naming names

[Cuttlefish]

Here's a little idea I want to throw out there.  Either way, it's a feature I already have, due to my use of a mud client.

Basically, I have a zMUD alias called "name".  I use it like:

> name {the short, smelly dwarf} Kuup

It then creates a trigger, so that this:

The short, smelly dwarf stands here.

Is changed to:

The short, smelly dwarf named Kuup stands here.

It does this anytime his sdesc appears - tells/says/emote/etc.

I find it a lot more fun to do this than to have to dig back through some log for some characters name or significant that my character SHOULD know.  Once instance this is really helpful is for nobles.  You don't want to confuse your noble with another simply because their sdescs are very similar (an OOC distinction since their descriptions might be completely different).

Anyway, I think this would be a handy command in a mud like Arm.  First, it gives the player the control over what appears, so it's not like you're back to the stock diku with "NeoTheOne stands here."  Second, sdescs are very limited.  I talked to "the thin dark-haired" (sdescs changed to protect the innocent) for quite a bit one day and he left a real impression on me.  Unfortunately, this is a very plain sdesc.  RL Days later, I was playing and walked into a tavern where this PC was at.  I wouldn't even have recognized him if not for that previous alias.

So, to summarize, you'd have a name command with some limited number of slots.  This would be nicer if Arm had it built-in, because it could fill in the full sdesc for you.  Something like this:

Code Select Expand


The thin, dark-haired man stands here.
The slender, sapphire-eyed woman stands here.
> name thin Xolo
You name the thin, dark-haired man Xolo.
> l
The thin, dark-haired man named Xolo stands here.
The slender, sapphire-eyed woman stands here.
> name
You have the following names defined:
Xolo: the thin, dark-haired man

> name slender Lady Paloma
You name the slender, sapphire-eyed woman Lady Paloma.
> l
The thin, dark-haired man named Xolo stands here.
The slender, sapphire-eyed woman named Lady Paloma stands here.
> name
You have the following names defined:
Xolo       : the thin, dark-haired man
Lady Paloma: the slender, sapphire-eyed woman


[mansa]

Heh.  I do almost exactly that...however.

I use the built in Alias command.   But, your limited to ten of them

Help Alias

[mansa]

Well, not exactly that.

Mines more of..a reminder

>alias
Your aliases
------------
name           sdesc (house rank jobs)
name           sdesc (house rank jobs)
name           sdesc (house rank jobs)
name           sdesc (house rank jobs)
name           sdesc (house rank jobs)
------------

[creeper386]

It's a good idea, but over all it'd be abit tricky I think. As well as your things won't be too reliable if someone comes along with the same sdesc. May not be common but the MUD has a quick turn over rate. Lots of sdescs are similar bound to be some that are the same.

Problems I see in it... It wouldn't be the easiest thing to code really, and that doesn't help when you can really do the same thing with paying attention to things... Also when the same thing can be done with notepad really. Also... It'd allow you to tag whoever you want with a tag and automatically know them when you see them next. It'd really help screw over sneaky type characters when they already are climbing up a sleep slope created by the code.

Basically, you can do it in your clients, but I wouldn't recommend it. But then I also think working to get the automapper on clients to work is abit twinky. If your going to use a mapper at least do it manually. Put some work into the MUD it won't hurt you. Just to give you an idea. So far I have 813kb of text files just for Arm. Although about half of that is a fairly short HRPT log. That's mostly just general knowledge of the World that I have down that don't require me to search though documents and such. Also I'll sometimes keep a notepad running of people my character knows fairly well. Mostly just name and sdesc although sometimes include notes that I would know. Doing this is not only just as easy as alias' and such. It's alittle more flexible. Also it takes alittle more energy and abit more thought then just five words and you've perma labeled someone.

I don't know... I think you people take the easy way out too much. It's not too difficult to keep track of names and such or to keep a map without having some nearly fail proof code create everything for you. Wussies.

Creeper

[Cuttlefish]

creeper>
*shrug*
When I played Arm about 5 or 6 years ago, I had telnet on a dumb terminal.  I would have called quite a bit of your examples of how you keep track of things "twinkish", I suppose.  Just keep it all in your head, right?  Notepad, what's that?

