Author Topic: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You  (Read 7812 times)

Brokkr

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Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« on: August 11, 2021, 12:22:39 PM »
There is currently a proposal Staff is discussing around doing some limited tweaks to the following skill levels.  Due to the way our code works, this would impact not only future characters to be created, but existing characters.  That is not something we can get around.  This way the classes were implemented was quite formulaic, in terms of the way which classes got which starting and max skill levels was determined.  In looking at behaviors and major pain points, at some point it was obvious deviating from that formula would be necessary to address those, which is the focus here.

Proposed Changes

  • Switch Miscreant Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels with Infiltrator Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels
  • Switch Miscreant Steal maximum skill level with Pilferer maximum skill level
  • Switch Stalker Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels with Scout Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels
  • Add Scan to Soldier with same maximum skill level as Stalker/Miscreant/Laborer
  • Increase Soldier Subdue to same maximum skill level as Jihaen Templar
  • Increase starting Kick skill slightly for Fighter/Raider/Enforcer (its actually lower than the formulaic design, somehow)
  • Decrease Kick skill level required to branch Disarm for Raiders
  • Decrease Bash skill level required to branch Disarm for Enforcers

Open to looking at other things, but really focused on bigger pain points, behavior and class selection type changes, rather than quality of life changes (e.g. adding skinning to Raider or Artisan).

Narf

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2021, 12:45:07 PM »
My opinion is that when nerfing a class you should nerf by small increments and see if it brings about desired changes (particularly if its retroactive). Given that, I'd limit reducing miscreant skills to one or the other of either steal or stealth, rather than reducing both of them.

Bebop

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2021, 12:50:18 PM »
Can fences also have max sneak/hide?  It's one of the few sneaky skills they have and they are almost useless combat wise without a subguild.  It is their sneaky bread and butter.

Please give raiders skin.  Raiders should be fleeing in the wastes and if they can navigate in the wilds it stands to reason they'd be able to feed themselves.  That or desert forage.

Edit... Oh dang just saw the last note about no skin.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 01:40:50 PM by Bebop »

Krath

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2021, 12:59:44 PM »
I agree with Narf 100%. I also agree with Bebop about Raiders having skinning, even if it stops at  low JM.
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mhartman

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2021, 01:00:06 PM »
I'd like to see infiltrator with the miscreant level hide/sneak, yes. Miscreant is really overshadowing that class right now. Giving scan to soldiers is a great idea.  Stalker overshadows scout in the same way.

RE: Soldiers having the same level of subdue as JIhaen templar... yeah soldiers should also get that so they can subdue for long distances. (ie. to the jail)
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 10:40:35 AM by mhartman »

CodeMaster

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2021, 01:00:27 PM »
I wanted to get in early and post a resounding yes.  This will do so much to help the themes of the new classes, especially the city sneaks.

The last numbers I saw suggested miscreants are popular among the PC population, so there might be some pushback.  Maybe accommodating those players in some way would be worth considering, but I'd hope that wouldn't oppose a beneficial change like this.
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X-D

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2021, 01:07:15 PM »
Going to go from the bottom up here. Sorta.

Bash and kick, Kick is WAY harder to raise then bash, but bash can be pretty hard for some races to raise. On at least one race it is just this side of impossible to get past even apprentice.

So, I think that yes to all suggestions having to do with those skills on those classes. Though the changes to bash should be smaller then the changes to kick. Bash being the far more powerful skill and being, over all, easier to raise.

Soldier getting scan sounds good to me. Improved subdue makes sense as well.

Stalker/scout stealth switch...Oooh...I do not know. I find that, sure it would be good for scout but it would be a real big hit to stalkers. I mean if the intent is more a major stalker nerf then anything, fine. If it is to bring them in line with some other metric then I would consider improving something else survival related like better parry or shield.

On Miscreant....Now, I am ALL for something being done so that a miscreant with max sneak/hide/steal has a chance to actually get caught. The question is, which skill is doing the most to save them. I lean towards that being Hide. So, making the proposed changes to miscreant stealth I think would be a good first step, But not to make a change to steal...YET.

One step, then the other if need be.





