Coercion, manipulation, and sex.

[Malken]

I'm on my cellphone and I rarely get on GDB. But when I can, I'll leave my two cents.

-stoa

Poor Stoa, he/she may never get that chance

[mansa]

So, I've decided to rewrite the consent policy to something I like a bit better.

Please give any feedback for the changes.


Consent

There are few restrictions on roleplay in ArmageddonMUD.

Rape/Sexual Torture plotlines are not to be played out in the game. See 'help rape' for further elaboration on this subject and a definition of what is considered rape in ArmageddonMUD.

Erotic roleplay and graphic torture are permissible roleplaying scenes to explore in ArmageddonMUD.  However, before instigating such an act with another player, you need to communicate using the OOC command to make sure that the role play is consented to, in each and every scene it happens.  You must do this as you can't be sure that you are alone in every situation, and as such consent must be addressed every time.  As well, fellow players may be comfortable in roleplaying these scenes during some days, and may not be comfortable the next day.  Perhaps a good analogy is the movie ratings system: some players may wish to see the details acted out in a way which would deserve an R rating while other players might prefer that the details be communicated in an Out-Of-Character fashion and left offstage.

Some examples would be:
OOC Consent to torture?
OOC Sure, bring on the blood.

OOC Consent to erotic roleplay?
OOC I want to fade-to-black and pick up after.

If someone is instigating roleplay that makes you uncomfortable, please use the OOC command to state that they should stop. If they continue despite being told to stop, please use the wish command and 'wish all' immediately to notify the staff.

If you act out a graphic sequence without first obtaining the other player's consent, and the player then complains within a reasonable amount of time (so that the runlogs can be checked and the complaint verified), you will be banned for thirty (30) days for the first offense, permanently for the second offense. If the Producers deem an act that is a first offense especially egregious, you will be permanently banned. Please use common sense and have respect for other people's sensibilities.

In the case of mutilation, an action that would cause a character to lose their ability to function in some way, the victim may request that they be killed by the procedure.  It is then the instigator's responsibility to attempt to kill the victim, or take some other appropriate course of action. The victim should not request other punishments, bargain, or otherwise discuss the situation out of character beyond this provision.  Castration/sterilization must not be roleplayed out in gory detail, as it is a form of sexual torture.

Armageddon is a game with some mature themes, and included among those are things that some players may find more or less appealing to play out for any number of reasons. If you find yourself in a situation that does not go against the rules listed above, though you would rather not play in that situation you still have a recourse available to you: You may WISH ALL to request direct assistance from staff (please provide applicable information and see HELP WISH). When possible, we will offer an avenue out of the scene, and when not we will offer a swift end to your PC. (In situations that call for a swift end.) None of this will be done without confirmation from you, the player, first.

Consent Not Required:
-A tattoo is forced upon your character. (Mutilation is considered the loss of a body part, such as a limb or an ear.)
-You are in a room with another player who is in a state of undress, though no sexual connotations can be discerned. (Certain cultures in game may be more liberal with their view on clothing.)
-You are being whipped with the 'whip' command, but no gruesome or visceral emotes are being emoted. (Command echoes are not considered 'mutilation', and are a part of the game.)

If there are any questions to be had regarding this rule, please submit a Game Related Question Request at your earliest possible convenience.

Notes:
You must be 18 years of age or older to ask for or give consent for sexual roleplay.



I rearranged the policy to state:

• Some things aren't allowed
• Rape
• Other things are, however, you must do this action.   Reason why.
• Example how to ask for consent
• What to do if you're uncomfortable
• What happens if you don't ask for consent
• Clarification of mutilation with regards to loss of character function, plus castration
• Summary
• Clarification of specific events for when consent is not required.

I've changed 'adult roleplay' to 'erotic roleplay'.
I've removed the line about 'This rule is not meant to be abused in order to allow characters to escape the consequences.'  - this is a troublesome line, when NOT talking about torture.
I've edited the line about 'younger players' and just made it 'other players'.
I've added specific examples on how one should ask for consent
I've removed the double-reference to rape being banned.

