Karma - what is the intention behind it?

[Lutagar]

Some of the subguilds seem to have a bit of overlap. Shame they're all karma locked though. Just as a note, since karma is supposed to lock away powerful characters how are the likes of swordsman/aggrressor/lancer/whatever exceptionally powerful? Tack one onto a class that doesn't get them (a crafting one) and... You still have a subpar fighting character. I mean from a coded point of view, is swordsman etc.. really as hard to trust players with as say, a krathi or whiran?

^ Underrated post I thought deserved it's own discussion.

Karma was used to lock away the classes that could effortlessly PK after a few days played. It's understandable you wouldn't want sorcerers to fall into the wrong hands since one could potentially murderize every PC on grid ten times over.

But why are mundane subclasses being locked away? Why do you need to prove you're worthy of trust to be a crafter that can fight semi-decently?

[Heade]

I agree with you, here. When extended subguilds first came out, they didn't require any karma at all. Then, they went to 1 karma, which I think is OK. Then, they compressed karma, making 5 karma players suddenly have 2. And they increased the cost of some ESGs to 2. So technically, playing some of these ESGs is the historical equivalent to a 5 karma role. That, in my opinion, is quite ridiculous considering what Karma has historically been for.

I think having all mundane ESGs be 1 karma is fine, to differentiate them from regular subguilds and ensure that people can't just spam ESG characters. But I see no reason to consider making any mundane ESG cost more than that.

[Cind]

Make people regen karma at somewhat higher rates.

Grebber and master weaponsmith aren't on the same level as swordsmaster and whatever the other new ones are called, so making them the same karma seems lopsided.

Therefore, keep things the same, but people regenerate karma faster. Perhaps every fifteen days.

This way, powerful stealthmaster c-elves can pursue dangerous plots without worrying that they can't get the right subguild when they die.

[Heade]

Grebber and master weaponsmith aren't on the same level as swordsmaster and whatever the other new ones are called, so making them the same karma seems lopsided.

There is no "level" comparison between Swordsman and Master Weaponsmith. It's all purely about what you want your character to do. There is no reason to punish one type of PC or the other, based on some arbitrary definition of "level". I wouldn't consider a combat-based PC on a different "power level" than an economic PC. They both excel in their given arenas. And because of what core classes would -want- many of these combat subs, It's quite often punishing mercantile characters with higher CGP costs, not combat characters.

[yousuff]

I just want to point out that karma (which is granted based on your ability to roleplay and not abuse game mechanics among other reasons) seems to collapse when you have difficulty trusting a player to have a miscreant/swordmaster. Which codedly, isn't weak but nowhere near the levels of say a miscreant/magicker, which is equivalent in terms of karma requirements. Seems stupid tbh, drop all mundane extended subclasses to 1 karma as they'll never be used outside of very niche roles.

I've been playing the game for like 6 years and only have 1 karma. So to those on staff, just using myself as an example would you really have issue with a player like myself playing a miscreant/swordmaster or miscreant/marksman without a spec app? Or a dune trader/swordsmaster? Or any class/swordsmaster?

On the same note, why would any crafter character not pick an extended subguild custom crafter or the custom crafter subguild? You lose the primary novelty of a crafting character by giving them any of the new combat subclasses (which is what they synergise best with) as they can no longer custom craft so they're unlikely to see any use anyway.

[Krath]

I am old AF now, but Karma Levels used to only unlock Desert elves, half Giants, muls, All magickers, and PSI.

I have to agree with most on here about the karma levels and subguilds. All mundane Subs should be 0 or 1 Karma and magickers,muls,delves and Giants 1-3.

Any staff member, could you perhaps explain the reasoning behind, in a a summary, about why 2 karma mundanes require the same level of trust as 2 karma magickers and races, when the RP level required for the latter is much more difficult?

[The Warshaper]

I agree with you, here. When extended subguilds first came out, they didn't require any karma at all. Then, they went to 1 karma, which I think is OK. Then, they compressed karma, making 5 karma players suddenly have 2. And they increased the cost of some ESGs to 2. So technically, playing some of these ESGs is the historical equivalent to a 5 karma role. That, in my opinion, is quite ridiculous considering what Karma has historically been for.

I think this is more the issue at hand. Part of the compression might have been missed, lots of things happening quickly. I love to see new additions and options available to new and old players alike as it spices things up like a tasty chalton steak. I like where we're coming to as far as mundane options and possible character concepts, 2 CGP for extended mundane classes as has been discussed seems a -leetle- pricey.

[Veselka]

I'd prefer for the sub guilds themselves to all be available, but regenerate much in the way karma does now. So if you roll up a fighter/slipknife, the 'slip knife' option isn't available for one month.

