The Allanak Problem

[triste]

Pish posh, gemmed aren't slaves.

Slaves get free room and board.

You are right, the gemmed are worse than slaves. They aren't even provided for.

They are provided for, in theory, if they join House Oash or House Jal, or serve a Templar directly.

It is definitely possible to languish as a gemmed. Like Delirium said, not all gemmed are necessarily useful, and you will languish if you are not. I played a gemmed who so languished, unchosen by a House or a Templar. She was a low born breed with a foul personality. One day in a fit of jealous, Krathi rage she killed a gemmed who was a Templar's aide. This aide that she killed did a lot of work, and the Templar he assisted just sort of faded away soon after that. It felt like I indirectly PKed the Templar in a sense. I am not PK happy, and while I play concepts capable, I rarely do it. Killing this gemmed aide was one of only two PKs I've had in about eighty characters I've played.

This is not the plot I am proudest of, but one that I believe naturally arose from the circumstances at hand. If you feel like a slave without room and board, stop acting so listless and do something.

[Delirium]

if they were caught INSIDE the city or one of the farming villages they were usually given the option to get a gem to live or work or trade inside allanak or pay a fine and be kicked out. With a warning that next time would be gem or die. Or possibly a bigger fine...depended on the templar of course.

THIS IS NOT THE CASE IN PLAY any more. Now templars actively hunt mages outside the city if possible to gem them and the only option is gem or die, inside or outside the city.

I have never in my 20 years playing this game ever known a magicker to be revealed in Allanak (or its villages) and not either killed, hunted down, or gemmed. I say this having played a magicker who got caught and wasn't even given the option of wearing a gem (but they were right to kill me, because I was working for a Big Bad).

Actively hunting them outside the city, that depends on the situation. Going too hard after rogues who were otherwise lying low, blending in, and not making any moves against Allanak, yeah, that would be questionable, but the role of a rogue is supposed to be one of being hunted and hated, with a few exceptions that are probably too IC to get into but are, again, situational, and depend on who you have backing you and how blatant you are.

If you're able to make yourself more useful left alive while being troublesome to kill, then who knows?

Pish posh, gemmed aren't slaves.

Slaves get free room and board.

You're right. Slaves do get room and board. You know who else doesn't? The rest of Allanak's common citizens. In fact, gemmed at least get a Temple to stay at, even if it's so that they don't bother others with their mere existence, and not due to charity's sake. It's almost like, in a horrible world like Zalanthas, having a guaranteed roof over your head is a thing worth wanting. If I recall correctly, there was a plot during one famine where common people sold themselves or their children into slavery for a chance at survival. That was brutal, but seemed extremely thematic.

[HavokBlue]

I've played ungemmed mages in Allanak that lived their whole PC lives without a gem - I just didn't flaunt the magick.

[X-D]

I have never in my 20 years playing this game ever known a magicker to be revealed in Allanak (or its villages) and not either killed, hunted down, or gemmed.

I have, and less then 20 years ago, although not by much. And I have a few more years then you.

By 18 years ago it was becoming far less common and by 15-16 years ago...Only Submit or die. You submit to this collar you can never remove, you work for us whenever we tell you to, there is no escape anywhere in the world...and have to live in a segregated section of the city....Or...Die, The very definition of enslavement. And the best kind (or lowest, depending on which side of the gem you are on) because you do not have to care for them at all.

I am not quite sure why the "allowed to live in the great city of allanak EVEN though you are  a mage" Along with the idea that this is a good thing, changed to "allowed to live".

And let me be clear. I do not so much have an issue with the gem system itself. I have an issue with the way it has been played out, and that is the reason many players/PCs consider it enslavement.

If it was common practice for a templar to ignore a mage on the salt flats not bothering anybody...(Laughable today) And if they caught a mage that was not actively casting in the street or walking around with some noticable spell on...and it was Take gem, Or we strip you, leave you a knife and waterskin and kick you out the gates...Or pay a fine and kicked out. And if you come back again it better be to ask for the gem or you die. AND to not care about harmless mages outside the city.