[Wedi]

Well done Mansa, I like it a lot.

[Lotion]

My one qualm is this phrasing:

Castration/sterilization must not be roleplayed out in gory detail, as it is a form of sexual torture.

I would rephrase it as:

Code Select Expand

Castration/sterilization must not be roleplayed out in gory detail, as then it would cross into the realm of sexual torture.

[Magnate]

The line of where you must request consent has moved slowly over the years and, bluntly, I think that it is absolutely ridiculous. Consent for anything is a silly idea. The entire world in which we play is a horrible place - if you can't handle that, you should likely be playing a different game instead of wanting more and more restrictions here.

***Re-written to remove any hint of personal attacks***
100% Disagree, This is probably one of the most disgusting post I have ever read in my entire Armageddon career. If you, not you specifically Magnate but anyone, believe that allowing people to opt out of sex, rape, or something that makes them uncomfortable is NOT OK, maybe you should check yourself and ask yourself these questions:
1. How does, effectively, forcing people to do sex/rape/fantasy scenes that they would rather opt out of enriching the game/Storyline?
2. Why do I have a problem respecting other players' boundaries?
3. Why do I feel everyone should be forced to go along with a scene I am pushing that makes the PLAYER uncomfortable?

One last question for everyone:
1. Why does anyone think Rape RP, being played/emoted out and forced onto another player, of any kind is ok and enriches the game?

I am not certain why you are fixating on the sexual aspect of the consent rules but since that is all that you seemed concerned about, I am happy to offer my opinions and answer your questions.

1) It is a harsh world where characters are treated in absolutely horribles ways. It is like going in to watch a R-Rated movie and then complaining that the content that you watch disturbs you and demanding everyone else in the theatre censor it.

2) Boundaries are a good thing. We are talking about a text-based-game and words, not real situations.

3) No one is forced to play the game (or the movie, like referenced above). With that same logic, why should others be forced to adjust themselves for you?

With that said, you seem to be trying to present me as some sort of sexual deviant who thrives on rape scenes. I have been playing Armageddon since the 1990s and I do not believe that I have EVER initiated any sort of sexual torture, rape, or anything similar. I do not enjoy sexual scenes and I fade to black when I find my character in that situation - it just isn't my thing. Fading was an option for many years and still ought to be instead of simply cancelling something that, as unpleasant as it might be IRL, is part of the game and likely rather rampant in the virtual world.

I do not believe that I have anything further to contribute so I doubt that I will reply (or even read) here any further but since you wanted to make assumptions about me, I thought that I might take a moment to respond. If you look at the other replies to my comment, most of them are just toeing the line of personal attacks and aren't really worth the recognition. I find it to be a sad state when cancel culture has gone so far as to infiltrate a text-based game that has always marketed itself as being harsh and "if you don't like it, too bad" and that when someone expresses an opinion contrary to someone else's they seem to just initiate personal attacks (which also don't hurt, by the way...they are just words).

Edited to add:
I should clarify, I am not advocating to force people to play out scenes that they do not want to. Fade-to-black is a thing and has worked just fine for a very long time. I AM advocating against simply banning or cancelling anything that could take place in the environment that we play in.

[Robespierre]

I find it to be a sad state when cancel culture has gone so far as to infiltrate a text-based game that has always marketed itself as being harsh and "if you don't like it, too bad" and that when someone expresses an opinion contrary to someone else's they seem to just initiate personal attacks (which also don't hurt, by the way...they are just words).

I don't think anyone is trying to cancel you over expressing your opinion of the rules. No one suggested you should be banned from the GDB, the game, the discord, or any other forum by which you might express your opinion. To the extent there was an ad hominem attack, staff stepped in and stopped it, so even if expression could constitute cancellation (which it does not), it certainly has yet to infiltrate Armageddon.

[Malken]

Can we switch the two?

Some examples would be:
OOC Consent to torture?
OOC I want to fade-to-black and pick up after.

OOC Consent to erotic roleplay?
OOC Sure, bring on the blood.