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mansa

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2021, 01:08:43 PM »
Proposed Changes

  • Switch Miscreant Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels with Infiltrator Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels
  • Switch Miscreant Steal maximum skill level with Pilferer maximum skill level
  • Switch Stalker Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels with Scout Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels
  • Add Scan to Soldier with same maximum skill level as Stalker/Miscreant/Laborer
  • Increase Soldier Subdue to same maximum skill level as Jihaen Templar
  • Increase starting Kick skill slightly for Fighter/Raider/Enforcer (its actually lower than the formulaic design, somehow)
  • Decrease Kick skill level required to branch Disarm for Raiders
  • Decrease Bash skill level required to branch Disarm for Enforcers


  • Switch Miscreant Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels with Infiltrator Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels
  • Switch Stalker Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels with Scout Sneak and Hide maximum skill levels

When I played my most recently Miscreant (65+ days played, Human, in the Guild) I was frequently caught sneaking and hiding at least once a day.  I wasn't a super ninja, and I could of immediately been killed if not for my social clout.
My suggestion is:
Bump Infiltrator Sneak/Hide
Bump Stalker Sneak/Hide
Keep Miscreant Sneak/Hide same
Reduce Agility Modifiers to those skills by 15% ~ 25%

I feel you may get better results by reducing the agility score multiplier when doing the calculation.  This should make high agility elves have a reduction in skill proficiency and at the high end of the skill make the agility bonuses not be overpowering.


  • Switch Miscreant Steal maximum skill level with Pilferer maximum skill level
I feel that STEAL is one of those skills that people won't use until they are guaranteed to succeed at it, specially at lower levels.  I would reduce Miscreant MAX steal by -5% and increase Pilferer to Miscreant's old max skill percentage.


  • Add Scan to Soldier with same maximum skill level as Stalker/Miscreant/Laborer
  • Increase Soldier Subdue to same maximum skill level as Jihaen Templar

I would put SCAN at -5% of Miscreant/Laborer/Stalker Max.
I'm fine with Subdue being that high.


  • Increase starting Kick skill slightly for Fighter/Raider/Enforcer (its actually lower than the formulaic design, somehow)
I would do something different with Kick/Bash as a whole:
I would increase the chance of skill progression by 20% during any failure.


  • Decrease Kick skill level required to branch Disarm for Raiders
  • Decrease Bash skill level required to branch Disarm for Enforcers
I'm fine with that.


NEW STUFF:
Search :
I think Search is an underused feature, and in my opinion, having the ability to spot it doesn't give a huge advantage to the players.
Scout - Journeyman (high)
Stalker - Advanced (low)

Value :
I think Value is another skill that doesn't give a lot of perks to the players, in terms of advantage over other players.
Labourer - Advanced (low)

Climb :
I think Climb, at lower levels, should be given to a couple classes, as it can be annoying to try and climb out of pits.
Fence - Journeyman
Dune Trader - Journeyman

Poisoning :
I think it's a mistake to not have Pilferer have Poisoning, if Fence has Poisoning
Pilferer - Advanced

Give City Elf Racial - Sleight of Hand which caps @ Advanced
« Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 01:14:04 PM by mansa »
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Pariah

  • Posts: 322
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2021, 01:13:48 PM »
Alright, as a player who’s an old player, but a mediocre one when it comes to skill raises outside of crafts and skinning/scanning.

I would say leave stalker alone.

I know I probably lack some type of mechanical knowledge in regard to hide/sneak learning but I hardly ever get it past apprentice, but love the fact I can “try” to get it to max.

Maybe one day I’ll learn the Konami code for getting my wilderness sneak/hide raised to max and want to leave that as a possibility.

Can’t really speak on the rest as I’m team “stalker”.

Gentleboy

  • Posts: 375
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2021, 01:25:31 PM »
The reason people play stalker and miscreant is for those hide/sneak. Taking it away would be a huge hit.

Without that, they don't get great weapon stats, or like a lot of crafting. I think they're fine as they are, honestly.

It's also a very human focused change. I think that elves especially choose those classes because of the fact that they cannot ride. The sneaking and hiding is everything, especially since a hit is more like a kiss.

Attana

  • Posts: 835
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2021, 01:27:40 PM »
My hot take:

I’m actually content with the trade off of scout having slightly higher combat while stalkers have slightly higher utility skills (sneak, hide, climb, poisoning, etc.)

What I /would/ like to see in place of the sneaky adjustment to bring both of those classes on par with each other is to adjust scout to include some of the other skills it’s desert survival counterpart has.  Brew being one of them.  It would stand to reason that a desert class who can poison has also learned about herbal cures to some extent.

