Karma - what is the intention behind it?

[Inks]

All to 1. The mundane ESG are not super powerful now, with the prevalence of weapon skills and parry/shield. I like the current refill rate though

Then again I don't mind it staying as is. Eh. I think balance wise 1 is better.

[Seeker]

Eh.  New classes make ESG's completely overfilling.  Just go back to all non-karma subguilds, have only those races and classes behind karma walls, and we'll be better off for it.

Yes. Races + magic behind karma walls. K.I.S.S. with the mundane subguilds and make em all 0 karma. 1 karma max if we absolutely gotta.

This really seems like the way to go.

[roughneck]

Eh.  New classes make ESG's completely overfilling.  Just go back to all non-karma subguilds, have only those races and classes behind karma walls, and we'll be better off for it.

Yes. Races + magic behind karma walls. K.I.S.S. with the mundane subguilds and make em all 0 karma. 1 karma max if we absolutely gotta.

This really seems like the way to go.

I agree with the sentiment.

But, what does 'K.I.S.S.' mean?

[Delirium]

 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

[cnemus]

I believe the intention behind karma is to identify players who understand and enhance the gameworld through quality roleplay, understanding of the documents and setting, and show responsibility in using the code to support RP rather than power. So, while one part of karma is to make sure someone can play a role (like a restricted race), another is that they will use the role to enhance the setting (magickers), and they won't abuse a potential situation where they have a skill combination that gives them a marked advantage over others (ESG). There are imbalances of power all through Arm, that alone isn't an issue for me... but all of those imbalances are countered by another influence or area. I prefer to see characters that are really, really good at one thing and have crippling weakness in another, but subguilds and extended subguilds are an opportunity to mitigate those weaknesses.

I think we do need some more time with the new classes to understand the balance issues, but I think some of the combat or stealth skills that the ESG provides can create some combinations that do take some restraint. I personally don't mind having them take 1 or 2 karma. My reasoning is that it is a way to encourage people to invest some thought and planning into their character and the regeneration time encourages them to play it out, even if it isn't exactly what they hoped or the stats are disappointing. If a change were to be made, I would personally condense 2 karma all into 1 karma and leave all the 1 karma ESG alone. It takes a month to regen that one point. I think ESG costing karma is a way for karma players to do something with karma that doesn't involve magick and can still enhance their gaming experience and the setting.

I like the new 3 point karma system. I like regeneration of karma. I don't think this should change.

[Medena]

My reasoning is that it is a way to encourage people to invest some thought and planning into their character and the regeneration time encourages them to play it out, even if it isn't exactly what they hoped or the stats are disappointing.

and

I like the new 3 point karma system. I like regeneration of karma. I don't think this should change.

and a lot of other good stuff.

+1

Thanks for the well thought out and articulate opinion.  I agree with it all. 

[Synthesis]

I believe the intention behind karma is to identify players who understand and enhance the gameworld through quality roleplay, understanding of the documents and setting, and show responsibility in using the code to support RP rather than power. So, while one part of karma is to make sure someone can play a role (like a restricted race), another is that they will use the role to enhance the setting (magickers), and they won't abuse a potential situation where they have a skill combination that gives them a marked advantage over others (ESG). There are imbalances of power all through Arm, that alone isn't an issue for me... but all of those imbalances are countered by another influence or area. I prefer to see characters that are really, really good at one thing and have crippling weakness in another, but subguilds and extended subguilds are an opportunity to mitigate those weaknesses.

I think we do need some more time with the new classes to understand the balance issues, but I think some of the combat or stealth skills that the ESG provides can create some combinations that do take some restraint. I personally don't mind having them take 1 or 2 karma. My reasoning is that it is a way to encourage people to invest some thought and planning into their character and the regeneration time encourages them to play it out, even if it isn't exactly what they hoped or the stats are disappointing. If a change were to be made, I would personally condense 2 karma all into 1 karma and leave all the 1 karma ESG alone. It takes a month to regen that one point. I think ESG costing karma is a way for karma players to do something with karma that doesn't involve magick and can still enhance their gaming experience and the setting.

