Put Apartments Back in Luirs

[Delirium]

Put apartments back in Luir's. Forcing everyone who wants a landing pad into Tuluk, Allanak, or Red Storm is bad for the game.

Why would Nenyuk not rebuild? The profits would far outweigh the sunk costs. Just don't make them so ridiculously public as they were on Sun Road. Nobody wanted any of the non-private ones. Toss up 20 or so tents and shanties in the Bailey and let people actually have a base in the middle of the gameworld again. It improves player interaction in the long run.

[SpyGuy]

Put apartments back in Luir's. Forcing everyone who wants a landing pad into Tuluk, Allanak, or Red Storm is bad for the game.

Why would Nenyuk not rebuild? The profits would far outweigh the sunk costs. Just don't make them so ridiculously public as they were on Sun Road. Nobody wanted any of the non-private ones. Toss up 20 or so tents and shanties in the Bailey and let people actually have a base in the middle of the gameworld again. It improves player interaction in the long run.

Agreed.  It's not like the physical space in the Bailey has been removed.  Luir's without apartments isn't very livable imo.  Sadly I think that's the intent.  Which is a shame because Luir's is a great crossroads with more chances for interaction and conflict with varying groups than Storm or even Tuluk.

[Alesan]

Put apartments back in Luir's. Forcing everyone who wants a landing pad into Tuluk, Allanak, or Red Storm is bad for the game.

Why would Nenyuk not rebuild? The profits would far outweigh the sunk costs. Just don't make them so ridiculously public as they were on Sun Road. Nobody wanted any of the non-private ones. Toss up 20 or so tents and shanties in the Bailey and let people actually have a base in the middle of the gameworld again. It improves player interaction in the long run.

Agreed.  It's not like the physical space in the Bailey has been removed.  Luir's without apartments isn't very livable imo.  Sadly I think that's the intent.  Which is a shame because Luir's is a great crossroads with more chances for interaction and conflict with varying groups than Storm or even Tuluk.

I assume it was getting too popular as a "safe" space outside the influence of scary things like templars and nobles, and it had to change to be less welcoming for people to reside there long term.

Except people still do, and all they have to do is live out of a wagon.

[SpyGuy]

@Aleson:   You are correct.  There was also an issue of Luir's at times becoming a free haven for magickers and if I'm not mistaken some apartments didn't trigger crim code. My favorite center of play regardless and they had one of the best apartment complexes in the game for socializing.  And there was certainly player demand, those apartments were always full. 

Was thinking more on this and although I know there were good intentions behind the closure it also meant that the only center of northern play became Tuluk.  Which is highly xenophobic and rightfully so.  Apartments in Luir's would allow for more non-inked PCs to live comfortably at the edge of Tuluk's influence which could lead to interaction whether that be friendly trade or antagonism as Luir's residents hunt or travel lands Tuluk doesn't want them to. 

What happened IC happened for better or worse.  Rebuilding some of the Luir's apartments, perhaps with a few tweaks to address some issues, would improve my enjoyment of the game in my favorite zone. I don't think removing that player option made much sense and I'm of the opinion removing options from players that make sense IC doesn't benefit the game world.

And just to stave off any argument that Nenyuk wouldn't want to rebuild: it was a literal shanty town and tents.  Nenyuk could charge higher rents and people would still pay it.  I can't see a logical reason why Nenyuk wouldn't think rebuilding the bailey apartments wouldn't be profitable.

[Jihelu]

@Aleson:   You are correct.  There was also an issue of Luir's at times becoming a free haven for magickers and if I'm not mistaken some apartments didn't trigger crim code. My favorite center of play regardless and they had one of the best apartment complexes in the game for socializing.  And there was certainly player demand, those apartments were always full. 

Was thinking more on this and although I know there were good intentions behind the closure it also meant that the only center of northern play became Tuluk.  Which is highly xenophobic and rightfully so.  Apartments in Luir's would allow for more non-inked PCs to live comfortably at the edge of Tuluk's influence which could lead to interaction whether that be friendly trade or antagonism as Luir's residents hunt or travel lands Tuluk doesn't want them to. 

What happened IC happened for better or worse.  Rebuilding some of the Luir's apartments, perhaps with a few tweaks to address some issues, would improve my enjoyment of the game in my favorite zone. I don't think removing that player option made much sense and I'm of the opinion removing options from players that make sense IC doesn't benefit the game world.

And just to stave off any argument that Nenyuk wouldn't want to rebuild: it was a literal shanty town and tents.  Nenyuk could charge higher rents and people would still pay it.  I can't see a logical reason why Nenyuk wouldn't think rebuilding the bailey apartments wouldn't be profitable.

