Author Topic: Allanaki Laws  (Read 3081 times)

Narf

  • Posts: 1021
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2021, 04:43:23 PM »
Some actionable ideas:

1) App a templar and try a different approach, one that both respects the documents but seems like it might be more fun than past approaches.

2) App a templar that's still a bastard, but just not a very competent one (this has been done in the past. How did it work out for people?)

3) Create an in game organization who's specific purpose is to provide protection (at a hefty cost) to commoners. The Guild protects people from themselves, the Byn protects people from the wilderness. This clan protects people from the Militia/templars (probably through a hefty set of bribes).

Just spitballing some ideas.

Narf

  • Posts: 1021
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2021, 04:59:53 PM »

I'm on Team Kill Both Cities and Top-Down Aspects of the GMH, No Glass Ceilings, Let's Have a Real Player-Based Collaborative Roleplaying Game. 

This is a very long team name, but I'm partial to it.  Make the enemies really each other, as run and played by each other, and the outside groups people can't play (mantis invasion, gith invasion, kryl invasion, gaj invasion, idk).  No laws no masters.

I feel like it would cater to the strengths of MUDs over graphical games, like being able to literally change the world and having a dynamic, player-interactive focus.  And it would step away from things that other types of games can do better, like having a top-down story and a mostly static setting.  But inertia is hard to overcome, and I'm sure some people really like or are invested in the status quo, so I don't expect this to happen.

I think at this point you'd be better off designing a new game from scratch. I'd definitely play it though.

Barsook

  • Posts: 8620
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2021, 05:26:21 PM »

I'm on Team Kill Both Cities and Top-Down Aspects of the GMH, No Glass Ceilings, Let's Have a Real Player-Based Collaborative Roleplaying Game. 

This is a very long team name, but I'm partial to it.  Make the enemies really each other, as run and played by each other, and the outside groups people can't play (mantis invasion, gith invasion, kryl invasion, gaj invasion, idk).  No laws no masters.

I feel like it would cater to the strengths of MUDs over graphical games, like being able to literally change the world and having a dynamic, player-interactive focus.  And it would step away from things that other types of games can do better, like having a top-down story and a mostly static setting.  But inertia is hard to overcome, and I'm sure some people really like or are invested in the status quo, so I don't expect this to happen.

I think at this point you'd be better off designing a new game from scratch. I'd definitely play it though.

If it's a MUD, maybe I do have an idea for one that's a RPI.

Not kidding.

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9261
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2021, 08:07:01 PM »
Tuluk was closed without a counter-balance in place for southern Templars and we're still trying to figure that out. Whatever is going on with the game right now isn't ideal in regards to their dynamic with the rest of the playerbase. It's just not as fun imo.

I think they expected that everyone would just go and play in Allanak and that the noble houses would be full of leaders offering that counter-balance.

From what I've heard/read, it seems like a majority of players went to Luir's/Red Storm instead, or like in my case, went back to WoW.

I'll be honest, I've held back on creating a new character hoping that the RPT would be the re-opening of Tuluk, or at the very least tell me where to go play to be in the center of a cool new plot, but again, from what I've read, it doesn't seem to be the case at all so at this point I really have no urge to return to Armageddon even tho I have the full summer ahead of me (yay being a teacher!)

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Veselka

  • Posts: 1235
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2021, 10:30:57 PM »
Hey, Halaster made it back. Maybe Nyr (and Team Evershine) will someday, too.

Tuluk was definitely in 'The Best Place It Had Been In' before closing. Some things were still super funky (Shadow Artists and Training them for instance), BUT, recent code changes would actually fix that. Bards were weird. I liked so many aspects of Tuluk. Was it imperfect, ugly, bloated, and pretty stupid at times? Of course. But I miss the fuck out of it and if it opened I'd be playing there pretty much exclusively for about 10 RL years.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

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Iiyola

  • Posts: 4104
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2021, 11:23:18 PM »
I don't think the issue is players of Templars. They're following documentation. The structure of that documentation is the problem because there is no counter-balance. Either change the docs or provide a counter-balance, I think.