I like the new 3 point karma system. I like regeneration of karma. I don't think this should change.

I've been playing this game for 19 years, and I -still- occasionally die under 5 days played.  Having to play a shit-tier inferior subclass simply because an NPC gith rolled AI strength and first-round double-attack-reel-locked-double-brutal'ed my perfectly well-thought-out character is pretty fucking annoying, honestly.

It's not unplayably annoying, but the slow regen really only encourages people to play half-ass PCs (if they play at all) to kill time until they get to play what they really want to play.

If I didn't have a raft of new classes to explore, I probably wouldn't bother with it...because why?  Why would I pick a subclass Armorcrafter who lacks tanning and haggle, when I can wait a month and play a Master Armorcrafter and get tanning and haggle, which exponentially increase ease of crafting and 'sid generation?

[Samira]

The regular subguilds seem sort of obsolete with the new main classes, and I don't see the value of limiting the number of PCs with extended subguilds.

I would usually pick a subguild to either A) get climb or B) start with a skill that I would branch but didn't want to. To run with Synthesis's example, Armorcrafter used to be useful for merchants because Armor Repair, which used to branch Armor Making, is impossible to skill up, much less branch off of. Now, Armor Repair branches off of Armor Making.

[evilcabbage]

to my knowledge they fixed the armor repair issue before the new classes came out.

[Heade]

Now, Armor Repair branches off of Armor Making.

This isn't true for all classes. For example, Dune Traders still branch armor making from armor repair.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Also have to consider race/esg combos.

[Bogre]

I think it actually predisposes people towards not playing mundanes, too. 2 karma being the same for an ESG vs a magick guild just makes magick that much more appealing.

[Heade]

I think it actually predisposes people towards not playing mundanes, too. 2 karma being the same for an ESG vs a magick guild just makes magick that much more appealing.

YES!

And I would like to see more mundanes. So, so much secret gick. It's more like secret mundanes. Who's REALLY playing a mundane?

[Cind]

Now, Armor Repair branches off of Armor Making.

This isn't true for all classes. For example, Dune Traders still branch armor making from armor repair.

Legacy merchants could expect to automatically branch new crafting skills, the most basic ones first, from anywhere from 3 to 45 RL days played at a time (one time it took me two months to get the first basic ones.) I hope this is still a thing for heavy merchant classes, although I wouldn't know yet. Then the armormaking branching would make a little more sense.

[Vex]

Having to play a shit-tier inferior subclass simply because an NPC gith rolled AI strength and first-round double-attack-reel-locked-double-brutal'ed my perfectly well-thought-out character is pretty fucking annoying, honestly.

I like that, someone actually said it like it is, for a change.

Since the +1 karma subs, are basically just more useful versions of the 0 karma subs, and the 2 karma subs are really pricey, since you can just get a proper magick sub for the same, you could eliminate most of the old subs, downgrade the +1 karma to 0 karma, and the +2 karma to +1.

Everyone gets the "good" regular subs, you can spend one karma for the combat subs, or two or three karma for magick. Imo, that makes a little more sense, than how it is now.

The new class system is great, but it makes the old subs look... pretty bad, tbh.

Except Outlaw.

<3 Outlaw.

[Boogerbear]

Armorcrafter used to be useful for merchants because Armor Repair, which used to branch Armor Making, is impossible to skill up, much less branch off of.

I've done it at least three times, but it was never fun and the all three merchants played in clans with warriors who sparred and tore up their shields a lot.

Having said that, I'd still rather have scan/city listen instead of automatic armor making, but I digress.

In total agreement with what people have said here about keeping karma for magickers/different races, not mundane subguilds.

[boog]

From another viewpoint, since this has been about a lot of combat skeelz: I think some of the karma requirement is to gate off custom crafting. I get that it's a thankless, monotonous, sometimes obnoxious job, having made close to thousands of items and a little less when in terms of crafting numbers, but maybe we should hire builders who have the sole task of completing, editing, or y'know, just doing the crafts/items associated with custom crafting.

