Put Apartments Back in Luirs

[Delirium]

Put apartments back in Luir's. Forcing everyone who wants a landing pad into Tuluk, Allanak, or Red Storm is bad for the game.

Why would Nenyuk not rebuild? The profits would far outweigh the sunk costs. Just don't make them so ridiculously public as they were on Sun Road. Nobody wanted any of the non-private ones. Toss up 20 or so tents and shanties in the Bailey and let people actually have a base in the middle of the gameworld again. It improves player interaction in the long run.

[SpyGuy]

Put apartments back in Luir's. Forcing everyone who wants a landing pad into Tuluk, Allanak, or Red Storm is bad for the game.

Why would Nenyuk not rebuild? The profits would far outweigh the sunk costs. Just don't make them so ridiculously public as they were on Sun Road. Nobody wanted any of the non-private ones. Toss up 20 or so tents and shanties in the Bailey and let people actually have a base in the middle of the gameworld again. It improves player interaction in the long run.

Agreed.  It's not like the physical space in the Bailey has been removed.  Luir's without apartments isn't very livable imo.  Sadly I think that's the intent.  Which is a shame because Luir's is a great crossroads with more chances for interaction and conflict with varying groups than Storm or even Tuluk.

[Alesan]

Put apartments back in Luir's. Forcing everyone who wants a landing pad into Tuluk, Allanak, or Red Storm is bad for the game.

Why would Nenyuk not rebuild? The profits would far outweigh the sunk costs. Just don't make them so ridiculously public as they were on Sun Road. Nobody wanted any of the non-private ones. Toss up 20 or so tents and shanties in the Bailey and let people actually have a base in the middle of the gameworld again. It improves player interaction in the long run.

Agreed.  It's not like the physical space in the Bailey has been removed.  Luir's without apartments isn't very livable imo.  Sadly I think that's the intent.  Which is a shame because Luir's is a great crossroads with more chances for interaction and conflict with varying groups than Storm or even Tuluk.

I assume it was getting too popular as a "safe" space outside the influence of scary things like templars and nobles, and it had to change to be less welcoming for people to reside there long term.

Except people still do, and all they have to do is live out of a wagon.

[SpyGuy]

@Aleson:   You are correct.  There was also an issue of Luir's at times becoming a free haven for magickers and if I'm not mistaken some apartments didn't trigger crim code. My favorite center of play regardless and they had one of the best apartment complexes in the game for socializing.  And there was certainly player demand, those apartments were always full. 

Was thinking more on this and although I know there were good intentions behind the closure it also meant that the only center of northern play became Tuluk.  Which is highly xenophobic and rightfully so.  Apartments in Luir's would allow for more non-inked PCs to live comfortably at the edge of Tuluk's influence which could lead to interaction whether that be friendly trade or antagonism as Luir's residents hunt or travel lands Tuluk doesn't want them to. 

What happened IC happened for better or worse.  Rebuilding some of the Luir's apartments, perhaps with a few tweaks to address some issues, would improve my enjoyment of the game in my favorite zone. I don't think removing that player option made much sense and I'm of the opinion removing options from players that make sense IC doesn't benefit the game world.

And just to stave off any argument that Nenyuk wouldn't want to rebuild: it was a literal shanty town and tents.  Nenyuk could charge higher rents and people would still pay it.  I can't see a logical reason why Nenyuk wouldn't think rebuilding the bailey apartments wouldn't be profitable.

[Jihelu]

@Aleson:   You are correct.  There was also an issue of Luir's at times becoming a free haven for magickers and if I'm not mistaken some apartments didn't trigger crim code. My favorite center of play regardless and they had one of the best apartment complexes in the game for socializing.  And there was certainly player demand, those apartments were always full. 

Was thinking more on this and although I know there were good intentions behind the closure it also meant that the only center of northern play became Tuluk.  Which is highly xenophobic and rightfully so.  Apartments in Luir's would allow for more non-inked PCs to live comfortably at the edge of Tuluk's influence which could lead to interaction whether that be friendly trade or antagonism as Luir's residents hunt or travel lands Tuluk doesn't want them to. 