The rest of everything else, I have no opinion on as I’m not familiar with any of those classes.
After knocking back a mouthful of the contents of a full shot-glass, toking away on a rolled joint directly afterwards you say in desert-accented sirihish:
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Brokkr

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2021, 01:36:05 PM »
My opinion is that when nerfing a class you should nerf by small increments and see if it brings about desired changes (particularly if its retroactive). Given that, I'd limit reducing miscreant skills to one or the other of either steal or stealth, rather than reducing both of them.

  • An opinion is less useful than an assessment.
  • An assessment would probably take into account that it would likely be another couple of years before something similar to this happens again, we will not be making small adjustments every few months.  We are messing with current character sheets and that is typically better to do all at once rather than drag out over multiple characters.  So it is a no go on rolling this out incrementally.
  • Why would you limit it to one or the other?  Stating you have an opinion doesn't give us anything that is actionable, it is the reasoning behind it that is worthwhile.


Brokkr

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2021, 01:39:14 PM »
Can fences also have max sneak?  It's one of the few sneaky skills they have and they are almost useless combat wise without a subguild.  It is their sneaky bread and butter.

Fences are merchants.  Of course they are useless combat wise.  They aren't true sneaks either.

Please give raiders skin.  Raiders should be fleeing in the wastes and if they can navigate in the wilds it stands to reason they'd be able to feed themselves.  That or desert forage.

Edit... Oh dang just saw the last note about no skin.

They can feed themselves just fine by skinning things and getting meat without the skin skill.  Consistently on everything?  No.  But they are badass warrior types, so killing multiple things is until they can feed themselves isn't typically a problem.  Unless you really like mekillot meat.

Brokkr

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2021, 01:40:36 PM »
RE: Soldiers having the same level of subdue as JIhaen templar... there has long been the idea that the jail should be brought closer to the criminals. I'd consider this high level RP, in game solution first. If not possible, yeah soldiers should also get that so they can subdue for long distances.

I'm actually more concerned with the initial subdue attempt than the ability to hold someone effectively, due to the crim code implications.

Brokkr

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2021, 01:51:16 PM »
Stalker/scout stealth switch...Oooh...I do not know. I find that, sure it would be good for scout but it would be a real big hit to stalkers. I mean if the intent is more a major stalker nerf then anything, fine. If it is to bring them in line with some other metric then I would consider improving something else survival related like better parry or shield.

Stalkers have everything, and Scouts don't have anything that differentiates them from Stalkers in the Wilderness.  Scouts work ok for fighting, but the Stalkers are superior in all the Wilderness type activities.  Much like Miscreant/Infiltrator, this breaks that up.

On Miscreant....Now, I am ALL for something being done so that a miscreant with max sneak/hide/steal has a chance to actually get caught. The question is, which skill is doing the most to save them. I lean towards that being Hide. So, making the proposed changes to miscreant stealth I think would be a good first step, But not to make a change to steal...YET.

One step, then the other if need be.

Note previous comment on not doing this incrementally.  Looking at making Infiltrator better at Sneak/Hide in part so that they can function a bit more like old assassins.  We've seen more theft stuff and less assassiny kill people stuff.  That leaves Miscreant the best at both main theft skills, pick and steal.  It makes more sense to move steal to Pilferer because it leaves in place the pick making/pick split and pick is complemented better by things like master climb, which Miscreant has.

Bebop

  • Posts: 4161
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2021, 02:00:13 PM »
Can fences also have max sneak?  It's one of the few sneaky skills they have and they are almost useless combat wise without a subguild.  It is their sneaky bread and butter.

Fences are merchants.  Of course they are useless combat wise.  They aren't true sneaks either.

Please give raiders skin.  Raiders should be fleeing in the wastes and if they can navigate in the wilds it stands to reason they'd be able to feed themselves.  That or desert forage.

Edit... Oh dang just saw the last note about no skin.

They can feed themselves just fine by skinning things and getting meat without the skin skill.  Consistently on everything?  No.  But they are badass warrior types, so killing multiple things is until they can feed themselves isn't typically a problem.  Unless you really like mekillot meat.

Wouldn't this just lead to spam killing animals to survive because you can skin even a little and so you're constantly butchering it?

