Author Topic: Why no maps?  (Read 1965 times)

Lotion

  • Posts: 295
Why no maps?
« on: October 29, 2020, 12:21:06 PM »
Jihelu is complaining about no maps in discord and there's a bit of discussion over there but there's people here who aren't there.

The only reason I could think of is that maps are borderline literacy. Someone who makes maps is writing information down with the intent of someone else being able to look at what they have written down and understanding it. Doing this in Allanak would probably result in getting Templar'd once people realize what's going on but I don't see any real reason why something so useful would be met with similar scorn in other places.
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triste

  • Posts: 1048
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2020, 12:34:23 PM »
Map making by commoners seems to have been allowed in the past. Someone recently posted about their map making character here: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56088.msg1052003.html#msg1052003

IDK if that character developed maps in secret, but I feel as though I have heard other characters mention map making IG in the past. Whether all of this has been in line with documentation or not I do not know, just providing data on the topic.
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Jihelu

  • Posts: 2889
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2020, 02:40:58 PM »
I see no reason why I can draw a perfect portrait of a noble, paint intense sceneries of  the streets of Allanak, but this is banned https://imgur.com/fjzPfML

Also, there  is an elf that sells treasure maps.  They suck  and are shit, but they are still 'maps'. Reading or making a map isn't borderline literacy. Nothing about making a map or directions to an area requires understanding about reading or writing.

Fredd

  • Posts: 1827
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2020, 03:23:18 PM »
There are IG maps. There are IG maps in Allanak.

*poofs again*
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Jihelu

  • Posts: 2889
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2020, 03:28:01 PM »
There are IG maps. There are IG maps in Allanak.

*poofs again*

So why can't we create more IG?

triste

  • Posts: 1048
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2020, 03:55:07 PM »
Staff probably take issue with any maps containing words or symbols like arrows.

But you can depict terrain artistically and bam, you have a heckin' map.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cartography

That map on that mammoth tusk in that article is abstract AF to me if it is truly a map! But who is to say some Zalanthan couldn't carve something like that on a tusk.

If you make a map of say Allanak, and you had the Borsail estate on it, you might indicate it with a Wyvern as that is their sigil. Most illiterate map makers would opt for vague images of towns, forts and flags but be unable to clearly label some of them. I wouldn't recommend trying to make a heavily labeled map IG for this reason.
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mansa

  • Posts: 10201
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2020, 04:03:13 PM »
I'd like to clarify the question / discussion.

Using the Illustration Skill ( http://armageddon.org/help/view/Illustration )

Acceptable Use:
-ASCII art is NOT permitted for these drawings.
-ASCII art is pictures made out of text and are not to be used.
-Please do not use this for cartography.
-In line with the theme of Armageddon these are to be descriptions of the drawn illustrations using normal grammar and spelling.
-In no way should there be any written words on these descriptions even if your character has the skills to read and write.


The discussion is NOT about ASCII maps being created.

It is about characters using text words to describe what a drawn map would look like.


Example:
This map is outlined with a large square painted with brown ink.  At the top right of the square is a symbol of a sun; a circle with a few lines draw out from it, in yellow ink.  What looks like a single vertical mark with a circle around the base of the mark at the center bottom of the map's square, drawn in black ink.  There appears to be a dotted brown line from the bottom center's symbol leading up and to the right a variety of times, until it reaches the center of the paper and an orange circle.  Continuing from that orange circle, the dotted brown lines goes up and then turns sharply to the right, meeting up with the sun symbol.

About halfway through the dotted brown line from the orange circle to the yellow circle is a red x symbol.


http://armageddon.org/help/view/Map%20Zalanthas


Are maps like this allowed?
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Dar

  • Posts: 1682
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2020, 04:12:24 PM »
I imagine staff just wants to avoid the whole 'go 14e2s4w1n' to enter the cave type of maps.

mansa

  • Posts: 10201
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2020, 04:21:56 PM »
I imagine staff just wants to avoid the whole 'go 14e2s4w1n' to enter the cave type of maps.

I understand doing something like that is very poor quality and very poor taste, I think we're a mature enough playerbase to avoid / report these types of things.
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triste

  • Posts: 1048
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2020, 05:45:54 PM »
I imagine staff just wants to avoid the whole 'go 14e2s4w1n' to enter the cave type of maps.

I understand doing something like that is very poor quality and very poor taste, I think we're a mature enough playerbase to avoid / report these types of things.

To describe something as "poor taste" is indicative of how this is a gray area issue. When people get flak for a gray area issue, they tend to get double-extra-pissed because it feels unfair to be penalized in some way when the guideline is unclear.

The guidelines here do seem to be clear, but in a scary way:

Quote
-Please do not use this for cartography.

