Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => World Discussion => Topic started by: Iiyola on May 08, 2021, 05:55:08 PM

Title: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Iiyola on May 08, 2021, 05:55:08 PM
In case anyone overlooked it (I certainly did, despite being a seasoned player), here are the Official Laws of Allanak, passed by the Senate over the years:

High Treason-
-Knowingly harboring or aiding a mindbender.
-Knowingly harboring or aiding a sorcerer
-Conspiring against the Highlord

Treason-
-Knowingly harboring or aiding a nilazi
-Knowledge of spoken or written Tatlum
-Murdering a noble peer or Templar
-Harboring or aiding an ungemmed elementalist

Common Crimes-
---Knowledge of writing
---Ungemmed elementalism (refusing a gem)
---Striking one of noble blood
-Creation or summoning of magickal constructs or creatures within the city
-Attempting to free a slave or aid in the escape of a slave
-Murder
-Trespassing in the Templar's and Noble's quarter
-Assault
-Assault

Contraband-
-Magickal artifacts
-Writing, unless with express permission of a noble or templar
-Possession of Militia uniforms or weapons
-Poisoned weapons and poisons
-Lockpicks
-Spice

*High Treason crimes apply even to the Templars themselves, as well as all
less important individuals.  Punishment for High Treason is death.

*Treason crimes apply to the Nobles themselves, as well as all less
important individuals.  Punishment for Treason is death.

*Common crimes apply only to commoners, and are ranked in order of severity
of the crime. Punishment for crimes noted with -- is death.

Contraband only applies to commoners, and is ranked in order of severity
of the crime.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Veselka on May 08, 2021, 09:32:46 PM
RE: Common Crime

The wording is a little weird, and it should be like '>>> is punishable by death', instead of '--' because there's only '-' and '---' but not '--' and yeah. But really, any crime can be punishable by death depending on the situation, and commoners don't really (typically) have much of a ground to stand on.

It would be nice to have a blurb that is like 'Crime and Justice are not similar in any way to modern concepts of crime committed and justice performed. Templars are the judge, jury, and executioner in all ways, and offending parties typically have no recourse against them. Commoners would be aware that even if they haven't committed a crime, a Templar can decide they have and act accordingly. Employment to organizations such as the T'zai Byn, the Greater Merchant Houses, and the Noble Houses often provide more leeway when it comes to crime, but that leeway is case by case and depends on the crime committed and by whom.'
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Veselka on May 08, 2021, 09:38:35 PM
Also, to add...Though these are the laws as passed by the Senate, a Templar can ostensibly tell you 'That is against the law' and no Commoner's response should be 'But the Senate said only X Y Z and a b c are against the law...!'. Whatever a Templar says is against the law, is against the law, until another Templar that's higher ranked (either socially or actually) says otherwise.

There are intervening factors -- Nobles might step in (if they decide there's some political play doing so). Another Templar might step in. A Big Daddy Commoner might step in (Maybe like a Crew Leader of Salarr intervening on behalf of their employee), but I'd say it's super case by case.

A Commoner's only recourse against a Templar telling them they are breaking the law by doing X is to grovel, really, and maybe if they have friends in high places, go after them after the fact. Such is Zalanthas!
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 08, 2021, 09:48:49 PM
An important Law Zero to remember in Allanak, is that the law is whatever the ranking Templar within arm's reach says it is.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Narf on May 08, 2021, 10:00:39 PM
Also, to add...Though these are the laws as passed by the Senate, a Templar can ostensibly tell you 'That is against the law' and no Commoner's response should be 'But the Senate said only X Y Z and a b c are against the law...!'. Whatever a Templar says is against the law, is against the law, until another Templar that's higher ranked (either socially or actually) says otherwise.

There are intervening factors -- Nobles might step in (if they decide there's some political play doing so). Another Templar might step in. A Big Daddy Commoner might step in (Maybe like a Crew Leader of Salarr intervening on behalf of their employee), but I'd say it's super case by case.

A Commoner's only recourse against a Templar telling them they are breaking the law by doing X is to grovel, really, and maybe if they have friends in high places, go after them after the fact. Such is Zalanthas!

That's useful on the high end, but the militia enforces the laws too and they'd probably like some guidelines for what they should and shouldn't be planting evidence for.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Iiyola on May 08, 2021, 10:04:00 PM
RE: Common Crime

The wording is a little weird, and it should be like '>>> is punishable by death', instead of '--' because there's only '-' and '---' but not '--' and yeah.

Eh, I literally copied it from the rumor board.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Iiyola on May 08, 2021, 10:10:38 PM
An important Law Zero to remember in Allanak, is that the law is whatever the ranking Templar within arm's reach says it is.
Agreed, but in some cases, just because they could implement a law/rule... should they? If this means its not benefitting the game/roleplay? And by benefitting I mean increasing potential for roleplay/scenes instead of chasing off PC's. Its a fine line at times.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Shalooonsh on May 08, 2021, 11:07:04 PM
An important Law Zero to remember in Allanak, is that the law is whatever the ranking Templar within arm's reach says it is.
Agreed, but in some cases, just because they could implement a law/rule... should they? If this means its not benefitting the game/roleplay? And by benefitting I mean increasing potential for roleplay/scenes instead of chasing off PC's. Its a fine line at times.

Yes.  They absolutely should.  That's literally part of the role of being a Lord Templar.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Wday on May 09, 2021, 08:04:04 AM
Seems lately templars have no one ranking over them to report to or watching over them and they kill roles and rp. This means icly they are fierce but OOCLY a deadend to role play around, unless you are in their we like you circle.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Lotion on May 09, 2021, 08:35:48 AM
Templars are basically if judge Dredd was a Cardassian
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Lotion on May 09, 2021, 08:36:35 AM
Seems lately templars have no one ranking over them to report to or watching over them and they kill roles and rp. This means icly they are fierce but OOCLY a deadend to role play around, unless you are in their we like you circle.
If someone sucks just pk them
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: williamson on May 09, 2021, 10:52:30 AM
Quote
Templars   (Classes)

In all city-states which have risen (and, in some cases, fallen) since the departure of the Dragon from the Known World, the Kings have made use of warrior-priests as a force of control and order in their domains. These select people are called templars in both of the major city-states, Allanak and Tuluk.

The job of a templar is to maintain law in the city which he/she serves. More precisely, s/he is to carry out the orders of the King. All of a templar's power comes from above, either from higher ranking templars or from the King of the city. These powers might be magicks, knowledge, or any number of favours or privileges. One thing remains common: all templars are exempt from the laws of the city they serve, and this has led to much corruption within the ranks of Templars.

In Allanak, it is not unusual to see a templar bully, steal, coerce, or bribe to get his/her own way. Templars often slay persons who do not immediately obey them. There is, however, usually at least as much tension between templars as there is between templars and the populace of the city.

In Tuluk, rule over the populace by the combined templarate is based more on loyalty to the Sun King than fear of the templarate itself. Tuluki Templars are typically less brutal than those of Allanak, viewing public executions and displays of violence for personal crimes as a vulgar Southern practice. In many cases, they find it preferable to simply cause the perpetrators of serious crimes and personal offenses to disappear.

