Author Topic: Allanaki Laws  (Read 3667 times)

Maso

  • Posts: 4061
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2021, 06:12:38 AM »
I don't think anyone is even talking about templars going around randomly killing commoners... Just... laying down some law in general?

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but the few times I have had templar attention turned on my PC's are often some of the must fun scenes I've managed to have in Southside 'Nak (they were definitely not fun for my characters, one of whom ended up super dead...but fun and exciting for me, the player...).

I play Arm because I like the drama, the conflict, the edge-of-your-seat fear for your character... Templar's are about the scariest thing in 'Nak. This game isn't all about happy-fun-party-cuddle-time, that shit is for RL.

Bad for your character != Bad for RP.
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triste

  • Posts: 1053
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2021, 09:44:23 AM »
Kudos to the person who said this was the Allanaki Problem thread all over.

I'll transfer the main useful insight from there to here. The game has suffered for years from a lack of broad, self sustaining conflict such as what we once had when Tuluk was open.

Instead of this weird notion that "Templars targeting their own citizens arbitrarily, like brunettes/breeds in the examples in this thread, is good roleplay and a great plot," let's remember that the better plot always was and has been, "Southern Templars locked in conflict with Northern Templars mobilize allies to fight with them while dealing with spies and intrigue on their home turf."

The first plot feels like a simulation of school yard politics. Oh no this one girl on the school yard is really rich and you need to be nice to her or all the other rich girls will hate you, eek! The second plot is more intriguing and the stuff of novels and epics; it gives less powerful characters the chance to be heroic rather than merely victims.

The most interesting societies and individuals are forged and hardened through conflict. In contrast, insular infighting is boring and draining.
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betweenford

  • Posts: 149
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2021, 11:44:19 AM »
Wait, all conflict in Allanak originates from relationship/romance politics? Always has been.

triste

  • Posts: 1053
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2021, 11:50:14 AM »
I still want you to play Lady Templar Castratrix or whatever we called her. Your emote with the juggling balls was great.

(One of two things I remember discussing with you on Discord)

Anyway, I want to be clear that I am not bashing any Templars or players here, I am just commenting on the plot's we've seen versus the plots we could have. Laws that relate to larger conflicts and plots rather than laws about whether you can wear nail polish while hunting, plz.
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Maso

  • Posts: 4061
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2021, 12:30:52 PM »
The two types of 'plots' are not mutually exclusive, although I wouldn't really call them both plots. There are actual plots...which come and go...and then there is just the general day to day life and maintaining an atmosphere of, ya know, oppression.
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williamson

  • Posts: 328
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2021, 04:40:34 PM »
It's been a long time since I played a templar. However, I bet they still don't get paid. Thus, to get income, templar's must tax (aka legal stealing), accept bribes, or confiscate from people. This is done on purpose to create conflict and interaction between the PC templars and other PCs. This isn't a problem of Allanak. It's by design. There is a delicate policital circular ecosystem in the city. Templars have tons of power but need money. Nobles have money but require servants to get anything done. GMHs make money but need hunters to provide materials. Independents have tons of freedom and can make a lot of money but need political protection or it all vanishes. Criminals leech off this circle, but face retribution without gangs or kickbacks to look the other way.

I feel pretty confident that the PC templars are heavily scrutinized and observed by the staff. They are by design the bullies of Allanak. Anytime you interact with them and survive. You won the encounter. I'd wager that the previously mentioned examples of bribing templars to harass half elves or brunettes is very rare. If there is a reason you're being harassed by a templar, there is likely a reason. Perhaps you are a subhuman, a tribal, speak with a foreign accent, have tattoos on your hand, or show disrespect? These are all legitimate IC reasons for you to help a templar buy another brick of spice for the Fale party. If a templar randomly grabs you off the street and executes you, I hope they'll give you the satisfaction of a Red Wedding ending...muttering that the Lannister's send their regards right before the beep.

If this, as a player, drives you mad, you have options. You can play elsewhere, play a human, show respect, or join a clan with polical power to protect you. You can even run or fight. However, there will be consequences.

I would suggest trying to learn to RP a good loser as a player. I once received a kudos from a staff member for playing along and being captured when someone hiding popped out and held a knife to my throat. I could have resisted and likely defeated the assailant but I wanted to see what happened. I ended up getting an opportunity to join the Guild...

"Let sleeping characters sleep naked." -Azroen

Magnate

  • Posts: 331
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2021, 01:18:31 AM »
After reading these posts it becomes rather clear that part of the reason is because people assume that they know every angle or what is going on behind the scenes. The worlds is alive with (v)NPCs, not just PCs. This includes templar's superiors (NPCs mostly), which are active with templars and have been an active part of their play for years. There are also checks and balances within the templarate based on their own internal ranking system, political influence, wealth, titles, ministries, and so on.