That seems to imply we just... can't make maps with the illustration skill now. Period? Wow. Yeah, we need a staff answer on this that results in an update to the helpfile with some elaboration. My map carved on ivory comment (in reference to an IRL artifact from 25,000 BC) was a little too apropos... at least we have a use for all that chalton ivory now?

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Jihelu

  • Posts: 2889
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2020, 08:59:04 PM »
I fully acknowledge the problem of "Go 14 e 2 n" and I think that shouldn't be an issue as the drawing skill already mentions 'don't fuck it up' and that could easily be a tagline.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 11:34:24 PM by Jihelu »

Classclown

  • Posts: 303
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2020, 01:46:08 AM »
How long would the description of the map be? It seems like it would take up a whole page or more, depending on the detail, and confusing to follow. I could see if it's just as a general map drawn for artistic purposes only.

 Also, only someone who has been to the place would be able to recognize the area without labels. If you've never been to Allanak, how would you know what you were looking at? And if you know the area, why would you need a map?

 Someone would have to know what area/place the map is for, at least to be able to say, here's this map of Allanak. That could only come from the maker of the map or someone who got it from the maker of the map and was told.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 01:49:48 AM by Classclown »

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2889
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2020, 09:07:43 AM »
How long would the description of the map be? It seems like it would take up a whole page or more, depending on the detail, and confusing to follow. I could see if it's just as a general map drawn for artistic purposes only.

 Also, only someone who has been to the place would be able to recognize the area without labels. If you've never been to Allanak, how would you know what you were looking at? And if you know the area, why would you need a map?

 Someone would have to know what area/place the map is for, at least to be able to say, here's this map of Allanak. That could only come from the maker of the map or someone who got it from the maker of the map and was told.

Nobody said you'd be naming places by land.
"Also, only someone who has been to the place would be able to recognize the area without labels. If you've never been to Allanak, how would you know what you were looking at? And if you know the area, why would you need a map?"

....Yes, thats how a map works. If you are in Allanak and have a map of the surrounding areas you should, as a human being, be able to slowly figure out the surrounding areas with the map. The road leading east of allanak on the map that has a pillar on it? Wow I went East of Allanak and there is a pillar just like on the map.

" Someone would have to know what area/place the map is for, at least to be able to say, here's this map of Allanak. That could only come from the maker of the map or someone who got it from the maker of the map and was told."

Or you could just use the landmarks. Yeah a map of the Western Grey is useless if you don't know where it begins, that's how maps work.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 8366
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2020, 01:04:19 PM »
I don't know about maps specifically but I will say I like the idea of giving directions via illustration:

A dotted line zigzags toward the northeast, until a crude cluster of trees. At that point, the line moves north, then around a flower outlined in black and filled in with pink, curving eastward. Near the edge of the page, where a thick black barrier has been drawn, is the image of a flying creature with a clubbed tail. A skull drawn in bloody red is set beside the creature, its hollowed eye sockets facing down.

The fun part is, you don't know where the directions start. What part of the world it's in. You could guess, but you have a pretty good shot of being wrong. So it'd only be useful to people who "need to know," according to the artist.
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Fredd

  • Posts: 1827
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2020, 09:06:28 PM »
Having seen many maps IG, i think the main problem, staff side, is people trying to depict distance. You can go landmark to landmark fine, no problem. But if you try to make some sort of note of the distance, that falls into Cavilish writing. I have commissioned more than a handful of maps as leaders in my time playing. And have read more than a handful of maps IG. Some of which may, and hopefully, still exist (especially in the Byn). Try to keep it in mind, that it should be a drawing, more then a "map" like you and I know. And talk to staff. Most of the current staff seem pretty cool with working with you. Send in reports, say you want to do cartography.

edit: also noting direction falls into cavilish. Landmark to landmark is fine. the more esoteric the landmark, the better.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 09:09:20 PM by Fredd »
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Kryos

  • Posts: 928
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2020, 09:35:33 PM »
If anyone wants to do it in game:  do it!  Work with staff, see what's possible.

Out of game, there are players who really embrace the discovery aspect of games.  Finding where things are, how they work, why they are there, what you can do with them.  This is part of the fun that they get from the experience.  Just having a pile of maps ready for use would nix some of that for them.  Maps isn't all of it, things like the brew/poison system, magick, etc all hold some of that content and experience.

Others don't like it at all, but that's part of what the Byn is for.  Join up when you're new and get to see the world that way, or at least some of it.

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2889
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2020, 04:42:31 AM »
Having seen many maps IG, i think the main problem, staff side, is people trying to depict distance. You can go landmark to landmark fine, no problem. But if you try to make some sort of note of the distance, that falls into Cavilish writing. I have commissioned more than a handful of maps as leaders in my time playing. And have read more than a handful of maps IG. Some of which may, and hopefully, still exist (especially in the Byn). Try to keep it in mind, that it should be a drawing, more then a "map" like you and I know. And talk to staff. Most of the current staff seem pretty cool with working with you. Send in reports, say you want to do cartography.

edit: also noting direction falls into cavilish. Landmark to landmark is fine. the more esoteric the landmark, the better.