Templars are the only guild which are automatically employed. They serve their King and their city and their own selfish interests. There are no skills or magicks that are universally common to all templars; templars have their abilities granted or taken away at the discretion of their superiors (and, especially, at the pleasure or displeasure of their King).
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Patuk on May 09, 2021, 11:20:12 AM
Templars can do what they want, yes - lord knows Tuluk isn't there to keep them busy, nor is the amount of big name sorcs and such as big as it has been.

Fortunately, you can also do what you want, which includes playing elsewhere entirely and ignoring their existence. Judging by the degree to which some places see play, many people choose exactly that option :)
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Fernandezj on May 09, 2021, 12:16:43 PM
This turned in the "Allanak Problem" thread really fast.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Is Friday on May 09, 2021, 01:30:59 PM
The way Templars are designed is kind of unfun to play around 90% of the time, yeah. The staff defense of "this is how they are meant to be played" ignores that the city empties out in response to aggressive Templar behavior all the time.

I don't see why that's seen as "good". We shouldn't be playing with antagonists where the most common response is to just abandon RPing in the area. Seems counter intuitive to a role-playing game.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Furious George on May 09, 2021, 02:28:05 PM
The way Templars are designed is kind of unfun to play around 90% of the time, yeah. The staff defense of "this is how they are meant to be played" ignores that the city empties out in response to aggressive Templar behavior all the time.

I don't see why that's seen as "good". We shouldn't be playing with antagonists where the most common response is to just abandon RPing in the area. Seems counter intuitive to a role-playing game.

I think the design works if there's a political counter-balance to them in the form of active and regular playing Highborn.  Allanak is a very big sandbox, and it's only fun to play in if there is a variety of toys to enjoy.  Three templars seem standard, anywhere between two and like six highborn have been known to be a thing before.  It's like trickle down economics, in some fashion, the more alternatives for protection, manipulation and coercion, the more enjoyable the environment is overall.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Patuk on May 09, 2021, 04:00:39 PM
The way Templars are designed is kind of unfun to play around 90% of the time, yeah. The staff defense of "this is how they are meant to be played" ignores that the city empties out in response to aggressive Templar behavior all the time.

I don't see why that's seen as "good". We shouldn't be playing with antagonists where the most common response is to just abandon RPing in the area. Seems counter intuitive to a role-playing game.

I think the design works if there's a political counter-balance to them in the form of active and regular playing Highborn.  Allanak is a very big sandbox, and it's only fun to play in if there is a variety of toys to enjoy.  Three templars seem standard, anywhere between two and like six highborn have been known to be a thing before.  It's like trickle down economics, in some fashion, the more alternatives for protection, manipulation and coercion, the more enjoyable the environment is overall.

Big if. How often do you see it work out that way?
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Hauwke on May 09, 2021, 04:39:05 PM
The way Templars are designed is kind of unfun to play around 90% of the time, yeah. The staff defense of "this is how they are meant to be played" ignores that the city empties out in response to aggressive Templar behavior all the time.

I don't see why that's seen as "good". We shouldn't be playing with antagonists where the most common response is to just abandon RPing in the area. Seems counter intuitive to a role-playing game.

An enormous part of the problem is that many tout their ability to RP, but actually what is happening is that they just play themself and when bad things start happening they get upset because they don't want to lose their PC.

Fear of losing a PC is fine, what is not fine is going way out of the scope of a PC because the game world is being well represented by an aggressive Templar. Should that Templar being randomly killing characters? Probably not, because thats just shitty. But they should definately be taxing every random elf they see.

Calm down people, bad things can happen and you can lose and it's still fun.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Furious George on May 09, 2021, 04:57:45 PM
Big if. How often do you see it work out that way?

All the time, with some recent dry-spell exceptions.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Maso on May 09, 2021, 05:08:49 PM
Calm down people, bad things can happen and you can lose and it's still fun.

Just this, basically.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Brytta Léofa on May 09, 2021, 05:11:11 PM
Something I'm thinking about:
- Is it fun to get raided in the desert?
- Is it fun to get arbitrary-law-enforced in the city?
- If the answers are different, why?

My own preliminary answers are "yes", "no", and "I don't know." :-)
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Lotion on May 09, 2021, 06:47:04 PM
getting raided is more fun that being templar'd because you can just ride away and then begin a desert pursuit and if you make it out you can still fuck around in the desert
if a templar is like hey its time for us to talk you basically either talk or fuck off from allanak for an irl month
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Patuk on May 09, 2021, 07:48:06 PM
The raider also had to work for his sheer prowess, and doesn't have an army of NPC soldiers, gemmed, and AoD PCs with nothing else to do at their beck and call.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Hauwke on May 09, 2021, 09:16:55 PM
It certainly seems to me that the difference is one of respect.

People respect raiders, they respect that they can just arrow spam you to death and that somehow that furthers a plot. Not every raider is this noble Robbin Hood. Not all are well Roleplayed.

They do not respect that perhaps a Templar has a reason, far more in fact than the raider whose only reason is "hur dur, raidur", to throw your PC in prison and torture them. It's entirely possible the Templar was bribed to target breeds this month, perhaps he has been bothered by the other players of breeds this month and so is being extra because it makes legitimate sense. And sometimes, the player is just being a dick because they can.

Having played this game for years now, almost none of us are even half as good at politicking as we think we are. We are human, real people and not a book character. We make mistakes and piss people off. We say the wrong thing.

Relax fellas, your 12th human stalker in a row isn't as special as you feel it is.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Patuk on May 09, 2021, 09:33:52 PM
It certainly seems to me that the difference is one of respect.

People respect raiders, they respect that they can just arrow spam you to death and that somehow that furthers a plot. Not every raider is this noble Robbin Hood. Not all are well Roleplayed.

They do not respect that perhaps a Templar has a reason, far more in fact than the raider whose only reason is "hur dur, raidur", to throw your PC in prison and torture them. It's entirely possible the Templar was bribed to target breeds this month, perhaps he has been bothered by the other players of breeds this month and so is being extra because it makes legitimate sense. And sometimes, the player is just being a dick because they can.

Having played this game for years now, almost none of us are even half as good at politicking as we think we are. We are human, real people and not a book character. We make mistakes and piss people off. We say the wrong thing.

Relax fellas, your 12th human stalker in a row isn't as special as you feel it is.

My 12th stalker, or even someone's 500th stalker, is special enough that death by 'I was bribed to target brunettes this month' is still too bad for them.

Or torture, for that matter. Don't even mention fucking tax - I wish things would stop at that.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Maso on May 10, 2021, 06:12:38 AM
I don't think anyone is even talking about templars going around randomly killing commoners... Just... laying down some law in general?

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but the few times I have had templar attention turned on my PC's are often some of the must fun scenes I've managed to have in Southside 'Nak (they were definitely not fun for my characters, one of whom ended up super dead...but fun and exciting for me, the player...).

I play Arm because I like the drama, the conflict, the edge-of-your-seat fear for your character... Templar's are about the scariest thing in 'Nak. This game isn't all about happy-fun-party-cuddle-time, that shit is for RL.

Bad for your character != Bad for RP.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: triste on May 10, 2021, 09:44:23 AM
Kudos to the person who said this was the Allanaki Problem thread all over.

