karma)

To +1 this in some form, I've been a proponent of a traits/perks/advantage/disadvantage addition to character creation for some time, whether that comes along with other changes or not.  More variety from character to character, hard choices, are what make distinct differences from play to play.  'The grind' is less of a problem of 'I'm not good', and more a problem of 'this is repetitive', because ultimately they always lead to the same place.  Making more distinct destinations for skilled characters is, in my opinion, the best way to make 'the grind' better, not simply bypassing the grind as a whole.  The whole problem I have with new classes is just how much they overlap; going from scout to raider, or infiltrator to miscreant, is not altogether that different.

Endless replayability in RPG's doesn't come from re-experiencing the story again.  It comes from having new tools, new perspectives, new options.  Anything to make one character to the next a more defined difference is good, and a healthy amount of -viable- perks, subguilds, and other additions to foundational classes or backbones is the solution in my mind.

I don't think boosting really solves much, it just bandaids a formula by trying to remove it from the equation, rather than making that equation draw more interesting lines.

[Brokkr]

New traits and such are also sort of off the table at this point.  That simply is not what we are working on right now.

[th3kaiser]

This just seems like a way for people to play flash in the pan characters and will have zero appeal to those who play patiently. If staff wants more of that, then this is a way to achieve it, but the best stories tend to unfold slowly and evolve naturally over time.

It's all a matter of perspective. I'm not currently playing and haven't for a couple of years as my free-time has decreased. This might have a few of us who aren't around pop back in to join your patiently building stories for a cameo.

[Wday]

I like this idea only because I understand some are busy in life and can not grind as much. BUT I also know this means even less will be put into those characters to flesh them out.  In my mind I picture this working out much like sargeant role calls, One will start the game buff train a few times and vanish to there is finally a RPT they can log on with.

Sidenote! I am not saying everyone in role calls does that!  I truly do not know your PC's goals and daily actions towards plots! I am only assuming from some of MY own point of view type playing and it is bad to assume I know.

[Nao]

I share the concern that these +1 or +2 PCs will become the new standard. In the end it just raises the bar of what is considered "the required level to be playable/effective/whatever" and not really change anything about the grind. We measure our PCs against other PCs, not critters or NPCs. With the new classes there's not much grind required anymore to kill most common and even uncommon critters, but we still need the feel to grind to be better than other PCs.

Then there's the general issue with anything that spends karma is an incentive not to play while you wait for karma to regenerate.

[Delirium]

This just seems like a way for people to play flash in the pan characters and will have zero appeal to those who play patiently. If staff wants more of that, then this is a way to achieve it, but the best stories tend to unfold slowly and evolve naturally over time.

It's all a matter of perspective. I'm not currently playing and haven't for a couple of years as my free-time has decreased. This might have a few of us who aren't around pop back in to join your patiently building stories for a cameo.

As long as you're not playing a lunatic who forces artificial conflict and puts an axe through those stories just for kicks.

[MeTekillot]

I think there's a place for conflict driving lunatics among the careful plotters. There just aren't many tools available to them besides PKing. But that's not the point of this thread.

[Delirium]

It kind of is, because being able to jump in the game as a buffed up class with PK capabilities is going to be extremely appealing to those types of people, and it gets extremely tiresome to try and run plots with multiple factions only to have some day 1 character shank the only PC from faction B you've been able to find and work/fight/both with.

[Patuk]

If professional murderhobos get to have the karma necessary for that, the system is (even more of) a sham anyhow.

[Ender]

I too am concerned this would just become the new normal every new PC is expected to be, and does more to discourage players from starting fresh.

I do think a lot of old sub-classes need to be looked at and updated to better fit with the current classes rather than newer sub-classes be added in that will become the defacto subclass everyone will want to take instead.  It makes it seem like all the work in the older subclasses has gone to waste when they could be redone to better fit and flesh out characters.

The biggest problem with raising the starting line is the finishing line becomes a lot closer, and PCs WILL burn out when there is nowhere left to go.  Removing subguilds will also mean less ways for them to interact with the game world and removing more finishing lines for those characters to reach.  You'll be stuck with a lot of high stat'd combat characters with no utility that will get bored very quickly.

[MeTekillot]

The biggest problem with raising the starting line is the finishing line becomes a lot closer, and PCs WILL burn out when there is nowhere left to go. 

Open up more options for players to play with, then

[Delirium]

The biggest problem with raising the starting line is the finishing line becomes a lot closer, and PCs WILL burn out when there is nowhere left to go. 

Open up more options for players to play with, then

Like what? Being more powerful isn't the point of the game and can actively harm the gameplay experience for others.