I would have no issues at all.

But that is not the case.

[Tuannon]

A gemmed working for Jal or particularly Oash has another layer of complexity to protect them from the unwanted attentions of the Templarate.

However, any citizen of Allanak is open to being conscripted on a short, long or permanent basis by the templarate and the only defense is utility.

[Fenneko]

X-D is 100% correct about the active hunting and enslavement of gemmed. The semantics at play here are amusing to see but unfortunately the threat of death or wearing a permanent marking and collar to signify the literal ownership of a person's free will by another defines slavery. Gemmed are a form of slave. Not a complete slave but when it matters most a gemmed is ordered to their death. A soldier who had no choice to join an army and had no choice to go to war and die in it is a slave by any definition.

According to the culture of some in Zalanthas a gemmed is not a slave but that is obviously a cultural cover for the rationalization of their slavery.

Also incorrect to assert that an Oashi gemmed won't be given the same treatment. the PC i saw these situations with observed a gemmed Oashi being sent on a scouting mission in X location. That PC returned barely alive, missing an arm which was torn off by XXX within that location. Without having any choice in the matter, the same Oashi gemmed PC was later sent again to scout the same area again. Never returned. This was also an Oashi Drovian. Obviously a very valuable commodity. Obviously being sent without any say into their death. Also bound by a "life oath" which violating meant their death. Many layers of doublespeak and false labels that are IC constructs but the OOC, objective truth is that this person was a slave, even if Oashi. So a lot of the assertions being made that they aren't slaves just don't feel accurate, at all.

The RP we do doesn't always reflect it. Most people simply don't care at all about the plight of witches and therefore there is no public recognition of them as slaves. Those who know the most about it would beg to differ.

Some Templars are honest and refer to the gemmed as a kind of slave.

These are true things. Don't let the cultural semantics and doublespeak of Zalanthas upset the objective reality. Don't become so controlling of player RP that we do GDB shaming of RP styles. Since respected players will sometimes refer to gemmed as slaves then some other players are 100% allowed to RP as they like. Hestia is correct in that point that maybe it tends to be tribals or whatnot who tend to see it as slavery.

However if looking at it from a literal perspective a slave could obviously use money in some cultures but still be ordered to their death. Therefore a slave is a slave.

[Fenneko]

However, any citizen of Allanak is open to being conscripted on a short, long or permanent basis by the templarate and the only defense is utility.

A bit of an inflated statement. As a long term player I have several examples of gemmed being sent to die on suicidal missions, either alone or in groups. Have never seen a random citizen treated so even once even if such conscription is possible. From the sheer numbers of dead gemmed I know of versus the complete absence of non gemmed examples I would say this statement is disingenuous. Exception: soldiers or recruits who volunteered to be such will be sent to their deaths, yes. But no efforts to actively coerce or hunt or force anyone to become a soldier in Nak,and no Draft for example any time in Nak's history(recent history, i.e. last 100 or so IC years). This is more in line with a definition of a free citizen. Any conscription of a mundane commoner I've seen was clearly a reaction to something i.e. a punishment or a way to hurt another's position n the city, but that doesn't make commoners just another form of slave also.

Finally, one last point. I don't mind all of these factors. I am perfectly ready to RP the role of a gemmed when I play characters that are gemmed. But I have also more than once been in a role where the gem wasn't a choice and the outcome therefore is a form of slavery. I still am happy as a player to RP it. The concerns I have about RP in Allanak are more about how unstimulating and stifling the RP environment is. The stifling nature of the RP is not necessarily due to the fact that gemmed are a form of slave in Zalanthas. In fact, if there actually was more of a public recognition of gemmed as being the slaves they are, then my argument is that the gemmed would have more, not less RP opportunities. A commoner may, for example, feel more safe to interact with a gemmed if they were not seen as "free willed witches" and instead were seen as the collared slaves they are. Just as a commoner probably has no fear at all about ordering a slave around, actually recognizing Gemmed for what they are (under complete control of the Templarate) may enhance the interactivity and improve RP. Food for thought. Also, if it were up to me, I'd just let the players and player-driven culture decide the answer to this debate. It's pretty clear which side I'd choose.