I agree that it seems a little silly that the sub guilds are locked behind karma -- The potential of skills does not require nearly as much trust as might a magicker, and even then, magickers are not of the strength they once were.

With the flattening of the karma system, it almost seems like it should be used for other benefits or roles. Perhaps factor more into sponsored role selection, or be used as a spreadsheet for Staff to pick from for their secret role calls. But as a degree of 'trust', the playing field has changed, and the roles that seem to require trust are not terribly over-powered or strong by themselves.

My understanding is that a race like Mul requires restraint and understanding of the documentation that a new player or even relatively new player may not fully grasp. The same goes with half-giant, and formerly, Nilazi and Elkrosians compared to say a Rukkian. The potential of great harm without great restraint or understanding of documentation is what put these behind the wall of 'karma trust'. But a Swordsman? I cannot see how this is a great deal more troublesome than just any old fighter.

[Heade]

On the same note, why would any crafter character not pick an extended subguild custom crafter or the custom crafter subguild? You lose the primary novelty of a crafting character by giving them any of the new combat subclasses (which is what they synergise best with) as they can no longer custom craft so they're unlikely to see any use anyway.

While I agree with you that it seems quite silly to pick a heavy mercantile class without the custom crafter sub, I think that is a seperate issue that merits its own discussion thread, like this one https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54064.0.html.

I'd be interested in hearing/discussing community feedback on both issues, but don't want to derail this thread.

[Miradus]

For me, karma (and all the things locked behind it) have ceased to be an interesting feature of this game I've chosen to play and more of a point of contention.

[yousuff]

For me, karma (and all the things locked behind it) have ceased to be an interesting feature of this game I've chosen to play and more of a point of contention.

Honestly this. Karma sucks

[yousuff]

Genuine question. What if karma were outright removed? Just limit the amounts of race/magickers a person can play a year, and the amount allowed ingame at any one time. Max 2 muls? Max 6 elementalists? Max 2 sorcerors and psions? Or instead of hardcapping it, just wing it and play it by ear. If something becomes to prevailant just don't accept any more applications for it for a while, let them die off and when people send in apps for those positions just tell them to wait a while and roll something else. After six years of playing the game I have yet to be trusted with the ability to throw fireballs. In all honesty it feels pointlessly limiting. I am sure I'm not alone in thinking the whole karma system is hopelessly outdated.

[Marauder Moe]

With the power and versatility of the new classes, I agree that it no longer makes sense for extended subguilds to require karma.  They're just not that big of a power/versatility boost anymore, and there's no thematic reason for them to be rarer.

Mundane things that karma could maybe be spent on instead:
*Skill boosts
*Stat boosts
*Starting money boost
*Custom crafting

[Heade]

I don't have a problem with Karma existing. I just don't think locking mundane ESGs behind a 2 karma gate makes any sort of sense. I really don't want complete noobs who have never played rocking fireballs or Muls, even if they only get 1 shot at it per year.

Karma has a REASON for existing, and I agree with that reason. But the current 2 Karma mundane subs don't coincide with that reason. I'm only in favor of making them 1 Karma to differentiate them from the base subs, and provide a limiting factor to fight against suicide/reroll ESG/suicide/reroll ESG till players get a stat roll they're happy with.

[sleepyhead]

I still believe that everyone should have 1 spendable karma by default, even if it means bumping up the scale to a 5 max. Make all the ESG's 1 karma. Then they're available to newbies, but they can't play them every single character unless they get some longevity under their belts, because it still has to regenerate.

You could even make it so noobs start with 0/1 and their first karma is awarded after a month, although I'm afraid that might lead to newbies not feeling excited about their first character and choosing to wait a month before starting, then losing interest before they get the karma point. So I would prefer if everyone just started with a solid 1 karma.

[MeTekillot]

Letting players have more control over their stats would solve the suicide problem and we could remove the karma regeneration feature that only seems to be there to discourage suiciding. Along with maybe just penalizing people who commit obvious suicide.

[yousuff]

I still believe that everyone should have 1 spendable karma by default, even if it means bumping up the scale to a 5 max. Make all the ESG's 1 karma. Then they're available to newbies, but they can't play them every single character unless they get some longevity under their belts, because it still has to regenerate.

You could even make it so noobs start with 0/1 and their first karma is awarded after a month, although I'm afraid that might lead to newbies not feeling excited about their first character and choosing to wait a month before starting, then losing interest before they get the karma point. So I would prefer if everyone just started with a solid 1 karma.

This is a tasty idea.