What happened IC happened for better or worse.  Rebuilding some of the Luir's apartments, perhaps with a few tweaks to address some issues, would improve my enjoyment of the game in my favorite zone. I don't think removing that player option made much sense and I'm of the opinion removing options from players that make sense IC doesn't benefit the game world.

And just to stave off any argument that Nenyuk wouldn't want to rebuild: it was a literal shanty town and tents.  Nenyuk could charge higher rents and people would still pay it.  I can't see a logical reason why Nenyuk wouldn't think rebuilding the bailey apartments wouldn't be profitable.

From my understanding its still basically a free haven for magickers. Unless they changed some laws while I've been away

[Brokkr]

This isn't a discussion thread.  If you want to discuss Luirs, please take it to its own thread.

[Delirium]

Done.

My opinion stands that we need a central place for players to base out of as currently the game is rigidly split between north/south and that is harmful for interaction. Don't get me started on Tuluk's xenophobia; I'd rather have seen Morin's and Ayun Iskander built up than have an entire city-state open that's cut off from the rest of the game..

Being able to base out of Luir's would still help immensely with trade and interaction points, and provide more opportunity for neutral meeting spots for more people besides just GMH who hide there to get away from the incessant MAKE ME A CUSTOM ITEM nobles and to get a breather from the onslaught of city-based politics.

Will magickers hang out there? Probably. That can be dealt with IC. Spoiler alert, magickers hang out everywhere.

[Delirium]

p.s. Just don't make the tents and shanties crime-code immune areas, and then you've solved your problem of magickers using them as a safe place to cast. Tent walls are thin and shanty walls have cloth-covered gaps. Odd chanting and the various effects from magicks would be noticed and reported on to local authorities, though no one would give a shit about anything else (aka your normal shanty life like crafting, conversating, mudsexing, etc).

The way the shanty town was built was perfect for player interaction, too, since it encouraged you to "hang out in the neighborhood" and gather 'round the fire. Cast magick or murder and you'll be perma-crimmed, congratulations. Yes, this means you can't spar inside your tiny, shitty shanty and your tent with ceilings so low you have to duck. It still fulfills the purpose of having a landing pad, a place to put your stuff to trade, a place to meet and talk and interact.

So, don't echo what's emoted/said/done inside, but do make them spaces you can't murder or magick in.

[Gentleboy]

I'm sorry,

I'm gonna be the bad guy. :sad:

I did not like the apartments in Luir's. I did not like the playstyle it brought to the gameworld. I know, I know we want to have fun and there should be times of peace. But this is also not really the game for it.

Luir's was its own place where the plots and politics of the world (specifically Allanak) did not touch it. And those who lived in Luir's especially so.

[sucre]

I'm confused, I guess, because outside politics definitely did shape what happened to some of it?

[Mercy]

(I haven't played in a hot minute so my two cents are rusted)

If the shanties/tents are rooms you can't lock, I'd be down with it. Maybe give them the ability to be 'held closed' while you're inside and online. Some measure of privacy but not much. Living in an actual shanty town wouldn't afford you much privacy, security or safety at any rate.

Locking those tents never made any sense to me (which isn't to say I didn't make use of it; those were sweet digs), outside of providing player convenience. It always struck me that Luir's required (or should require) a nomadic lifestyle if you wanted to call it home. Minimalist and pretty rough in general.

[Delirium]

Locking those tent flaps baffled me and it never made any sense.

I just kind of tried to gloss it over with "uh maybe they're tying the tent flap shut from inside" or something.

Agreed that they should not be lockable. That's what the lockable chests were for.

Hell, even the shanties could just have curtains for doors. Make it a real nomadic sort of slum town.

[FamousAmos]

Yes please. Make the shanties visible with cracks and windows, so magick can be spotted from outside. And tents... well, they don't have a lot of privacy in general.

[SpyGuy]

Totally agree. Imperfect shanty town living would still provide PCs some of what they want out of apartments while preventing them from becoming mini-warehouses or places to practice spells in safety.  If nothing has changed in the last few months I remember that GMH hunters were expected to settle in Luir's as pseudo-Garrison.  That's a very unattractive proposition to me if Luir's isn't more livable.