Also IMO fences are both sneaky and merchants.  Thats why they have both skills.  I don't mind them not having combat.  I don't see why they even branch a weapon when it's effectively useless.  But it seems weird to give them sneaky skills...almost let them master it and go ope nope.  They don't have any offensive skills really do it'd be nice if they just had master sneak and hide as a defensive measure.

Brokkr

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2021, 02:04:19 PM »
When I played my most recently Miscreant (65+ days played, Human, in the Guild) I was frequently caught sneaking and hiding at least once a day.  I wasn't a super ninja, and I could of immediately been killed if not for my social clout.
My suggestion is:
Bump Infiltrator Sneak/Hide
Bump Stalker Sneak/Hide
Keep Miscreant Sneak/Hide same
Reduce Agility Modifiers to those skills by 15% ~ 25%

I feel you may get better results by reducing the agility score multiplier when doing the calculation.  This should make high agility elves have a reduction in skill proficiency and at the high end of the skill make the agility bonuses not be overpowering.

If you sneak/hide all day long in every room, you are going to get caught.

I didn't mention skill changes because skill changes are not on the table, just adjusting the skill levels at which guilds get them.


Search :
I think Search is an underused feature, and in my opinion, having the ability to spot it doesn't give a huge advantage to the players.
Scout - Journeyman (high)
Stalker - Advanced (low)

It is limited because currently Search isn't necessary, once you know keywords.  If that changed, might consider this.  But while it is a situation that you only need to successfully find something once and you can use that knowledge on all subsequent characters, this is going to remain somewhat more limited.

Value :
I think Value is another skill that doesn't give a lot of perks to the players, in terms of advantage over other players.
Labourer - Advanced (low)

As noted above, this isn't a wish list for nice to haves.  This is about bigger pain points, behavior and class selection.  I'm going to consider small and quality of life issues like this off-topic.  Especially since I believe you just posted all these in another thread recently.

Climb :
I think Climb, at lower levels, should be given to a couple classes, as it can be annoying to try and climb out of pits.
Fence - Journeyman
Dune Trader - Journeyman

It is sort of meant to be annoying. And potentially deadly, especially when you need to climb out of something more than 1 room down.

Poisoning :
I think it's a mistake to not have Pilferer have Poisoning, if Fence has Poisoning
Pilferer - Advanced

If you look back at the stuff from around when the classes were put in place, you'd see Fence only got poisoning because we couldn't figure out something else for it, and it was lacking.  It was a fix specifically for Fence, and in that, its attractiveness vs Pilferer (which this would undo, especially if their Steal is bumped).

Give City Elf Racial - Sleight of Hand which caps @ Advanced

Completely left field and not on topic at all.  This isn't a list of your minor wants, the purpose here has been defined.  Otherwise its going to be madness.  Looking upon Cthulu, not good type of madness.

Brokkr

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2021, 02:05:13 PM »
I know I probably lack some type of mechanical knowledge in regard to hide/sneak learning but I hardly ever get it past apprentice, but love the fact I can “try” to get it to max.

The most common mistake I see is folks trying to increase their wilderness stealth in a city.

Brokkr

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2021, 02:07:46 PM »
What I /would/ like to see in place of the sneaky adjustment to bring both of those classes on par with each other is to adjust scout to include some of the other skills it’s desert survival counterpart has.  Brew being one of them.  It would stand to reason that a desert class who can poison has also learned about herbal cures to some extent.

The reason there are those omissions is so that they aren't cookie cutter and there are some choice between A and B that need to be made. 

roughneck

  • Posts: 878
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2021, 02:09:35 PM »
Keep Stalker sneak/hide where it is. It's the bread and butter of this class, IMO. I mean, stalking is a very stealthy word.

Still bump Scout stealth, however, it's needed for this class. Not every increase requires an equivelant decrease somewhere else.

Same for Miscreant/Infiltrator.

I like the stalker class, but I would never, ever choose it if the stealth was nerfed. 

Mansa made a good point on the agility modifiers for sneak/hide. I've always thought body-size should have a bonus/penalty, but maybe it already does.

roughneck

  • Posts: 878
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2021, 02:10:59 PM »
  • Decrease Kick skill level required to branch Disarm for Raiders
  • Decrease Bash skill level required to branch Disarm for Enforcers

Great change!