I'll look into it.

Dar

  • Posts: 1682
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2020, 01:48:20 PM »
From what I understand, nothing stops people from writing maps. But maps must be described as objects. Not an ASCI type maps.

I find that reasonable. I know for example if I have a dwarf focus that related to something in mantis valley for example, I'll get someone to draw a map for me.  Just so my OOC knowledge of the place is more reasonable and it involves other people into my focus.

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2889
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2020, 08:53:21 AM »
From what I understand, nothing stops people from writing maps. But maps must be described as objects. Not an ASCI type maps.

I find that reasonable. I know for example if I have a dwarf focus that related to something in mantis valley for example, I'll get someone to draw a map for me.  Just so my OOC knowledge of the place is more reasonable and it involves other people into my focus.

The docs specifically call out you losing your draw ability if you create any sort of map.
Well not exactly but it says
' -Please do not use this for cartography.'

Halcyon

  • Posts: 343
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2020, 01:27:52 PM »
I really hate to be that guy, but why not find out IC?   Explorer players like rp too.

In a setting where information can lethal to acquire, why shouldnt information have a cost like any other form of profit or security?

I take this position mostly because its not hard to make a map ooc, and it is difficult sometimes not to share map info across your own characters.   This topic isnt debating making maps.  It is debating sharing maps.

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Dar

  • Posts: 1682
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2020, 01:45:51 AM »
I really hate to be that guy, but why not find out IC?   Explorer players like rp too.

In a setting where information can lethal to acquire, why shouldnt information have a cost like any other form of profit or security?

I take this position mostly because its not hard to make a map ooc, and it is difficult sometimes not to share map info across your own characters.   This topic isnt debating making maps.  It is debating sharing maps.

I mean, judging from the two posts above, it's not about sharing maps at all.  If you cant even use illustrations to create a described map for example. A map can be a prop for delving into an area that you've never been to, but know the area by heart ooc.

Incognito

  • Posts: 922
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2020, 05:19:44 AM »
OOCLY yes, we are all aware of the taboo of just putting down directions and numbers on a piece of paper.

That said, ICLY I'd find it totally legit for say a group of elves planning a raid on gith, by drawing the Gem, various mesas in the surrounding area and the road - in the sand on the ground, using a stick.

There should be no reason to not be able to put the same information on a scroll.

In fact, there's an NPC shopkeeper in Nak who sells maps to the the buried city of Mal Krian - so it's not like maps can't be made, or shared, ICLY.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 05:21:27 AM by Incognito »
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The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9374
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2020, 07:06:02 AM »
This map is outlined with a large square painted with brown ink.  At the top right of the square is a symbol of a sun; a circle with a few lines draw out from it, in yellow ink.  What looks like a single vertical mark with a circle around the base of the mark at the center bottom of the map's square, drawn in black ink.  There appears to be a dotted brown line from the bottom center's symbol leading up and to the right a variety of times, until it reaches the center of the paper and an orange circle.  Continuing from that orange circle, the dotted brown lines goes up and then turns sharply to the right, meeting up with the sun symbol.

About halfway through the dotted brown line from the orange circle to the yellow circle is a red x symbol.


I'm relatively certain this is completely acceptable use of the drawing command.
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Night Queen

  • Posts: 21
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2020, 07:33:36 AM »
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Illustration
Quote
Acceptable Use:
-ASCII art is NOT permitted for these drawings.
-ASCII art is pictures made out of text and are not to be used.
-Please do not use this for cartography.

In the help file it says ASCII art is not permitted for drawings, but then in a separate rule it says please do not use it for cartography (maps), that would mean any type of map is not allowed, not just ASCII.

I think it's a good thing, it'd quickly turn to cheese if strong hunters were able to do the exploring for the weaker characters, and powerful characters were simply around to pass around detailed maps of the unknown, the mystique of the world would quickly get lost when it's all nailed down with successively increasing detail on paper...

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 9374
Re: Why no maps?
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2020, 07:44:31 AM »
I'll agree about the mystery portion, to some extent, but you have to remember that IRL, nobody knew what was where when people drew dragons and stuff on their maps. Just because there's a drawing of something doesn't mean that you understand the immensity of what that drawing really means. A gith head on a map just stands for a gith. There's no real way to know, for future readers of your map, that the gith head stands for a fortress of god-king gith.

I've always thought that that blurb meant that ASCII art was not permitted for Maps, basically. Also, because cartography is pretty detailed, generally speaking, I've never assumed that a description of a few mountains and a deep hole and a winding road being drawn on a piece of paper, without words to read, could be construed as such.

I sure would like a staffer to pop on in here and lay down the lawz! Staff, do that! Lawz!
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