Make Sorcerers Great Again (And Elementalists)

[Brokkr]

I should probably further clarify that I don't think they failed. I just don't think that their intention was as you seem to see it. Of course, you're a producer and you likely have the power to completely change the direction and design of the game, but I think it is wise to at least consider the original design of the gameworld when doing so. It has been a pretty successful recipe for a long time.

There were obviously tiers of power in the original documentation.  If you attribute that solely to how hard they tried to learn stuff, and I attribute it to that + inherent potential, that is simply a difference of opinion, not something wrong/right.  The idea could be rooted in RL (I will never be as good with theoretical physics as Hawking, I simply lack the potential), D&D (you needed Intelligence to a certain level in order to cast circle levels of spells) or even Arm (stats are considered at their maximum potential and differ, different classes have different maximums in skill levels or even main class sorcerer vs subclass sorcerer vs people who special app'd to have one or two sorcerer spells + gather).

[Dresan]

The more I hear about people wanting more coded power for sorcerers the more I think sorcerers shouldn't be special apps but rather sponsored roles.

With staff reviewing the players goals and plots they intend to bring to the game before providing support in the same way they do templars.

[triste]

The more I hear about people wanting more coded power for sorcerers the more I think sorcerers shouldn't be special apps but rather sponsored roles.

With staff reviewing the players goals and plots they intend to bring to the game before providing support in the same way they do templars.

This sounds completely reasonable to me given the impact they can have. Saying this as someone who has loved every sorcerer I have met IG.

[Heade]

I should probably further clarify that I don't think they failed. I just don't think that their intention was as you seem to see it. Of course, you're a producer and you likely have the power to completely change the direction and design of the game, but I think it is wise to at least consider the original design of the gameworld when doing so. It has been a pretty successful recipe for a long time.

There were obviously tiers of power in the original documentation.  If you attribute that solely to how hard they tried to learn stuff, and I attribute it to that + inherent potential, that is simply a difference of opinion, not something wrong/right.  The idea could be rooted in RL (I will never be as good with theoretical physics as Hawking, I simply lack the potential), D&D (you needed Intelligence to a certain level in order to cast circle levels of spells) or even Arm (stats are considered at their maximum potential and differ, different classes have different maximums in skill levels or even main class sorcerer vs subclass sorcerer vs people who special app'd to have one or two sorcerer spells + gather).

Yes, I understand the idea of potential, but in the cases that you've cited, we had the coded game equivalent to the limiting factor in those cases: Intelligence.

Since the Wisdom stat represents the RL equivalent of intelligence, and in the cases that you've cited, that is the limiting factor, those prior tiers of power, in my opinion, were assumed to have a correlation with the limiting elements of intelligence and ambition. With lower intelligence, in arm, it takes longer to learn things. A lack of ambition can further limit those things. But when a character possesses both the intelligence and ambition to learn more, it seems strange and jarring to artificially limit them in the way that staff have currently chosen to do so. It feels gamey. If absolutely incredible intelligence isn't smart enough to learn a second or third path of sorcery, I find that a bit silly.

I understand that this sentiment isn't universal these days, but I'm here for RP first. Since Armageddon first became an RPI, I don't believe that it has ever been the job of the RP to mold itself around the code. Instead, I think it is the job of the code to facilitate the RP according to the documentation of the gameworld. In keeping with that line of thinking, I think that more options have almost universally been better for the RP environment than less options regardless of balance, feelings, or political correctness. I feel like this idea that code(and rules) are primarily there to facilitate RP, which is an idea fostered and enforced by past staff, has been losing traction under more modern staff.

I don't mean any of this in a disrespectful way. Staff of old also didn't seem to interact with the playerbase nearly as much, or be as open with staff positions as our current staff does. There has definitely been a give and take in that regard, so I'm not trying to be specifically critical of staffers. But you can absolutely adore someone, and still disagree with some of their ideas. That is, in essence, the situation here.

I think that the current staff is great, but I disagree with what appears to be their collective opinion on some things, such as this.

[Lizzie]

The more I hear about people wanting more coded power for sorcerers the more I think sorcerers shouldn't be special apps but rather sponsored roles.

With staff reviewing the players goals and plots they intend to bring to the game before providing support in the same way they do templars.

I'd be fine with that, if sorcerers were returned to full-guild. I'd also be fine with all full-guild elementalists be special app only, if they were returned.

I'd just be giddy and enthusiastic as hell if they were returned. I don't think the fantasy of the return of full-guild mages of any kind is reachable but more of a "if wishes were fishes" kind of thing.

[Dresan]

I'd also be fine with all full-guild elementalists be special app only, if they were returned.