[Miradus]

They do punish obvious suicides. I had my next character application delayed by like 48 hours after I took a crappy character and used it to explore a risky area and ended up dying while doing it (as expected). Granted, I really didn't understand why that was a problem UNTIL they explained it as a problem, but punishment was delivered.

But the lack of transparency into punishment for actions is sort of what sets up this distrust in the system.

The response you get is, "No, you can't get a karma point because we don't trust you." But then you see Joe Fireball kill 5 people a week for months on end and you ask yourself, "But they trust THAT guy? He's not exhibiting ANY of the behavior they told me to emulate." It breeds the belief that there's enormous favoritism going on behind the scenes.

Let me ask this question ... in the past year, how many players have had karma points removed for abuse of the game?

[Heade]

I still believe that everyone should have 1 spendable karma by default, even if it means bumping up the scale to a 5 max. Make all the ESG's 1 karma. Then they're available to newbies, but they can't play them every single character unless they get some longevity under their belts, because it still has to regenerate.

I think this is a good idea, although they'd only need to raise the karma cap to 4. In any case, this system would work, as long as they don't keep some ESGs at 2 Karma, which is what I feel like someone would try to do. Half-ass the implementation of a great idea, ending up with something that really doesn't resolve the issue.

Maybe I'm just a cynic, that way.

[sleepyhead]

Oh yes, sorry, I meant 4 not 5.

EDIT: Actually, I may have meant 5 after all, though I'm not sure of the logistics. We do have to take the 1-karma touched subs into consideration. I don't think anyone's first character should be a touched, but bumping them up to 2 (and making them equal to magick aspect subs) is a little much. So maybe there'd have to be an extra extension of the scale there, but I feel like it could be worked out.

[Heade]

Oh yes, sorry, I meant 4 not 5.

EDIT: Actually, I may have meant 5 after all, though I'm not sure of the logistics. We do have to take the 1-karma touched subs into consideration. I don't think anyone's first character should be a touched, but bumping them up to 2 (and making them equal to magick aspect subs) is a little much. So maybe there'd have to be an extra extension of the scale there, but I feel like it could be worked out.

I disagree. And the higher you push karma back up, at that point, the more convoluted it would get, which would have implications on the karma regeneration system as well.

Touched are currently equal in cost to some of the magick aspect subs, aren't they? And I think that's fine. Just because one person might percieve two things of equal karma as not equal, power-wise, doesn't necessarily mean they HAVE to be different karma costs. This is part of the problem. Karma was never about ranking power, it was about trust to play a role. And playing a touched, with all the social ramifications of it, in my opinion, is equally as challenging as playing some of the less powerful elemental aspects.

Historically, at the uppper end of that, with things like sorcerer's, it required a lot of trust -because- of power, but that, in and of itself shouldn't be miscronstrued as the entire system being about power. It never was intended that way.

[sleepyhead]

I agree with you in principle, Heade. But it has been stated that one of the main intentions of introducing "touched" was to encourage players interested in mages to choose them as a gentle introduction to the magick system. If they end up equal in karma cost to full magick subs, it might defeat that purpose. While I'm totally with you that it shouldn't be about coded power level, I fear that we wouldn't see them very often (especially a couple of them) if they were equal to aspects karmawise. Kind of like if we made all extended subclasses 0 karma along with regular subclasses at this point, most of the regular subclasses would never be chosen again. And perhaps it shouldn't be that way, but I think it would be, and at some point we have to consider things realistically rather than idealistically IMO.

I'm not really against making them all the same karma level, though. It wouldn't bother me, personally. I'm just predicting a couple minor problems if that happens.

[Heade]

I agree with you in principle, Heade. But it has been stated that one of the main intentions of introducing "touched" was to encourage players interested in mages to choose them as a gentle introduction to the magick system. If they end up equal in karma cost to full magick subs, it might defeat that purpose. While I'm totally with you that it shouldn't be about coded power level, I fear that we wouldn't see them very often (especially a couple of them) if they were equal to aspects karmawise. Kind of like if we made all extended subclasses 0 karma along with regular subclasses at this point, most of the regular subclasses would never be chosen again. And perhaps it shouldn't be that way, but I think it would be, and at some point we have to consider things realistically rather than idealistically IMO.

I'm not really against making them all the same karma level, though. It wouldn't bother me, personally. I'm just predicting a couple minor problems if that happens.

If things being equal karma costs makes some of those things rarely played, that probably indicates a problem with that thing, and not really with the Karma cost. It's sort of like swordsman is, right now. The primary classes that would want something like that are heavy mercantile classes that would have to choose between it and being able to custom craft. And playing a heavy crafter who can't custom craft is sort of "blah".