When I play these roles, and I have had several nobles and templars since I have been playing in arm, I actually go to great lengths to NOT PK people or ruin their fun. But you HAVE to play according to the documentation. For example, if you mouth off to a templar you SHOULD expect bad stuff to happen. If you ignore the game world, the game world is not obligated to ignore you.

Stop assuming. More is likely going on than you know about. A lot more.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 2310
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2021, 01:45:49 AM »

When I play these roles, and I have had several nobles and templars since I have been playing in arm, I actually go to great lengths to NOT PK people or ruin their fun. But you HAVE to play according to the documentation. For example, if you mouth off to a templar you SHOULD expect bad stuff to happen. If you ignore the game world, the game world is not obligated to ignore you.


I'd like to highlight this, THIS is what I was saying kinda. Beg and scrape, not because it gets the Templars rocks off but because its the normal response to being held in a cell, surrounded by 8 soldiers and a magickal quarter-god who are asking you to hand over all your things and tell them where you stashed the spice.

triste

  • Posts: 1053
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2021, 09:31:28 AM »
And just a quick note for new players because I've seen one or two hastily quit after veterans start describing Armageddon as Begging and Groveling the Game: also pay heed to people's advice to mix up what you play. Starting out I wasn't used to the setting and got executed a lot. When I came back after a many year break, I got executed a lot. It was exhausting because (as I have joked before), I am uh, a switch, and I don't like losing ALL the time. In both cases breaking the rut by playing a tribal concept or other concept not beholden to the laws of Allanak helped me a lot. Yes, in Allanak you have to learn the laws, hierarchy and social rules. It can get exhausting trying to "fit in" and climb this hierarchy when missteps often mean death. So mix it up to avoid that exhaustion.

The common narrative that part of learning how to play Armageddon is learning how to lose, while more or less true, doesn't sound sexy. It can read and feel like lame hazing. Even though it is setting based and not hazing, if you find yourself feeling pissy because it feels that way, just remember to mix it up.
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Patuk

  • Posts: 4215
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2021, 10:16:38 AM »
The common narrative that part of learning how to play Armageddon is learning how to lose, while more or less true, doesn't sound sexy. It can read and feel like lame hazing. Even though it is setting based and not hazing, if you find yourself feeling pissy because it feels that way, just remember to mix it up.

And many people do. So many, in fact, that the city really does feel depopulated at times.
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You take the last bite of your scooby snack.
This tastes like ordinary meat.
There is nothing left now.

triste

  • Posts: 1053
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2021, 10:53:23 AM »
The common narrative that part of learning how to play Armageddon is learning how to lose, while more or less true, doesn't sound sexy. It can read and feel like lame hazing. Even though it is setting based and not hazing, if you find yourself feeling pissy because it feels that way, just remember to mix it up.

And many people do. So many, in fact, that the city really does feel depopulated at times.

That isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as there is a good alternative social hub. It can be Tuluk, Luir's, Red Storm, anywhere. The best time I had playing this game in the past three years was when Morin's was active, and they don't even have apartments there.
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Is Friday

  • Posts: 6607
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2021, 11:16:00 AM »
I don't think the issue is players of Templars. They're following documentation. The structure of that documentation is the problem because there is no counter-balance. Either change the docs or provide a counter-balance, I think.

Tuluk was closed without a counter-balance in place for southern Templars and we're still trying to figure that out. Whatever is going on with the game right now isn't ideal in regards to their dynamic with the rest of the playerbase. It's just not as fun imo.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 11:21:45 AM by Is Friday »
And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.

triste

  • Posts: 1053
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2021, 11:21:52 AM »
Agreed. I believe playerbase size was cited as a reason for it closing.

We had more than 80 players on more than two hours last night by imprecise tracking. Is that enough to reopen Tuluk (or similar)?

http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-sanvean.html

I'll step back and shut up now that my agenda is well promoted <3
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Malken

  • Posts: 9240
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2021, 11:53:44 AM »
Tuluk was closed without a counter-balance in place for southern Templars and we're still trying to figure that out. Whatever is going on with the game right now isn't ideal in regards to their dynamic with the rest of the playerbase. It's just not as fun imo.

I think they expected that everyone would just go and play in Allanak and that the noble houses would be full of leaders offering that counter-balance.

From what I've heard/read, it seems like a majority of players went to Luir's/Red Storm instead, or like in my case, went back to WoW.

