Author Topic: For craft's sake!  (Read 1267 times)

Maso

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For craft's sake!
« on: February 13, 2021, 08:50:17 AM »
I was going to tag this on to the QoL thread, but actually I think it's a bigger discussion.

From what I can see, there is no downside to making it a bit easier for people to figure out some crafting recipes. As it stands, it's possible to get mega rich with fairly basic recipes if that's your bag. Access to the more interesting recipes just means it's more fun, more opportunity for interesting items and recipes, more opportunity for engaging hunters for more random ingredients and less 'lost recipes' sat gathering dust in the database. I can't see any harm....only benefits? Although potentially some work.

It's something often complained about here and the GDB...all the time so.


1. Reinstate different echoes for failure to analyse (actually, as per the old days and the helpfile basically!) each of the following ought to have a different echos:

  • It has no recipe
  • You don't have the required skill
  • You have the required skill, but it's not high enough
  • It's gated behind a clan or similar

2. You can make something out of that...

You have a high skill:

Code: [Select]

> craft pole

You could make...
   1) a really nice polished pole from that. [polemaking, manageable]

You think you could also make a bone-headed prodding stick from that if you had a piece of bone and a scrap of leather.


Low skill:
Code: [Select]

> craft pole

You could make...
   1) a really nice polished pole from that. [polemaking, manageable]

You think you could also make a bone-headed prodding stick from that but you're missing something.



3. In the shops...ingredients

Code: [Select]

> view branch

This is a very nice branch. It looks really branchy.
You assess a branch...
...it is primarily made of branchyness.

You think you could make something from this.



4. In the shops...craftable goods..

Low skill and higher level, higher value crafts:
Code: [Select]

> view pole

This is probably the best pole you've ever seen.

You assess a pole...
...it is primarily made of wood.

You think you could make this.


Master skill, only for low level and basic crafts:
Code: [Select]

> view pole

This is probably the best pole you've ever seen.

You assess a pole...
...it is primarily made of wood.

You think you could make this from a piece of wood and a polished sapphire.


---

Curious to discuss. Obviously hopeful.
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Marauder Moe

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2021, 11:15:02 AM »
Agreed on all points.

Though I might suggest explicit >craft command wildcards for a more database-friendly implementation.  Probably limit to one wildcard at a time, maybe more with high/master skill.

creeper386

  • Posts: 2628
Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2021, 05:30:10 PM »
I would love to have some hints that indicate that my character knows more about what they are doing then I actually do.

Maybe making it a separate command for those that don't want it.
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The7DeadlyVenomz

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2021, 07:09:36 PM »
I like this quite a bit, Maso. Quite a bit.
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Shaydee

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2021, 10:20:40 PM »
Yes to all of this.  ;D
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Barsook

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2021, 08:08:07 AM »
Can we have this, pleeeeeeese?

Brokkr

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2021, 01:08:32 PM »
One issue is:  a piece of bone

This idea might work for an item that has a couple of alternate recipes.  How do you handle 200+ alternate recipes?

mansa

  • Posts: 10127
Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2021, 01:27:00 PM »
Suggestion 1: Agree
Suggestion 2: I'll talk about this later in the post.
Suggestion 3: I feel this would be a super heavy and clock cycle intensive call.   I'm not sure if this is necessary, and I think it will cause database lookups to delay the game.
Suggestion 4: Agree



...
2. You can make something out of that...

You have a high skill:

Code: [Select]
> craft pole

You could make...
   1) a really nice polished pole from that. [polemaking, manageable]

You think you could also make a bone-headed prodding stick from that if you had a piece of bone and a scrap of leather.

Low skill:
Code: [Select]
> craft pole

You could make...
   1) a really nice polished pole from that. [polemaking, manageable]

You think you could also make a bone-headed prodding stick from that but you're missing something.
...



I feel this would also be a super huge database call.