Anyway, over the years, I've changed my mind about a lot of things.  Especially in regards to an RP-centered mud like Arm.  I don't see how it's any more beneficial to the RP to draw your maps on graph paper, doing this:

> west
(Minute or two of graphing, making sure it fits when the maps don't line up linearly)
> west
(Minute or two of graphing, making sure it fits when the maps don't line up linearly)
(Crap, didn't line up right because they made it non-lineary.  Five minutes spent erasing and redrawing stuff to make it fit.)
> west

Or this:

The thin, dark-haired man is standing here.
> emote bows deeply to ~thin.
The thin, dark-haired man says, in sirihish:
 "What the hell was that for?"
> ooc Oops, I thought you were the thin, BLACK-haired man

Yeah, that's real helpful to RP.  Or, better yet, insert before the bow:
(Minutes shuffling through papers or opening Notepad, loading sdesc list, searching through it, and misreading the line)

I also find it just SO much fun when I'm following someone who is supposed to have lived in a city all their life and they totally get lost.  Uh huh, very IC.


Bleh.  That's not what I'm here for.  If that's what whips your kank, go for it.  I'd rather spend all that extra time playing.

[Angela Christine]

I have to agree with Creeper.  :gasp:

Forgetting the name of someone you don't know well is realistic, there is nothing wrong with forgetting a name you didn't bother to commit to memory.  Since I am not as entwined in my character's life as the character itself is, I see nothing wrong with manually recording the name, that is equivilent to the effort the character itself would make commiting the name to memory.  If they aren't important enough to write "Amos - the black bearded mul, borsail slave" on my notepad, then they probably were not so important that my character would remember their names either.

Of course this problem would go away if every character was named Amos.

 
AC

[Cuttlefish]

I see nothing wrong with manually recording the name, that is equivilent to the effort the character itself would make commiting the name to memory.

But that is exactly what I'm talking about.  The difference is that your manual way is to jot it down on a piece of paper (sounds like from your description).  My manual way is to type "name {the black bearded mul, borsail slave} Amos".  Someone else's might be to type it into a Word document or into a text file in Notepad.  I just don't understand how it's suddenly "better" to waste time that you could spend playing the game when we've both agreed we're going to take notes.  Is it "better" to keep you pen in another room so that each time you write a name down, you have to make the EFFORT of getting your pen from the other room?

Also, if you'll notice, I said I thought there should be a limit to the number of names the mud stores.  If you said something like a dozen, you wouldn't be naming every dwarf, elf and human that crossed your path.  You'd just stick with the ones that were *gasp* important enough to remember.

For those who can keep everything in their memory, more power to you.  Not everyone has those amazing mental powers, and they take notes.  I just don't understand the argument that somehow it's "better" to take notes in a more time-consuming and disorganized fashion.

[Rindan]

I don't really care if a player sets up a trigger to do this for them, however, I don't think it should be a MUD feature, if for no other reason then it creates artificial behavior.  A MUD I played on had this feature.  It led to people immediately declaring their names when they met someone and never forgetting them again.  I personally find it a little more organic to just write it down.  Whether or not I write someone's name down depends upon how lazy I am feeling and what my chances of having to know their name again is.  The result is that if I casually meet someone who I probably wouldn't remember, I won't recognize them a year or two later.  For people I am familiar with and deal with often I am constantly reminded of what they look like due to their sdesc description.  It is just cleaner then a perfect memory and a little more organic.

More power to you if you want to set it up in triggers, but I think it sends the wrong message, especially to newer players if it is a hard coded feature.  It is one of those things that makes Armageddon immediately stand out from many other MUDs, and it is not something I would want to see go away.  Besides, if it is a big issue, the tools are all there to do it yourself.  I would just be careful.  Some times people's descriptions change.  It is always an embarrassing moment when you ask your best friend since childhood who the hell he is because he changed his sdesc to reflect he is older.

[Malifaxis]

I have a question.

It's an honest question... not meant to be an insult.

But some people will see it that way, regardless.

ARE YOU ALL FUCKING POT HEADS???