To put it more bluntly, I don't care if there are some touched that end up rarely played. Karma has always been about trust in roles, not about shoehorning people into roles they're not as interested in. It shouldn't be used as a filter to herd people into particular roles.

[Armaddict]

Eh.  New classes make ESG's completely overfilling.  Just go back to all non-karma subguilds, have only those races and classes behind karma walls, and we'll be better off for it.

[Delirium]

Eh.  New classes make ESG's completely overfilling.  Just go back to all non-karma subguilds, have only those races and classes behind karma walls, and we'll be better off for it.

Yes. Races + magic behind karma walls. K.I.S.S. with the mundane subguilds and make em all 0 karma. 1 karma max if we absolutely gotta.

[Inks]

All to 1. The mundane ESG are not super powerful now, with the prevalence of weapon skills and parry/shield. I like the current refill rate though

Then again I don't mind it staying as is. Eh. I think balance wise 1 is better.

[Seeker]

Eh.  New classes make ESG's completely overfilling.  Just go back to all non-karma subguilds, have only those races and classes behind karma walls, and we'll be better off for it.

Yes. Races + magic behind karma walls. K.I.S.S. with the mundane subguilds and make em all 0 karma. 1 karma max if we absolutely gotta.

This really seems like the way to go.

[roughneck]

Eh.  New classes make ESG's completely overfilling.  Just go back to all non-karma subguilds, have only those races and classes behind karma walls, and we'll be better off for it.

Yes. Races + magic behind karma walls. K.I.S.S. with the mundane subguilds and make em all 0 karma. 1 karma max if we absolutely gotta.

This really seems like the way to go.

I agree with the sentiment.

But, what does 'K.I.S.S.' mean?

[Delirium]

 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

[cnemus]

I believe the intention behind karma is to identify players who understand and enhance the gameworld through quality roleplay, understanding of the documents and setting, and show responsibility in using the code to support RP rather than power. So, while one part of karma is to make sure someone can play a role (like a restricted race), another is that they will use the role to enhance the setting (magickers), and they won't abuse a potential situation where they have a skill combination that gives them a marked advantage over others (ESG). There are imbalances of power all through Arm, that alone isn't an issue for me... but all of those imbalances are countered by another influence or area. I prefer to see characters that are really, really good at one thing and have crippling weakness in another, but subguilds and extended subguilds are an opportunity to mitigate those weaknesses.

I think we do need some more time with the new classes to understand the balance issues, but I think some of the combat or stealth skills that the ESG provides can create some combinations that do take some restraint. I personally don't mind having them take 1 or 2 karma. My reasoning is that it is a way to encourage people to invest some thought and planning into their character and the regeneration time encourages them to play it out, even if it isn't exactly what they hoped or the stats are disappointing. If a change were to be made, I would personally condense 2 karma all into 1 karma and leave all the 1 karma ESG alone. It takes a month to regen that one point. I think ESG costing karma is a way for karma players to do something with karma that doesn't involve magick and can still enhance their gaming experience and the setting.

I like the new 3 point karma system. I like regeneration of karma. I don't think this should change.

[Medena]

My reasoning is that it is a way to encourage people to invest some thought and planning into their character and the regeneration time encourages them to play it out, even if it isn't exactly what they hoped or the stats are disappointing.

and

I like the new 3 point karma system. I like regeneration of karma. I don't think this should change.

and a lot of other good stuff.

+1

Thanks for the well thought out and articulate opinion.  I agree with it all. 

[Synthesis]

I believe the intention behind karma is to identify players who understand and enhance the gameworld through quality roleplay, understanding of the documents and setting, and show responsibility in using the code to support RP rather than power. So, while one part of karma is to make sure someone can play a role (like a restricted race), another is that they will use the role to enhance the setting (magickers), and they won't abuse a potential situation where they have a skill combination that gives them a marked advantage over others (ESG). There are imbalances of power all through Arm, that alone isn't an issue for me... but all of those imbalances are countered by another influence or area. I prefer to see characters that are really, really good at one thing and have crippling weakness in another, but subguilds and extended subguilds are an opportunity to mitigate those weaknesses.

I think we do need some more time with the new classes to understand the balance issues, but I think some of the combat or stealth skills that the ESG provides can create some combinations that do take some restraint. I personally don't mind having them take 1 or 2 karma. My reasoning is that it is a way to encourage people to invest some thought and planning into their character and the regeneration time encourages them to play it out, even if it isn't exactly what they hoped or the stats are disappointing. If a change were to be made, I would personally condense 2 karma all into 1 karma and leave all the 1 karma ESG alone. It takes a month to regen that one point. I think ESG costing karma is a way for karma players to do something with karma that doesn't involve magick and can still enhance their gaming experience and the setting.