I'll transfer the main useful insight from there to here. The game has suffered for years from a lack of broad, self sustaining conflict such as what we once had when Tuluk was open.

Instead of this weird notion that "Templars targeting their own citizens arbitrarily, like brunettes/breeds in the examples in this thread, is good roleplay and a great plot," let's remember that the better plot always was and has been, "Southern Templars locked in conflict with Northern Templars mobilize allies to fight with them while dealing with spies and intrigue on their home turf."

The first plot feels like a simulation of school yard politics. Oh no this one girl on the school yard is really rich and you need to be nice to her or all the other rich girls will hate you, eek! The second plot is more intriguing and the stuff of novels and epics; it gives less powerful characters the chance to be heroic rather than merely victims.

The most interesting societies and individuals are forged and hardened through conflict. In contrast, insular infighting is boring and draining.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: betweenford on May 10, 2021, 11:44:19 AM
Wait, all conflict in Allanak originates from relationship/romance politics? Always has been.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: triste on May 10, 2021, 11:50:14 AM
I still want you to play Lady Templar Castratrix or whatever we called her. Your emote with the juggling balls was great.

(One of two things I remember discussing with you on Discord)

Anyway, I want to be clear that I am not bashing any Templars or players here, I am just commenting on the plot's we've seen versus the plots we could have. Laws that relate to larger conflicts and plots rather than laws about whether you can wear nail polish while hunting, plz.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Maso on May 10, 2021, 12:30:52 PM
The two types of 'plots' are not mutually exclusive, although I wouldn't really call them both plots. There are actual plots...which come and go...and then there is just the general day to day life and maintaining an atmosphere of, ya know, oppression.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: williamson on May 10, 2021, 04:40:34 PM
It's been a long time since I played a templar. However, I bet they still don't get paid. Thus, to get income, templar's must tax (aka legal stealing), accept bribes, or confiscate from people. This is done on purpose to create conflict and interaction between the PC templars and other PCs. This isn't a problem of Allanak. It's by design. There is a delicate policital circular ecosystem in the city. Templars have tons of power but need money. Nobles have money but require servants to get anything done. GMHs make money but need hunters to provide materials. Independents have tons of freedom and can make a lot of money but need political protection or it all vanishes. Criminals leech off this circle, but face retribution without gangs or kickbacks to look the other way.

I feel pretty confident that the PC templars are heavily scrutinized and observed by the staff. They are by design the bullies of Allanak. Anytime you interact with them and survive. You won the encounter. I'd wager that the previously mentioned examples of bribing templars to harass half elves or brunettes is very rare. If there is a reason you're being harassed by a templar, there is likely a reason. Perhaps you are a subhuman, a tribal, speak with a foreign accent, have tattoos on your hand, or show disrespect? These are all legitimate IC reasons for you to help a templar buy another brick of spice for the Fale party. If a templar randomly grabs you off the street and executes you, I hope they'll give you the satisfaction of a Red Wedding ending...muttering that the Lannister's send their regards right before the beep.

If this, as a player, drives you mad, you have options. You can play elsewhere, play a human, show respect, or join a clan with polical power to protect you. You can even run or fight. However, there will be consequences.

I would suggest trying to learn to RP a good loser as a player. I once received a kudos from a staff member for playing along and being captured when someone hiding popped out and held a knife to my throat. I could have resisted and likely defeated the assailant but I wanted to see what happened. I ended up getting an opportunity to join the Guild...

Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Magnate on May 11, 2021, 01:18:31 AM
After reading these posts it becomes rather clear that part of the reason is because people assume that they know every angle or what is going on behind the scenes. The worlds is alive with (v)NPCs, not just PCs. This includes templar's superiors (NPCs mostly), which are active with templars and have been an active part of their play for years. There are also checks and balances within the templarate based on their own internal ranking system, political influence, wealth, titles, ministries, and so on.

When I play these roles, and I have had several nobles and templars since I have been playing in arm, I actually go to great lengths to NOT PK people or ruin their fun. But you HAVE to play according to the documentation. For example, if you mouth off to a templar you SHOULD expect bad stuff to happen. If you ignore the game world, the game world is not obligated to ignore you.

Stop assuming. More is likely going on than you know about. A lot more.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Hauwke on May 11, 2021, 01:45:49 AM

When I play these roles, and I have had several nobles and templars since I have been playing in arm, I actually go to great lengths to NOT PK people or ruin their fun. But you HAVE to play according to the documentation. For example, if you mouth off to a templar you SHOULD expect bad stuff to happen. If you ignore the game world, the game world is not obligated to ignore you.


I'd like to highlight this, THIS is what I was saying kinda. Beg and scrape, not because it gets the Templars rocks off but because its the normal response to being held in a cell, surrounded by 8 soldiers and a magickal quarter-god who are asking you to hand over all your things and tell them where you stashed the spice.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: triste on May 11, 2021, 09:31:28 AM
And just a quick note for new players because I've seen one or two hastily quit after veterans start describing Armageddon as Begging and Groveling the Game: also pay heed to people's advice to mix up what you play. Starting out I wasn't used to the setting and got executed a lot. When I came back after a many year break, I got executed a lot. It was exhausting because (as I have joked before), I am uh, a switch, and I don't like losing ALL the time. In both cases breaking the rut by playing a tribal concept or other concept not beholden to the laws of Allanak helped me a lot. Yes, in Allanak you have to learn the laws, hierarchy and social rules. It can get exhausting trying to "fit in" and climb this hierarchy when missteps often mean death. So mix it up to avoid that exhaustion.

The common narrative that part of learning how to play Armageddon is learning how to lose, while more or less true, doesn't sound sexy. It can read and feel like lame hazing. Even though it is setting based and not hazing, if you find yourself feeling pissy because it feels that way, just remember to mix it up.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Patuk on May 11, 2021, 10:16:38 AM
The common narrative that part of learning how to play Armageddon is learning how to lose, while more or less true, doesn't sound sexy. It can read and feel like lame hazing. Even though it is setting based and not hazing, if you find yourself feeling pissy because it feels that way, just remember to mix it up.

And many people do. So many, in fact, that the city really does feel depopulated at times.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: triste on May 11, 2021, 10:53:23 AM
The common narrative that part of learning how to play Armageddon is learning how to lose, while more or less true, doesn't sound sexy. It can read and feel like lame hazing. Even though it is setting based and not hazing, if you find yourself feeling pissy because it feels that way, just remember to mix it up.

And many people do. So many, in fact, that the city really does feel depopulated at times.

That isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as there is a good alternative social hub. It can be Tuluk, Luir's, Red Storm, anywhere. The best time I had playing this game in the past three years was when Morin's was active, and they don't even have apartments there.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Is Friday on May 11, 2021, 11:16:00 AM
I don't think the issue is players of Templars. They're following documentation. The structure of that documentation is the problem because there is no counter-balance. Either change the docs or provide a counter-balance, I think.

Tuluk was closed without a counter-balance in place for southern Templars and we're still trying to figure that out. Whatever is going on with the game right now isn't ideal in regards to their dynamic with the rest of the playerbase. It's just not as fun imo.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: triste on May 11, 2021, 11:21:52 AM
Agreed. I believe playerbase size was cited as a reason for it closing.