[Bast]

Throwing my 2 cents in..I have been playing Arm nearly two decades. I have totally stored characters because of sexual harassment. Like I have dealt with that in real life I have no desire to repeatably make it clear to you that I don't want to see your characters naughty bits. If your in a position of power over another PC you absolutely should ask for consent in my humble opinion. I stored a beloved 1+years played aide because the new boss was getting seriously rapey and it was making playing unbearable for me. I will say it has gotten way WAY better since rape was banned from the game.

Not going to call anyone out but there are players I know are men that play woman and are horrible with sexual harassment stuff. I can literally tell who they are by the behavior. I don't think we need more rules though. I think if someone is under you, you as a player should maybe ask consent before putting another player in a situation where they may not feel like its okay to say no. Also no means no if you get the impression they aren't interested read the room and move on.

[Bast]

Also I have seen female PC's die by the hands of the PC that was sexually harassing them. I am not gonna dig up old issues but it seems like the murderer always avoids trouble for it by using a thinly veiled excuse to blame it on some other reason.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You should ask for consent for any scene that could be harassing, as far as I am concerned, whether you rank higher or lower, but I also think the person being harassed needs to feel free to express malcontent as well. I say this latter bit because you may begin the scene thinking that you'll be cool with it, and then it goes too far. At which point you should absolutely feel comfortable with withdrawing your OOC consent.

As a whole, we need to all be comfortable with both expressing our limit and accepting other people's limits. The only thing I dislike about the current system, is that certain scenes are not capable of being played even between people who wish to play them. That, and the fact that somehow people who may be the victims don't feel comfortable expressing in an out-of-character manner that they don't want to play those scenes. You should feel comfortable doing that and expecting the other player to give you the respect you deserve.

[Robespierre]

On top of Mansa's awesome edits, do we think an OOC notification command, a requirement that the other player adjust their IC motivations, and easy to find encouragement to use that command liberally would solve the problem?

It sounds like some players are having a lot of fun playing out coercive storylines, and we shouldn't ruin that for them. It sounds like other players are getting justifiably OOCly annoyed when characters just won't take the friggin' "no". It also appears characters that won't take the "no" would face staff action, but the incidents are going unreported. Maybe a separate command, visible only to the pursuing player and staff, would encourage use and reporting if the command isn't honored.

You might still have pretextual killings, with the offender using some IC fig leaf justification for the murder while being primarily motivated by the fact another character wouldn't sleep with them, but with such a command, you would at least have evidence helping to show the the real motivation behind the murder.

[Malken]

As a whole, we need to all be comfortable with both expressing our limit and accepting other people's limits. The only thing I dislike about the current system, is that certain scenes are not capable of being played even between people who wish to play them. That, and the fact that somehow people who may be the victims don't feel comfortable expressing in an out-of-character manner that they don't want to play those scenes. You should feel comfortable doing that and expecting the other player to give you the respect you deserve.

I think this has a lot to do with the fact that certain scenes between two consenting players tend to never really stay between these two players.

I may be wrong but I vaguely remember that the no-rape rule was established not because we had a serial rapist in our midst but because a female character was making false rape accusations left and right that completely destroyed someone's role and had repercussion all over the city as well as OOCly. I also think that it wasn't the first time that this female character/player had done that in the past.

While you're probably not talking about rape scenes in particular, there are a lot of other scenes that would probably end up creating whole messes for Staff to deal with when it starts affecting players in contact with the two consenting players.

[Narf]

On top of Mansa's awesome edits, do we think an OOC notification command, a requirement that the other player adjust their IC motivations, and easy to find encouragement to use that command liberally would solve the problem?

I think this adding a command that privately opts out of sexual rp would both help shyer players that don't want to publicly broadcast their discomfort avoid being the center of such a scene, as well as cut down on unwanted harassment rp that isn't technically against the rules.

[LindseyBalboa]

Just want to circle back and touch base on the original topic: either coercive sex is put into the category of 'not allowed to be played out or role-played about even if two players wish to,' with the rest of rape, or it isn't.