From my understanding its still basically a free haven for magickers. Unless they changed some laws while I've been away

[Brokkr]

This isn't a discussion thread.  If you want to discuss Luirs, please take it to its own thread.

[Delirium]

Done.

My opinion stands that we need a central place for players to base out of as currently the game is rigidly split between north/south and that is harmful for interaction. Don't get me started on Tuluk's xenophobia; I'd rather have seen Morin's and Ayun Iskander built up than have an entire city-state open that's cut off from the rest of the game..

Being able to base out of Luir's would still help immensely with trade and interaction points, and provide more opportunity for neutral meeting spots for more people besides just GMH who hide there to get away from the incessant MAKE ME A CUSTOM ITEM nobles and to get a breather from the onslaught of city-based politics.

Will magickers hang out there? Probably. That can be dealt with IC. Spoiler alert, magickers hang out everywhere.

[Delirium]

p.s. Just don't make the tents and shanties crime-code immune areas, and then you've solved your problem of magickers using them as a safe place to cast. Tent walls are thin and shanty walls have cloth-covered gaps. Odd chanting and the various effects from magicks would be noticed and reported on to local authorities, though no one would give a shit about anything else (aka your normal shanty life like crafting, conversating, mudsexing, etc).

The way the shanty town was built was perfect for player interaction, too, since it encouraged you to "hang out in the neighborhood" and gather 'round the fire. Cast magick or murder and you'll be perma-crimmed, congratulations. Yes, this means you can't spar inside your tiny, shitty shanty and your tent with ceilings so low you have to duck. It still fulfills the purpose of having a landing pad, a place to put your stuff to trade, a place to meet and talk and interact.

So, don't echo what's emoted/said/done inside, but do make them spaces you can't murder or magick in.

[Gentleboy]

I'm sorry,

I'm gonna be the bad guy. :sad:

I did not like the apartments in Luir's. I did not like the playstyle it brought to the gameworld. I know, I know we want to have fun and there should be times of peace. But this is also not really the game for it.

Luir's was its own place where the plots and politics of the world (specifically Allanak) did not touch it. And those who lived in Luir's especially so.

[sucre]

I'm confused, I guess, because outside politics definitely did shape what happened to some of it?

[Mercy]

(I haven't played in a hot minute so my two cents are rusted)

If the shanties/tents are rooms you can't lock, I'd be down with it. Maybe give them the ability to be 'held closed' while you're inside and online. Some measure of privacy but not much. Living in an actual shanty town wouldn't afford you much privacy, security or safety at any rate.

Locking those tents never made any sense to me (which isn't to say I didn't make use of it; those were sweet digs), outside of providing player convenience. It always struck me that Luir's required (or should require) a nomadic lifestyle if you wanted to call it home. Minimalist and pretty rough in general.

[Delirium]

Locking those tent flaps baffled me and it never made any sense.

I just kind of tried to gloss it over with "uh maybe they're tying the tent flap shut from inside" or something.

Agreed that they should not be lockable. That's what the lockable chests were for.

Hell, even the shanties could just have curtains for doors. Make it a real nomadic sort of slum town.

[FamousAmos]

Yes please. Make the shanties visible with cracks and windows, so magick can be spotted from outside. And tents... well, they don't have a lot of privacy in general.

[SpyGuy]

Totally agree. Imperfect shanty town living would still provide PCs some of what they want out of apartments while preventing them from becoming mini-warehouses or places to practice spells in safety.  If nothing has changed in the last few months I remember that GMH hunters were expected to settle in Luir's as pseudo-Garrison.  That's a very unattractive proposition to me if Luir's isn't more livable.

@Max:  It's okay to be the bad guy! I agree that sometimes Luir's has been a place to try and escape Allanak's reach. My counter argument is that it's the only true crossroads in the game where it's not surprising to see tribals, Tuluki, Allanaki and whoever else all at the same bar or living side by side. That sort of interaction can breed conflict and with the new north/south dynamic might make things like rumor trading more prevalent when Luir's is in a cycle of having a PC population.  That and if your PC is causing enough of a fuss that templars start to take notice then they should be able to apply pressure on the GMH to take care of the problem.

Luir's communities often had multiple sources of conflict but even the times where people mostly got along were still useful in pushing the story forward. You need a certain amount of PCs working together to do cool shit and giving them a place that's beyond the templarate's easy reach offers the freedom to make things happen. And if the templars then don't like the rumors of what's going on in Luir's then it provides a source of conflict to pressure the GMH or other groups to take care of it.

[Troicha]

I like the idea of some kind of shanty-town in Luir's, especially if it's not as large as it used to be but still exists. Two or three available tents, maybe, with the rest being virtual (but definitely mentioned in room descriptions, echoes, and NPCs). I think back when it was here it had a pretty good effect on the game, especially compared to Nenyuki apartments and their difficulties with siloing the playerbase.