We had more than 80 players on more than two hours last night by imprecise tracking. Is that enough to reopen Tuluk (or similar)?

http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-sanvean.html

I'll step back and shut up now that my agenda is well promoted <3
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Malken on May 11, 2021, 11:53:44 AM
Tuluk was closed without a counter-balance in place for southern Templars and we're still trying to figure that out. Whatever is going on with the game right now isn't ideal in regards to their dynamic with the rest of the playerbase. It's just not as fun imo.

I think they expected that everyone would just go and play in Allanak and that the noble houses would be full of leaders offering that counter-balance.

From what I've heard/read, it seems like a majority of players went to Luir's/Red Storm instead, or like in my case, went back to WoW.

I'll be honest, I've held back on creating a new character hoping that the RPT would be the re-opening of Tuluk, or at the very least tell me where to go play to be in the center of a cool new plot, but again, from what I've read, it doesn't seem to be the case at all so at this point I really have no urge to return to Armageddon even tho I have the full summer ahead of me (yay being a teacher!)
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: valeria on May 11, 2021, 12:15:29 PM
Ya'll, Tuluk was way more plot-stifling than Allanak because of way-too-involved templars.  If this is your peeve, that's probably not the solution you are looking for.

I'm on Team Kill Both Cities and Top-Down Aspects of the GMH, No Glass Ceilings, Let's Have a Real Player-Based Collaborative Roleplaying Game. 

This is a very long team name, but I'm partial to it.  Make the enemies really each other, as run and played by each other, and the outside groups people can't play (mantis invasion, gith invasion, kryl invasion, gaj invasion, idk).  No laws no masters.

I feel like it would cater to the strengths of MUDs over graphical games, like being able to literally change the world and having a dynamic, player-interactive focus.  And it would step away from things that other types of games can do better, like having a top-down story and a mostly static setting.  But inertia is hard to overcome, and I'm sure some people really like or are invested in the status quo, so I don't expect this to happen.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Malken on May 11, 2021, 12:26:04 PM
Ya'll, Tuluk was way more plot-stifling than Allanak because of way-too-involved templars.  If this is your peeve, that's probably not the solution you are looking for.

That's an easy fix. Also, didn't they nerf some of the northern templars' plot-stifling powers?

I'm on Team Kill Both Cities and Top-Down Aspects of the GMH, No Glass Ceilings, Let's Have a Real Player-Based Collaborative Roleplaying Game. 

Yeah, that was supposed to be Arm 2.0  :'(
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Patuk on May 11, 2021, 12:57:00 PM
Ya'll, Tuluk was way more plot-stifling than Allanak because of way-too-involved templars.  If this is your peeve, that's probably not the solution you are looking for.
That's an easy fix. Also, didn't they nerf some of the northern templars' plot-stifling powers?

Some of these were nerfed, if not to the degree that I'd have preferred. Psionics as a tool that Templars can (legally) use in general is extremely bad design, though.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: betweenford on May 11, 2021, 01:11:28 PM
Allanak smells bad. Templar players smell even worse.
Noble players? Don't get me started.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Brytta Léofa on May 11, 2021, 01:29:45 PM
Even on a bad day, 95% of Armageddon players (and probably 100% of sponsored roles) are trying to have fun and trying to create fun for players around them.

Even on occasions that's not the case, the path of Enjoyment and Not Ragequitting is to attribute your problems to setting ambiguity, misunderstanding, and systemic incentives.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Is Friday on May 11, 2021, 01:39:07 PM
Ya'll, Tuluk was way more plot-stifling than Allanak because of way-too-involved templars.  If this is your peeve, that's probably not the solution you are looking for.
Tuluk in the 2 years prior to closure was actually playable and fun, believe it or not. No Lirathans was a big part of that. The psionics used thereafter were limited so far as I'm aware.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Ender on May 11, 2021, 02:53:08 PM
Ya'll, Tuluk was way more plot-stifling than Allanak because of way-too-involved templars.  If this is your peeve, that's probably not the solution you are looking for.
Tuluk in the 2 years prior to closure was actually playable and fun, believe it or not. No Lirathans was a big part of that. The psionics used thereafter were limited so far as I'm aware.

(https://i.imgflip.com/595hsy.jpg)
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Is Friday on May 11, 2021, 04:21:44 PM
It really do be like that sometimes.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: triste on May 11, 2021, 04:24:56 PM
So what is our mechanism for getting what we want here besides whining/reminiscing for a literal decade.

One possible mechanism is keeping a positive attitude and voting!!

http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-sanvean.html

But like, besides that.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Malken on May 11, 2021, 04:36:28 PM
So what is our mechanism for getting what we want here besides whining/reminiscing for a literal decade.

We make Is Friday apologize to Nyr and invite him back.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: triste on May 11, 2021, 04:40:34 PM
Aaaw sometimes you guys warm my heart.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Narf on May 11, 2021, 04:43:23 PM
Some actionable ideas:

1) App a templar and try a different approach, one that both respects the documents but seems like it might be more fun than past approaches.

2) App a templar that's still a bastard, but just not a very competent one (this has been done in the past. How did it work out for people?)

3) Create an in game organization who's specific purpose is to provide protection (at a hefty cost) to commoners. The Guild protects people from themselves, the Byn protects people from the wilderness. This clan protects people from the Militia/templars (probably through a hefty set of bribes).

Just spitballing some ideas.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Narf on May 11, 2021, 04:59:53 PM

I'm on Team Kill Both Cities and Top-Down Aspects of the GMH, No Glass Ceilings, Let's Have a Real Player-Based Collaborative Roleplaying Game. 

This is a very long team name, but I'm partial to it.  Make the enemies really each other, as run and played by each other, and the outside groups people can't play (mantis invasion, gith invasion, kryl invasion, gaj invasion, idk).  No laws no masters.

I feel like it would cater to the strengths of MUDs over graphical games, like being able to literally change the world and having a dynamic, player-interactive focus.  And it would step away from things that other types of games can do better, like having a top-down story and a mostly static setting.  But inertia is hard to overcome, and I'm sure some people really like or are invested in the status quo, so I don't expect this to happen.

I think at this point you'd be better off designing a new game from scratch. I'd definitely play it though.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Barsook on May 11, 2021, 05:26:21 PM

I'm on Team Kill Both Cities and Top-Down Aspects of the GMH, No Glass Ceilings, Let's Have a Real Player-Based Collaborative Roleplaying Game. 

This is a very long team name, but I'm partial to it.  Make the enemies really each other, as run and played by each other, and the outside groups people can't play (mantis invasion, gith invasion, kryl invasion, gaj invasion, idk).  No laws no masters.

I feel like it would cater to the strengths of MUDs over graphical games, like being able to literally change the world and having a dynamic, player-interactive focus.  And it would step away from things that other types of games can do better, like having a top-down story and a mostly static setting.  But inertia is hard to overcome, and I'm sure some people really like or are invested in the status quo, so I don't expect this to happen.

I think at this point you'd be better off designing a new game from scratch. I'd definitely play it though.

If it's a MUD, maybe I do have an idea for one that's a RPI.