I like the new 3 point karma system. I like regeneration of karma. I don't think this should change.

I've been playing this game for 19 years, and I -still- occasionally die under 5 days played.  Having to play a shit-tier inferior subclass simply because an NPC gith rolled AI strength and first-round double-attack-reel-locked-double-brutal'ed my perfectly well-thought-out character is pretty fucking annoying, honestly.

It's not unplayably annoying, but the slow regen really only encourages people to play half-ass PCs (if they play at all) to kill time until they get to play what they really want to play.

If I didn't have a raft of new classes to explore, I probably wouldn't bother with it...because why?  Why would I pick a subclass Armorcrafter who lacks tanning and haggle, when I can wait a month and play a Master Armorcrafter and get tanning and haggle, which exponentially increase ease of crafting and 'sid generation?

[Samira]

The regular subguilds seem sort of obsolete with the new main classes, and I don't see the value of limiting the number of PCs with extended subguilds.

I would usually pick a subguild to either A) get climb or B) start with a skill that I would branch but didn't want to. To run with Synthesis's example, Armorcrafter used to be useful for merchants because Armor Repair, which used to branch Armor Making, is impossible to skill up, much less branch off of. Now, Armor Repair branches off of Armor Making.

[evilcabbage]

to my knowledge they fixed the armor repair issue before the new classes came out.

[Heade]

Now, Armor Repair branches off of Armor Making.

This isn't true for all classes. For example, Dune Traders still branch armor making from armor repair.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Also have to consider race/esg combos.

[Bogre]

I think it actually predisposes people towards not playing mundanes, too. 2 karma being the same for an ESG vs a magick guild just makes magick that much more appealing.

[Heade]

I think it actually predisposes people towards not playing mundanes, too. 2 karma being the same for an ESG vs a magick guild just makes magick that much more appealing.

YES!

And I would like to see more mundanes. So, so much secret gick. It's more like secret mundanes. Who's REALLY playing a mundane?

[Cind]

Now, Armor Repair branches off of Armor Making.

This isn't true for all classes. For example, Dune Traders still branch armor making from armor repair.

Legacy merchants could expect to automatically branch new crafting skills, the most basic ones first, from anywhere from 3 to 45 RL days played at a time (one time it took me two months to get the first basic ones.) I hope this is still a thing for heavy merchant classes, although I wouldn't know yet. Then the armormaking branching would make a little more sense.

[Vex]

Having to play a shit-tier inferior subclass simply because an NPC gith rolled AI strength and first-round double-attack-reel-locked-double-brutal'ed my perfectly well-thought-out character is pretty fucking annoying, honestly.

I like that, someone actually said it like it is, for a change.

Since the +1 karma subs, are basically just more useful versions of the 0 karma subs, and the 2 karma subs are really pricey, since you can just get a proper magick sub for the same, you could eliminate most of the old subs, downgrade the +1 karma to 0 karma, and the +2 karma to +1.

Everyone gets the "good" regular subs, you can spend one karma for the combat subs, or two or three karma for magick. Imo, that makes a little more sense, than how it is now.

The new class system is great, but it makes the old subs look... pretty bad, tbh.

Except Outlaw.

<3 Outlaw.

[Boogerbear]

Armorcrafter used to be useful for merchants because Armor Repair, which used to branch Armor Making, is impossible to skill up, much less branch off of.

I've done it at least three times, but it was never fun and the all three merchants played in clans with warriors who sparred and tore up their shields a lot.

Having said that, I'd still rather have scan/city listen instead of automatic armor making, but I digress.

In total agreement with what people have said here about keeping karma for magickers/different races, not mundane subguilds.

[boog]

From another viewpoint, since this has been about a lot of combat skeelz: I think some of the karma requirement is to gate off custom crafting. I get that it's a thankless, monotonous, sometimes obnoxious job, having made close to thousands of items and a little less when in terms of crafting numbers, but maybe we should hire builders who have the sole task of completing, editing, or y'know, just doing the crafts/items associated with custom crafting.

[Boogerbear]

From another viewpoint, since this has been about a lot of combat skeelz: I think some of the karma requirement is to gate off custom crafting. I get that it's a thankless, monotonous, sometimes obnoxious job, having made close to thousands of items and a little less when in terms of crafting numbers, but maybe we should hire builders who have the sole task of completing, editing, or y'know, just doing the crafts/items associated with custom crafting.