Moving on, a toggle that says "I don't consent to graphic RP" leaves the character open for said RP, still, under the current rules. It just would mean, without a rule change, that it's known they're going to FTB. If it made players feel more comfortable and solves the issue, I'm all for it, although I would caution that not having that flag up will mean to some players that a player is inviting said RP. I don't know if it's really a better system than just asking consent before starting graphic role-play. You'd still have to do that, because you might not see everyone in the room.

Honestly, after reading so many responses, I think that providing more documentation edits that clearly urge players who feel harassed as players to contact staff, and a very transparent (at least, to the player who submitted the complaint, and the individual that has been complained about) system of handling those complaints, would be the best step to take - reinforcing that there are no in game or out of game punishments allowed to stem from such complaints. Nearly every instance mentioned here and in Discord has been something that should have been reported - a player feeling like they had to ERP or face punishment instead of just FTBing, a player feeling pressured by their character's superior continually trying to sexually harass them or pressure them into sex every time they log in, etc.

This is a graphic, adult game, but we're still a community of people getting together to be nerds. It should be fun for everyone, even if it shouldn't cater to everyone.

[Patuk]

As a whole, we need to all be comfortable with both expressing our limit and accepting other people's limits. The only thing I dislike about the current system, is that certain scenes are not capable of being played even between people who wish to play them. That, and the fact that somehow people who may be the victims don't feel comfortable expressing in an out-of-character manner that they don't want to play those scenes. You should feel comfortable doing that and expecting the other player to give you the respect you deserve.

I think this has a lot to do with the fact that certain scenes between two consenting players tend to never really stay between these two players.

I may be wrong but I vaguely remember that the no-rape rule was established not because we had a serial rapist in our midst but because a female character was making false rape accusations left and right that completely destroyed someone's role and had repercussion all over the city as well as OOCly. I also think that it wasn't the first time that this female character/player had done that in the past.

While you're probably not talking about rape scenes in particular, there are a lot of other scenes that would probably end up creating whole messes for Staff to deal with when it starts affecting players in contact with the two consenting players.

This literally happened to me, yes. One moment you're patrolling with your Legionnaire, the other moment Nyr is politely asking why he has sixteen character reports mentioning your character as a brutal rapist. These complaints got my character discharged by his sergeant even after our Templar found and killed the person responsible, so yeah, nah, I'm pretty god damn happy that this won't become a thing again.

[Brytta Léofa]

This literally happened to me, yes. One moment you're patrolling with your Legionnaire, the other moment Nyr is politely asking why he has sixteen character reports mentioning your character as a brutal rapist. These complaints got my character discharged by his sergeant even after our Templar found and killed the person responsible, so yeah, nah, I'm pretty god damn happy that this won't become a thing again.

To play devil's advocate...that just sounds like a really successful smear campaign. Pretty unpleasant for you as a player, but it's a different justification than "let's please not trigger players who have experienced sexual assault."

For completeness, some arguments for why the current rule banning even accusations of rape should maybe exist even so:
- Not a lot of non-creepy players playing rapists. Therefore accusing a PC of rape = accusing a player of being creepy.
- It galvanizes the playerbase into widespread poor play. Like, as the GDB has often claimed, accusing a PC of pickpocketing. (Unlike the real world, where everybody would be like, "yeah maybe but she's such a promising young Legionnaire!")

[Ama]

I agree with Lindsey on this, and I like all of the changes and efforts that Mansa has kindly made.

We should try to keep it fun for everyone. The hurdle with fun in a dark, gritty theme is there's a multitude of scenarios that can leave you feeling used and slimy.

Let's play this in metaphorical analysis. An example: you're a player who doesn't like or enjoy erotic roleplay, but you get in good with Goolash, a merchant of house Tiddlywinks. The merchant of Tiddlywinks promises you favor, fortune, fancy clothes if you sleep with him, stay with him and be his mate. You consent to the scenes without fading.

However, Goolash lied to you. He just wanted to hit it and quit it. After having his taste of you, he doesn't cater or fulfill any of his promises, and instead, talks about how lackluster and boring you are.