I also very much like the idea that this should be an in-game initiative. If such a space is wanted, some Kuraci PC should work to make it happen, possibly with support and persuasion from other PCs for whom such a space would be useful. Not all changes that might make the world a better place should be staff initiatives, and I think this is a perfect example of something that should be player-led, staff supported.

(I know nobody is explicitly advocating that staff should do this unilaterally; I'm just bringing up another facet of the thing under discussion.)

[FamousAmos]

I also very much like the idea that this should be an in-game initiative. If such a space is wanted, some Kuraci PC should work to make it happen, possibly with support and persuasion from other PCs for whom such a space would be useful. Not all changes that might make the world a better place should be staff initiatives, and I think this is a perfect example of something that should be player-led, staff supported.

You know that will be a hard bargain. Nenyuk supposedly takes care of shanty town and there's not really staff available to make that happen - if they want to.

[Armaddict]

Wasn't there some thread not too long ago where it was posited that this needed to happen?  I believe it said Luir's was basically an 'easy mode' place to set up, so it had drawn everyone there to set up their home base/apartment/warehouse-in-an-apartment?  I could be recalling incorrectly, but I think it was mentioned as a problem.

Maybe some sort of compromise?  Luir's is good for setting up and moving out, but not permanent stay?  Maybe the apartments are more spacious, but their cost goes up from month to month to promote you moving on? Something of that nature?

[Greve]

I think it's iffy. Luir's kinda sucks without apartments, but I don't know if the game can handle spreading the playerbase out across three different major activity centers. Removing the apartments helped to nudge more players towards Allanak and Tuluk. One might question whether or not it was a good idea to re-open Tuluk in an age where the playerbase was already bordering on insufficient, but that's another matter.

If I was re-inventing the game, I would say that Luir's Outpost is only a permanent home for employees of the GMHs, and that their accommodations are provided by the GMHs themselves, not a shanty town. Anyone else in the outpost is a visiting trader selling their goods before the caravan moves on to the next settlement. That's largely how it worked before the fall of Tuluk, wasn't it? Basically a trading hub overseen by House Kurac who accounted for almost all of the permanent residents. Then the GMH triumvirate thing happened, and apartments were added, and it became a little to convenient to treat the place like a hotel resort. You got to live in the center of the world with easy access to any area in the game, as well as the GMH merchants, but without any of the social risks and challenges of living in a city.

While that happened in large part because of historical in-game events that are documented in the game's lore, it was problematic. Living in Luir's is starkly different from living in the cities, under the yoke of tyrannical rulers and corrupt militias. For actual members of the Garrison, that's offset by the duty of defending the outpost from the dangers of the wastes; but to play an indie out of Luir's was kind of like opting out of many of the most fundamental features of the game's setting. You got to have an apartment and crimecode and the safety of a walled settlement, but without having to navigate around templars, nobles, criminal gangs, etc. While the same can sort of be said about Red Storm, that place is so crummy and inhospitable that it isn't quite the same, especially with the Crimson Wind at the time.

I don't know if I would go so far as to call Luir's "easy mode," but I do think that it fails to offer crucial parts of the Zalanthas experience if you're not a part of the Garrison or the GMHs that run the outpost. The place just isn't meant to accommodate indie play beyond the scope of visiting traders.

[Brytta Léofa]

(1) I'm skeptical that we can nudge players very hard at this point. I think if people have a niche where they're having fun, that's great--they're playing the game, and the alternative isn't always "play the game different;" sometimes it's "wander off to something else."

(2) Luir's is definitely a different experience, but I wouldn't call it a cuddle-fest. The GMHs want your business and tend to have a friendly veneer. They'll still murder your ass if it suits them.

(3) Because it's more centrally located, I'd rather see Luir's thrive as the center of indie activity than Red Storm.

[SpyGuy]

(1) I'm skeptical that we can nudge players very hard at this point. I think if people have a niche where they're having fun, that's great--they're playing the game, and the alternative isn't always "play the game different;" sometimes it's "wander off to something else."

(2) Luir's is definitely a different experience, but I wouldn't call it a cuddle-fest. The GMHs want your business and tend to have a friendly veneer. They'll still murder your ass if it suits them.

(3) Because it's more centrally located, I'd rather see Luir's thrive as the center of indie activity than Red Storm.

This sums up my thoughts as well.  I agree that Luir's was 100% a different experience than Nak or Tuluk.  I found it did not lack for murder, corruption and betrayal at all.  Without a Garrison Captain that will change things some but bringing all those different kinds of PCs together breeds conflict.  It's very difficult for Tuluki to infiltrate Nak or vice versa but people who reside in Luir's have an easier time.