[Boogerbear]

From another viewpoint, since this has been about a lot of combat skeelz: I think some of the karma requirement is to gate off custom crafting. I get that it's a thankless, monotonous, sometimes obnoxious job, having made close to thousands of items and a little less when in terms of crafting numbers, but maybe we should hire builders who have the sole task of completing, editing, or y'know, just doing the crafts/items associated with custom crafting.

When Morgenes was still around, I asked for a position like this:  a way to help but not actually be a staff in-game/somehow be insulated from info staff normally gets.  He said it wasn't really possible.

I think a lot of people would like to help but don't want to... know everything that's going on.

[boog]

That's the point of a builder, though. They're there to build rooms or objects. Not crafts, though, which sort of takes away some of their usefulness.

[Boogerbear]

I just sorta assumed builders get access to things like imm's "who," staff forums, and pfiles, which would be enough for me to not want it. But they couldn't do storytelling-like stuff or otherwise interact with the game world.

If that's not the case, well, cool.  But you're right: there's a lot more help that could be used, regardless.

I'd do it if there was a way to completely, totally separate things, but that would probably require more coding.

[boog]

Yeah. I don't imagine it'd be too difficult to restrict things, and even have a low, low, looooow level totem pole person who just did typo fixes and stuff, but I'm not sure of my recall on this, but I'm fairly positive builders don't know who is who, but I can say with certainty that they do not have storyline access.

[650Booger]

they want more mundanes running around.  they want to lower the power curve of the gen pop.  this is my interpretation.  the ESGs are more powerful than the 0 karma SGs.  If all SGs were 0 karma, the old SGs would never be used.  might as well scrap them from the game at that point.

[Vex]

they want more mundanes running around.  they want to lower the power curve of the gen pop.  this is my interpretation.  the ESGs are more powerful than the 0 karma SGs.  If all SGs were 0 karma, the old SGs would never be used.  might as well scrap them from the game at that point.

I don't know anyone, who doesn't just wait for their karma to regenerate, before making a "pc they care about". The only ones who do, make pcs they don't invest in or care about, so they can store or suicide, when they have karma for whatever they REALLY want to do.

It is, as you say. Might as well scrap them. At least then, new players, aren't going to end up feeling like second class players. I guess, according to most self-glorified "vets", they ARE basically second class fodder, so maybe it's all working as intended?

[Armaddict]

Scrap the ESG's if anything.

We've just moved to a class structure that is far more diverse and far more 'skillful'.  ESG's no longer fill the role of granting further customization, they serve to try to min-max things and that's it.

Weaken subclasses to the standard of the normal subclasses, none but magickal are behind a karma wall, and we're in a healthy spot.

[Boogerbear]

they want more mundanes running around.  they want to lower the power curve of the gen pop.  this is my interpretation.  the ESGs are more powerful than the 0 karma SGs.  If all SGs were 0 karma, the old SGs would never be used.  might as well scrap them from the game at that point.

Some of them would be redundant, but the strength of the mundane subguilds could be enhanced to at least get them a little closer to being solid fill-ins for extended subguilds.

Personally, I wouldn't pick gladiator again unless it was a throwaway character.  It's hard for me to picture myself being excited about playing a non-extended-subguild *unless* we're talking about a hybrid crafting class where CC is a viable alternative.

As it stands, I like the CC option.  Even if I can't make a PC as an aggressor/bruiser/etc and be good to go to automatically join the Byn and actively doing stuff, there is still an allure to being able to hypothetically mastercraft.

So, at this point, I feel like I would either go pure-class with custom crafter option or choose an extended subguild.  Fighter might be the one class I'd go with as a mundane sub that gives ride/direction sense...

The last couple of times I played chars with over 20 days having mundane subguilds, well, I just kept thinking, "What if I had waited and picked X extended subguild instead?"  It's a needling thought once you find yourself with a character who's survived a lot.