On top of that, after you start telling how despicable he is to others, he has you killed, because he has the means to.

While it wasn't pressured or coerced in a way that's extremely offensive, it's still an un-fun experience that leaves you a bit jaded. This's an entirely hypothetical situation that I could see actually happening. In this situation a flag may or may not have helped. It's more about a scummy person doing scummy things, and there has to be some "Buyer Beware" for what kind of roleplay you're purchasing with your time.

As brought up earlier, though, as a counterpoint, there's also the players who try to get favor by seduction with feminine wiles as somewhat of a counterargument. Yeah, I can see this. But sexual harassment affects more women, this is a fact. If they're looking for coins, I think a more productive use of time would be spamming "forage", but for politics, I guess it could be useful. If you cross certain lines or hit certain pet peeves, I bet people will PK you regardless of playstyle or gender.

[Ama]

As a whole, we need to all be comfortable with both expressing our limit and accepting other people's limits. The only thing I dislike about the current system, is that certain scenes are not capable of being played even between people who wish to play them. That, and the fact that somehow people who may be the victims don't feel comfortable expressing in an out-of-character manner that they don't want to play those scenes. You should feel comfortable doing that and expecting the other player to give you the respect you deserve.

I think this has a lot to do with the fact that certain scenes between two consenting players tend to never really stay between these two players.

I may be wrong but I vaguely remember that the no-rape rule was established not because we had a serial rapist in our midst but because a female character was making false rape accusations left and right that completely destroyed someone's role and had repercussion all over the city as well as OOCly. I also think that it wasn't the first time that this female character/player had done that in the past.

While you're probably not talking about rape scenes in particular, there are a lot of other scenes that would probably end up creating whole messes for Staff to deal with when it starts affecting players in contact with the two consenting players.

This literally happened to me, yes. One moment you're patrolling with your Legionnaire, the other moment Nyr is politely asking why he has sixteen character reports mentioning your character as a brutal rapist. These complaints got my character discharged by his sergeant even after our Templar found and killed the person responsible, so yeah, nah, I'm pretty god damn happy that this won't become a thing again.

That's a especially infuriating because of the out of character connotations that might follow that affect you and the game.

[Malken]

To play devil's advocate...that just sounds like a really successful smear campaign. Pretty unpleasant for you as a player, but it's a different justification than "let's please not trigger players who have experienced sexual assault."

For completeness, some arguments for why the current rule banning even accusations of rape should maybe exist even so:
- Not a lot of non-creepy players playing rapists. Therefore accusing a PC of rape = accusing a player of being creepy.
- It galvanizes the playerbase into widespread poor play. Like, as the GDB has often claimed, accusing a PC of pickpocketing. (Unlike the real world, where everybody would be like, "yeah maybe but she's such a promising young Legionnaire!")

How do you know that a player has never been falsely accused of rape irl and now you're throwing that accusation in their face in the game and they're now stuck reliving that moment through a lame plot that you know, as a female character making that accusation, 99.9% of the playerbase will believe it no matter what and also stick to you forever as a player because everyone still talks to everyone else about what is going on in the game and who is doing what on Discord (used to be AIM)?

How is that even different than 'let's please not trigger players who have experience sexual assault.'

You can't just say that one thing is bad and another is fine.. Who even judges that? Rape is bad, sexual assault is bad.. Accusing someone of rape is fine... Murder is ok.. Theft is ok... Terrorism is fine... Beheading someone is super cool, go for it... Bullying is ok... 

[Patuk]

This literally happened to me, yes. One moment you're patrolling with your Legionnaire, the other moment Nyr is politely asking why he has sixteen character reports mentioning your character as a brutal rapist. These complaints got my character discharged by his sergeant even after our Templar found and killed the person responsible, so yeah, nah, I'm pretty god damn happy that this won't become a thing again.

To play devil's advocate...that just sounds like a really successful smear campaign. Pretty unpleasant for you as a player, but it's a different justification than "let's please not trigger players who have experienced sexual assault."

