Coercion, manipulation, and sex.

[mansa]

What a great title.

There has been some unfocused discussions about coercion and rape in the official discord channel lately.

Consent - http://armageddon.org/help/view/Consent

...There are few restrictions on roleplay in Armageddon. If you choose to roleplay adult situations, that is fine. However, before instigating such an act with another player, you need to OOC to make sure that the role play is consented to, in each scene it happens. You must do this as you can't be sure that you are alone in every situation, and as such consent must be addressed every time. If someone is instigating roleplay that makes you uncomfortable, please OOC that they should stop. If they continue despite being told to stop, please wish up. This rule is not meant to be abused in order to allow characters to escape the consequences. Perhaps a good analogy is the movie ratings system: some people may wish to see the details acted out in a way which would deserve an R rating while another, younger player might prefer that the details be communicated in an OOC fashion and left offstage.

Rape/Sexual Torture plotlines are not to be played out in the game. See 'help rape' for further elaboration on this subject and a definition of what is considered rape in Armageddon....

Emphasis Mine.



Rape - http://armageddon.org/help/view/Rape

...In situations where a power imbalance between two characters exists and said imbalance is used as leverage for an adult situation, consent must be sought at the earliest possible juncture. Refusal by the 'weaker' party requires the instigator to adjust their intent or desire to avoid a sexual situation....

...Note that Wikipedia includes 'coercion' and 'abuse of power' as two ways that rape can be carried out. We are excluding these from our definition, as we feel they are part of the game world. Also, the rule of consent still applies as to how and if the sexual scene would be carried out....

Emphasis Mine.


In my opinion, there's a conflict here.  I would like to see the concept of 'coercion/abuse of power' to be removed or updated.

[Lotion]

I believe that coerced sexual favors constitutes rape and should be explicitly disallowed.

The no rape rule exists to protect player safety and by allowing rape in some forms it fails completely in this way.

[Ender]

I agree with mansa that the game should use the full definition of rape as part of the ban.

My main concern is that coercion as a tactic has a high possibility of OOC bleed where it is the Player who ends up feeling coerced into consenting.

To know that my character could find themselves in a situation where I would have to consent to a sexual plotline or have my character killed or denied a goal is not a situation I am comfortable with.  I think the two wordings are unclear and leave too much ambiguity.  It seems like if I figure out early on that the plotline will require sexual acts from my PC I can go OOC and request the plotline be altered to something else?  I would really feel more comfortable if such plotlines were not allowed to be pursued in the first place.

I also think these sorts of plotlines tend to skew far too frequently with males coercing females which inherently goes against the atmosphere of the game where men and women are supposed to be equals.

[Dirtt]

I agree with mansa that the game should use the full definition of rape as part of the ban.

My main concern is that coercion as a tactic has a high possibility of OOC bleed where it is the Player who ends up feeling coerced into consenting.

To know that my character could find themselves in a situation where I would have to consent to a sexual plotline or have my character killed or denied a goal is not a situation I am comfortable with.  I think the two wordings are unclear and leave too much ambiguity.  It seems like if I figure out early on that the plotline will require sexual acts from my PC I can go OOC and request the plotline be altered to something else?  I would really feel more comfortable if such plotlines were not allowed to be pursued in the first place.

I also think these sorts of plotlines tend to skew far too frequently with males coercing females which inherently goes against the atmosphere of the game where men and women are supposed to be equals.

It should not be left unnoticed that some people play female characters to purposely coerce men or play on 'easy' mode.

[AngryErdlu]

I agree with mansa that the game should use the full definition of rape as part of the ban.

My main concern is that coercion as a tactic has a high possibility of OOC bleed where it is the Player who ends up feeling coerced into consenting.

To know that my character could find themselves in a situation where I would have to consent to a sexual plotline or have my character killed or denied a goal is not a situation I am comfortable with.  I think the two wordings are unclear and leave too much ambiguity.  It seems like if I figure out early on that the plotline will require sexual acts from my PC I can go OOC and request the plotline be altered to something else?  I would really feel more comfortable if such plotlines were not allowed to be pursued in the first place.

I also think these sorts of plotlines tend to skew far too frequently with males coercing females which inherently goes against the atmosphere of the game where men and women are supposed to be equals.

It should not be left unnoticed that some people play female characters to purposely coerce men or play on 'easy' mode.