When Morgenes was still around, I asked for a position like this:  a way to help but not actually be a staff in-game/somehow be insulated from info staff normally gets.  He said it wasn't really possible.

I think a lot of people would like to help but don't want to... know everything that's going on.

[boog]

That's the point of a builder, though. They're there to build rooms or objects. Not crafts, though, which sort of takes away some of their usefulness.

[Boogerbear]

I just sorta assumed builders get access to things like imm's "who," staff forums, and pfiles, which would be enough for me to not want it. But they couldn't do storytelling-like stuff or otherwise interact with the game world.

If that's not the case, well, cool.  But you're right: there's a lot more help that could be used, regardless.

I'd do it if there was a way to completely, totally separate things, but that would probably require more coding.

[boog]

Yeah. I don't imagine it'd be too difficult to restrict things, and even have a low, low, looooow level totem pole person who just did typo fixes and stuff, but I'm not sure of my recall on this, but I'm fairly positive builders don't know who is who, but I can say with certainty that they do not have storyline access.

[650Booger]

they want more mundanes running around.  they want to lower the power curve of the gen pop.  this is my interpretation.  the ESGs are more powerful than the 0 karma SGs.  If all SGs were 0 karma, the old SGs would never be used.  might as well scrap them from the game at that point.

[Vex]

they want more mundanes running around.  they want to lower the power curve of the gen pop.  this is my interpretation.  the ESGs are more powerful than the 0 karma SGs.  If all SGs were 0 karma, the old SGs would never be used.  might as well scrap them from the game at that point.

I don't know anyone, who doesn't just wait for their karma to regenerate, before making a "pc they care about". The only ones who do, make pcs they don't invest in or care about, so they can store or suicide, when they have karma for whatever they REALLY want to do.

It is, as you say. Might as well scrap them. At least then, new players, aren't going to end up feeling like second class players. I guess, according to most self-glorified "vets", they ARE basically second class fodder, so maybe it's all working as intended?

[Armaddict]

Scrap the ESG's if anything.

We've just moved to a class structure that is far more diverse and far more 'skillful'.  ESG's no longer fill the role of granting further customization, they serve to try to min-max things and that's it.

Weaken subclasses to the standard of the normal subclasses, none but magickal are behind a karma wall, and we're in a healthy spot.

[Boogerbear]

they want more mundanes running around.  they want to lower the power curve of the gen pop.  this is my interpretation.  the ESGs are more powerful than the 0 karma SGs.  If all SGs were 0 karma, the old SGs would never be used.  might as well scrap them from the game at that point.

Some of them would be redundant, but the strength of the mundane subguilds could be enhanced to at least get them a little closer to being solid fill-ins for extended subguilds.

Personally, I wouldn't pick gladiator again unless it was a throwaway character.  It's hard for me to picture myself being excited about playing a non-extended-subguild *unless* we're talking about a hybrid crafting class where CC is a viable alternative.

As it stands, I like the CC option.  Even if I can't make a PC as an aggressor/bruiser/etc and be good to go to automatically join the Byn and actively doing stuff, there is still an allure to being able to hypothetically mastercraft.

So, at this point, I feel like I would either go pure-class with custom crafter option or choose an extended subguild.  Fighter might be the one class I'd go with as a mundane sub that gives ride/direction sense...

The last couple of times I played chars with over 20 days having mundane subguilds, well, I just kept thinking, "What if I had waited and picked X extended subguild instead?"  It's a needling thought once you find yourself with a character who's survived a lot.

[Alesan]

How are 0-karma players not second-class players? They are not trusted with higher power subclasses. This is basically what any 0-karma player is told through the game because they don't have the choice of picking a higher power subclass without asking for permission via a special app.

[Boogerbear]

Scrap the ESG's if anything.

We've just moved to a class structure that is far more diverse and far more 'skillful'.  ESG's no longer fill the role of granting further customization, they serve to try to min-max things and that's it.

Weaken subclasses to the standard of the normal subclasses, none but magickal are behind a karma wall, and we're in a healthy spot.

Well, the fact that merchantish classes can't pick an extended subguild AND mastercraft is a pretty big deterrent for a big chunk of classes, whereas before the merchantish classes were the ones who seemed to benefit greatly from the combat-oriented ESGs.

[Jihelu]

If I recall a ton of people liked the merchant class, or atleast a lot more than currently like Artisan. Artisan is what, the most underplayed new class? I thought to my self 'Jihelu, why is that'. And then I realized, you can't MC with it.

Which I actually thought was kinda silly because people rarely MC to begin with, but I guess the idea that you /might/ puts people off?

Also it eats your subguild.

[Heade]

Scrap the ESG's if anything.