I'll be honest, I've held back on creating a new character hoping that the RPT would be the re-opening of Tuluk, or at the very least tell me where to go play to be in the center of a cool new plot, but again, from what I've read, it doesn't seem to be the case at all so at this point I really have no urge to return to Armageddon even tho I have the full summer ahead of me (yay being a teacher!)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 11:55:46 AM by Malken »
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

valeria

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Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2021, 12:15:29 PM »
Ya'll, Tuluk was way more plot-stifling than Allanak because of way-too-involved templars.  If this is your peeve, that's probably not the solution you are looking for.

I'm on Team Kill Both Cities and Top-Down Aspects of the GMH, No Glass Ceilings, Let's Have a Real Player-Based Collaborative Roleplaying Game. 

This is a very long team name, but I'm partial to it.  Make the enemies really each other, as run and played by each other, and the outside groups people can't play (mantis invasion, gith invasion, kryl invasion, gaj invasion, idk).  No laws no masters.

I feel like it would cater to the strengths of MUDs over graphical games, like being able to literally change the world and having a dynamic, player-interactive focus.  And it would step away from things that other types of games can do better, like having a top-down story and a mostly static setting.  But inertia is hard to overcome, and I'm sure some people really like or are invested in the status quo, so I don't expect this to happen.
Templars are basically if judge Dredd was a Cardassian

Malken

  • Posts: 9240
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2021, 12:26:04 PM »
Ya'll, Tuluk was way more plot-stifling than Allanak because of way-too-involved templars.  If this is your peeve, that's probably not the solution you are looking for.

That's an easy fix. Also, didn't they nerf some of the northern templars' plot-stifling powers?

I'm on Team Kill Both Cities and Top-Down Aspects of the GMH, No Glass Ceilings, Let's Have a Real Player-Based Collaborative Roleplaying Game. 

Yeah, that was supposed to be Arm 2.0  :'(
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

Patuk

  • Posts: 4215
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2021, 12:57:00 PM »
Ya'll, Tuluk was way more plot-stifling than Allanak because of way-too-involved templars.  If this is your peeve, that's probably not the solution you are looking for.
That's an easy fix. Also, didn't they nerf some of the northern templars' plot-stifling powers?

Some of these were nerfed, if not to the degree that I'd have preferred. Psionics as a tool that Templars can (legally) use in general is extremely bad design, though.
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You take the last bite of your scooby snack.
This tastes like ordinary meat.
There is nothing left now.

betweenford

  • Posts: 149
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2021, 01:11:28 PM »
Allanak smells bad. Templar players smell even worse.
Noble players? Don't get me started.

Brytta Léofa

  • Posts: 857
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2021, 01:29:45 PM »
Even on a bad day, 95% of Armageddon players (and probably 100% of sponsored roles) are trying to have fun and trying to create fun for players around them.

Even on occasions that's not the case, the path of Enjoyment and Not Ragequitting is to attribute your problems to setting ambiguity, misunderstanding, and systemic incentives.
<Maso> I thought you were like...a real sweet lady.

Is Friday

  • Posts: 6607
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2021, 01:39:07 PM »
Ya'll, Tuluk was way more plot-stifling than Allanak because of way-too-involved templars.  If this is your peeve, that's probably not the solution you are looking for.
Tuluk in the 2 years prior to closure was actually playable and fun, believe it or not. No Lirathans was a big part of that. The psionics used thereafter were limited so far as I'm aware.
And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.

Ender

  • Posts: 2005
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2021, 02:53:08 PM »
Ya'll, Tuluk was way more plot-stifling than Allanak because of way-too-involved templars.  If this is your peeve, that's probably not the solution you are looking for.
Tuluk in the 2 years prior to closure was actually playable and fun, believe it or not. No Lirathans was a big part of that. The psionics used thereafter were limited so far as I'm aware.

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Is Friday

  • Posts: 6607
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2021, 04:21:44 PM »
It really do be like that sometimes.
And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.

triste

  • Posts: 1053
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2021, 04:24:56 PM »
So what is our mechanism for getting what we want here besides whining/reminiscing for a literal decade.

One possible mechanism is keeping a positive attitude and voting!!

http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-sanvean.html

But like, besides that.
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Malken

  • Posts: 9240
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2021, 04:36:28 PM »
So what is our mechanism for getting what we want here besides whining/reminiscing for a literal decade.

We make Is Friday apologize to Nyr and invite him back.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

triste

  • Posts: 1053
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2021, 04:40:34 PM »
Aaaw sometimes you guys warm my heart.
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