I'd counter this with the revelation that female characters sometimes get ten times the drama in their role because they are seen as marks for 'easy mode'.  Thus, the discussion at hand.

[mansa]

One of the things that Ender brought up in the Discord channel was how 'Tuluk as a Culture' implemented their social/sexual caste system, which enforced a hard "don't have sex with your minions" rule.

Tuluki Roleplay - http://armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Roleplay

Romance?
Nobles (and obviously, templars) do not have romantic or sexual relationships with commoners. It is unthinkable, and a monstrous violation of social protocols. Such relationships are considered a social fax paus. The caste system in Tuluk has been in place for years and is a fundamental part of Tuluki society and culture. Such relationships are liabilities for the House. If word were to get out, it would damage not only the noble's reputation, which is bad in itself, but it would also damage the House's reputation. As such, if such things happen, they are also dealt with behind closed doors. Claims of impropriety between a noble and a commoner might face just as much censure as the impropriety itself.

And as far as I recall, it worked and players continued to play in that roleplaying space, and it didn't ruin the storylines that were being run there.



I continue to think about this subject, and different ways to reduce the implication, as It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia puts it.  I'm not exactly sure of the next steps to be taken, but I know I am bothered by this, so I'm going to keep considering different possibilities.

[Khorm]

i would have a much easier time with this topic if i didn't think it skewed heavily toward female pcs being coerced.

IF sexes were indeed equal i don't think this would be the case and i don't think it would be as much of an issue. sexes are often not treated equally, or at least not represented equally so we're left with a system that allows female pcs to be victimized in a majority of these scenarios.

it seems out of place and the justification behind removing more violent types of rape but not these softer forms is perplexing.

i can appreciate that zalanthas is harsh and harsh things happen. your boss saying bang or die is harsh. harshness doesn't have to be represented in a way that primarily ruins the experience of the players that have to deal with this shit. it's lazy and if we have to weigh the ruined experiences of the victims vs the victimizers... should come to a fairly obvious conclusion about what to do.

[LindseyBalboa]

Thematically, whoring or trading/selling sex for favors or coin is not even blinked at. Genders are equal, and sex is not looked down upon. Sex is sex and that's all it is, to be used as one likes - for food, for kids, for favors, for fun.

Thus there is no thematic difference between extorting someone for sex, or extorting someone for coin, if there is no thematic stigma toward sex. It's just something else to barter with, and the 'strong prey on the less so' in every other aspect, as well.

I've always been very much of the opinion that you can just FTB past anything that makes you, the player, feel uncomfortable. And perhaps some games, books, and shows aren't meant for everyone. I have only played males and I have had other characters of both genders threaten me or offer money for sex, and it never bothered me as a player because I could ignore it, fight it, or FTB if I wanted to earn some coin for literally no rp or effort.

However, that's a selfish outlook on my part. People have spoken up about their discomfort, and ignoring a problem is being complicit to it. I don't think it's a widespread problem, but it doesn't have to be to be an issue. I don't want to be a part of traumatizing other players (through ambivalence) in a community that I am proud to be a part of, and I want other players to have fun playing the game that I like playing.


So... since this is a conversation. What actions can be taken, beyond just "I don't like this" and "It should be gone." What actionable plan can be put into place to protect players from the world they're playing in, and ensure that while people are MCBing all over, the people behind those characters feel safe and a part of the community?

[th3kaiser]

Not really playing, but I am one of those players who does not and has never engaged in sexual activity in the mud. Any sort of coercion for sex, while realistic, is wildly distasteful to me. All sexual acts and activity should require a consent OOC. If you want to engage in sexually coercive scene, just check to see if your partner/s are okay with that beforehand. Just like you should in real life.

[Coffeebean]

Coerced sex is NOT OKAY. It doesn't matter if you, the victim, is male, female, or non-binary - you said no and the other party or parties used things like threats, guilt-tripping, blackmail, or even drugs to force your consent their way. That is a culture that should NOT be fed.

Being badgered by a PC day in and day out for sex is /annoying/ and ruins the game for me when my PC said /no/ or showed /disinterest/.

[Delirium]

Coerced sex is NOT OKAY. It doesn't matter if you, the victim, is male, female, or non-binary - you said no and the other party or parties used things like threats, guilt-tripping, blackmail, or even drugs to force your consent their way. That is a culture that should NOT be fed.