[triste]

Sorry to be that person, but we're dropping the S word a lot. I'm 4.8% black and IDK if it's slave or pirate genetics, but I am also part Irish and my great great great grandfather was an indentured servant (slave), so let me just say "a thing" about slavery.

When you are a slave you are...
- generally restricted to your owner's property unless you have permission to leave it
- have no choice in what job you do
- all of your earnings go to your owner

When you are a gemmed you can...
- Leave Allanak whenever you want.
- Pick which House/Templar you serve, or work for yourself.
- Keep your earnings.

I don't know how Gemmed were handled in the recent war, but at worst that sounds like conscription, not slavery.

If we are going to liberally throw around the term slave, I feel more disrespected, controlled, stolen from, and "like a slave" IRL in American capitalist society than I ever felt playing a gemmed. Shit, besides the one gemmed I mentioned, all of my gemmed get heaps more respect than I do, too.

[triste]

Heck, maybe fixing the Allanak problem is opening slave roles again, so that people who can take the harshness can flex on people who can now politely stop whining, or at least stop liberally misusing words. Respect to the droves of slaves on earth today.

[Hestia]

Sorry to be that person, but we're dropping the S word a lot. I'm 4.8% black and IDK if it's slave or pirate genetics, but I am also part Irish and my great great great grandfather was an indentured servant (slave), so let me just say "a thing" about slavery.

When you are a slave you are...
- generally restricted to your owner's property unless you have permission to leave it
- have no choice in what job you do
- all of your earnings go to your owner

When you are a gemmed you can...
- Leave Allanak whenever you want.
- Pick which House/Templar you serve, or work for yourself.
- Keep your earnings.

I don't know how Gemmed were handled in the recent war, but at worst that sounds like conscription, not slavery.

If we are going to liberally throw around the term slave, I feel more disrespected, controlled, stolen from, and "like a slave" IRL in American capitalist society than I ever felt playing a gemmed. Shit, besides the one gemmed I mentioned, all of my gemmed get heaps more respect than I do, too.

Just to nitpick and clarify to prevent that "yeah but" posts that might follow:

You can attempt to work for whichever houses are willing to hire the gemmed.  Not all of them do (new players might not necessarily know this so it's important).

Other than that, I agree 100% with Triste, as I've already said:

The gemmed are NOT slaves. They're not like slaves, they're not almost slaves, they're not practically slaves.

[Fenneko]

Except that this game is a fantasy role playing game. Anyone who has issues roleplaying a world of open cruelty, racism and murder with the word slave can choose a less dark setting to play in if it is that upsetting to them.

Slavery was a frequently roleplayed about topic throughout this setting from its inception as a spinoff of D&D Dark Sun. Dealing with slavery through RP, rather than censoring its place in the game, would be more conducive to more interaction and intrigue than it being a sort of unmentioned topic. If I choose to RP the reality in my role that should be just as allowed because if you don't like it you could now thankfully just choose not to role-play around it anyway. (Until it comes to you and forces itself on you, if you are magical, which happens and happened.)

[Tranquil]

Sorry to be that person, but we're dropping the S word a lot. I'm 4.8% black and IDK if it's slave or pirate genetics, but I am also part Irish and my great great great grandfather was an indentured servant (slave), so let me just say "a thing" about slavery.

........... what?

There are more slaves then free people in Allanak. Being threatened to be enslaved is completely in-theme. I think it's best you don't play this game if you find the term or idea somehow offensive, for your own sake. Saying that discussion involving a very major concept in ArmageddonMUD shouldn't be talked about or 'liberally thrown about' is pretty self-centered.

Though, I do agree with your listings -- gemmed aren't slaves, but they are bound to the city's templars and nobles. And if you don't accept their call to arms, you will get killed or worse.

[HavokBlue]

Folks should chill before they get the thread locked.