Brokkr

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2021, 02:11:09 PM »
Wouldn't this just lead to spam killing animals to survive because you can skin even a little and so you're constantly butchering it?

Given the small, innate bonus to skinning they get, no.

Also IMO fences are both sneaky and merchants.  Thats why they have both skills.  I don't mind them not having combat.  I don't see why they even branch a weapon when it's effectively useless.  But it seems weird to give them sneaky skills...almost let them master it and go ope nope.  They don't have any offensive skills really do it'd be nice if they just had master sneak and hide as a defensive measure.

They are primarily merchants.  With a smattering of sneaky skills.  The merchant part and the sneaky part are not on par with one another (that would be more Pilferer).  Also, not looking for any sort of overall increase to Stealth across the classes given the inherent issues with it.  If once class gets a higher level, a different class gets a lower level.

Brokkr

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2021, 02:15:30 PM »
Still bump Scout stealth, however, it's needed for this class. Not every increase requires an equivelant decrease somewhere else.

Same for Miscreant/Infiltrator.

There will not be an overall increase in stealth ability.  If one class gets better, a different one will get worse.

I like the stalker class, but I would never, ever choose it if the stealth was nerfed. 

It would still be the best at skinning.  And hunting.  And climbing.  And foraging.  And scanning.  It just wouldn't be a ghost.  And -insanely- attractive to mages.

X-D

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Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2021, 02:26:00 PM »
Brokkr:

Quote
Quote from: X-D on Today at 01:07:15 PM

    Stalker/scout stealth switch...Oooh...I do not know. I find that, sure it would be good for scout but it would be a real big hit to stalkers. I mean if the intent is more a major stalker nerf then anything, fine. If it is to bring them in line with some other metric then I would consider improving something else survival related like better parry or shield.


Stalkers have everything, and Scouts don't have anything that differentiates them from Stalkers in the Wilderness.  Scouts work ok for fighting, but the Stalkers are superior in all the Wilderness type activities.  Much like Miscreant/Infiltrator, this breaks that up.

Why I pointed out if we are trying to bring in line with a different metric. I do not actually disagree with you on this matter at all. I just believe that stalker would be taking a much bigger hit then scout is making gain. Which is why the other suggestion, Stalker ghost ability is its main survival asset. If that is going to be lowered then maybe alternate survival should be added. Maybe give them the other two weapon skills at same level they get now. Nothing huge just a bit to offset. Not something I think would make it any more attractive to mages and even more attractive to craft subs.

Quote
Quote from: X-D on Today at 01:07:15 PM

    On Miscreant....Now, I am ALL for something being done so that a miscreant with max sneak/hide/steal has a chance to actually get caught. The question is, which skill is doing the most to save them. I lean towards that being Hide. So, making the proposed changes to miscreant stealth I think would be a good first step, But not to make a change to steal...YET.

    One step, then the other if need be.


Note previous comment on not doing this incrementally.  Looking at making Infiltrator better at Sneak/Hide in part so that they can function a bit more like old assassins.  We've seen more theft stuff and less assassiny kill people stuff.  That leaves Miscreant the best at both main theft skills, pick and steal.  It makes more sense to move steal to Pilferer because it leaves in place the pick making/pick split and pick is complemented better by things like master climb, which Miscreant has.

Since you explained, I will say on this point I totally agree and am good with it.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

roughneck

  • Posts: 878
Re: Feedback: Proposed Skill Changes that could Impact You
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2021, 02:26:16 PM »
Still bump Scout stealth, however, it's needed for this class. Not every increase requires an equivelant decrease somewhere else.

Same for Miscreant/Infiltrator.

There will not be an overall increase in stealth ability.  If one class gets better, a different one will get worse.

I like the stalker class, but I would never, ever choose it if the stealth was nerfed. 

It would still be the best at skinning.  And hunting.  And climbing.  And foraging.  And scanning.  It just wouldn't be a ghost.  And -insanely- attractive to mages.

I get what you're saying. Personally, and maybe it's just my play style, master stealth>all those other skills combined at master. I can work around and create safeguards for the occasional failure in all of the other skills, except for stealth skills in a key moment.

If it does have to be a give/take scenario, I do agree that Scout is a better place for it. That class needs something.

The dreaded master stealth/master backstab combo is a welcome comeback also! Bring it!