[LindseyBalboa]

who cares if it's a new standard for a few players. it's limited by karma already.

if i have 3 karma i can go play a shadow walker or a nilazi or a krathi destruction every 91 days.

this would just make it more likely people would take a 5d played mundane out of chargen instead of a gick.

if it helps a lot of the worriers, i've played (and seen others reference this issue in this thread) a few sponsored
characters and having some pvp skills up will not make you the equal of a pc who has grinded for those skills. at all.
it is a head start, but a few days played is needed still to even start balancing the character out for how good they
seem like they should be.

if someone is going to wait 2-3 months to put in an app for a boosted sub guild they're going to do it regardless, and they
were probably doing this for karma-gated roles already. i could definitely build a better combat character than any initial sponsored
combat role i've seen, with 2 hours/day in 2 rl months if that was my only concern.

this just makes it a little more fun of a game for players that don't have that time.

[mansa]

My feelings are...

If you compare the playtime required to be on par with the "head start" class, and that playtime required is longer than the karma timer for the class, the incentive is to not play.


Example:
K2 special class gives you journeyman / advanced across the board, and non-special class takes an approximation of 15 days playtime (360 hours) to match those skill proficiencies, it would be smarter to wait until the timer reset.



I am of the mindset that there shouldn't be a k2 and k1 class, but a singular "experienced class", that gives a maximum of 15% additional starting proficiency.
If that class works out and there isn't an issue, then look at adding an even more advanced class at that time.  Test the uptake of the new classes and how they effect the playspace and decide from there.

Make the new testing class 2 karma.  See if it works.   Make changes a year from now.

[mattrious]

At the end of the day you're not going to make everyone happy. An additional thought I had, was that this change would also alter the number of active magick wielders in the game. If you search the general discussion forum for keyword 'magick' -- you will find a slough of threads of folks complaining about magickers not being scary to there is too many magick users in game, etc.

When you implement a change like this, players will gravitate to other concepts and ideas for mundane PCs. In turn, you'll have less magick types in the world.

[Barsook]

I too am concerned this would just become the new normal every new PC is expected to be, and does more to discourage players from starting fresh.

I do think a lot of old sub-classes need to be looked at and updated to better fit with the current classes rather than newer sub-classes be added in that will become the defacto subclass everyone will want to take instead.  It makes it seem like all the work in the older subclasses has gone to waste when they could be redone to better fit and flesh out characters.

The biggest problem with raising the starting line is the finishing line becomes a lot closer, and PCs WILL burn out when there is nowhere left to go.  Removing subguilds will also mean less ways for them to interact with the game world and removing more finishing lines for those characters to reach.  You'll be stuck with a lot of high stat'd combat characters with no utility that will get bored very quickly.

+1

[Lotion]

I did not read the whole thread yet (just the OP) but as someone who has very strong opinions on subclasses I think sacrificing having a subguild to increase the starting skills of a main guild is inherently antithetical to at least two existing guilds. Raider and Enforcer were both designed with the intent that a longer lived character would be able to branch a bunch of high utility skills. Sacrificing an extremely valuable source of high utility skills (subguilds) in exchange for a higher starting point generally invalidates the entire concept of Raider and Enforcer while also denying them the absurd amount of utility they can obtain from their subguilds.

Sacrificing the existence of a subguild in order to have a higher starting point only makes sense for a very short term character that could die very quickly. As karma currently exists the concept of spending karma for a very short term character that could die very quickly is absurdly foolish. Because of the harsh penalty inherent in going to zero spendable karma (unable to pick the subguilds which are almost exclusively better) players are heavily punished for dying on a character they spent all of their spendable karma on before regenerating back up to one.

The existence of subguild none alleviates this somewhat by allowing players to roll out subguild none at zero karma and then picking a superior subguild after regenerating their karma but forcing players to play with a subguild for sometimes up to 30 days is still a very harsh mechanical penalty for dying while still in "karma jail".

[Brytta Léofa]

I did not read the whole thread yet (just the OP) but as someone who has very strong opinions on subclasses I think sacrificing having a subguild to increase the starting skills of a main guild is inherently antithetical to at least two existing guilds. Raider and Enforcer

So, lumbergh.gif, I disagree on this. Haven't played an enforcer, but I played about 20 days on a raider with a magick sub. I never ever cast a spell, so all my skills were main class. I never felt blocked by missing skills. Like, it would have been nice if I could bandage or make arrows? But I didn't run out of things to do. I could go almost anywhere and fight almost anything and that was enough for me.

Ranger and enforcer get so much more on the skill list than warrior did that in my mind they already have a subclass built in.

(This may be a difference in play style. Anecdata etc.)

On the other hand, I'd make your argument about fighter and possibly the other non-sneak city classes. Without direction sense and arguably climb, you can't play outside. Without stealth, you're at a PvP disadvantage in the city. Fighter definitely needs a subclass.

[Brytta Léofa]

Brokkr, do you have figures right at hand on karma distribution of active players? Like what % of recent logins have 0/1/2/3 karma?