In my experience a lot of the PCs who settled in Luir's were also travelers or GMH and would often ride to Nak, Red Storm or Morin's as needed or to follow the RP. 

[betweenford]

Due to how finicky tent-objects are and how easy they are to bust down it pretty much necessitates the use of permanent save rooms to base anywhere close to Luir's Outpost which is more a code problem than a pc lack of drive. I think the characterization and reduction pc unclanned nomad play in luirs outpost to hugboxy or avoidant of game themes or harshness elsewhere is just... Bad.

Its a trading hub where people squat and visit and base in when their tribe is too weak or just visiting, because walls and a water source are more alluring. Its really baffling in an ic sense why no more tent structures haven't gone back in when there are like 1k squatters in the outpost, and really feels like some heavyhanded railroading towards Tuluk in a really unfun way. It already had plenty of MCB and the only detrimental behavior i really saw was when a very very minor amount of ppl treated their aptmnts like a warehouse. It really doesnt hurt anyone's play north or south to have apartments there, it supports current and future pc's who wanna base there, regardless of wherever the population shifts. Some people just like the culture.  Tl;dr: Open more stuff up close less stuff up, give us the apartments.

[Armaddict]

Note:  These questions are invitations, not challenges.

(3) Because it's more centrally located, I'd rather see Luir's thrive as the center of indie activity than Red Storm.

Its a trading hub where people squat and visit and base in when their tribe is too weak or just visiting, because walls and a water source are more alluring. Its really baffling in an ic sense why no more tent structures haven't gone back in when there are like 1k squatters in the outpost, and really feels like some heavyhanded railroading towards Tuluk in a really unfun way.

Is there a reason that indie activity should have a central location, or a sponsored area, or something of that nature?  Indies are 'supposed' to be all over, just part of the crowd, people making their way, I'd have thought.  I don't see why they'd all congregate to one area as a permanent or semi-permanent arrangement.  I don't see why GMH's would be friendlier to competition on their home turf than abroad.

Isn't Luir's basically only 'home' to the people who man it and work it?  I'd been under the impression that if you took a snapshot of Luir's at any given point, most of the non-GMH people would be drifters, nomads, traders, or people just passing through on their way somewhere else.  This is why I was suggesting something that made short-term stays easy, but long-term stays hard (though, how could would it be if Luir's was the first place where you could set up a -camp-, with upgrades available, but without the protection of being inside of a city?)  I understand that there are squatters...but squatters are uh...squatters.

The last time I played living in the outpost was actually truly ages ago.  At that time, there was not housing, but that didn't mean I didn't have interaction.  People were known after passing through, or coming to trade several times, or by interactions made by the staff who traveled.  I dunno if that has morphed entirely since then.

It already had plenty of MCB and the only detrimental behavior i really saw was when a very very minor amount of ppl treated their aptmnts like a warehouse.

Just humor me here, this really is inviting you to explain it to me.  What is the tremendous loss in apartments there if not for storage space?

[sucre]

They might have had to get rid of them for more save/quit rooms elsewhere, maybe. As much as I'd love to see some sort of abodes back in Luirs, it might just be code limitation, on top of worry over player spread?

[Troicha]

Note:  These questions are invitations, not challenges.

This is a good note to make. Thank you. In a similar vein my answer is an attempt to lead on the conversation, not settle or refute the question.

Is there a reason that indie activity should have a central location, or a sponsored area, or something of that nature?  Indies are 'supposed' to be all over, just part of the crowd, people making their way, I'd have thought.  I don't see why they'd all congregate to one area as a permanent or semi-permanent arrangement.  I don't see why GMH's would be friendlier to competition on their home turf than abroad.

As a theoretical member of the independent, scattered population that doesn't base itself in either city, I am already accepting that the group of people I see 'regularly' will be vastly reduced by comparison, possibly down to one (myself). I choose whatever independent role I choose in the full knowledge that this is the case.

However, having somewhere where I, and others like me, don't belong, but provides a clear and convenient place to congregate and linger (since not everyone decides to go at the same time or stay for the same duration) gives me welcome relief from this self-imposed isolation and a chance to indulge in the social side of this game much more easily and more organically than if such a place didn't exist.

Does Luir's with semi-private, medium-term occupancy spaces with limited storage promote this role without turning it into city-play-lite? I think so, though I readily concede the existence of a critical balance region above and below which Luir's does not work for this function as well as it could.

Isn't Luir's basically only 'home' to the people who man it and work it?  I'd been under the impression that if you took a snapshot of Luir's at any given point, most of the non-GMH people would be drifters, nomads, traders, or people just passing through on their way somewhere else.  This is why I was suggesting something that made short-term stays easy, but long-term stays hard (though, how could would it be if Luir's was the first place where you could set up a -camp-, with upgrades available, but without the protection of being inside of a city?)  I understand that there are squatters...but squatters are uh...squatters.