Why can you not remember people?  Yeah, sure, I used a notepad to keep track of names for like my first 3 pcs.  Then I got tired of it.  Then I realized it was much more fun to forget peoples names on ocassion.  Why?  It makes things interesting.

say (his head inclining slightly) Sorry sir, I just came off of a week long spice and whore bender.  Could you give me your name again?

Malifaxis
-Who does partake at times and can STILL remember the 30+ odd PCs his PC knows, including not only name, but nickname, rank, and affiliaition.

[Lazloth]

Then I realized it was much more fun to forget peoples names on ocassion.  Why?  It makes things interesting.

Nowhere is it mentioned that Cuttle doesn't have an unname alias (even for the simple reason of reducing the overhead of the poor *nudge* zmud parsing).  Client substition or a notepad file or a piece of scratch paper is just an ooc convention, excepting that the player has the ability to determine whether or not the character has forgotten the name, blah blah.

[Rindan]

Some people write down names because they have horrible memories.  Off the top of my head I can't remember a single name of another person with my current character.  Granted, he is not terribly social, but he does know people.  If I feel like playing a forgetful character, it is very easy for me to RP.  Until that time notepad is a painless way to keep track of a few key names that I would hope my character could remember.  Notepad works fine because I generally only throw down names I should actually remember.  If I meet some half-breed or filthy elf, unless there was a reason to think I ever need them again, I likely don't bother to write down the name.

I think with my current character who is a few RL months old, I have about 15 names, easily half of which are dead people who I have kept in simply because they were important people from that character's past or I never bothered to remove.  15 is about par for all of my characters.  I tend to just occasionally go through it and clean out a few of the guys who are dead or I don't talk with.

[Cuttlefish]

No, I am not a pothead.  Kind of silly question since you yourself said you forget peoples names.  Then again, maybe you're implying that you are a pothead.  *shrug*

Again, I don't see how me, the player, forgetting is related to my PC forgetting.  He should forget because I forget?  I can RP him forgetting any time I want, even if I have it printing the name on the screen (or in other people's case, on a piece of paper).

Part of the reason that I need better notes (whether they are kept on paper or on the computer) is that with work and outside activities, I might not get to play one week.  I come back after a week off and find it absolutely silly that I can't remember if Zorg was "the blue-eyed ivory-hued man" (who also happens to be tall) or "the tall ivory-skinned man" (who also happens to have blue eyes).  This is actually VERY close to two sdescs I've run into within 5 minutes of each other.

If I was putting as many hours consistently into it that I did back in college, it would be a lot easier to remember.

IDEALLY, I would have it show me a picture of the person's face, rather than a name.  Then I really could use my human sense of recognition.  Unfortunately, we're not there yet and being able to tag them is as close as I can get to deal with the primitive OOC limitations of sdescs.

[Twilight]

My PC is smarter than me!  Thats why he can remember names and I can't.  I found it useful to jot down names for when I took breaks.  If I'm seeing someone every few days, sure I remember the name.  If I take a month long break and come back, I don't even remember my character's boss's name sometimes, heck with little played characters, I don't even remember my character's name!

I also find it useful when suddenly the following pop up:

the cute, cuddly curly-haired girl
the cuddly, cute curly-haired girl
the curly-haired, cuddly girl

and my character has the misfortune to know them all.  All that being said though, I don't think the mud needs anything to track all this, and I would especially hate anything that showed up regularly on your screen.  At best one needs "reference material" to look people up.

[Angela Christine]

Do what you want, but be careful.  There have been two PCs with the same sdesc in the same room at the same time before, it was funny enough a bunch of people posted about it on the GDB.  That has never happened to me, but I did once run into an NPC with the exact same sdesc as my character!  Luckily it wasn't the character's home city, so it was easy for her to avoid the NPC.  It happens more often than you might expect.  I usually just look at a PC before I talk to them, that prevents confusion if the sdesc is the same or similar to another character's sdesc.

AC

[creeper386]

First of all... Having a simple list in notepad really isn't that hard. Is hardly what you would call disorginized. Has practically no loading time specially when you load it up when you start up your client. Unlikely to get confused when reading the lists.