@Max:  It's okay to be the bad guy! I agree that sometimes Luir's has been a place to try and escape Allanak's reach. My counter argument is that it's the only true crossroads in the game where it's not surprising to see tribals, Tuluki, Allanaki and whoever else all at the same bar or living side by side. That sort of interaction can breed conflict and with the new north/south dynamic might make things like rumor trading more prevalent when Luir's is in a cycle of having a PC population.  That and if your PC is causing enough of a fuss that templars start to take notice then they should be able to apply pressure on the GMH to take care of the problem.

Luir's communities often had multiple sources of conflict but even the times where people mostly got along were still useful in pushing the story forward. You need a certain amount of PCs working together to do cool shit and giving them a place that's beyond the templarate's easy reach offers the freedom to make things happen. And if the templars then don't like the rumors of what's going on in Luir's then it provides a source of conflict to pressure the GMH or other groups to take care of it.

[Troicha]

I like the idea of some kind of shanty-town in Luir's, especially if it's not as large as it used to be but still exists. Two or three available tents, maybe, with the rest being virtual (but definitely mentioned in room descriptions, echoes, and NPCs). I think back when it was here it had a pretty good effect on the game, especially compared to Nenyuki apartments and their difficulties with siloing the playerbase.

I also very much like the idea that this should be an in-game initiative. If such a space is wanted, some Kuraci PC should work to make it happen, possibly with support and persuasion from other PCs for whom such a space would be useful. Not all changes that might make the world a better place should be staff initiatives, and I think this is a perfect example of something that should be player-led, staff supported.

(I know nobody is explicitly advocating that staff should do this unilaterally; I'm just bringing up another facet of the thing under discussion.)

[FamousAmos]

I also very much like the idea that this should be an in-game initiative. If such a space is wanted, some Kuraci PC should work to make it happen, possibly with support and persuasion from other PCs for whom such a space would be useful. Not all changes that might make the world a better place should be staff initiatives, and I think this is a perfect example of something that should be player-led, staff supported.

You know that will be a hard bargain. Nenyuk supposedly takes care of shanty town and there's not really staff available to make that happen - if they want to.

[Armaddict]

Wasn't there some thread not too long ago where it was posited that this needed to happen?  I believe it said Luir's was basically an 'easy mode' place to set up, so it had drawn everyone there to set up their home base/apartment/warehouse-in-an-apartment?  I could be recalling incorrectly, but I think it was mentioned as a problem.

Maybe some sort of compromise?  Luir's is good for setting up and moving out, but not permanent stay?  Maybe the apartments are more spacious, but their cost goes up from month to month to promote you moving on? Something of that nature?

[Greve]

I think it's iffy. Luir's kinda sucks without apartments, but I don't know if the game can handle spreading the playerbase out across three different major activity centers. Removing the apartments helped to nudge more players towards Allanak and Tuluk. One might question whether or not it was a good idea to re-open Tuluk in an age where the playerbase was already bordering on insufficient, but that's another matter.

If I was re-inventing the game, I would say that Luir's Outpost is only a permanent home for employees of the GMHs, and that their accommodations are provided by the GMHs themselves, not a shanty town. Anyone else in the outpost is a visiting trader selling their goods before the caravan moves on to the next settlement. That's largely how it worked before the fall of Tuluk, wasn't it? Basically a trading hub overseen by House Kurac who accounted for almost all of the permanent residents. Then the GMH triumvirate thing happened, and apartments were added, and it became a little to convenient to treat the place like a hotel resort. You got to live in the center of the world with easy access to any area in the game, as well as the GMH merchants, but without any of the social risks and challenges of living in a city.