Just bolding what I personally think would be the sweet spot, though we can haggle over what 'long' and 'short' mean.

The last time I played living in the outpost was actually truly ages ago.  At that time, there was not housing, but that didn't mean I didn't have interaction.  People were known after passing through, or coming to trade several times, or by interactions made by the staff who traveled.  I dunno if that has morphed entirely since then.

This is a fair point that deserves amplification. While it seems to me to be the case, it is not self-evident that semi-permanent housing in Luir's would lead to more interaction than is currently available. I think it would, simply because even having it there at all signals to people that this is a place which could be a semi-permanent base, and that in turn signals to people that they can go there and interact with the people who are based there.

[Fakir]

If Red Storm can have places that PCs can rent, Luir's definitely should have them too. It's illogical for an outpost that sees so much traffic to not have any residential properties for lease.

Also, both Red Storm and Luir's share a similar lack of "templar supervision", so there's really no justification for Luir's residences to have features that auto-reveal mages.

That said, I was around when Luir's was looted and I gotta say that most of the apartments were chock-full of gear and raw materials. Perhaps a good balance *might* be to re-introduce shanties, but with very limited storage space in them. PCs or clans looking for that extra storage space can go the prescribed route of finding a warehouse.

[SpyGuy]

Also, both Red Storm and Luir's share a similar lack of "templar supervision", so there's really no justification for Luir's residences to have features that auto-reveal mages.

I'm against residences that are safe, private places to cast magick that aren't the elementalist temples.  But that's a separate conversation.  For Luir's it was always a disconnect if you heard of it happening because in Luir's using magick inside the outpost is punishable by death (following a warning in most cases).

[Armaddict]

If Red Storm can have places that PCs can rent, Luir's definitely should have them too.

I...see very little correlation between the two locations and don't particularly see a reason that either one should dictate anything about the other.  Based off what was said in response to my questions, I lean towards some sort of middle ground that allows for occupancy but some sort of balancing mechanic in terms of using Luir's as an individual/tiny group platform for business.

It's a little weird, because Luir's is a trading post.  So normally it would make sense for all manner of small groups to be there.  But the nature of the population there, as well as the ownership and 'mood' of that ownership in history, makes me think they would not be necessarily that friendly to groups that were doing anything other than bolstering GMH profits.  This leads me to the idea that having storage for materials and crafts would likely lead to a more official arrangement than just owning an apartment.  The apartment itself would be for actual living space.  Decoration, privacy, a place to lift your feet up without the bustle of the End.  So yeah...some sort of short-term arrangement, or limited spaces as suggested, seems the best to me.

I have no idea how prevalent the 'magicker safe haven' or the 'avoid templarate oppression' standpoints are.  I can't think that they were a major driving factor, and I'm actually in favor of rogue mages as long as they're...you know...being rogue-y.  I just think it was about having safer apartments to stash a bunch of things, that's the one that actually makes sense in my head that reasonable people would be drawn to.  I just also think that the idea of a safe space in a place filled with drifters, nomads, tribals, and outlaws on the run from the major centers is kind of a misrepresentation based off of other factors of the game, rather than it being an actual sensible reality.

[Delirium]

1) Make the apartments tiny. Tents and shanties with just enough room for a lockable 200-stone chest that comes with the room, a bedroll, and maybe a shelf and some decorations. The tents and shanties themselves cannot be locked, they have curtains for doors.

2) Do not make what happens inside echo outside, or what happens outside echo inside, but DO have them crime-coded. No happily spamcasting magick, no sparring, no murders, just a place to crash and put your stuff for a while so you can actually stable your mount and interact at the tavern without carrying 3 large bags and being at unbelievably heavy. Oh, and those bags aren't for you, it's because you're trying to meet up with a GMH merchant to give them stuff they want but they're not online yet.

3) Add like 20 of them in the old spot where the tents/shanties used to be, with the above caveats and changes. Let people actually form a transient sort of community there, but since it has almost zero security and no benefits for magicker types, it won't become a cuddle-pile, it'll perform a much needed and more useful function -- a means of providing connection and interaction.

4) The reason Luir's is so important as a place to be able to "crash" aka have a base, even if it's a tiny shitty tent, is because it's smack dab in the middle of the world. That allows characters to mix more with north/south/tribal and that means story and conflict. Right now, it feels too harshly divided between north/south. It's stifling. It's boring.

5) The other reason it's important to be able to have even a shitty, temporary base in Luir's is because how the hell are you going to start a business there if you don't have a place to at least temporarily store stuff so you can sell it while you wait on a warehouse?