Not kidding.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 11, 2021, 08:07:01 PM
Tuluk was closed without a counter-balance in place for southern Templars and we're still trying to figure that out. Whatever is going on with the game right now isn't ideal in regards to their dynamic with the rest of the playerbase. It's just not as fun imo.

I think they expected that everyone would just go and play in Allanak and that the noble houses would be full of leaders offering that counter-balance.

From what I've heard/read, it seems like a majority of players went to Luir's/Red Storm instead, or like in my case, went back to WoW.

I'll be honest, I've held back on creating a new character hoping that the RPT would be the re-opening of Tuluk, or at the very least tell me where to go play to be in the center of a cool new plot, but again, from what I've read, it doesn't seem to be the case at all so at this point I really have no urge to return to Armageddon even tho I have the full summer ahead of me (yay being a teacher!)

... if you don't stop fucking off, you're getting an F. You better hand in a paper by 5-15-21, Mr. Malken.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Veselka on May 11, 2021, 10:30:57 PM
Hey, Halaster made it back. Maybe Nyr (and Team Evershine) will someday, too.

Tuluk was definitely in 'The Best Place It Had Been In' before closing. Some things were still super funky (Shadow Artists and Training them for instance), BUT, recent code changes would actually fix that. Bards were weird. I liked so many aspects of Tuluk. Was it imperfect, ugly, bloated, and pretty stupid at times? Of course. But I miss the fuck out of it and if it opened I'd be playing there pretty much exclusively for about 10 RL years.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Iiyola on May 11, 2021, 11:23:18 PM
I don't think the issue is players of Templars. They're following documentation. The structure of that documentation is the problem because there is no counter-balance. Either change the docs or provide a counter-balance, I think.

Tuluk was closed without a counter-balance in place for southern Templars and we're still trying to figure that out. Whatever is going on with the game right now isn't ideal in regards to their dynamic with the rest of the playerbase. It's just not as fun imo.
I think this is the first time I've ever agreed with Friday...
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Brokkr on May 12, 2021, 11:30:49 AM
or at the very least tell me where to go play to be in the center of a cool new plot

It's not like you can't find something like that on this very GDB.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56796.0.html (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56796.0.html)

Quote
Except expect that it be based north of Luirs.
Quote
Except that Northern knowledge would be a plus.
Quote
Please let us know how familiar with the North you are.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56821.0.html (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56821.0.html)

Quote
The very sky to the northwestern region of the Known
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Malken on May 12, 2021, 12:45:24 PM
or at the very least tell me where to go play to be in the center of a cool new plot

It's not like you can't find something like that on this very GDB.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56796.0.html (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56796.0.html)

Quote
Except expect that it be based north of Luirs.
Quote
Except that Northern knowledge would be a plus.
Quote
Please let us know how familiar with the North you are.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56821.0.html (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56821.0.html)

Quote
The very sky to the northwestern region of the Known

Which is exactly why I thought you guys were re-opening Tuluk to play and I was waiting for the RPT to see if that was the case  ;D

But seeing that it's not... Can you start a character in Morin's?

Starting a brand new character when you haven't played in 3+ years and you have no idea what's going on anywhere is frightening... I can only imagine what it's like being a new player!

I still think that IG boards with recruiting posts should be visible on the GDB to give players an idea on where to play next and what kind of character is viable there.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: mansa on May 12, 2021, 12:50:18 PM
... Can you start a character in Morin's?
Yes, you can start in Morin's Village (even as a city elf).

Starting a brand new character when you haven't played in 3+ years and you have no idea what's going on anywhere is frightening... I can only imagine what it's like being a new player!

I loved it, because it became a whole new experience for me to enjoy for the first time, again.


I still think that IG boards with recruiting posts should be visible on the GDB to give players an idea on where to play next and what kind of character is viable there.
That's probably a good, separate, conversation for the GDB!
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: LindseyBalboa on May 12, 2021, 12:59:06 PM
Because for some reason Tuluk came up in this thread (we got 'Allanak problems' and 'Tuluk' now, all someone needs to do is bring up Red Fangs for the Arm Trifecta), I just wanna say:

I'm so glad Tuluk is closed. The last thing this game needs is some city full of convoluted theme that nobody can agree on. "I did Tuluk right but nobody else did" is something I've heard expressed in innumerable ways. "These last two years Tuluk was great but every other year it was pretty shitty but I remember it fondly" is a new sentiment (for me to see, at least), but not a compelling one. Beyond that, Tuluk has changed completely..

However, yeah, there needs to be a real enemy for Allanak, outside of the city. And Luir's needs to be in the middle as it was designed to be, and not a place for GMH to go play noble without worry about templars and actual nobles.

But Allanak was just almost Steinaled. So there's already another power somewhere north that's ready to challenge Allanak, supported by players and staff. As a player that never hung out in Tuluk, I find that 1000x more interesting, and I'm way more excited to learn theme and in-game events at the same time as the rest of the player base than I would be in exploring some dusty ass city that people played in twenty years ago.

(Edited to add: cities aren't even what Allanak is to me personally. Open up more tribes)
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Blackjack on May 13, 2021, 07:29:51 AM
In case anyone overlooked it (I certainly did, despite being a seasoned player), here are the Official Laws of Allanak, passed by the Senate over the years:

High Treason-
-Knowingly harboring or aiding a mindbender.
-Knowingly harboring or aiding a sorcerer
-Conspiring against the Highlord

Treason-
-Knowingly harboring or aiding a nilazi
-Knowledge of spoken or written Tatlum
-Murdering a noble peer or Templar
-Harboring or aiding an ungemmed elementalist

Common Crimes-
---Knowledge of writing
---Ungemmed elementalism (refusing a gem)
---Striking one of noble blood
-Creation or summoning of magickal constructs or creatures within the city
-Having visible spell effects within the city   <------------------------ This needs to be added in the appropriate spot
-Attempting to free a slave or aid in the escape of a slave
-Murder
-Trespassing in the Templar's and Noble's quarter
-Assault
-Assault

Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: valeria on May 13, 2021, 07:36:47 AM
As far as I know, it's any spell effects, not just visible ones.  But that's a really good point.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Hestia on May 13, 2021, 09:03:06 AM
Help file time!
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Crime%20and%20Justice
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Criminal
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Arm%20of%20the%20Dragon
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Templars

Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: triste on May 13, 2021, 10:25:38 AM
But Allanak was just almost Steinaled. So there's already another power somewhere north that's ready to challenge Allanak, supported by players and staff.

'Twould be awesome if this stuck about in a lasting way. In a way new players can even create a character into, as Malken implied. As I mentioned earlier, the best time I had playing in years was when there was a strong oppositional force to Allanak around two or three years ago. I noticed EVERYONE was more active and engaged as a result: Templars, Northern houses / tribes, etc. But right as players were building up something compelling (I remember Kukuali practically had forts out in the North, her own masks and insignia), it all came down, with the majority of players involved killed, the major plot terminated, the pseudo-clan Kukuali and others had formed, just gone.

Don't get me wrong, the RPT terminating this oppositional force was awesome, and I think that was also a recent RPT where we had 70-90 players on. But seeing something that the game desperately needed get wiped out, again, and seeing other "oppositional" clans like the Soh get closed around the same time was disheartening as well.