I would be okay with special apps for full rukkians, Vivaduans, karthis and whirans. With the condition that they are gemmers because the game doesn't need anymore isolated roles and they have to pick a regular sub-guild.

[Saellyn]

I should probably further clarify that I don't think they failed. I just don't think that their intention was as you seem to see it. Of course, you're a producer and you likely have the power to completely change the direction and design of the game, but I think it is wise to at least consider the original design of the gameworld when doing so. It has been a pretty successful recipe for a long time.

There were obviously tiers of power in the original documentation.  If you attribute that solely to how hard they tried to learn stuff, and I attribute it to that + inherent potential, that is simply a difference of opinion, not something wrong/right.  The idea could be rooted in RL (I will never be as good with theoretical physics as Hawking, I simply lack the potential), D&D (you needed Intelligence to a certain level in order to cast circle levels of spells) or even Arm (stats are considered at their maximum potential and differ, different classes have different maximums in skill levels or even main class sorcerer vs subclass sorcerer vs people who special app'd to have one or two sorcerer spells + gather).

Is this an actual thing? Being able to special app just a couple Sorcerer spells + gather? How would that work? Would staff work with the player to determine what spells they get, or do they pick a path the spells come from, or does staff randomly assign two spells or x spells?

[mansa]

I should probably further clarify that I don't think they failed. I just don't think that their intention was as you seem to see it. Of course, you're a producer and you likely have the power to completely change the direction and design of the game, but I think it is wise to at least consider the original design of the gameworld when doing so. It has been a pretty successful recipe for a long time.

There were obviously tiers of power in the original documentation.  If you attribute that solely to how hard they tried to learn stuff, and I attribute it to that + inherent potential, that is simply a difference of opinion, not something wrong/right.  The idea could be rooted in RL (I will never be as good with theoretical physics as Hawking, I simply lack the potential), D&D (you needed Intelligence to a certain level in order to cast circle levels of spells) or even Arm (stats are considered at their maximum potential and differ, different classes have different maximums in skill levels or even main class sorcerer vs subclass sorcerer vs people who special app'd to have one or two sorcerer spells + gather).

Is this an actual thing? Being able to special app just a couple Sorcerer spells + gather? How would that work? Would staff work with the player to determine what spells they get, or do they pick a path the spells come from, or does staff randomly assign two spells or x spells?

Special applications are for anything that isn't normal.

i.e.
"Hey Staff, for my next character, I'd like them to be taught two spells by their father who was a sorcerer, who also taught them how to gather from the land.  I'd like to get fireball and fly.  But no other spells.  kthx'

[gotdamnmiracle]

I'm confused what a long term goal for a sorcerer could be with the current glass ceilings in place. Like if you make a dwarf sorcerer should it be frowned upon to have their focus be to learn every spell? That simply seems like a natural progression to me.

And elementalists? Same question. Should a dwarf focus shy away from stuff like becoming an elemental, or visiting the plane of Drov, or becoming the most powerful Krathi? It appears to me these high magick plots are frowned upon in the most current game. Should they even be something worth pursuing if they will get likely no staff support, despite it being feasible within the world of play?

[BadSkeelz]

It's important to remember that sorcerers (and elementalists) were never great.

[Dresan]

I'm confused what a long term goal for a sorcerer could be with the current glass ceilings in place. Like if you make a dwarf sorcerer should it be frowned upon to have their focus be to learn every spell? That simply seems like a natural progression to me.

And elementalists? Same question. Should a dwarf focus shy away from stuff like becoming an elemental, or visiting the plane of Drov, or becoming the most powerful Krathi? It appears to me these high magick plots are frowned upon in the most current game. Should they even be something worth pursuing if they will get likely no staff support, despite it being feasible within the world of play?

My question is what do you intend to do with this coded power that doesn't involve harassing and murdering the rest of the playerbase?

[Alesan]

I'm confused what a long term goal for a sorcerer could be with the current glass ceilings in place. Like if you make a dwarf sorcerer should it be frowned upon to have their focus be to learn every spell? That simply seems like a natural progression to me.

And elementalists? Same question. Should a dwarf focus shy away from stuff like becoming an elemental, or visiting the plane of Drov, or becoming the most powerful Krathi? It appears to me these high magick plots are frowned upon in the most current game. Should they even be something worth pursuing if they will get likely no staff support, despite it being feasible within the world of play?

My question is what do you intend to do with this coded power that doesn't involve harassing and murdering the rest of the playerbase?

Isn't that what sorcerers are meant to do, though? You know, to enforce the fear of magick and create danger and whatnot?

[Dresan]

No. Harassing and murdering the player-base doesn't require that much coded power.

I am sincerely curious to what the purpose of having all this coded power is? Just to be able to kill or harass anyone that stumbles upon your remote cave?