I love Luir's. Always have. And even though declared magickers are allowed, casting in the Outpost is a death sentence and fixing the apartments to not be hidden from crime-code will fix that little hiccup that allowed for clusters of happy magicker cabals that could often spamcast to power with no risk. With this fix they'd have to actually go beyond the walls like they're supposed to.

[Mercy]

3) Add like 20 of them in the old spot where the tents/shanties used to be, with the above caveats and changes. Let people actually form a transient sort of community there, but since it has almost zero security and no benefits for magicker types, it won't become a cuddle-pile, it'll perform a much needed and more useful function -- a means of providing connection and interaction.

This makes the min-maxing part of my brain light up like crazy, and that scares me. I'm assuming/hoping 20 is just a spitball number, but that many can/will result in issues of cuddle-fest. Get a couple of people to lock down some rooms between them, even if there's elevating rent rates they can just rotate their rooms. I'm sure there's plenty of ways to code it to prevent this, but I'm under the impression there's no systems in place currently that do this. So that's a thing.

Also, both Red Storm and Luir's share a similar lack of "templar supervision", so there's really no justification for Luir's residences to have features that auto-reveal mages.

Auto-reveal and crim-code are not quite the same thing. The former implies that as walking through the door an alarm sounds and you're hauled off to a dusty prison cave. The latter means you can't just start gicking up your tent like you live in a soundproof booth. It also means you can't turn your tent into a brawlhalla, laying money bets on the stump or the mul. Not magick specific but definitely impacts those sorts.


I haven't been around in a hot minute, let alone in Luir's, so my opinions are purely speculation based off second-hand information (by and large from this thread). Personally I really enjoy playing independent types, as I enjoy played clanned PCs. They, in my experience, tend to have pretty distinctly different experiences which I enjoy. I am wary of having a comfortable "safe haven". Even if the comfort is a veneer, if that veneer doesn't get pulled back for you specifically then it might as well be a real thing. It changes the dynamic in my experience, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but I feel it should come with it's own limitations and risks if you want to have a slice of safety to call your own.

Maybe instead of adding shanties, throw in a room you have to pay to enter that has lockable chests in it? "Rent" a chest. Throw your stuff in. Come back to get your stuff before you leave and turn in your key, killing your tab. Have a guard or few in the room. Adds a layer of insecurity and transparency to the whole process. Maybe there are certain things you'd feel really uncomfortable leaving there and decide are better kept on your person. So on. This could run into the whole no current coded support issue however.

[Troicha]

It's a little weird, because Luir's is a trading post.  So normally it would make sense for all manner of small groups to be there.  But the nature of the population there, as well as the ownership and 'mood' of that ownership in history, makes me think they would not be necessarily that friendly to groups that were doing anything other than bolstering GMH profits.

I lean toward expanding non-Kuraci presence in Luir's for clans that have political and mercantile agreements with Luir's already. Things like a Sun Runner sleeping and small storage area, similarly with Arabet and other tribals. This would provide more incentive and support for those types to interface with Luir's more often, thus driving traffic to a central location, while also being justifiable IC (from a Kuraci perspective, not necessarily those of the tribes in question). It could also almost certainly be achieved largely by player action.

[Delirium]

Yeah, 20 was a ballpark number. 10-15 is fine too but if people are really doing the apartment roulette thing to lock down tents they can then add their friends to, no number is going to stop them. Except having higher numbers of tents so other people have at least a fighting chance.

That's just players being greedy and there's nothing you can do about it.

I don't see increasing rent prices as being a thing, as it'd require new code nor would it be fair to those with lower and offpeak playtimes.

Fakir definitely misunderstood me, you wouldn't get a glaring sign over your head that you're a magicker. You just aren't allowed to cast magick in the outpost without consequences, just like you aren't allowed to attack and murder people without consequence.

[Halaster]

I'm not really going to comment on whether or not we'll ever re-introduce apartments or something like it in Luir's.  But the general reasoning was to lessen the dilution of the playerbase over multiple play centers.  Tuluk reopening added a new (returned) major play center, but staff felt the need to remove the incentives to play somewhere else to accommodate given the size of our playerbase, and Luir's made sense.  If we had 80 people on every night we could justify that additional play center, but we don't.

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that we experiment with ideas sometimes.  Was removing the apartments from Luir's the best idea we've ever had?  That remains to be seen.  But a big change like that takes time before we really see the results and see how things play out.  If there are changes again, I don't imagine they'll be too soon as we need to give the current layout some time to see how it goes.

[th3kaiser]

Thanks for the answer Hal.

Just my own opinion here. I've never appreciated it when staff attempt to use their soft power to influence how and where we play. Closing things to make players play in a manner staff wants has always felt icky to me. Let players make their own decisions about this sort of thing. Is this place too empty right now? That's fine, because nobody wants to be there because they're not having fun with it. And that's all I have to say about it.