Tuluk was closed without a counter-balance in place for southern Templars and we're still trying to figure that out. Whatever is going on with the game right now isn't ideal in regards to their dynamic with the rest of the playerbase. It's just not as fun imo.
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Brokkr

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Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2021, 11:30:49 AM »
or at the very least tell me where to go play to be in the center of a cool new plot

It's not like you can't find something like that on this very GDB.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56796.0.html

Quote
Except expect that it be based north of Luirs.
Quote
Except that Northern knowledge would be a plus.
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Please let us know how familiar with the North you are.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56821.0.html

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Malken

  • Posts: 9227
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2021, 12:45:24 PM »
or at the very least tell me where to go play to be in the center of a cool new plot

It's not like you can't find something like that on this very GDB.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56796.0.html

Quote
Except expect that it be based north of Luirs.
Quote
Except that Northern knowledge would be a plus.
Quote
Please let us know how familiar with the North you are.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56821.0.html

Quote
The very sky to the northwestern region of the Known

Which is exactly why I thought you guys were re-opening Tuluk to play and I was waiting for the RPT to see if that was the case  ;D

But seeing that it's not... Can you start a character in Morin's?

Starting a brand new character when you haven't played in 3+ years and you have no idea what's going on anywhere is frightening... I can only imagine what it's like being a new player!

I still think that IG boards with recruiting posts should be visible on the GDB to give players an idea on where to play next and what kind of character is viable there.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
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With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

mansa

  • Posts: 10136
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2021, 12:50:18 PM »
... Can you start a character in Morin's?
Yes, you can start in Morin's Village (even as a city elf).

Starting a brand new character when you haven't played in 3+ years and you have no idea what's going on anywhere is frightening... I can only imagine what it's like being a new player!

I loved it, because it became a whole new experience for me to enjoy for the first time, again.


I still think that IG boards with recruiting posts should be visible on the GDB to give players an idea on where to play next and what kind of character is viable there.
That's probably a good, separate, conversation for the GDB!
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LindseyBalboa

  • Posts: 299
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2021, 12:59:06 PM »
Because for some reason Tuluk came up in this thread (we got 'Allanak problems' and 'Tuluk' now, all someone needs to do is bring up Red Fangs for the Arm Trifecta), I just wanna say:

I'm so glad Tuluk is closed. The last thing this game needs is some city full of convoluted theme that nobody can agree on. "I did Tuluk right but nobody else did" is something I've heard expressed in innumerable ways. "These last two years Tuluk was great but every other year it was pretty shitty but I remember it fondly" is a new sentiment (for me to see, at least), but not a compelling one. Beyond that, Tuluk has changed completely..

However, yeah, there needs to be a real enemy for Allanak, outside of the city. And Luir's needs to be in the middle as it was designed to be, and not a place for GMH to go play noble without worry about templars and actual nobles.

But Allanak was just almost Steinaled. So there's already another power somewhere north that's ready to challenge Allanak, supported by players and staff. As a player that never hung out in Tuluk, I find that 1000x more interesting, and I'm way more excited to learn theme and in-game events at the same time as the rest of the player base than I would be in exploring some dusty ass city that people played in twenty years ago.

(Edited to add: cities aren't even what Allanak is to me personally. Open up more tribes)
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 01:26:43 PM by LindseyBalboa »
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Blackjack

  • Posts: 61
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2021, 07:29:51 AM »
In case anyone overlooked it (I certainly did, despite being a seasoned player), here are the Official Laws of Allanak, passed by the Senate over the years:

High Treason-
-Knowingly harboring or aiding a mindbender.
-Knowingly harboring or aiding a sorcerer
-Conspiring against the Highlord

Treason-
-Knowingly harboring or aiding a nilazi
-Knowledge of spoken or written Tatlum
-Murdering a noble peer or Templar
-Harboring or aiding an ungemmed elementalist

Common Crimes-
---Knowledge of writing
---Ungemmed elementalism (refusing a gem)
---Striking one of noble blood
-Creation or summoning of magickal constructs or creatures within the city
-Having visible spell effects within the city   <------------------------ This needs to be added in the appropriate spot
-Attempting to free a slave or aid in the escape of a slave
-Murder
-Trespassing in the Templar's and Noble's quarter
-Assault
-Assault


valeria

  • Posts: 6204
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Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2021, 07:36:47 AM »
As far as I know, it's any spell effects, not just visible ones.  But that's a really good point.
Templars are basically if judge Dredd was a Cardassian


triste

  • Posts: 979
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2021, 10:25:38 AM »
But Allanak was just almost Steinaled. So there's already another power somewhere north that's ready to challenge Allanak, supported by players and staff.