[gotdamnmiracle]

I'm confused what a long term goal for a sorcerer could be with the current glass ceilings in place. Like if you make a dwarf sorcerer should it be frowned upon to have their focus be to learn every spell? That simply seems like a natural progression to me.

And elementalists? Same question. Should a dwarf focus shy away from stuff like becoming an elemental, or visiting the plane of Drov, or becoming the most powerful Krathi? It appears to me these high magick plots are frowned upon in the most current game. Should they even be something worth pursuing if they will get likely no staff support, despite it being feasible within the world of play?

My question is what do you intend to do with this coded power that doesn't involve harassing and murdering the rest of the playerbase?

You could ask the same of any player with a noble role... I don't see your point. My Vivaduan could try to bring oceans of clean water to the Known after the visit the plane of water. My rukkian could cover the land with statues of himself. If you think that after your PC becomes a red robe or elemental that all they can do is execute other players then you lack imagination.

No. Harassing and murdering the player-base doesn't require that much coded power.

I am sincerely curious to what the purpose of having all this coded power is? Just to be able to kill or harass anyone that stumbles upon your remote cave?

This sounds like a belief resulting directly from the glass ceiling itself. In a world with limitless magick the only "project" that's codedly feasible is killing other players using the limited tools that are implied by limited knowledge of unlimited magick.

For more information I suggest looking at a D&D forum regarding what goals a wizard can have and overlook the ones that involve PVP or killing an entire species or something.

[Dresan]

You could ask the same of any player with a noble role... I don't see your point. My Vivaduan could try to bring oceans of clean water to the Known after the visit the plane of water. My rukkian could cover the land with statues of himself. If you think that after your PC becomes a red robe or elemental that all they can do is execute other players then you lack imagination.

This is what i was looking for...you don't need coded power to achieve this, you need staff support.

Even if you have all the spells in the game it won't help you achieve much other then being harder to kill and having the ability to be much more annoying to the rest of the playerbase. 

If the reason you wanted all this coded power was to be harder to kill and be able to harass and murder the player-base without consequence then yes coded power will help you achieve this goal. If you instead wanted your magicker to turn zalanthas into waterworld then you don't need anymore coded power, you just need to be in strong cahoots with a staff member. 

[Khorm]

I'm confused what a long term goal for a sorcerer could be with the current glass ceilings in place. Like if you make a dwarf sorcerer should it be frowned upon to have their focus be to learn every spell? That simply seems like a natural progression to me.

I think your long term goal could be literally anything. I don't think it means that you're going to meet that goal just because you want to. I feel like if every character were able to meet their goals the game would be pretty flat and uninteresting.

I'm not super enthusiastic about the ceiling myself, but brokkr at least made a point that I hadn't thought about and that I can appreciate - have magick be a means to an end instead of being just the end.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Ah. I see. Those two are inextricably combined in my mind. There's simply no way it would be appropriate for a touched Krathi to summon a volcano, nor one of the third-elementals we currently have, likely nor a full krathi. An elemental on the other hand could feasibly do some really wild world plots. Like a Red robe could.

I'm confused what a long term goal for a sorcerer could be with the current glass ceilings in place. Like if you make a dwarf sorcerer should it be frowned upon to have their focus be to learn every spell? That simply seems like a natural progression to me.

I think your long term goal could be literally anything. I don't think it means that you're going to meet that goal just because you want to. I feel like if every character were able to meet their goals the game would be pretty flat and uninteresting.

I'm not super enthusiastic about the ceiling myself, but brokkr at least made a point that I hadn't thought about and that I can appreciate - have magick be a means to an end instead of being just the end.

I agree somewhat, but why is "I wanna be the best kisser" a better goal than "I wanna learn all magicks". A good DM will try and make the world respond and accommodate your goals. A dwarf who wants to kiss will likely fond people to kiss and a dwarf who wants to learn magick, and seeks it out will accomplish that goal unless killed in the process. Same as when they try to kiss Lord Evenar Kasix. That's kind of the point of a MUD over WoW. The "real world responses". If my character could learn more magick in the world then why can't they?

Lol all this talk of potential sounds a lot like phrenology. Not that I'm trying to add to any of the bait discussions.

[Lizzie]

I'm confused what a long term goal for a sorcerer could be with the current glass ceilings in place. Like if you make a dwarf sorcerer should it be frowned upon to have their focus be to learn every spell? That simply seems like a natural progression to me.

And elementalists? Same question. Should a dwarf focus shy away from stuff like becoming an elemental, or visiting the plane of Drov, or becoming the most powerful Krathi? It appears to me these high magick plots are frowned upon in the most current game. Should they even be something worth pursuing if they will get likely no staff support, despite it being feasible within the world of play?