The thing comes down to you wanting to put as little effort into the MUD as you can. Well... When you have something else do everything for you it's not the same as doing it yourself. And using a automapper, or autonames is just plain messed up. You claim you can RP you character forgetting whenever you want? Well thats not going to happen when all the information is always shoved right in your face.

And making a map by hand isn't that hard. It may not automatically up in room exits and the room name and the room description for you, but you don't really need all that jazz. Just dots on a piece of paper with names for important things can work for knowing your way around and don't take any time.

Honestly, I can't do anything about anyone using their clients features however they want. And I honestly don't care. But it still don't mean that I'm going to think it's not right, or that no matter what you say, it WILL effect you ICly because you have all that information.

When you already know their name. You can refer to their name as a keyword instead of misreading both sdescs. Unless they have similar sdescs and names... But the main thing I'm posting about. Is that your way is going to be alittle less effective. If you see someone with the same sdesc your going to be like, oh this is my friend. Because your trigger isn't going to know any difference. And it's just going to be as jarring. I understand keeping notes, but when everything is that easy it's unrealistic. It's not that easy to remember someones name in the real world. It shouldn't be that easy in real life.

And the complaint that opening up notepad, copying a sdesc and typing their name is just too hard... Bull shit. Not only is it probably easier then keeping track of aliases it has alittle more realistic flow then just boom I know this person forever now no matter what.

Creeper
-Who almost thinks clients should be banned from RP muds.

[crymerci]

-Who almost thinks clients should be banned from RP muds.

There's no need to go overboard, here.  I think everyone should use whatever is most useful and convenient to them.

[Cuttlefish]

First of all... Having a simple list in notepad really isn't that hard. Is hardly what you would call disorginized. Has practically no loading time specially when you load it up when you start up your client. Unlikely to get confused when reading the lists.

To some people, memorizing them isn't that hard, either.  I don't see how one being easier than the other is a bad thing, since the point of the game isn't who's best at notetaking.

The thing comes down to you wanting to put as little effort into the MUD as you can.

On the contrary.  The thing comes down to me wanting to put as little effort into the OOC parts of the MUD as I can.  It's totally OOC that because of sdesc limitations and my own poor memory for names, my character can't recognize the guy he's supposed to know.

Well... When you have something else do everything for you it's not the same as doing it yourself. And using a automapper, or autonames is just plain messed up.

Again, it doesn't do everything for me.  If I wanted it to do it for me, I'd go download someone ELSES map.  I actually bought zMUD after playing Arm for a few days and being perpetually lost, even though my char was supposed to know the place like the back of his hand.  The worst was when I'd need to quit and be stumbling around, trying to find the tavern so I could log out.

You claim you can RP you character forgetting whenever you want? Well thats not going to happen when all the information is always shoved right in your face.

Sorry, I disagree.  I'm just THAT GOOD.

And making a map by hand isn't that hard. It may not automatically up in room exits and the room name and the room description for you, but you don't really need all that jazz. Just dots on a piece of paper with names for important things can work for knowing your way around and don't take any time.

I've graphed Arm before.  I'm happy it's quick for you, but it was a very slow pain in the ass for me.

Honestly, I can't do anything about anyone using their clients features however they want. And I honestly don't care. But it still don't mean that I'm going to think it's not right, or that no matter what you say, it WILL effect you ICly because you have all that information.

Think what you want, you're simply wrong when it comes to me.

When you already know their name. You can refer to their name as a keyword instead of misreading both sdescs.

Precisely my point.  I don't want to worry about misreading text on a screen when I'm trying to RP.  If I want my character to make a mistake, great.  But don't force it on me.

Unless they have similar sdescs and names... But the main thing I'm posting about. Is that your way is going to be alittle less effective. If you see someone with the same sdesc your going to be like, oh this is my friend. Because your trigger isn't going to know any difference. And it's just going to be as jarring.

And I don't have any problem with this.  If someone has the exact same sdesc, so be it.  There's no difference between my trigger and the name command I was suggesting.  I never suggested that it should actually tag it to the unique person, only the sdesc.  In this case, the trigger, the name command, and your notes would all be equally wrong.