'Twould be awesome if this stuck about in a lasting way. In a way new players can even create a character into, as Malken implied. As I mentioned earlier, the best time I had playing in years was when there was a strong oppositional force to Allanak around two or three years ago. I noticed EVERYONE was more active and engaged as a result: Templars, Northern houses / tribes, etc. But right as players were building up something compelling (I remember Kukuali practically had forts out in the North, her own masks and insignia), it all came down, with the majority of players involved killed, the major plot terminated, the pseudo-clan Kukuali and others had formed, just gone.

Don't get me wrong, the RPT terminating this oppositional force was awesome, and I think that was also a recent RPT where we had 70-90 players on. But seeing something that the game desperately needed get wiped out, again, and seeing other "oppositional" clans like the Soh get closed around the same time was disheartening as well.

Again, I wonder why we constantly have players imploring staff for something, being told they can "be the change," and seeing that the result of trying to "be the change" is often failure. Your player made clan gets closed, with little explanation, if you were lucky to form one at all. This thread was possibly started because often when someone tries to be the change, a new law or McGuffin comes around to mess up this player's plan. For instance, I feel if a player tried to set up a rival mercenary group to the Byn, it wouldn't get much support or even be shut down just to more maintainably funnel players to the Byn. This is probably exactly why the Soh was shut down around the time the Crimson Wind reopened, because we only have so much capacity. Which I understand. But isn't it in effect snubbing one group of players for another? Sorry Amon, you're a badass for making a player-made clan, but I am really really fond of Lusts for Blood and the players who made the Soh.

I will say this, I am going to desperately try to be the change on my next character, and I appreciate anyone who plays in the Crimson Wind and other oppositional clans / areas. But on the topic of law and documentation, there isn't really a documented or easy way to get involved with these oppositional groups, so unfortunately new players are often chewed up in the master and servant, meat grinder like environment of Allanak.
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Iiyola

  • Posts: 4104
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2021, 10:47:47 AM »
Help file time!
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Crime%20and%20Justice
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Criminal
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Arm%20of%20the%20Dragon
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Templars


Thanks Hestia.

Question: when a House which hires gemmed refuses to have their gemmed to do stuff per the request of the Templar, which doesn't go against the House... what are the repercussions? What can a Templar do?

Or when a Templar tells a gemmed not to join a House, or order them to refuse to do a certain task for the House. What can the House do?

I've seen these examples a few years ago IG and I always wondered what exactly can be done in such situations.
Sometimes, severity is the price we pay for greatness

Hestia

  • Storyteller
  • Posts: 56
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2021, 03:41:43 PM »
Help file time!
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Crime%20and%20Justice
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Criminal
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Arm%20of%20the%20Dragon
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Templars


Thanks Hestia.

Question: when a House which hires gemmed refuses to have their gemmed to do stuff per the request of the Templar, which doesn't go against the House... what are the repercussions? What can a Templar do?

Or when a Templar tells a gemmed not to join a House, or order them to refuse to do a certain task for the House. What can the House do?

I've seen these examples a few years ago IG and I always wondered what exactly can be done in such situations.

It really depends on the templar, the house, the noble, the gemmed, the current political flavor, etc.  For example:

Amos the gemmed Drovian wants to serve LT Jimbob.  Lord Smith wants to hire Amos. Amos doesn't want to be disrespectful so he puts it off, until he needs to do something - so he gets in touch with LT Jimbob and says "hey - I wanna work for you but Lord Smith is really pushing for me to work for them. Do you need me?"