We've just moved to a class structure that is far more diverse and far more 'skillful'.  ESG's no longer fill the role of granting further customization, they serve to try to min-max things and that's it.

Weaken subclasses to the standard of the normal subclasses, none but magickal are behind a karma wall, and we're in a healthy spot.

I disagree with all of this. Subclasses still serve to diversify characters, and, if anything, ESGs give you the opportunity to play characters with diverse skills that are actually useful, whereas most of the basic subs were often used to just "unlock" toggle abilities where skill level didn't matter, like foraging food in the wilderness, or language skills/accents.

With ESGs and higher skill caps, the "custom" skills you add to a class are actually useful IG, and not just window dressing for the "toggle" abilities people were really going after.

I still think the best idea is to just make all ESGs 1 karma across the board, and be done with it. Also, for god sake, give heavy mercantile classes the ability to custom craft so they can pick a REAL subclass. That decision was absurd. It makes more sense for master crafter ESGs not to have mastercrafting than for the core crafting classes not to.

[Delirium]

I still think the best idea is to just make all ESGs 1 karma across the board, and be done with it. Also, for god sake, give heavy mercantile classes the ability to custom craft so they can pick a REAL subclass.

[Armaddict]

ESGs give you the opportunity to play characters with diverse skills that are actually useful

Show me one of the new classes that is useless without and ESG.

There are wonky skillsets, but none of them are useless.  There's greater variety.  Keeping ESG's is just a movement towards making those new classes -less- relevant...we just made a huge switch in the formula for how characters are made.  I say less relevant...because it's a movement towards a myth-like 'everyone capable of most things', which may sound well and good, but it's entirely -boring-.

There's no reason to put any 'better subguilds' at some higher tier when that only muddies the waters.  Make all subclasses 3-4 capable but mediocre additions, put magick behind the karma gate, and all those complaints that people have go away at the cost of actually still having niches for characters to fill.  Or wait, that's not a cost, that's a boon.

[Boogerbear]

Artisan isn't THAT bad.  It's crazy how fast they branched with the initial bumps they get.

But they require a player to:

A) Join a clan

B) Hide until they've progressed enough to recruit people or gain master crafting skills.

C) Avoid Allanak.  Seriously, I play a lot, and I stopped counting how many times I was crafting away/walking around when suddenly some dude unlocks the door from the other side or fails a sneak while following me.

D) Be a GMH family member who is reliant on other PCs for: hunting, intelligence gathering, guarding, scanning/thief protection, and basically anything besides making stuff.

But they can make stuff really well and branch quickly.  It's just that they're even more defenseless than legacy merchants when it comes to thieves, which is bad when you suddenly have a city swarming with thiefy types because of the new classes.

Hard mode, yes.  Long term, yes.  Impossible?  Nah, it can be done.

[Bogre]

I'm with Heade.

Keep the ESGs, lower their karma requirement. They add flavor and utility.

[Boogerbear]

To add, if an Artisan picked a "Real" extended subguild with scan/city listen (I don't think there's one offering both, but anyway), well, it's already been noted that extended subguild scan probably won't detect the stealth guilds.

Legacy merchant had master scan; only two of the three heavy merchantile classes have scan now, and it only goes up to advanced.

[Jihelu]

You can take majordomo for advanced scan/listen.

[650Booger]

I think lots of us want our characters to be total badasses at everything.  the craving for power is the problem.  playing a character with built in weaknesses is actually fun, if you ask me.

[Heade]

ESGs give you the opportunity to play characters with diverse skills that are actually useful

Show me one of the new classes that is useless without and ESG.

There are wonky skillsets, but none of them are useless.  There's greater variety.  Keeping ESG's is just a movement towards making those new classes -less- relevant...we just made a huge switch in the formula for how characters are made.  I say less relevant...because it's a movement towards a myth-like 'everyone capable of most things', which may sound well and good, but it's entirely -boring-.

There's no reason to put any 'better subguilds' at some higher tier when that only muddies the waters.  Make all subclasses 3-4 capable but mediocre additions, put magick behind the karma gate, and all those complaints that people have go away at the cost of actually still having niches for characters to fill.  Or wait, that's not a cost, that's a boon.

I never said any of the core classes were useless. What I said was, that some of the BASE SUBCLASSES gave skills at a level that were pretty useless.

Example? Apprentice level slashing weapons on gladiator. Or jman sneak/hide/steal on thief.

If you actually expect your character to use these things IG without getting caught or beat the vast majority of the time, those aren't at useful levels of skill, and will likely get you in trouble for even bothering to have them, more than they will help you at all.