[Barsook]

It would be nice if this can be used for clans to bypass the Recruit year for those that don't want to deal with grind without spec apping.

[Dresan]

hmm.

Well let me begin by saying that as someone who loves pure mundane characters, it would be nice to see more incentive for playing them. Especially for someone like me who has limited time and patience to join a clan which in my opnion is where most of the incentive for playing mundanes exist.

Nothing against people who like magic classes, I even support the idea of bringing back full mages classes, despite how limted the interactions options become for my character with ALL the mages in game. That said, while more cool magick options are added, miscreants got nerfed and many cool mundane skill options for subclasses that even I would enjoy playing happen to touched classes. And that is not even getting into the mundane grind vs casting an easily trained spell and hitting like a mul, or the fact that good roleplaying dictates a mundanes should be shitting themseles every time a magicker yawns. So again, yeah its nice to see mundanes being given some more love and promoted as a more tempting option to play rather than just another magick option.

Now as to the proposed idea here are some thoughts:

If i wanted to play an enforcer, it is very difficult for me to anything other than bounty hunter. Because max sap is unique to this class and the only reasonable way of getting it is to pick a class subclass that gives you access to it, bounty hunting having other very much useful skills like direction sense and ride. I really wish backstab/sap branched from disarm instead of weapon skill but thats a dead horse at this point.  With infiltrator, pickmaking is something I would enjoy having branched because its annoying do so as well but I wouldn't sacrifice a subclass for it. Basically not all classes are like raiders, many are still dependant on subclasses to be viable/fun in some cases.

The other thing is that it isn't very difficult to get a skill like say backstab and sap to advanced but getting that skill to MAX is what is time consuming so getting an early boost isn't worth the karma if you really want to be competitive.

Therefore, these would be my recommendations:

• Allow karma boosted options but still allow people to choose subclasses, depending how much karma is left. eg. If i have one karma, I might choose to boost my enforcer branching sap, but still pick a 0 karma subclass like weapon crafter to round them out. If i have two karma, I might choose to also boost my infiltrator by 1 karma to aquire pick making but then still have 1 karma left allowing me to select an extended subclass to round them out.


• While across the board boosting is not a bad thing. I would look at every class and pick a few select skills to boost to MAX levels at k2 options.To be specific, a k2 raider should probably have MAX archery, mid-journey man weapon skills and max ride, a k2 enforcer should have max sap, a k2 warrior max disarm and advanced weapons. And while that might seem overpowered, the game both trusts and is willing to give someone with k2 the option to pick a magickal subguilds that gives them insane buffs and abilities, not to mention open up roleplay possibilities that mundanes can only dream of with very little grind, yet certain mundane skills can only be aquired through massive time sinks that promote twinking. 


• Instead of just skill boosts, K1 and K2 class options should allow X2-X5 the learning rate of a failed skill.In the case of stalker and miscreants, crafters, I can't imagine boosted options being as tempting as just learning faster in general and helping get your skills where they need to be. This will reduce the grind without completely eliminating the effort to the coded finish line which should make some concerns moot.


• Please no special applications. It creates needless work for everyone, outside of perhaps just for testing purposes. And I feel would really prevent this from being a good alternative then just being another magicker.

I am also hoping to see 2 karma mundane subguild options someday. In comparison to the skill cap levels the extended subguilds originally had, they are currently much more watered down now, I would like to see a more mundane subguild options with higher skill caps.

Lastly, the traits idea sounds really cool, and would love to see something like this implemented that gives a bit more flavor to our mundanes.

[Brokkr]

Doubt there will ever be an overall skill increasing trait/skill whatever, because the gain for each skill is handled in that skill, not universally.  So you would have to code something in for every skill.  And it is only really combat/weapon skills that are slow, generally.

[Dresan]

And it is only really combat/weapon skills that are slow, generally.

1 karma for all class skills branched, with modest skill boost is tempting. Assuming you can use the rest of your karma if any for non-magickal extended sub-classes.

However, the k2 option seems a bit lackluster, because as mentioned getting most non-combat skills to journeyman or advance is not hard, even with skills like archery, backstab and sap the challenge is getting them maxed out. Unfortunately many skills are only viable maxed out. It takes time and effort to create a fun concept, you don't want to lose it because you decided to try something and your skill (ex.stealth) failed.

That is why i suggest that a few(3-4) class defining skills are maxed are offered at max with the k2 option. For example, disarm and high journeyman/low advance weaponskill for fighters. MAXed backstab and modest piecing and bludgeoning weapon boost for infiltrators, miscreants maxed out steal, sneak,hide and sleight of hand with a good boost to pick, raiders with max charge and archery, etc.

A person starting out with a maxed backstab infiltrator with modest weapon skill boost would definitely fun right out the box and significantly reduce of the feeling of grind. And as powerful as that might sound, in my humble opinion its still much better for the game than yet another magicker sub-guild running around.