Several things could happen next:

Amos tries to double-deal.
Lord Smith changes his mind, or learns that Lt. Jimbob wants to hire Amos, and backs off.
LT Jimbob can't STAND Lord Smith. So LT Jimbob rejects Amos, who is now free to work for whoever is willing to hire him.
Lt. Jimbob can't STAND Amos. So LT Jimbob goes to Lord Smith and says "Hey you should definitely hire Amos, he's ersum."
Lt. Jimbob doesn't care about either of them, so Jimbob tells them both to fuck off.
Lt. Jimbob has no personal opinion of Smith but doesn't trust him. So he tells Amos, "Okay - you work for me. Your task is to get employed by Lord Smith and be my secret spy."

and so on and so forth.

Meanwhile, if you are already working for a house and you're gemmed, the procedure for "dealing with templars" is 100% dependent on your PC boss. If they say "do whatever this templar says, but run away from that templar" then that's their rule. If they say "politely grovel and give him 200 sids to apologize for making him get in touch with me first and then bow and immediately run away" then that's their rule.  If the templar is arresting you, then the templar is arresting you.

betweenford

  • Posts: 134
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2021, 03:47:51 PM »
Help file time!
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Crime%20and%20Justice
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Criminal
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Arm%20of%20the%20Dragon
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Templars


Thanks Hestia.

Question: when a House which hires gemmed refuses to have their gemmed to do stuff per the request of the Templar, which doesn't go against the House... what are the repercussions? What can a Templar do?

Or when a Templar tells a gemmed not to join a House, or order them to refuse to do a certain task for the House. What can the House do?

I've seen these examples a few years ago IG and I always wondered what exactly can be done in such situations.
IIRC that's when things get complicated for either. End of the day, these're interwoven systems that can keep the other in check with consequences. Like for number two... they can just cut off funds to the templar in question altogether. Or pay to have the templar killed. Make a hassle for the templar. In terms of large-scale consequences, if someone really felt like it they could probably sic an Agent or NPC Noble on a templar and give them an ultimatum of sorts, or to their boss, bringing the Red Robes into the thick of things.

Likewise the templar kinda has much of the same tools... barring their ability to use crimcode and declare people criminals or kill them at a whim... or the templar magicks... mundane means of politics and pressure?

edit: Hestia beat me to it..............

Brokkr

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  • Posts: 1085
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2021, 05:58:58 PM »
Help file time!
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Crime%20and%20Justice
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Criminal
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Arm%20of%20the%20Dragon
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Templars


Thanks Hestia.

Question: when a House which hires gemmed refuses to have their gemmed to do stuff per the request of the Templar, which doesn't go against the House... what are the repercussions? What can a Templar do?

Or when a Templar tells a gemmed not to join a House, or order them to refuse to do a certain task for the House. What can the House do?

I've seen these examples a few years ago IG and I always wondered what exactly can be done in such situations.

Been a few responses.  I will just add that sometimes when things are unclear, they are meant to be unclear.  I understand that folks may want to have an answer, so that their character is "safe" if they follow the answer. However, there may be no intention to create a path to safety.

Iiyola

  • Posts: 4104
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2021, 07:43:31 PM »
I understand that folks may want to have an answer, so that their character is "safe" if they follow the answer. However, there may be no intention to create a path to safety.
Hi Brokkr,

I understand there is no black or white answer, but I've seen it a few times from just one side, so I was curious to the "opportunities" for either party or if there was a House trumps LT or LT trumps House rule.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the way you're stating it, is as if the one posing the question (myself) wants to secure their PC position through metagaming. That is not the case in my case.
Sometimes, severity is the price we pay for greatness

williamson

  • Posts: 309
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2021, 08:05:45 PM »
I understand that folks may want to have an answer, so that their character is "safe" if they follow the answer. However, there may be no intention to create a path to safety.
Hi Brokkr,

I understand there is no black or white answer, but I've seen it a few times from just one side, so I was curious to the "opportunities" for either party or if there was a House trumps LT or LT trumps House rule.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the way you're stating it, is as if the one posing the question (myself) wants to secure their PC position through metagaming. That is not the case in my case.