Gemmed mages are not slaves and distinctly possess considerably more rights than slaves. Gemmed mages are oppressed and marginalized and forced to do things against their will by the nation-state with a monopoly on cataclysm-level violence but they are not property nor are they bought and sold as such.

Players including Templars and Nobles who play counter to the documentation on this are not an example to follow and regardless of how persistent people are in willfully disregarding documentation around magickers in Allanak, it remains the case that they're citizens.

[triste]

Agreed on chilling. And I was never offended despite the trite accusation that I was offended. Generally I am interested in one thing. Facts. Semantics that, whether you like it or not, are important. Staff agreed with me and the semantics here are settled. Now, let's move past semantics.

The one thing Tranquil, Fenneko, Delirium, me, perhaps our moms, all agree on is that this game is harsh as it should be. So is the argument here that playing a gemmed is "so harsh it is unfun and unplayable?" Well I don't agree there. Objectively playing a gemmed is easier than playing a rogue witch in a lot of ways. What is the problem you all are trying to solve, and what solution do you want? Do you want to make things even more of a cake walk than it is? Do you not like that the government in Allanak is rather authoritarian? I am not sure what people want to change here, I just hear people describing with various degrees of dismay what it's like to RP a gemmed.

[Fenneko]

One last retort, because it is simply a rewording of an earlier point.

If a character is told, by multiple other players, of multiple stations and levels of power, that they are property, in an IC context. Then they are property, to the IC mind of that character.

Yes, there is another sect of players that seem to want to enact a reality that someone with a gem isn't a slave at all, and is free willed and money holding and unbound and, etc, etc, but the impressions left on multiple roles I've seen and played as over my career here from above situations may be lasting, and if I want them to be lasting, I have the right to roleplay that as reacting to the game environment in character. (Me reacting to the environment with a mindset strongly centered in my character persistently, even if it was to my own detriment, has been one reason staff in the past said I got some karma in the past).

The debate here has been interesting, but as someone who has played here through multiple generations of staff and active, leading players (whose opinions I also respect equally -- the staff and playerbase are the same group of people, just changing roles over time, let's be honest about that also), and I have and always will kind of stick to my own opinions about the topics I've been active in here,  even as I've seen the majority, vocal opinion on this issue change over time.

The most exciting and vibrant times as an Allanaki I remember RPing were in those eras when characters in power were more honest with the brutality that is Allanak. This is one form in which that brutality took place. I have tried to give kudos to, say, Templars who executed my characters if I felt they were adding to the environment. The objective aftermath of what their actions did, which accurately portrayed the status as a form of slave of the gemmed, was that the activity and intrigue and action and interaction all greatly enhanced throughout the city when it occurred. I'll continue to remember those feelings and for my part, for what I contribute to this game as a player, I will continue to RP the setting, to the best of my ability, and to the theme that I believe it tries to have with the heavy restrictions and risks it imposes in a permanent death setting. That's why I'm still here.

The time periods in Allanak when things were actually objectively roughest for the gemmed, say from the presence of multiple Templars actively oppressing them and treating them as the kind of slaves that they are, were the exact time periods when I felt being a gemmed was most rewarding, as it kept me extremely interested in each turn of my character's story.

adding: a more similar real world comparison for the gemmed state is not slavery, but more like the immediate pre-holocaust period for the Jews in nazi germany. They were forced to wear insignia to say who they are, forced to live in a certain part of town only, and in one misstep were killed. They had financial "freedom" but had multiple barriers to actual accomplishment, and they were afraid at all times of consequences of failure. The star was as good as a collar. They felt enslaved to the state, and in the end, massive numbers of them were put to their ultimate fate for no other reason than who they were born as.

Now, obviously I am not trying to get sympathy. I am just drawing obvious comparisons to the identical equivalent of all of the above to gemmed. It isn't slavery, but in the emotional state of the victim, such a word kind of applies too.

[HavokBlue]

If a character is told by multiple other players regardless of station or level of power that they are property in an IC context it remains the case that they are not in fact property and if you witness other players attempting to circumvent documentation and rules around enslavement of PCs you should let staff know.