Again, I wonder why we constantly have players imploring staff for something, being told they can "be the change," and seeing that the result of trying to "be the change" is often failure. Your player made clan gets closed, with little explanation, if you were lucky to form one at all. This thread was possibly started because often when someone tries to be the change, a new law or McGuffin comes around to mess up this player's plan. For instance, I feel if a player tried to set up a rival mercenary group to the Byn, it wouldn't get much support or even be shut down just to more maintainably funnel players to the Byn. This is probably exactly why the Soh was shut down around the time the Crimson Wind reopened, because we only have so much capacity. Which I understand. But isn't it in effect snubbing one group of players for another? Sorry Amon, you're a badass for making a player-made clan, but I am really really fond of Lusts for Blood and the players who made the Soh.

I will say this, I am going to desperately try to be the change on my next character, and I appreciate anyone who plays in the Crimson Wind and other oppositional clans / areas. But on the topic of law and documentation, there isn't really a documented or easy way to get involved with these oppositional groups, so unfortunately new players are often chewed up in the master and servant, meat grinder like environment of Allanak.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Iiyola on May 13, 2021, 10:47:47 AM
Help file time!
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Crime%20and%20Justice
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Criminal
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Arm%20of%20the%20Dragon
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Templars


Thanks Hestia.

Question: when a House which hires gemmed refuses to have their gemmed to do stuff per the request of the Templar, which doesn't go against the House... what are the repercussions? What can a Templar do?

Or when a Templar tells a gemmed not to join a House, or order them to refuse to do a certain task for the House. What can the House do?

I've seen these examples a few years ago IG and I always wondered what exactly can be done in such situations.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Hestia on May 13, 2021, 03:41:43 PM
Help file time!
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Crime%20and%20Justice
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Criminal
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Arm%20of%20the%20Dragon
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Templars


Thanks Hestia.

Question: when a House which hires gemmed refuses to have their gemmed to do stuff per the request of the Templar, which doesn't go against the House... what are the repercussions? What can a Templar do?

Or when a Templar tells a gemmed not to join a House, or order them to refuse to do a certain task for the House. What can the House do?

I've seen these examples a few years ago IG and I always wondered what exactly can be done in such situations.

It really depends on the templar, the house, the noble, the gemmed, the current political flavor, etc.  For example:

Amos the gemmed Drovian wants to serve LT Jimbob.  Lord Smith wants to hire Amos. Amos doesn't want to be disrespectful so he puts it off, until he needs to do something - so he gets in touch with LT Jimbob and says "hey - I wanna work for you but Lord Smith is really pushing for me to work for them. Do you need me?"

Several things could happen next:

Amos tries to double-deal.
Lord Smith changes his mind, or learns that Lt. Jimbob wants to hire Amos, and backs off.
LT Jimbob can't STAND Lord Smith. So LT Jimbob rejects Amos, who is now free to work for whoever is willing to hire him.
Lt. Jimbob can't STAND Amos. So LT Jimbob goes to Lord Smith and says "Hey you should definitely hire Amos, he's ersum."
Lt. Jimbob doesn't care about either of them, so Jimbob tells them both to fuck off.
Lt. Jimbob has no personal opinion of Smith but doesn't trust him. So he tells Amos, "Okay - you work for me. Your task is to get employed by Lord Smith and be my secret spy."

and so on and so forth.

Meanwhile, if you are already working for a house and you're gemmed, the procedure for "dealing with templars" is 100% dependent on your PC boss. If they say "do whatever this templar says, but run away from that templar" then that's their rule. If they say "politely grovel and give him 200 sids to apologize for making him get in touch with me first and then bow and immediately run away" then that's their rule.  If the templar is arresting you, then the templar is arresting you.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: betweenford on May 13, 2021, 03:47:51 PM
Help file time!
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Crime%20and%20Justice
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Criminal
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Arm%20of%20the%20Dragon
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Templars


Thanks Hestia.

Question: when a House which hires gemmed refuses to have their gemmed to do stuff per the request of the Templar, which doesn't go against the House... what are the repercussions? What can a Templar do?

Or when a Templar tells a gemmed not to join a House, or order them to refuse to do a certain task for the House. What can the House do?

I've seen these examples a few years ago IG and I always wondered what exactly can be done in such situations.
IIRC that's when things get complicated for either. End of the day, these're interwoven systems that can keep the other in check with consequences. Like for number two... they can just cut off funds to the templar in question altogether. Or pay to have the templar killed. Make a hassle for the templar. In terms of large-scale consequences, if someone really felt like it they could probably sic an Agent or NPC Noble on a templar and give them an ultimatum of sorts, or to their boss, bringing the Red Robes into the thick of things.

Likewise the templar kinda has much of the same tools... barring their ability to use crimcode and declare people criminals or kill them at a whim... or the templar magicks... mundane means of politics and pressure?

edit: Hestia beat me to it..............
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Brokkr on May 13, 2021, 05:58:58 PM
Help file time!
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Crime%20and%20Justice
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Criminal
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Arm%20of%20the%20Dragon
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Templars


Thanks Hestia.

Question: when a House which hires gemmed refuses to have their gemmed to do stuff per the request of the Templar, which doesn't go against the House... what are the repercussions? What can a Templar do?

Or when a Templar tells a gemmed not to join a House, or order them to refuse to do a certain task for the House. What can the House do?

I've seen these examples a few years ago IG and I always wondered what exactly can be done in such situations.

Been a few responses.  I will just add that sometimes when things are unclear, they are meant to be unclear.  I understand that folks may want to have an answer, so that their character is "safe" if they follow the answer. However, there may be no intention to create a path to safety.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Iiyola on May 13, 2021, 07:43:31 PM
I understand that folks may want to have an answer, so that their character is "safe" if they follow the answer. However, there may be no intention to create a path to safety.
Hi Brokkr,

I understand there is no black or white answer, but I've seen it a few times from just one side, so I was curious to the "opportunities" for either party or if there was a House trumps LT or LT trumps House rule.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the way you're stating it, is as if the one posing the question (myself) wants to secure their PC position through metagaming. That is not the case in my case.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: williamson on May 13, 2021, 08:05:45 PM
I understand that folks may want to have an answer, so that their character is "safe" if they follow the answer. However, there may be no intention to create a path to safety.
Hi Brokkr,

I understand there is no black or white answer, but I've seen it a few times from just one side, so I was curious to the "opportunities" for either party or if there was a House trumps LT or LT trumps House rule.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the way you're stating it, is as if the one posing the question (myself) wants to secure their PC position through metagaming. That is not the case in my case.

It is my opinion that the staff and help files are trying to tell you that the "law" is whatever the templar around you says it is. This can change day to day or templar to templar. You are never guaranteed fairness or justice. It's like dealing with a mafia boss. The templar tells a joke and you might be ridiculed for not laughing at it. Perhaps if you laugh, you are ridiculed for laughing at them. Often your only protection is your personal connections, political allies, or stature in the city. However, I feel confident the staff curtails templars who abuse this power.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: BOXCARS on May 17, 2021, 02:42:00 AM
I feel what's lacking in commoner life are rules written in stone, something resolute and clear to read on the lips of every arbiter of justice, something that if broken would no doubt result in throwing the book at them, and I mean really let them have it, that commoner won't even remember his alphabet by the time those illiterate soldiers are finished thrashing them!