While that happened in large part because of historical in-game events that are documented in the game's lore, it was problematic. Living in Luir's is starkly different from living in the cities, under the yoke of tyrannical rulers and corrupt militias. For actual members of the Garrison, that's offset by the duty of defending the outpost from the dangers of the wastes; but to play an indie out of Luir's was kind of like opting out of many of the most fundamental features of the game's setting. You got to have an apartment and crimecode and the safety of a walled settlement, but without having to navigate around templars, nobles, criminal gangs, etc. While the same can sort of be said about Red Storm, that place is so crummy and inhospitable that it isn't quite the same, especially with the Crimson Wind at the time.

I don't know if I would go so far as to call Luir's "easy mode," but I do think that it fails to offer crucial parts of the Zalanthas experience if you're not a part of the Garrison or the GMHs that run the outpost. The place just isn't meant to accommodate indie play beyond the scope of visiting traders.

[Brytta Léofa]

(1) I'm skeptical that we can nudge players very hard at this point. I think if people have a niche where they're having fun, that's great--they're playing the game, and the alternative isn't always "play the game different;" sometimes it's "wander off to something else."

(2) Luir's is definitely a different experience, but I wouldn't call it a cuddle-fest. The GMHs want your business and tend to have a friendly veneer. They'll still murder your ass if it suits them.

(3) Because it's more centrally located, I'd rather see Luir's thrive as the center of indie activity than Red Storm.

[SpyGuy]

(1) I'm skeptical that we can nudge players very hard at this point. I think if people have a niche where they're having fun, that's great--they're playing the game, and the alternative isn't always "play the game different;" sometimes it's "wander off to something else."

(2) Luir's is definitely a different experience, but I wouldn't call it a cuddle-fest. The GMHs want your business and tend to have a friendly veneer. They'll still murder your ass if it suits them.

(3) Because it's more centrally located, I'd rather see Luir's thrive as the center of indie activity than Red Storm.

This sums up my thoughts as well.  I agree that Luir's was 100% a different experience than Nak or Tuluk.  I found it did not lack for murder, corruption and betrayal at all.  Without a Garrison Captain that will change things some but bringing all those different kinds of PCs together breeds conflict.  It's very difficult for Tuluki to infiltrate Nak or vice versa but people who reside in Luir's have an easier time.

In my experience a lot of the PCs who settled in Luir's were also travelers or GMH and would often ride to Nak, Red Storm or Morin's as needed or to follow the RP. 

[betweenford]

Due to how finicky tent-objects are and how easy they are to bust down it pretty much necessitates the use of permanent save rooms to base anywhere close to Luir's Outpost which is more a code problem than a pc lack of drive. I think the characterization and reduction pc unclanned nomad play in luirs outpost to hugboxy or avoidant of game themes or harshness elsewhere is just... Bad.

Its a trading hub where people squat and visit and base in when their tribe is too weak or just visiting, because walls and a water source are more alluring. Its really baffling in an ic sense why no more tent structures haven't gone back in when there are like 1k squatters in the outpost, and really feels like some heavyhanded railroading towards Tuluk in a really unfun way. It already had plenty of MCB and the only detrimental behavior i really saw was when a very very minor amount of ppl treated their aptmnts like a warehouse. It really doesnt hurt anyone's play north or south to have apartments there, it supports current and future pc's who wanna base there, regardless of wherever the population shifts. Some people just like the culture.  Tl;dr: Open more stuff up close less stuff up, give us the apartments.

[Armaddict]

Note:  These questions are invitations, not challenges.

(3) Because it's more centrally located, I'd rather see Luir's thrive as the center of indie activity than Red Storm.

Its a trading hub where people squat and visit and base in when their tribe is too weak or just visiting, because walls and a water source are more alluring. Its really baffling in an ic sense why no more tent structures haven't gone back in when there are like 1k squatters in the outpost, and really feels like some heavyhanded railroading towards Tuluk in a really unfun way.

Is there a reason that indie activity should have a central location, or a sponsored area, or something of that nature?  Indies are 'supposed' to be all over, just part of the crowd, people making their way, I'd have thought.  I don't see why they'd all congregate to one area as a permanent or semi-permanent arrangement.  I don't see why GMH's would be friendlier to competition on their home turf than abroad.