Generally, the more experienced players knew not to use subguilds for "active" or "contested" abilities like combat, stealth, or criminal behavior. Instead, people picked subs almost purely for utility stuff, like languages, crafting, accents, or toggle abilities like wilderness/city flags for stealth, or foraging.


What I -did- say was that ESGs STILL provide a way to flesh out base classes to mold them into character concepts. People's concepts for characters are endlessly varied, and so having as much variation in subclasses as possible is desireable.

[Boogerbear]

I think lots of us want our characters to be total badasses at everything.  the craving for power is the problem.  playing a character with built in weaknesses is actually fun, if you ask me.

Well, we have different realms when it comes to power:  Stealth, Fighting, Crafting, Surviving Outside, Magick.

Even with the most min-maxed class/subclass combos possible, a player won't be able to be badass in all of those things. If they're lucky, they can be mediocre at 3 and badass at 1, maybe 2.

[Cind]

The way things are are far better than they were. I don't know where the (relatively light) negativity on this forum is coming from lately. I think you'll were just nervous about the elections.

Then again, I'm pretty happy with whatever doesn't rock my crafting boat, and that odd sense of not being able to find a subguild for a mercantile that people won't hate you for? Staff are working on it.

[Nao]

Example? Apprentice level slashing weapons on gladiator. Or jman sneak/hide/steal on thief.

Apprentice in a weapon skill you would not get without the subclass is far from useless. Same for journeyman steal, you just need to limit yourself to (smaller) items that are relatively easy to steal.

[Miradus]

Apprentice in a weapon skill you would not get without the subclass is far from useless. Same for journeyman steal, you just need to limit yourself to (smaller) items that are relatively easy to steal.

I can't vouch for the weapon skill, but I've noticed by the time a skill ticks up from novice to apprentice I'm usually pretty good at combat in PVE. That might just be the hidden offense/defense skill though.

I CAN say that journeyman steal is pretty damn good. If you are successfully hidden, with very good agility or higher, and the item you're stealing is lightweight and not in a pack or pouch but rather worn on a belt or in open inventory ... you've got greater than a 90% chance of success.

Also, steal has TWO checks. One check to succeed at the theft, a follow up check to see if you're seen. If you're not seen but you failed to steal, they're just going to feel a hand in their pocket. No crimcode triggering and you won't be outed as a thief since you're successfully hidden.

I've always got a chuckle out of those people who think you need master steal before you ever try to lift anything. Take the risk if there's something you really want.

[Cind]

I've seen a steal attempt on my own person which physically failed but was seen by me and other people, and it was funny because I was pretending not to notice it at an OOC level and everyone else was ROFLSTOMP THAT DUDE. (He stole an empty bag.)

I always thought karma was an attempt to assure that meks weren't populating the roads outside and inside the city due to a surplus of crazy whirans, but this actually wasn't under control until a couple of years ago, so its not a foolproof system, and I honestly don't think its ever going to be.

The length of time required to make your character good at anything, plus the ease of death to things that aren't other players, always seemed to me to be things that have to make the playerbase naturally averse to risk, plus like staff said once, the playerbase is getting older, and are taking fewer risks on a daily basis than we used to. What I mean is that I don't think anyone should care that there were a bunch of whirans throwing meks into the most often-used roads, about four times more often than they are actually drawn there by victims running away from their natural habitat. Witches are dangerous; witches are scary. The game mechanics do not reward the player for being either, although roleplay does.

Yeah, I've been killed by whiran-thrown meks. A lot. It was awesome. But I usually play characters that don't spend a month or two training their combat skills, so I can't speak for their pain.

Bring goddamn elkros/drovians/nilazis back.

[Bogre]

The current karma mechanics definitely support risk-averse play.

[Vox]

Honestly, it's probably time to further simplify Karma. I say this as a player who has played everything. (Except legacy merchant, I just didn't want to craft that much)

0 should be the Newby entrance point, but ungate extended subguilds. And then make 1 the maximum and unlock everything.

Let people earn their point and then play well to keep it. Put the responsibility on players to show they're capable and make it binary. You either are or you're not. 0 or 1. Sorcerer and Psi can still be special app only. But if people can RP well enough to earn a karma point, let's allow them to prove that it means they're capable  Their actions will prove otherwise and get us out of this odd heirarchy of middle class RPers who wonder why they're stuck at 2 Karma.

Additionally the regen system is equally silly and as mentioned steers players towards risk averse play. For regen to be truly affective the choices needs to be far more powerful. (I.e. actual specialized classes with master level skills that work together rather than the jack of all trades choices that would be basic)

And yes, please bring back elkros, drov and nilaz.