Edit: Just learned the history of a formal code of laws in every culture and and every time period and place in the world with very few exceptions closely followed the development of written language and that most places didn't have specific standards of law that remained until advances in methods of sharing and storing information improved beyond novice pottery (choose Krath touched noob).

Could the templars do that with each other? I suppose so but there's at  least two sets of laws in Allanak, one for the masses and the other for the favored classes (keeping it simple). Formally defining these law standards for the benefit of the masses seems pointless unto being dangerous (the perspective being used is illiteracy = good) since the vagueness of law is intentional and highly arbitrary beyond "Drugs are bad. Magick is bad. Crimes are bad. Pay your taxes" (and even then).
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Hestia on May 17, 2021, 10:05:56 AM
The laws that are "written" (and memorized as recited by the templars to the AOD, and then to the commoners who can't read), are on a post in every tavern in the city.

All other laws are subjective, and may or may not exist, from one moment to the other, from one templar to another ranking soldier. THOSE laws fall under the overall law: don't disobey the soldiers or the templars.

If the templar tells you to jump, you don't ask how high. You just start jumping. You'll know it's high enough if you live to tell about it.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Inks on May 18, 2021, 06:36:23 AM
I don't see a problem with the laws. Have played spice addicts   (and worse) who templars/soldiers turned a blind eye to because they are more useful than it is worth killing/whipping them etc. It is all completely arbitrary by design. Haven't seen too many kill4lulz templars in the last few years (I can think of one who was playing to win the game). For me, sometimes serving/ appeasing/ avoiding templars becomes like a second job and I take a long break between Nakki Pcs. But the laws have never been a problem. They are arbitrary by design and I love that. Have even at one time played an elf (Suddenly) who a templar covered up the accidental murder of a soldier when they got poisoned attacking my PC. It really depends on the templar and how deep you are with them (Assassinations and theft for said templar, in this case, and a rival templar had control of the guild).


That being said, I wouldn't be upset about the templar turning around and murderising me either, because a templar does as they please. Much like medieval nobility. I don't understand the reason for needed FIRM laws. There are no lawyers. Templar have final say in all legal matters. Is easy to play somewhere else if you think you are the protagonist. Even templars aren't the protagonist.

Unrelated, the rival templar ended up flipping out and attacking the templar in public in the arena stands or something after his lover was assassinated, ended up with them both dead. Pretty dramatic stuff.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Magnate on May 18, 2021, 08:50:27 AM
I've noticed that people make a lot of assumptions. Many of the things that people are complaining about is covered in clan documentation. Just because you don't understand it, or are not aware of it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

You aren't entitled to know everything. That was always one of the coolest things about Arm - mystery. It has become a trend over the last several years to believe that you should know everything and that you DO know everything. It is amazing how some of the most vocal people on the boards are often the most incorrect.

Someone also commented about bringing out an Agent to deal with a troublesome templar. I might urge you to read up a little more on the social hierarchy in Allanak.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: betweenford on May 18, 2021, 11:43:22 AM
Someone also commented about bringing out an Agent to deal with a troublesome templar. I might urge you to read up a little more on the social hierarchy in Allanak.
I am familiar enough. Senior Agent Soandso declares you are now BANNED from shopping with House Salarr; if you find issue with this, take it up with Great Lady Muchtodo Sath.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: triste on May 18, 2021, 12:47:07 PM
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/EWGVEOwZIk8yA/giphy.gif)

Stop fighting eachother and VOTE http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-sanvean.html

Edit: huzzah, the nastiness was scrubbed, but still vote!
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: WarriorPoet on May 18, 2021, 01:15:09 PM
Well. This took an abrupt turn.

Go vote. I did.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Halcyon on May 18, 2021, 01:23:06 PM
Help file time!
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Crime%20and%20Justice
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Criminal
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Arm%20of%20the%20Dragon
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Templars



I do understand this.  However, from an rp perspective, I think a lack of safety dealing with templars means its better to avoid them and be unknown to them.  Do you agree this is true, and bad for rp in allanak?
Thanks Hestia.

Question: when a House which hires gemmed refuses to have their gemmed to do stuff per the request of the Templar, which doesn't go against the House... what are the repercussions? What can a Templar do?

Or when a Templar tells a gemmed not to join a House, or order them to refuse to do a certain task for the House. What can the House do?

I've seen these examples a few years ago IG and I always wondered what exactly can be done in such situations.

Been a few responses.  I will just add that sometimes when things are unclear, they are meant to be unclear.  I understand that folks may want to have an answer, so that their character is "safe" if they follow the answer. However, there may be no intention to create a path to safety.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Riev on May 18, 2021, 03:54:27 PM
I've noticed that people make a lot of assumptions. Many of the things that people are complaining about is covered in clan documentation. Just because you don't understand it, or are not aware of it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

You aren't entitled to know everything. That was always one of the coolest things about Arm - mystery. It has become a trend over the last several years to believe that you should know everything and that you DO know everything. It is amazing how some of the most vocal people on the boards are often the most incorrect.

Someone also commented about bringing out an Agent to deal with a troublesome templar. I might urge you to read up a little more on the social hierarchy in Allanak.

Don't assume "You don't understand it" or that people feel "entitled to know everything".

Stop taking everything people talk about personally. It may not be you they're complaining about, and if it is, let staff deal with it. Stop attacking the playerbase.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Delirium on May 18, 2021, 06:14:40 PM
Salt, Riev, salt. Let's not go baiting people or or hinting at who they may/may not play, please, that's rude.

I think this is more or less turning into the "Allanak Problem" thread. The problem is that right now, codedly, you're punished for showing up in public more than you're rewarded for it. There is no real counterbalance to coded Templar power. There's societal pressures and the virtual gameworld, but those require buy-in from players and support from staff. Either there needs to be a PLAYER antagonist of equal power to the southern templarate that is LEGAL for people to be involved with (AKA Tuluk of old) who is well supported and given all the tools they need to compete, or...

I dunno honestly if there's any other solution.

The other problem is of perception. A lot of times if you play by the rules and do what Ye Olde Templar wants you to do, you'll be just fine, maybe even rewarded and vaulted to a position of power and brought in on some cool plots. It just requires the right PC, the right mindset, and a willingness to take risks and possibly lose your character. Take those risks, go on that crazy adventure. You die telling a great story or you survive with a great story.

I feel like there's been a gradual shift in the playerbase to cling to their characters rather than play the story.

Heck, sometimes that means NOT taking the risk, but as long as you're being true to your PC, stop worrying so much about winning.

Another problem is the lack of ability to compete against abusive play by criminal classes. I feel like hearts were in the right place when designing the classes, but either they need some tweaking to depower sneak/hide/theft or, more ideally, hiding needs to be less binary, and/or give people with scan a way to reveal the hidden person (with a pre-echo so said hidden person can GTFO of dodge). In counterbalance, getting a 'look' off at a hidden person should show less information, maybe just the EQ list rather than their main description, so they're not immediately broadcast to the entire game.