Should the *character* know that it's even possible, or was ever possible, to learn every spell? Should the *character* know that it's possible, or was ever possible, to become an elemental? Would they even know what that means?

[gotdamnmiracle]

I'm confused what a long term goal for a sorcerer could be with the current glass ceilings in place. Like if you make a dwarf sorcerer should it be frowned upon to have their focus be to learn every spell? That simply seems like a natural progression to me.

And elementalists? Same question. Should a dwarf focus shy away from stuff like becoming an elemental, or visiting the plane of Drov, or becoming the most powerful Krathi? It appears to me these high magick plots are frowned upon in the most current game. Should they even be something worth pursuing if they will get likely no staff support, despite it being feasible within the world of play?

Should the *character* know that it's even possible, or was ever possible, to learn every spell? Should the *character* know that it's possible, or was ever possible, to become an elemental? Would they even know what that means?

Sorcery isn't innate. It's learned. If there are sorcerer kings then you KNOW that there is more to be gained.

Elementalists have a connection with their element. They can literally summon creatures of their element to their aid. They get knowledge about their element from their element. If you are playing a PC who chooses to misunderstand that there are creatures beyond themselves then that is your right, just like you can play a character who can barely speak or a mutant shunned by society. I doubt any of those are the norm, however.

[Khorm]

i didn't really pay much/any attention to the original discussion around the shrinking of classes and potential. brokkr may have already articulated the reasoning and I missed it.

having said that I think that narrowing the scope of the game probably accomplishes at least a couple goals from a DM standpoint.

it takes less energy to maintain - mudders are an aging demographic and people are probably a lot less likely to put in an unhealthy amount of hours to make insane shit for the unique logins/week.

favoritism - you get to cull the idea that staff are picking pets to run around like quick/gin/whatever to do amazing shit while everyone else is grebber 1-200. everyone is on a level playing field. (I know people still get dope shit to play around with but it feels less extreme these days)

it seems to me that steps are being taken to make the game more manageable and therefore more sustainable from the administrative side.

I could be way the fuck off base, but these things don't really change the fundamental feel of the game to me.

[mirk_o_loio]

I want to see these sorcs work together. Nak versus four sorcs.

[X-D]

What is interesting to me on Dresan's "harass and kill" Is that...that is EXACTLY what the playerbase does to them. I mean sure, that is backed by docs and all, but I have seen people play...or try to play, totally benign sorcs who have an objective to help like all the good peoples of the world...and so, they had to try and gain more power to protect themselves from the weak minded plebs who could not see the big picture.

Keep in mind, the docs do not say that a sorc or other mages is in fact EVIL...but instead the world at large "sees" them as evil. You have the freedom to play your sorc or mage as you see fit but people not playing sorcs or mages don't..because ORANGE MAN...I mean...MAGIC BAD.

Now, don't get me wrong, I enjoy running away from or plotting to kill every sorc my PC knows about...but the game docs make it so that anybody playing any of them HAVE to be on a quest for power.

Now over the years the game has swung back and forth between UBER magick and UBER mundane...over and over again...Brokkr has impressed me in that for the first time ever in the game, he has managed to make ALL classes and ALL subs equally lame.

In the Immortal words of Syndrome.... "With everyone super, no one will be"

[Dresan]

Brokkr has impressed me in that for the first time ever in the game, he has managed to make ALL classes and ALL subs equally lame.

In the Immortal words of Syndrome.... "With everyone super, no one will be"

Just curious but what do you feel makes all the classes/subclasses lame, that they are strong in their own way?

[Dar]

It's not so bad.

Instead of Nak templars vs Tuluk templars. It's city templars vs wilderness templars. And wilderness templars are much more powerful codedly then most templars and a lot less limited and constrained.

[X-D]

I do not think they are strong in own way, my experience so far with 4 main classes is...they suck....3 subclasses...balls.

Let us look at...for instance, something Brokkr said in the past, and this paraphrase as I am not going to look it up. "We want to make it so people have to work together and make the base classes better...some legacy classes don't have for instance scan, so they cannot go after the PCs they should be able to go after." So, here we have at least 4 classes who have traded skinning (or other skills) For a totally worthless scan skill. Oh you want to fight, that is fine, we made this totally badass fighter...can he do anything else...nope...you HAVE to take a support sub or...you are screwed....depend on others...don't make me laugh. Oh, Stalker, yeah, he is great in sneak and hide and can even craft some things...viable...sure, long as you plan on running away.

Stalker, scout, miscreant and infiltrator are, I am sure the most taken classes..they are abysmal in pvp and barely viable in pve...and what is really funny is, they are the 4 classes almost viable with no need to involve others. Brokkr would have been more truthful if he would have said, "if you want to make a powerful PC you will have to make painful choices and depend on others for survival."