[X-D]

I would simply DRASTICALLY reduce the rent time. Luirs is a trading post, lodgings should be like cheap motels. Cannot rent by the month, can by the week...rent renew every 48RL hours or poof. Oh, and cannot "rent with someone".

[Quell]

I would simply DRASTICALLY reduce the rent time. Luirs is a trading post, lodgings should be like cheap motels. Cannot rent by the month, can by the week...rent renew every 48RL hours or poof. Oh, and cannot "rent with someone".

That'd actually be an interesting option to throw into every civilized area.

[X-D]

I would also make it so if in apartment when rent runs out, you log in out on the street.

[Lotion]

Apartments with variable maximum rent lengths would be neat. Sometimes you're only stopping in for a little bit and only need a room for a little while. The option for longer term storage solutions, especially for those who want to have an MMH warehouse but do not yet have one would be good.

[Troicha]

I would simply DRASTICALLY reduce the rent time. Luirs is a trading post, lodgings should be like cheap motels. Cannot rent by the month, can by the week...rent renew every 48RL hours or poof. Oh, and cannot "rent with someone".

I find this idea deliciously amusing in light of the fact that Kurac is also known for its whores.

[X-D]

How the idea came to me honestly.

[Brokkr]

I've never appreciated it when staff attempt to use their soft power to influence how and where we play. Closing things to make players play in a manner staff wants has always felt icky to me.

There were unforeseen consequences to adding housing to Luirs.  The game had existing 20 years without housing in Luirs.  We had several options on what we could do, we chose to essentially do a bit of a revert. Another option would have been to leave Allanak in control of Luirs, for instance.

It was less trying to force players to play a certain way than undoing the unintended consequences of our prior actions.

[SpyGuy]

I've never appreciated it when staff attempt to use their soft power to influence how and where we play. Closing things to make players play in a manner staff wants has always felt icky to me.

There were unforeseen consequences to adding housing to Luirs.  The game had existing 20 years without housing in Luirs.  We had several options on what we could do, we chose to essentially do a bit of a revert. Another option would have been to leave Allanak in control of Luirs, for instance.

It was less trying to force players to play a certain way than undoing the unintended consequences of our prior actions.

While all true the game is also different than it was 5 or 20 years ago. Tribal roleplay moved out of the Tablelands and became more focused on Luir's.  In the old days Kurac owned the Outpost and usually had PCs stationed there and later it was the Garrison.  I don't think the recent changes to GMH hunters are a substitute for this. This may be anecdotal but there seem to be more long-lived PCs around and those are more likely to want a place they can settle down in.  The playerbase has aged, free time is harder to come by and apartments may have become expected so that PCs can have a place to store their mementos, raise a virtual family, whatever.

Obviously this was staff's decision.  I'm just trying to point out that the changes to Luir's weren't made in a bubble.  The game changed around Luir's becoming a center of play.  For current plots based around Nak and Tuluk I would argue a thriving Luir's would be beneficial. But at the end of the day any time there are big changes some of us will be disappointed.

[Athapaxis]

A few things to note on this:

1 - When the Garrison was active, those tents were being checked regularly.  The locks were incredibly easy to pick.
2 - I am aware of multiple 'gicks who were chased out of town or killed by the Garrison during that time
3 - The activity in Luir's led to much more activity in the other cities because its where deals were made, plots were hatched and people rested and restocked on the way from one place to another.
4 - The way to keep player numbers up is to keep the game fun.  A more active and busy Luir's has (in my experience) consistently been one of the most fun parts of the game.

With that said, I don't think the Garrison is coming back any time soon, so that changes things some.  It does seem like crim-flagged tents would help.  Don't put in lockable chests - if people want that make them provide them.  You can make the tents "lockable" but if they're the level they were before almost anyone with the basic skill will be able to get in.  I think this would improve the game without the adverse effects previously seen.

[Armaddict]

3 - The activity in Luir's led to much more activity in the other cities because its where deals were made, plots were hatched and people rested and restocked on the way from one place to another.

That's only traveling people.  And that's kind of an exaggeration in the first place.  This literally hatched an entire thread about problems with the other locations, when the problems weren't with the other locations, they just improved one location too far.

It was less trying to force players to play a certain way than undoing the unintended consequences of our prior actions.

Of course you'd say something like this, when my favorite accusation is that you guys say that you'll trial things but never end up undoing it.  Of course you would.  Just to spite me.

[roughneck]

Affordable rent for private residence anywhere is a problem and anti-thematic. It's easy mode.

Make guarded communal tents with lockable chests.

1 tent with 10 chests at 500 per month each - that's business baby!

It also ACTUALLY encourages interaction and roleplay instead of hording and solo play. Instead of someone cooking and crafting by themselves, they now are doing it in a communal area. If you want to mudsex in private, rent a room at the tavern. 