Being badgered by a PC day in and day out for sex is /annoying/ and ruins the game for me when my PC said /no/ or showed /disinterest/.

Not to mention it seems extremely lopsided which sex this happens to, and it also seems to come with IC consequences if sidestepped or ignored. I haven't seen it in a long time, likely due to style of PCs I play, but I 100% believe it happens. I've heard of it, through IC channels, and firmly believe any PC in a position of coded power/authority should not pursue storylines which involve sexual coercion, whether actual or implied, due to the thorny nature of OOC/IC consent. I'm not talking about relationships which evolve naturally or are being pursued/lopsided, I'm talking about, for example, a templar telling a female PC that they should do x sexual acts for them and heavily implying that they'll be killed if they don't. This actually happened to a female PC.

On the slight derail:
Do some female PCs play up the inherent sexism that remains and/or take advantage of it? Sure. Doesn't mean male PCs aren't equally culpable of falling for/feeding into the culture. The game culture has improved a lot over the last decade or so, but I think we still have work to do. Take a PC's personality as their personality, whether female, male, non-binary, and accept that there are different sexualities all across the spectrum, including ace, and treat it completely IC. Leave your westernized notions at the door, including the subtle and not-so-subtle double standards.

I can't tell you how many times, on my male PCs, I've noticed that the exact same behavior which would get me bullied or censured or gossiped about as a female PC, I was looked up to or given a pass for. This isn't just involving sex, it's involving attitudes, presentation, perceived masculinity, everything. Women who stand up for themselves = bitches, men who stand up for themselves = confident, women who are "one of the boys" = cool, men who are feminine = uncool... these sorts of outdated attitudes are still prevalent and form a strong undercurrent in how the game's "politics" are played.

tl;dr - the game environment is better, but we need to keep working to leave RL learned behavior at the door.

[Robespierre]

Right now, the stronger party is supposed to OOC early on and adjust their character's intent. This is different from say prostitution or a purely consensual scene, where either party can opt to fade to black. This is the only MUD I've seen with a rule addressing a power imbalance and not forcible rape (good on Armageddon!), but I think it leaves some big holes:

1) There's enough room for plausible deniability and maybe even genuine confusion. A character's boss may not think they're coercing the subordinate and don't intend to impose any consequences, but the subordinate might believe the threat exists.

2) Because the practice isn't specifically forbidden, players might be hesitant to report someone for not sending the OOC message until the second before clothes fly off. No one wants to tell on someone, and enforcing compliance of a bright line rule is easier.

3) IMO, Armageddon harshness is at its best when it's harshness players tend not to feel in real life. No one is getting eaten by giant insects, or attacked by poisoned blowdarts, or being shaken down by magic-wielding law enforcement. People are put in sexual situations that are not 100% consensual IRL, and we should adjust so they don't have to relive that through the game.

4) Maybe theoretically, men and women in Zalanthas are equally likely to coerce sex, but from my experience and these accounts, it's way more likely to happen to female characters. Disadvantaging female characters is worse for the game and bad for the player base.

I think there are a range of options, depending on the severity of the problem:

1) We ask the players to be aware of the situation and do better, maybe on starting pages and by staff reminders. That could marginally change game culture. This lets people that really want to have coercive storylines have them, but it probably won't have the biggest impact.

2) We could require the less powerful party initiate any relationship. This would solve a lot of the problems and might be enough. One person identified on our Discord channel that they felt uncomfortable saying no when the relationship was already initiated, and that problem would remain unaddressed.

3) We could have a Tuluk-style "no sleeping with subordinates" culture, and maybe even expand that to "you can be a jerk in every possible way but sexual". This would solve the problem completely and IMO is the best solution, but I think we'll have to do some major ret-conning. I suspect there are players that have been OOCly completely courteous whose characters should not be penalized for actions that were fine when they took them.

[Malken]

Being badgered by a PC day in and day out for sex is /annoying/ and ruins the game for me when my PC said /no/ or showed /disinterest/.

I bet, and I totally understand, but that's not coerced sex is it?

I think the entire playerbase should make some sort of pact to only play male characters, for shit and giggles.

Kinda like the 0 karma thing that lasted like 3 days.

[Veselka]

I agree that these two statements are at odds with one another.

I think particularly people who are in positions of power should not be using sex as a tool of coercion.