Isn't Luir's basically only 'home' to the people who man it and work it?  I'd been under the impression that if you took a snapshot of Luir's at any given point, most of the non-GMH people would be drifters, nomads, traders, or people just passing through on their way somewhere else.  This is why I was suggesting something that made short-term stays easy, but long-term stays hard (though, how could would it be if Luir's was the first place where you could set up a -camp-, with upgrades available, but without the protection of being inside of a city?)  I understand that there are squatters...but squatters are uh...squatters.

The last time I played living in the outpost was actually truly ages ago.  At that time, there was not housing, but that didn't mean I didn't have interaction.  People were known after passing through, or coming to trade several times, or by interactions made by the staff who traveled.  I dunno if that has morphed entirely since then.

It already had plenty of MCB and the only detrimental behavior i really saw was when a very very minor amount of ppl treated their aptmnts like a warehouse.

Just humor me here, this really is inviting you to explain it to me.  What is the tremendous loss in apartments there if not for storage space?

[sucre]

They might have had to get rid of them for more save/quit rooms elsewhere, maybe. As much as I'd love to see some sort of abodes back in Luirs, it might just be code limitation, on top of worry over player spread?

[Troicha]

Note:  These questions are invitations, not challenges.

This is a good note to make. Thank you. In a similar vein my answer is an attempt to lead on the conversation, not settle or refute the question.

Is there a reason that indie activity should have a central location, or a sponsored area, or something of that nature?  Indies are 'supposed' to be all over, just part of the crowd, people making their way, I'd have thought.  I don't see why they'd all congregate to one area as a permanent or semi-permanent arrangement.  I don't see why GMH's would be friendlier to competition on their home turf than abroad.

As a theoretical member of the independent, scattered population that doesn't base itself in either city, I am already accepting that the group of people I see 'regularly' will be vastly reduced by comparison, possibly down to one (myself). I choose whatever independent role I choose in the full knowledge that this is the case.

However, having somewhere where I, and others like me, don't belong, but provides a clear and convenient place to congregate and linger (since not everyone decides to go at the same time or stay for the same duration) gives me welcome relief from this self-imposed isolation and a chance to indulge in the social side of this game much more easily and more organically than if such a place didn't exist.

Does Luir's with semi-private, medium-term occupancy spaces with limited storage promote this role without turning it into city-play-lite? I think so, though I readily concede the existence of a critical balance region above and below which Luir's does not work for this function as well as it could.

Isn't Luir's basically only 'home' to the people who man it and work it?  I'd been under the impression that if you took a snapshot of Luir's at any given point, most of the non-GMH people would be drifters, nomads, traders, or people just passing through on their way somewhere else.  This is why I was suggesting something that made short-term stays easy, but long-term stays hard (though, how could would it be if Luir's was the first place where you could set up a -camp-, with upgrades available, but without the protection of being inside of a city?)  I understand that there are squatters...but squatters are uh...squatters.

Just bolding what I personally think would be the sweet spot, though we can haggle over what 'long' and 'short' mean.

The last time I played living in the outpost was actually truly ages ago.  At that time, there was not housing, but that didn't mean I didn't have interaction.  People were known after passing through, or coming to trade several times, or by interactions made by the staff who traveled.  I dunno if that has morphed entirely since then.

This is a fair point that deserves amplification. While it seems to me to be the case, it is not self-evident that semi-permanent housing in Luir's would lead to more interaction than is currently available. I think it would, simply because even having it there at all signals to people that this is a place which could be a semi-permanent base, and that in turn signals to people that they can go there and interact with the people who are based there.

[Fakir]

If Red Storm can have places that PCs can rent, Luir's definitely should have them too. It's illogical for an outpost that sees so much traffic to not have any residential properties for lease.

Also, both Red Storm and Luir's share a similar lack of "templar supervision", so there's really no justification for Luir's residences to have features that auto-reveal mages.

That said, I was around when Luir's was looted and I gotta say that most of the apartments were chock-full of gear and raw materials. Perhaps a good balance *might* be to re-introduce shanties, but with very limited storage space in them. PCs or clans looking for that extra storage space can go the prescribed route of finding a warehouse.