For example:
Code: [Select]
> craft bone

You could make...
   1) a bone knife from that. [knifemaking, easy]
   1) a sharp bone knife from that. [knifemaking, manageable]
   1) a brittle bone knife from that. [knifemaking, easy]
   1) a slender bone knife from that. [knifemaking, manageable]

You think you could also make [item1] from that if you had a piece of bone and item xyz [knifemaking]
You think you could also make [item2] from that if you had a piece of bone and item xyz [knifemaking]
You think you could also make [item3] from that if you had a piece of bone and item xyz [swordmaking]
You think you could also make [item4] from that if you had a piece of bone and item abc [knifemaking]
You think you could also make [item5] from that if you had a piece of bone and item abc [knifemaking]
You think you could also make [item6] from that if you had a piece of bone and item abc [swordmaking]
You think you could also make [item7] from that if you had a piece of bone and item abc [axemaking]
You think you could also make [item8] from that if you had a piece of bone and item hij [knifemaking]
You think you could also make [item9] from that if you had a piece of bone and item hij [swordmaking]
You think you could also make [item10] from that if you had a piece of bone and item hij [swordmaking]
You think you could also make [item11] from that if you had a piece of bone and item hij [axemaking]
You think you could also make [item12] from that if you had a piece of bone and item klmno [knifemaking]
You think you could also make [item13] from that if you had a piece of bone and item klmno [swordmaking]
You think you could also make [item14] from that if you had a piece of bone and item klmno [axemaking]
You think you could also make [item15] from that if you had a piece of bone and item klmno [lockpick making]


Which really is just a reiteration of Brokkr's point, sorry.
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Maso

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2021, 02:41:37 PM »
Fair point...what about the 'low skill' version? Where it just returns that you could make something? But doesn't say what, or what you're missing.

Additionally, it could just limit...and give you 1 or 2 options with the missing ingredients?

The system now is just....irksome. It basically encourages hoarding and requires insane systematic testing of items to try and figure stuff out, and anything past two ingredients is most likely just lost to any bar those who already know it or have managed to analyse something. It would be great to know if that random piece of X you found might be useful or if you should just sell it/bin it.
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Ulga

  • Posts: 41
Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2021, 03:57:54 PM »
Maso, your post makes a lot of sense to me, and would be a huge help to noobs. As a noob, I have a heck of a time trying to make sense of what I can make and what I cant, even if my character would know. For instance, I can make an x out of a small y, but I cant make anything out of a big y. Its pretty confusing, and doesnt make a ton of sense. Or, how do I know what precise 2 items to put together to make an x, when the ingredient is something super random?
your idea about showing the missing ingredients, or showing that you could make /something/ with an ingredient is great. I totally get the point Brokkr made about the insanely long list (I never knew you could craft so much in this game. Very exciting.), so maybe not list all of the things you could make, but a guide would be great to have.

mansa

  • Posts: 10127
Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2021, 04:01:40 PM »
Fair point...what about the 'low skill' version? Where it just returns that you could make something? But doesn't say what, or what you're missing.

Additionally, it could just limit...and give you 1 or 2 options with the missing ingredients?

The system now is just....irksome. It basically encourages hoarding and requires insane systematic testing of items to try and figure stuff out, and anything past two ingredients is most likely just lost to any bar those who already know it or have managed to analyse something. It would be great to know if that random piece of X you found might be useful or if you should just sell it/bin it.

I think allowing the 'view' command at NPC shops to give the analyze results of the item would solve some of that.  Isn't that you're suggestion #4 ???  :)

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triste

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2021, 04:21:58 PM »
Allowing people to analyze things in shops wouldn't be an improvement, it would be a detriment and would just cause shops to get chock full of replicated goods. It removes interesting roleplay around acquiring rare items and requesting to view them, etc.

I like all the suggested crafting improvements, but so far they've all made me chuckle as a coder. Even the proposed aesthetic improvements -- I'd rather not ask our game's coders to fiddle with left padding and right padding all day.