I understand keeping notes, but when everything is that easy it's unrealistic. It's not that easy to remember someones name in the real world. It shouldn't be that easy in real life.

See, there's the problem.  You seem to be associating name with "everything about the person".  For me, it's simply the textual equivalent of their face.  Much more unique and recognizable than a three or four word sdesc, but it still doesn't tell me anything about them.  Even if I set it up to always say "the thin, black-haired man named Moe", that's meaningless to me unless I already know who Moe is and have RPed with him directly or indirectly.

As I said, I'm horrible at remembering names in real life, however, I can remember a face (as most humans can) easily.  Arm is like being forced to remember people based on their hairstyle and fingernail color.

And the complaint that opening up notepad, copying a sdesc and typing their name is just too hard... Bull shit. Not only is it probably easier then keeping track of aliases it has alittle more realistic flow then just boom I know this person forever now no matter what.

First, I just have to laugh at the claim that using Notepad is more realistic.  The pen and paper folks could easily come along behind you and use the exact same argument to tell you how unrealistic using notepad is instead of writing it down.

Second, read the above comment about what a name actually means again.  Just because I know the name doesn't mean I know the person.  Same way with recognizing a face.  I might recognize them, but might not be able to place *who* they are.

Creeper
-Who almost thinks clients should be banned from RP muds.

Cuttlefish
Who is always amazed by the vehemence some people have for doing the OOC stuff in an RP mud a more time-consuming way and saying it's somehow "better".

[Carnage]

I dunno, I just don't have a hard time doing these things. Generally, certain keywords come out at me if I don't remember someone's name. If I'm e-mailing a clan imm about who recruited me or talking with them I might say, if talking about the slim, serpent-like man, 'So I was walking along and Serpent-like followed me. I dodged around the corner and then attacked him. Serpent pretty much kicked my ass, but that's life.'

Most people pick nice, easy names. I think that in general, if a character has a name longer than six letters or one difficult to pronounce/able to have variations, they should choose a shortened name to use. There's some that are easy to remember because you can sound them out and it flows. Talidernis is one of those. However, Tailyderinys is much harder to remember since it's difficult to 'sound out'. Get the idea?

Certain areas stick out in my mind as well. Generally I get a feel for the desc length and I remember certain words in it. I'll notice the smallest thing, such as another line or the word not being in the same place and know it's someplace different or that I went too far. It's the 'picture' of the paragraph itself that lets me know where I am. In places like Tuluk, I generally have counts for the number of places I go and to get back. When I played in one clan the count to a tavern to the estate was something like one, eight, one, five, seven, three, eleven, two, nine, one, eight. That means one in one direction, eight in another, one in another, and so on.

Mapping would be nice. It would help with certain canyons and such, but the point of the Canyons of the Twisted Maze of Doom is to pretty much get you lost. I was on a RPT once with a person who obviously had a map. It basically ruined the entire RPT. It's no secret that maps circulate around and I'm damn sure this person was using one. They would basically announce every single notable location within a twenty room radius. Okay, we know you map and twink out. You don't need to ruin it for us. Suffice to say, it was difficult for me to retain my glee when that character died.

The only notes I keep are for my magickers. I log the spells that the game sends me in the acceptance mail and ones I discover along the way. I alias all of my 'emergency' spells so I don't have to go to my notepad file and C&P it while I'm getting beat on by a twenty-day old warrior. I don't see anything like that twinking out as remembering three gibberish words like 'katola medulikah obolungatsah' to set someone's underpants on fire is tough to do.

In sort, I have nothing against people making maps, using maps, making their own spell lists or whatever. If you need it to help you remember, great. Just try to play things out. When I have a magicker who discovers a new spell, the first thing I try to do is find a master who'll help apprentice them. The second thing I do is roleplay out for a while trying to figure out how to 'hone' it. During this time, I try to make guesses as to what's what. If I'm utterly and totally dumbfounded and cannot solve it for the life of me, I'll go back to my notes. Maps should be handled the same way. If you're looking for a store but don't know where it is, don't go searching through your old map of Allanak for it. Walk around for a while. If you're utterly and thoroughly stumped, then use it.