[triste]

_{^{(I think the only time any of my characters got called property it was by her girlfriend and it was very consenting and lovely at the time, before shit hit the fan. They were both half elves, half elves can be weird.)}}

I'll duck out of this debate but I want to say [1] I respect all of your opinions [2] not all roles are for everyone [3] I loved the last gemmed I played so if you change anything about the role plz warn me before changing it.

[X-D]

Keep in mind, I already said gemmed has a place and I have played many and enjoyed most.

That being said. Almost everybody, From Hestia on down are wrong about slavery and at BEST are cherry picking the things they think it takes to define a slave or slavery. And even more amusing when Triste actually mentions "indentured servant" Then proceeds to name the things it takes to be a slave which directly contradict reality. They (indentured servants) could move about freely, They could own property, They did have a choice on jobs mostly because they entered into the contract, and basically only the products of labor went to the owner of the indenture. If you only define slave by the definition you all learned (mostly wrong BTW) About american history and black slavery then you are only defining maybe 5% of historical slavery.

Really guys, do some research on the history of slavery in the world.

Key points though.
Did you enter into the contract willingly?
Can you end the contract at any time aside from death.

If you can say no to those two things...it IS SLAVERY.

Hell, mundane AND RL historical slaves can at least escape. Not a gemmed.

A gemmed mage is in a prison/contract whatever, that often they were forced into and can never escape from. Not really an issue cept that BOTH long term imprisonment and Slavery for PCs is not allowed. (aside from muls but even that is rare) Hell, I got in trouble as a Red fang for inking a WILLING PC as a slave, who have MORE rights and privileges then any gemmed. And why, Slavery is against the rules. Yet here we are with a caste that is far more restricted and it is inside the rules.

Even the dictionary definition contradicts you.

slave
slāv
noun

   1:One who is owned as the property of someone else, especially in involuntary servitude (check) .
   2:One who is subservient to or controlled by another.(check)
   3:One who is subject to or controlled by a specified influence.(and Check)

Or, in much shorter form, You can call that turd a rose but it still smells like crap.

[Saiseiki]

Wow.  I just realized I've finally been playing long enough to say "I can't rebut/intelligently argue these points without going into current IC dynamics."  Honestly kind of weird being on this end of that divide.

Huh.  What can I comment on, that's both helpful and hasn't been said already?  Not much.  I guess "your mileage will (not may) vary".  At whatever time I'm able to circle back 'round to this I might.

To get away from the precise topic a little bit:  if multiple characters in authority over multiple years IRL all arrive at a consensus on how thus-and-such is to be played, and if the staff either tacitly support or at least do not directly countermand that consensus, I would argue this constitutes a lasting shift in either IC or OOC culture, or both.  The proof is really in the pudding when you get to see what happens after most or all of those characters are dead/retired:  does the IC consensus that was arrived at stick?  Do the remnants of the "old guard" and the new wave continue to abide by what was established before, or does something new come about?  From a sociological perspective, this can be fascinating.  From the perspective of someone putting their creative blood into the game (both player- and staff-side, I would imagine), and sinking an obscene amount of time into a "hobby", the answers can be wonderful or horrid or anywhere in-between.

[triste]

if multiple characters in authority over multiple years IRL all arrive at a consensus on how thus-and-such is to be played, and if the staff either tacitly support or at least do not directly countermand that consensus, I would argue this constitutes a lasting shift in either IC or OOC culture, or both.

(Emphasis own)

Please, please can someone just address what "shift" we want here. I am an action oriented person and I can't stomach endless complaining without anything actionable, it is literally pointless.

I will concede that gemmed are "slave like" as much as people with H-1B visas are slaves (they decided to enter a country/citystate where they are only allowed to stay if they are employed for their skills). These "slaves" or H-1B visa holders have a crappy life. Agreed! So what is your solution already??? Free the slaves and destroy old themes in our harsh game? Give the visa holders full citizenship? Tear our gaming community apart with a controversial debate?