FWIW, staff do put effort into this pain point in an interesting way, so far as I have heard -- they will sometimes sell rare craftable items in shops, such that they can be bought and inspected. I think they do it this way because it drives roleplay.
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Maso

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2021, 04:22:15 PM »
Fair point...what about the 'low skill' version? Where it just returns that you could make something? But doesn't say what, or what you're missing.

Additionally, it could just limit...and give you 1 or 2 options with the missing ingredients?

The system now is just....irksome. It basically encourages hoarding and requires insane systematic testing of items to try and figure stuff out, and anything past two ingredients is most likely just lost to any bar those who already know it or have managed to analyse something. It would be great to know if that random piece of X you found might be useful or if you should just sell it/bin it.

I think allowing the 'view' command at NPC shops to give the analyze results of the item would solve some of that.  Isn't that you're suggestion #4 ???  :)

Ehh kind of. But it doesn't really tackle the huge database of mostly-lost crafts that aren't in regular circulation through shops or the odd items you can't find a craft for. If there was an automated effort to randomly distribute random stuff into shops from the depths of the item database that would be a step in the right direction. But let's say I have a few random items (ingredients) sat in a chest that I can't find a craft for...but looking at them...it seems obvious they would be good for the type of things I can craft...what are the odds of coming across that one obscure item in a shop that there's a recipe for? Pretty slim.

Even if it just returned a random max 2-3 recipes within my skillset for an item...that would be a huge improvement, it doesn't need to be the whole list.
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Maso

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2021, 04:24:13 PM »
Allowing people to analyze things in shops wouldn't be an improvement, it would be a detriment and would just cause shops to get chock full of replicated goods. It removes interesting roleplay around acquiring rare items and requesting to view them, etc.

I like all the suggested crafting improvements, but so far they've all made me chuckle as a coder. Even the proposed aesthetic improvements -- I'd rather not ask our game's coders to fiddle with left padding and right padding all day.

FWIW, staff do put effort into this pain point in an interesting way, so far as I have heard -- they will sometimes sell rare craftable items in shops, such that they can be bought and inspected. I think they do it this way because it drives roleplay.

The suggestion re. analysing in shops was that common, basic items would give a recipe. For rare, expensive or difficult items it would just tell you that you would be able to craft it. If you care to bust 7 small buying it maybe you can de-engineer it.
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triste

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2021, 04:31:41 PM »
If simple to craft items are cheap and easy to craft, just buy them. It's more coin to that other merchant starting out.

Agreed a "You can craft this" in shops is short and sweet, worth a one line post in the Quality of Life thread. The rest just kills roleplay.
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triste

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2021, 04:44:04 PM »
And sorry, just to explain my "Kills roleplay" shorthand to any new players, what I am saying is this: If you wish to be a great crafter, find and roleplay with a great crafter in game. If you want to be a great burglar find a great burglar. If you want to be a great mercenary...

This is what the game is about. If you have to struggle in isolation, roleplay it out, maybe submit a request, but above all, try to find that outcome through roleplaying since it is the point of the game.

While I like the idea of a crafting system like this because I know people cheat and share stuff about this OOCly, gamifying crafting would obliterate so much great roleplaying. I don't think we should compromise the theme of the game just because other people choose to value gameplay more than roleplay.
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Fernandezj

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2021, 04:49:34 PM »
I like anything that reveals more hidden crafts.
Several players have alluded to the fact that some items from 10+ years ago are just not in game because no one knows how to make them.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 04:51:34 PM by Fernandezj »

triste

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2021, 05:45:38 PM »
Staff have been trying to cycle those items back in game so that they can be discovered so far as I have heard. I have noticed and had fun with it but I guess not everyone is good at finding easter eggs.

Perhaps automatically / randomly cycling items in can help. In favor of seeing if things are craftable through view (but don't kill trade and interaction by going whole hog please).
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creeper386

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2021, 06:26:56 PM »
My two biggest things to help. Let view tell if an item is craftable, though I'd prefer if it told me if my character could possibly craft it. Even if it doesn't tell me how to craft it.