I'm fine with any and all plots of rape or near rape or rape adjacent concepts being purged from the game. Can't we all just get along (AKA, murder each other with bone swords)?

[Riev]

My big concern with the situation, as it stands, is that it is a slippery slope from "I don't want to be forced to see a sexual scene" to "I don't want my character influenced by sex at all" to "I don't want to be exposed so other players will need to adjust their PCs goals and motivations."

That said? Don't lock people in rooms, insisting they perform sexual acts or they cannot leave alive, and try to skirt that rule. Up to and especially because this can lead to an OOC fear that there will be IC consequences if they don't 'play along'.

People joke about all the mudsex that goes on in game, but there's a lot of it. And thats fine, we code abusers need mudsex people to give us reasons to kill. But there shouldn't be a reason someone is "doing something rapey but its not rape hueheuheuhue".

Change the docs.

[Malken]

Bad Dude: I have you finally cornered, witch, and now you are about to die, muhahah!

Talia: Please.. No... I will do /anything/ to save myself!

Bad Dude: Well... I admit I always had a thing for you, seeing as I'm a witch too.. And, y'know.. We need more baby witches in this world...

Talia oocly says, "Hold on, I don't want that kind of roleplay in my Armageddon!"

Bad Dude oocly says, "Sorry about that, let me start over."

Bad Dude: Well, I'm willing to let you live, but that's going to cost you 5000 'sids!

Talia: I don't have that kind of money, is there /anything/ I can do for you....?

Bad Dude: Well, your lover is a pain to me, if you're willing to murder him, I might reconsider...

Talia: Nooo.. I love my lover! Is there anything else I can do for you...? I'm willing to do /anything/.

Bad Dude. JFC, just die already!

[Brytta Léofa]

Bad Dude: I have you finally cornered, witch, and now you are about to die, muhahah!

Talia: Please.. No... I will do /anything/ to save myself!

This is a case of both of the following:
(1) Bad Dude's reason to kill Talia was bullshit¹, and
(2) Talia's player is crit failing on creativity².

¹ Unless he was going to kill her regardless of what she did, which is very Armageddon.
² Source: talked my way out of getting my whiran murdered by Sun Runners who had her dead to rights.

[Malken]

Bad Dude: I have you finally cornered, witch, and now you are about to die, muhahah!

Talia: Please.. No... I will do /anything/ to save myself!

This is a case of both of the following:
(1) Bad Dude's reason to kill Talia was bullshit¹, and
(2) Talia's player is crit failing on creativity².

¹ Unless he was going to kill her regardless of what she did, which is very Armageddon.
² Source: talked my way out of getting my whiran murdered by Sun Runners who had her dead to rights.

I agree, but is there really anyone left on Armageddon in 2021 who still attempting to create rape or even rape'ish (I can't believe someone actually had to type a massively descriptive description of what is considered intercourse on Armageddon in the rape help file) scenes after all the discussions we've had on it?

I'm just left wondering if Bad Dude offering Talia (and or vice versa) sex in exchange for letting her live (ftb or not) is now considered going too far for Mansa (being a lame excuse or not is not really in question here, I bet 90% of what goes on Armageddon is probably considered lame for one reason or another depending on who you ask).

P.S.: I still think that you are a sweet lady no matter what your signature says!

[mansa]

...
I'm just left wondering if Bad Dude offering Talia (and or vice versa) sex in exchange for letting her live (ftb or not) is now considered going too far for Mansa...

Yes.  That's the thesis.

[Ender]

I agree, but is there really anyone left on Armageddon in 2021 who still attempting to create rape or even rape'ish (I can't believe someone actually had to type a massively descriptive description of what is considered intercourse on Armageddon in the rape help file) scenes after all the discussions we've had on it?

That document was written because it was a problem even if you did not personally experience it.  And from talking to other players who have recently experienced versions of this that are still allowed by the rules, it is still a problem, and one that should be fixed.  Just saying it's 2021 has not fixed many problems with our culture surrounding consent as much as we would like to think it has.

[Khorm]

...
I'm just left wondering if Bad Dude offering Talia (and or vice versa) sex in exchange for letting her live (ftb or not) is now considered going too far for Mansa...