Until someone clearly articulates a problem, or even better a solution, seems like "tear apart the community" is the agenda.

Sorry I know I said I was done posting but five posts back or so I asked for a clear formulation of the problem or change we want and no one has delivered.

We can also drop this debate and address it in game, novel idea!

[Krath]

Stuff

Triste, this is a general DISCUSSION board. The point of it is to discuss things openly. While you may be action oriented, others are not, and it is important to be respectful of that and not try to shut down conversations because of the way you like things being done.

As to your question about a solution, before we can get to the solution space of any problem we need to know where we current are. That question can only be answered by staff and it isn't a simple yes or no gemmed are slaves answer. There are many levels that need to be answered depending on the high level answer of Yes or No they are not slaves.

My thought is they are slaves...Templar (slavemaster) tells a gemmed (slave) do X. Gemmed, being free says no. Templar slaps gemmed resulting in HP and Stun damage...Aka slavemaster whips slave until slave says yes.

Edited to add: Not all templars/slavemasters act in this way, but they have the power to, which in itself is counter to staff saying there are not allowed to be PC slaves in the game.

[Veselka]

I'm confused.

Gemmed can't take off their Gem.

Templar's have ultimate power and authority over Gemmed.

How are they not slaves? They can't just flee if they don't like the social contract they didnt sign up for. They can serve or die.

This seems like another peeking through the fingers situation ALA Religion in Zalanthas. People can anecdotally say all day "Gemmed are not slaves because X Y Z" but they absolutely are treated AS slaves are treated. They have no implicit freedom beyond what is granted to them by Templars. The Actual Plat of Gemmed is as close as you can get to playing a slave role without playing a slave role. Why argue that they aren't? Is it mainly because a PC once enslaved is supposed to be stored? Is it purely semantics?

I have never seen Gemmed treated as anything more than property on loan from the Templarate.

[triste]

Okie doke. Let's have maybe five more posts of people shouting down other players and contradicting staff, saying "being gemmed is the same as being a slave," if I don't see anything resembling a "solution" to this "problem" I am going to assume what you're all suggesting is something rediculous like "cancel the whole game because it has themes that scare me."

Discussion is one thing, but what's going on here is... IDK.

[X-D]

I would also like to point out that We are talking of definition NOT semantics. Most of you that use that second word do not seem to know what it means anyway.

I did the hard work for you all.

Definition of semantics

1 : the study of meanings:
a : the historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words or forms viewed as factors in linguistic development
b(1) : semiotics
(2) : a branch of semiotics dealing with the relations between signs and what they refer to and including theories of denotation, extension, naming, and truth

The study of word meanings, There is no argument  of the meaning of the "word" slave. Only what a "slave" is.

So, let us move on to Define.

Essential Meaning of define
1 : to explain the meaning of (a word, phrase, etc.) How would you define (the word) "grotesque"? a term that is difficult to define
2 : to show or describe (someone or something) clearly and completely The government study seeks to define urban poverty. Her book aims to define acceptable social behavior. See More Examples
3 : to show the shape, outline, or edge of (something) very clearly That fence defines the far edge of the property.

Alright so...how is "slave" defined?

slave
slāv
noun

   1:One who is owned as the property of someone else, especially in involuntary servitude (check) .
   2:One who is subservient to or controlled by another.(check)
   3:One who is subject to or controlled by a specified influence.(and Check)

I it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it is a duck If something has all the characteristics of a thing, it is probably that thing, regardless of what it is called or presented as.

And for the action people:

Easy fix, Yes, they are slaves and yes, certain types of slavery to PC is allowed. Simple rule change.

Harder fix, Change the function of the gem and how templars treat ungemmed specially and gemmed to a lesser extent.

As to contradicting staff, when they are trying to argue that this thing with fins and scales in the water is an elephant, while I can see it plainly is a fish then well.....

[Tuannon]

Templar's have ultimate power and authority over Gemmed.

Anyone who doesn't have a signet ring made of metal, really. At a supremely dumbed down level anyway.

As much as I'd like another round of nonsense, I'm done with it though.