[Riev]

Affordable rent for private residence anywhere is a problem and anti-thematic. It's easy mode.

Make guarded communal tents with lockable chests.

1 tent with 10 chests at 500 per month each - that's business baby!

It also ACTUALLY encourages interaction and roleplay instead of hording and solo play. Instead of someone cooking and crafting by themselves, they now are doing it in a communal area. If you want to mudsex in private, rent a room at the tavern.

I am surprisingly down with more 'communal living' areas, with locable shelves or chests.

[Patuk]

We have communal living areas. They are called clan compounds, and they are far safer than any apartment you could hope to rent.

[Troicha]

This is in line with other suggestions in the thread, but I make it as a kind of full package.

Upthread it has been noted that the primary benefit of apartments/shanties in Luir's was allowing a base of storage. It has also been noted that apartments as they stand tend to have a silo effect on the playerbase, where people spend time in their 'safe' alone space. Too, there are IC concerns that keep Kurac from unilaterally providing apartments in Luir's (namely, competition with Nenyuk and all the pain that would bring).

A proposal I feel neatly solves all these issues:

Have a communal crafting space, probably a large-ish pavilion, or even attached to the Storm's End, again to drive players closer together. Have various benefits in this space, such as tables/benches for sitting, and access to various immovable tools (like a fire and certain tools which give a bonus to other common crafts that aren't coming to mind right now, but nothing too fancy).

Also in this space, have a number of lockable containers, able to be rented from Kurac via interaction with an NPC on-site. This could be half-a-dozen footlockers, a dozen chests, whatever staff and the driving players feel would fit the area. Rent should be paid much like it is for apartments, or else you lose access to your chest until your rent is renewed. Since from an IC perspective the point is to drive petty trade to the Outpost, containers are one per person, and anyone discovered creating a cabal to monopolize rental space is dealt with harshly. (How such things are discovered and dealt with is probably best left as an IC exercise.)

Notably this proposal includes no private space whatsoever, only private storage. Thus all the potential difficulties with private or perceived-private space are avoided. This is not a place to practice magick or other illegal activitiy, and not just because of a crimflag you could theoretically wait to expire, but because other players (as well as NPCs) might catch you. It is structured to encourage people to RP together while crafting or carrying out business, rather than sitting alone. Finally, such a thing could probably be handled by Kuraci player drive with staff support, rather than being a strictly staff-led initiative, since as I see it this doesn't impinge enough on any other GMH's business that it should be impossible, though obviously it would take the usual amount of baksheesh to achieve in-game.

[Fredd]

I've never appreciated it when staff attempt to use their soft power to influence how and where we play. Closing things to make players play in a manner staff wants has always felt icky to me.

There were unforeseen consequences to adding housing to Luirs.  The game had existing 20 years without housing in Luirs.  We had several options on what we could do, we chose to essentially do a bit of a revert. Another option would have been to leave Allanak in control of Luirs, for instance.

It was less trying to force players to play a certain way than undoing the unintended consequences of our prior actions.

What was the unforseen consequences, I'm curious.

[Lotion]

Smaller capacity of the shanty town tents mixed with the larger capacity of the shared yard rooms gave it a much nicer open feeling. There are other apartments with shared hallway rooms but people usually just decorate sort of put up a statue or something as a decoration and they are uninteresting. At the Shanty Town people would put workbenches, campfires, chairs, and other cool stuff that would be communally used. In the Shanty Town you got to know your neighbors. Those shared communal rooms were so good and I would want future Luir's Apartments to be nearly the same but with more space so that people don't get meta pk-d for a shanty.

[Delirium]

While all true the game is also different than it was 5 or 20 years ago. Tribal roleplay moved out of the Tablelands and became more focused on Luir's.  In the old days Kurac owned the Outpost and usually had PCs stationed there and later it was the Garrison.  I don't think the recent changes to GMH hunters are a substitute for this. This may be anecdotal but there seem to be more long-lived PCs around and those are more likely to want a place they can settle down in.  The playerbase has aged, free time is harder to come by and apartments may have become expected so that PCs can have a place to store their mementos, raise a virtual family, whatever.

Obviously this was staff's decision.  I'm just trying to point out that the changes to Luir's weren't made in a bubble.  The game changed around Luir's becoming a center of play.  For current plots based around Nak and Tuluk I would argue a thriving Luir's would be beneficial. But at the end of the day any time there are big changes some of us will be disappointed.

+1 yep.

But also mostly because it's bad for interaction to not have a place to stash stuff while you're waiting on that person you're trading with or when you ride in from a hunting trip and you've got average strength. Sucks to be you sucka. Guess you're stuck at the firepit while everybody else hangs out at the bar.