Yes.  That's the thesis.

i feel like this scenario is fundamentally different than being told by a templar that sex or suffer consequences. i think sex and sexuality as a bargaining chip is great and thematic, and seems healthy for the world so long as everyone is consenting and behaving like a functional member of society.

using coded or social or whatever power to fuck you or die/suffer consequences appears more like rape to me.

the first character is going to die and has a simple binary decision to make. they already know they're going to die.. if they agree to sex.. great. the second character is just trying to play an aide or something and is going about their business but now has to deal with roleplaying potential sexual trauma or have their shit ruined because they don't want to be forced into a sex scene.

i should point out that i've only engaged in like 5 sex scenes over 19 years. this is just my take as someone who has only been on the periphery of creepy armageddon sex shit.

[Malken]

I agree, but is there really anyone left on Armageddon in 2021 who still attempting to create rape or even rape'ish (I can't believe someone actually had to type a massively descriptive description of what is considered intercourse on Armageddon in the rape help file) scenes after all the discussions we've had on it?

That document was written because it was a problem even if you did not personally experience it.  And from talking to other players who have recently experienced versions of this that are still allowed by the rules, it is still a problem, and one that should be fixed.  Just saying it's 2021 has not fixed many problems with our culture surrounding consent as much as we would like to think it has.

Fair enough and I agree. I'm sorry to hear that this kind of problem is still going on in Armageddon.

[Is Friday]

Coerced sex is NOT OKAY. It doesn't matter if you, the victim, is male, female, or non-binary - you said no and the other party or parties used things like threats, guilt-tripping, blackmail, or even drugs to force your consent their way. That is a culture that should NOT be fed.

Being badgered by a PC day in and day out for sex is /annoying/ and ruins the game for me when my PC said /no/ or showed /disinterest/.

Not to mention it seems extremely lopsided which sex this happens to, and it also seems to come with IC consequences if sidestepped or ignored. I haven't seen it in a long time, likely due to style of PCs I play, but I 100% believe it happens. I've heard of it, through IC channels, and firmly believe any PC in a position of coded power/authority should not pursue storylines which involve sexual coercion, whether actual or implied, due to the thorny nature of OOC/IC consent. I'm not talking about relationships which evolve naturally or are being pursued/lopsided, I'm talking about, for example, a templar telling a female PC that they should do x sexual acts for them and heavily implying that they'll be killed if they don't. This actually happened to a female PC.

On the slight derail:
Do some female PCs play up the inherent sexism that remains and/or take advantage of it? Sure. Doesn't mean male PCs aren't equally culpable of falling for/feeding into the culture. The game culture has improved a lot over the last decade or so, but I think we still have work to do. Take a PC's personality as their personality, whether female, male, non-binary, and accept that there are different sexualities all across the spectrum, including ace, and treat it completely IC. Leave your westernized notions at the door, including the subtle and not-so-subtle double standards.

I can't tell you how many times, on my male PCs, I've noticed that the exact same behavior which would get me bullied or censured or gossiped about as a female PC, I was looked up to or given a pass for. This isn't just involving sex, it's involving attitudes, presentation, perceived masculinity, everything. Women who stand up for themselves = bitches, men who stand up for themselves = confident, women who are "one of the boys" = cool, men who are feminine = uncool... these sorts of outdated attitudes are still prevalent and form a strong undercurrent in how the game's "politics" are played.

tl;dr - the game environment is better, but we need to keep working to leave RL learned behavior at the door.

Echoing Delirium here:
One of the more annoying things about playing so many female PCs is the assumption that I am somehow at "an advantage". This isn't the case.

When I play confident females they are treated as "bitches" regardless of their environment. Politics, mercenary org, trade org, etc. When my PC does things or says things, they are disregarded as incompetent first and must crawl uphill to prove their competence. I have in excruciating detail experienced that when I play "new" or "inexperienced" females they are treated as sexual prizes to be won, (which is generally why I don't play 'inexperienced females'.) And by won, I mean sexual quid pro quo. It's exhausting.

Male PCs do not have this problem IG.

[Lizzie]

I think all situations involving sex should be FTB. That'd solve all problems I think. You'd never have to wonder if the person behind the keyboard is trying to creep out on you with a text-porn episode.

[Khorm]

I think all situations involving sex should be FTB. That'd solve all problems I think. You'd never have to wonder if the person behind the keyboard is trying to creep out on you with a text-porn episode.

either a third of the playerbase would evaporate overnight or there would be way more dope plots. maybe both.

i don't think this is a realistic solution.

possibly we should restrict it to three karma accounts though.