I'd much rather people use any other smear, at all, than the rape accusations that happened over there. Which people do now! And have been, for a while. It is the better policy.

And - yeah, see also Malken's posts. People respond to accusations of rape to such an exaggerated degree that it's a toy I'd rather nobody gets to use. It really is that dumb.

[SodaDogARM]

The whole 'no one is forced to play the game' argument is odd if you put emphasis on 'game' and the concurring argument that people should have to deal with rapey trash in their hobby.

Change the docs, please.

[Brytta Léofa]

That's a especially infuriating because of the out of character connotations that might follow that affect you and the game.

And - yeah, see also Malken's posts. People respond to accusations of rape to such an exaggerated degree that it's a toy I'd rather nobody gets to use. It really is that dumb.

Well, see, those are exactly the two reasons I proposed.

How do you know that a player has never been falsely accused

Brother I trust that there's a good faith argument here, but some bad things are different from other bad things. We're privileging rape because in our culture (and maybe universally) it's a crime we treat as on par with murder, and it's relatively widespread (whereas, though there's plenty of murder in Armageddon, few players have experienced a murder attempt). The bright line is not just "here is a bad thing that players may have experienced in real life."

I still stan House Kawai tho.

Anyway, not sure why I'm arguing here; I do not desire a policy change. Just interested me that the conversation changed kind of implicitly from "this is uniquely bad for players who have been victimized outside of the game" to "this generates poor plotlines/throws shade on players."

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Hmm. Yeah, those are some exceptionally good points. For the record, I'm just fine with our existing guidelines, and I certainly feel like we (probably) don't need to add more stuff that can't be played out. But in the light of those excellent points made above, I don't think I'd like to see degradation of our existing rules, either, because I hate the existing suppositions about players that already exists.

I think a POOC [target]  command would be great, so that you could target a player with OOC privately. Not only would it confine some of these sort of sensitive conversations you might need to have to just you two, but it would also have other neat applications like helping newbies and such things in a less disruptive way. I'd probably add it to the log system to make sure it doesn't abused or anything.

[Maso]

Let's play this in metaphorical analysis. An example: you're a player who doesn't like or enjoy erotic roleplay, but you get in good with Goolash, a merchant of house Tiddlywinks. The merchant of Tiddlywinks promises you favor, fortune, fancy clothes if you sleep with him, stay with him and be his mate. You consent to the scenes without fading.

However, Goolash lied to you. He just wanted to hit it and quit it. After having his taste of you, he doesn't cater or fulfill any of his promises, and instead, talks about how lackluster and boring you are.

Why in krath would you, in this situation, NOT FADE? If you don't like or enjoy ERP, but your character would totally be cool with this situation and wants all the sweet loot. You FADE! If the other PC does not treat that exactly the same way (e.g. the characters had a blast) then that would be complaint worthy. A fade should be entirely equal to a played out scene in terms of using it as currency...for a character.

[Malken]

However, Goolash lied to you. He just wanted to hit it and quit it. After having his taste of you, he doesn't cater or fulfill any of his promises, and instead, talks about how lackluster and boring you are.

On top of that, after you start telling how despicable he is to others, he has you killed, because he has the means to.

While it wasn't pressured or coerced in a way that's extremely offensive, it's still an un-fun experience that leaves you a bit jaded. This's an entirely hypothetical situation that I could see actually happening. In this situation a flag may or may not have helped. It's more about a scummy person doing scummy things, and there has to be some "Buyer Beware" for what kind of roleplay you're purchasing with your time.

I'm not sure what you're saying here... Are you saying that your hypothetical situation should be banned from ever happening? I can't tell if you're a new player or not, but you need to know what you're getting yourself by playing Armageddon..

'scummy person doing scummy things' is pretty much Armageddon's tagline.

Also, here's your 'Buyer Beware' warning for the kind of roleplay and experience you're purchasing with your time on Armageddon - At any time you might be killed for the dumbest of reasons. You might be having the time of your life and it took you 3 months to get there and someone will murder you without any emotes just because they don't like the color of your hair, or you might die because your internet dropped for a minute while you were outside hunting.