Second, fix analyze. I think it's currently near worthless. I think others have mentioned it, but if it's not craftable, just give me that OOC message. Then some variation of, you don't have the skill, you don't have the tools and here's how it's made. I do think clan locked crafts should just have their own separate thing too.
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Maso

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2021, 02:33:08 AM »
And sorry, just to explain my "Kills roleplay" shorthand to any new players, what I am saying is this: If you wish to be a great crafter, find and roleplay with a great crafter in game. If you want to be a great burglar find a great burglar. If you want to be a great mercenary...

This is what the game is about. If you have to struggle in isolation, roleplay it out, maybe submit a request, but above all, try to find that outcome through roleplaying since it is the point of the game.

While I like the idea of a crafting system like this because I know people cheat and share stuff about this OOCly, gamifying crafting would obliterate so much great roleplaying. I don't think we should compromise the theme of the game just because other people choose to value gameplay more than roleplay.

I'm not talking about merchants becoming great merchants. There's a difference between not being able to craft expensive, difficult and high value items and not being able to craft something that is fairly cheap and should be common but just isn't because it was master crafted with an obscure recipe.

Then there is the issue of weird craftable ingredients...e.g. the pointy shard of plastic - has 6 recipes vs the shardy shard of plastic - has no recipes, no matter what you try and craft it with you can't find a dang recipe. That feels to me like an OOC construct and an OOC frustration which, when solved, would not be ruining anyone's RP. In fact, the time saved for crafters would probably open them up for more RP. Unfortunately, the natural response to the above scenario is to make a damn mastercraft recipe for the shardy shard of plastic because it's been annoying the hell out of you, and adding yet another soon-to-be-lost mastercraft recipe to the pool, possibly almost identical to one someone else has made...because you couldn't figure it out.

Even the proposed aesthetic improvements -- I'd rather not ask our game's coders to fiddle with left padding and right padding all day.

"You will sit there and fiddle with that damn padding until it's krathdamn perfect. No, almost the same is not good enough." - wrangling coders, story of my life ::)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 02:36:30 AM by Maso »
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triste

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2021, 04:27:49 AM »
"You will sit there and fiddle with that damn padding until it's krathdamn perfect. No, almost the same is not good enough." - wrangling coders, story of my life ::)

You can't quite wrangle volunteer coders. Beggars can't be choosers.

Seeing if something might be craftable to you upon using the `view` command? A low effort quality of life improvement.

Getting a bunch of recipes for free upon view without paying a coin (or a second of time roleplaying)... unequivocally kills trade and roleplaying.

I like ergonomic code, trade, and roleplaying. Code that kills trade and roleplaying (because people want to be lazy [in a roleplay sense] lazy power gamers) is very eh. Yeah don't "wrangle" our coders into killing roleplay to satisfy people who don't want to make connections in game. There are plenty of great merchants to learn from who play off peak if that's the problem.
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Maso

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2021, 04:40:04 AM »
Again, you're not quite getting the point. Nor am I look for anything that 'kills roleplay'. The system is perfectly fine, as it is, for 'power gamers', since you can get unbelievably rich with the easily available recipes. Opening up more of the interesting crafts (read: not valuable, expensive or rare...but OOC'ly interesting) can only be a good thing.
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triste

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2021, 04:43:35 AM »
Add "You break it you buy it" code then. Kidding and not kidding.

If you want perks with zero roleplay or interaction, introduce some realistic costs.

Or just continue to go with... interaction and roleplay as the very mechanism by which you learn. I prefer the latter.
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Maso

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2021, 04:47:02 AM »
Honestly, points 1 & 2 of my original post cover the main bulk of my concerns...the viewing in shops stuff is more of a nice to have, but it makes sense.

You seem to assume that I don't roleplay or interact with others and that all my woes could be solved by exploring this avenue of the game that has been mysteriously closed off to me for 15 years.  ::)
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triste

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Re: For craft's sake!
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2021, 04:48:19 AM »
If you read my posts I have been very respectful about one of your ideas and very clear that the other hurts roleplay (which you appear to now concede). Please don't take it personally <3
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