My 2¢.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: LindseyBalboa on May 18, 2021, 07:41:44 PM
There's a really easy counter balance to powerful templars: having several active templar.

If one has a lot of power, the rest need to look elsewhere for it. Go make friends with them.

They're in competition. It's really well known.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: triste on May 18, 2021, 08:06:09 PM
There's a really easy counter balance to powerful templars: having several active templar.

If one has a lot of power, the rest need to look elsewhere for it. Go make friends with them.

They're in competition. It's really well known.

Full agree.

Every time I've met a Templar who would do lovely things like PK my PCs three times in a row [and admittedly I deserved it every time because I am a sketchy b!tch who roleplays sketchy b!tches], I would just seek out a Templar who was more down with the "Corruption" part of the game's tagline, and problem solved!

If you think some Templars are ass, be the change in game. I know they can seem untouchable but you can do shit like kill their aides to get to them, just LMK if y'all need a playbook.

Templars are powerful and can do whatever they want per the setting, but I agree it is this element of competition that makes it fun rather than hopeless. I hope staff also keep this in mind.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 19, 2021, 10:32:07 AM
I'll also say that sometimes things happen for IC reasons, and if you go into a discussion about issues with an open OOC mind, it'll make sense. Your milage may vary, of course, but I've been playing a really long time, and very rarely have I felt that my adversaries didn't have an IC reason for things, or, that they couldn't be reasoned with.

Take a shot at talking stuff out sometimes, because that's just as much roleplay as dodging and ducking laws is.

Nothing wrong with scraping some knees to get some shit done.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Is Friday on May 19, 2021, 12:57:32 PM
Nothing wrong with scraping some knees to get some shit done.
I'm not sure which form of consent this is asking for... but yes to both.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 19, 2021, 04:27:50 PM
Haha. Well, I mean, sure, it could be knees down, mouth open, but I was referring to knees down, begging. But, I mean ... whatever it takes.

Point is, some characters are going to need to grovel and bend knee to get what they want done. And that's okay.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Maso on May 20, 2021, 05:33:05 AM
The problem is that right now, codedly, you're punished for showing up in public more than you're rewarded for it.

If I go out in public and get the attention of a Templar... who busts my balls over.. whatever shit. I'm wearing orange and they don't like orange. To me, the player, that's totally a reward for going out in public. That's some hilarious interaction that is going to have a lasting effect on my character and help evolve their story forward.

I feel like there's been a gradual shift in the playerbase to cling to their characters rather than play the story.

The problem right now ^
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Barsook on May 20, 2021, 05:37:08 AM
I feel like there's been a gradual shift in the playerbase to cling to their characters rather than play the story.

The problem right now ^


For sure. I wonder if it's from the slow start of this current world plot that started in 2016(?).
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Aruven on May 20, 2021, 09:25:41 AM

I feel like there's been a gradual shift in the playerbase to cling to their characters rather than play the story.

The problem right now ^

Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Riev on May 20, 2021, 12:21:31 PM
Suggestion:
That may be because the support of staff has been known to come as you have "established" yourself in the game and proven you can "survive", rather than "You have a great idea? Its okay you're 2d played, lets see how it works out".

Why play the story, when your personal character's story requires time invested first?
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Veselka on May 20, 2021, 10:51:46 PM
Riev, I think that used to be more true than it is now.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Riev on May 21, 2021, 08:31:33 AM
Riev, I think that used to be more true than it is now.

I sincerely hope that is true, but its been mentioned by the Producers of the game in several posts here and in Discord that 'knowing how to stay alive' is important, and that volunteer staff only have so much time and sometimes they may not want to invest that time into a short-term character.

People play risk averse, because playing risky means your story ends sooner. If my goal is to own the music shop on the back end of Red's Retreat, how can I do that if I play risky and put my character into situations that could kill them? No. Better to play 2 hours a week, and wait.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: LindseyBalboa on May 22, 2021, 11:54:25 AM
Hoping/assuming that's hyperbole because suggesting people only play 2 hours a week but would play more later on (once they're established?) sounds incredibly paranoid. If people are playing 2 hours a week that's probably all they can afford to play, or want to. If someone plays 30 hours a week, they're going to play 30 hours a week.

I've seen staff intervene and help new characters; I have seen game changing and permanent effects happen with new characters (less than 10 days played, certainly) involved. I think it's really just up to the player to start the plot then keep it going - which does require living if it's a long term goal, yeah, but it's not like staff won't help a player kick it off.

Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: BOXCARS on May 23, 2021, 12:22:53 PM
I mean Riev has a point. The more often you play the more things happen, and the more things happen the more likely you are to die.

Every character I have seen with a big plan to build who had large playtimes failed terribly, and the one person who I ever saw succeed put in about two hours a week more or less.

Part of it is patience and self control, part of it is familiarity with the system and its contents, and honestly just pace yourself.

Players who burn the candle at both ends and put in big hours tend to be rewarded with frequent failure rather than more success. Not out of an agenda but just out of purely practical concerns. Do more things, more things happen, often in this game they are bad things. Until we have roaming npcs who gift you with rare items when you cross them, they're more likely just going to stab/bite you randomly.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: SpyGuy on May 24, 2021, 10:02:34 AM
I'll just put in a note of polite disagreement here, I've seen a fair number of non-sponsored roles who had goals, played way more than 2 hours a week and eventually got some of those goals accomplished.  This includes things like getting far into the process of becoming a MMH, plotlines that the player worked with staff on based on the characters background and only finished after over a RL year or accomplishing big personal goals for that PC.

That being said this is Arm and PCs die all the time.  Especially in combat roles or roles that are antagonistic to the powers that be.  In my anecdotal experience combat PCs tend to want to push themselves more and more.  I certainly know I have that urge...'Can I solo a raptor yet?' pretty quickly becomes 'I wonder if I can solo that gith/rantarri/thing not listed in the helpfiles?'.  That eventually leads to death in most cases.  Also when I have the time to play a lot that usually means I'll have times I get bored and go do things with some amount of risk.

I don't feel it's unreasonable for staff to want to see a PC survive for a decent period of time (maybe 2 IC years, I'm making this number up) before devoting a lot of staff time to helping to further their IC goals.  By that time the PC is likely connected with a wide range of players, has started doing some legwork on their goal IC without staff support, has built up a dialogue with the staffer over them on how to start going about getting the goal accomplished and has skilled up enough that they're more easily able to actually survive/make coin to hire PCs to help/hide really well and avoid death that way.

But there's also luck of the draw in this.  I imagine some people shoot out an idea and it really thrills a staffer or meshes well with a current plotline and things happen faster.  Or sometimes staff that would be in charge of handling that PCs requests gets busy IRL or even retires and so those personal plotlines get delayed even further.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Lotion on May 25, 2021, 06:34:18 PM
If you play for 30 hours a week you will probably die 15x faster than someone who plays 2 hours a week.
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Vox on May 25, 2021, 07:20:43 PM
Wait.. there’s laws?
Title: Re: Allanaki Laws
Post by: Barsook on May 25, 2021, 07:29:09 PM
Aren't we beating the dead horse here? Let's just play the game and have fun with it. Take the various hooks that players and staff give and help you and other tell stories.

Not trying to be snarky here.