[Bestatte]

I don't use an automapper because I'm too lazy to get Zmud working right and I'm using Mushclient, which I don't even think has one. I'm too lazy to find out <grin>

I do, however, have a pretty extensive database for characters in Arm. I made it with MS Access (boo hiss) and it's very complex, but works very simply.

I meet someone new, plug in their sdesc. It brings up a window that allows me to name the person, or put a ? if I haven't learned their name yet. It has another field for me to include any specific clothes/armor/weapons that would help me recognize them with their hood up. Another field is for clan info - if they're clanned. And another field lets me put in how I know them. A final field is just notes - such as, "awesome RPer, can learn from them" or "this PC's sister killed my whiran last year" or just any silly thing I wanna add.

The entire database is completely cross-referenced to itself by field, and sortable by any field in alpha-numeric order, backward and forward.

If I see a very unusual weapon at the salarr shop and know it looks familiar but can't remember why, I pull up my trusty database, open the search engine by field, plug in the weapon in the "accessories" field, and POOF - the PC I remember having that weapon shows up, with every scrap of detail I bothered putting into their file.

If the PC outlives mine, and my new PC sees the same person, I'll add my new character's name to their file to remind me how THAT PC knows this person. That way I don't get the information confused.

It's hard sometimes, seeing Joe the Warrior with 3 different characters, and not remembering which of my characters knew him, and how. So my database keeps track for me, and that helps me avoid using info I learned from one of my characters in an inappropriate way by mistake.

I also print out a report every couple of weeks that shows an updated list of the characters that my *current* character knows.

At the present time, I have over 300 characters in my database. Most of them are long dead, but it's interesting to watch my own interactions with the game using the database as a timeline.

[Cuttlefish]

Carnage: Thanks for helping state the way I feel about it.  The tools don't make the game, it's how you roleplay it all out.  Even if I had a map of Tuluk (on graph paper or in zMUD), if I had a char who wasn't supposed to know Tuluk, I'd wander around, getting lost and asking for directions.  I'd put away the graph paper or close the map window.

The tools don't dictate your actions, they simply provide options for you to concentrate on the RP without getting entangled in problems that are strictly OOC.

As far as the character names go, I frequently think of this  cartoon when someone tells me their name on Arm.

"If you don't have some vaguely Celtic-sounding name going on, what is the point. I ask you. Next time you create a character, ask yourself: have I used enough Y's?"

[Cuttlefish]

Bestatte you twink!

:wink:

[Dan]

Bestatte, will you be my secretary? All the hotdogs and Dr. Pepper you could ever want!

[Angela Christine]

I was on a RPT once with a person who obviously had a map. It basically ruined the entire RPT. It's no secret that maps circulate around and I'm damn sure this person was using one. They would basically announce every single notable location within a twenty room radius. Okay, we know you map and twink out. You don't need to ruin it for us.

I'm curious about why you think the player was cheating.  Isn't it equally plausible that the character had previously explored the area, and remembered it?  Then they share that knowledge in an attempt to impress the other -characters- ICly.  The PC might not have a map object, but the player making a physical map to represent the character's mental map seems perfectly kosher to me.

But then I tend to give characters the benefit of the doubt, and assume that a character's knowledge is either something they aquired in play or something that their background makes plausible for them to know.  I don't think I've ever seen something I was sure was cheating, except on one occasion a SLK player emailed me to tell me that skill X branches from skill Y, and I should do things differently so that I would use skill Y more.  If someone acts like a know-it-all ICly, I assume that is the character's behavior, not the player.

AC

[Carnage]

I'm curious about why you think the player was cheating. Isn't it equally plausible that the character had previously explored the area, and remembered it? Then they share that knowledge in an attempt to impress the other -characters- ICly. The PC might not have a map object, but the player making a physical map to represent the character's mental map seems perfectly kosher to me.

Because the player was an enormous newbie and this was their third or fourth character. How did I know? Because they were such a newbie it was incredibly easy to tell who they were. I don't think it's possible that they explored the areas but I suppose there's always that .01% chance.