It is my opinion that the staff and help files are trying to tell you that the "law" is whatever the templar around you says it is. This can change day to day or templar to templar. You are never guaranteed fairness or justice. It's like dealing with a mafia boss. The templar tells a joke and you might be ridiculed for not laughing at it. Perhaps if you laugh, you are ridiculed for laughing at them. Often your only protection is your personal connections, political allies, or stature in the city. However, I feel confident the staff curtails templars who abuse this power.
"Let sleeping characters sleep naked." -Azroen

BOXCARS

  • Posts: 100
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #70 on: May 17, 2021, 02:42:00 AM »
I feel what's lacking in commoner life are rules written in stone, something resolute and clear to read on the lips of every arbiter of justice, something that if broken would no doubt result in throwing the book at them, and I mean really let them have it, that commoner won't even remember his alphabet by the time those illiterate soldiers are finished thrashing them!


Edit: Just learned the history of a formal code of laws in every culture and and every time period and place in the world with very few exceptions closely followed the development of written language and that most places didn't have specific standards of law that remained until advances in methods of sharing and storing information improved beyond novice pottery (choose Krath touched noob).

Could the templars do that with each other? I suppose so but there's at  least two sets of laws in Allanak, one for the masses and the other for the favored classes (keeping it simple). Formally defining these law standards for the benefit of the masses seems pointless unto being dangerous (the perspective being used is illiteracy = good) since the vagueness of law is intentional and highly arbitrary beyond "Drugs are bad. Magick is bad. Crimes are bad. Pay your taxes" (and even then).
« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 02:53:19 AM by BOXCARS »

Hestia

  • Storyteller
  • Posts: 56
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #71 on: May 17, 2021, 10:05:56 AM »
The laws that are "written" (and memorized as recited by the templars to the AOD, and then to the commoners who can't read), are on a post in every tavern in the city.

All other laws are subjective, and may or may not exist, from one moment to the other, from one templar to another ranking soldier. THOSE laws fall under the overall law: don't disobey the soldiers or the templars.

If the templar tells you to jump, you don't ask how high. You just start jumping. You'll know it's high enough if you live to tell about it.

Inks

  • Posts: 1425
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #72 on: May 18, 2021, 06:36:23 AM »
I don't see a problem with the laws. Have played spice addicts   (and worse) who templars/soldiers turned a blind eye to because they are more useful than it is worth killing/whipping them etc. It is all completely arbitrary by design. Haven't seen too many kill4lulz templars in the last few years (I can think of one who was playing to win the game). For me, sometimes serving/ appeasing/ avoiding templars becomes like a second job and I take a long break between Nakki Pcs. But the laws have never been a problem. They are arbitrary by design and I love that. Have even at one time played an elf (Suddenly) who a templar covered up the accidental murder of a soldier when they got poisoned attacking my PC. It really depends on the templar and how deep you are with them (Assassinations and theft for said templar, in this case, and a rival templar had control of the guild).


That being said, I wouldn't be upset about the templar turning around and murderising me either, because a templar does as they please. Much like medieval nobility. I don't understand the reason for needed FIRM laws. There are no lawyers. Templar have final say in all legal matters. Is easy to play somewhere else if you think you are the protagonist. Even templars aren't the protagonist.

Unrelated, the rival templar ended up flipping out and attacking the templar in public in the arena stands or something after his lover was assassinated, ended up with them both dead. Pretty dramatic stuff.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 07:56:13 AM by Inks »
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Magnate

  • Posts: 328
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #73 on: May 18, 2021, 08:50:27 AM »
I've noticed that people make a lot of assumptions. Many of the things that people are complaining about is covered in clan documentation. Just because you don't understand it, or are not aware of it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

You aren't entitled to know everything. That was always one of the coolest things about Arm - mystery. It has become a trend over the last several years to believe that you should know everything and that you DO know everything. It is amazing how some of the most vocal people on the boards are often the most incorrect.

Someone also commented about bringing out an Agent to deal with a troublesome templar. I might urge you to read up a little more on the social hierarchy in Allanak.

betweenford

  • Posts: 134
Re: Allanaki Laws
« Reply #74 on: May 18, 2021, 11:43:22 AM »
Someone also commented about bringing out an Agent to deal with a troublesome templar. I might urge you to read up a little more on the social hierarchy in Allanak.
I am familiar enough. Senior Agent Soandso declares you are now BANNED from shopping with House Salarr; if you find issue with this, take it up with Great Lady Muchtodo Sath.