The Rise of the Metagame

[Dresan]

One time I was walking a tavern and I overheard a couple soldiers talking. One of them said to the other how they have mastered three weapons, and was working on the last. They had a pretty interesting conversation of the value of weapon knowledge and such. I guess it could be considered gamey but you know what, it was totally in character, it completely fit and they were interacting, chatting, giving me something to hear and enjoy.

I can understand some people thinking the GDB has been sounding more gamey, maybe. Thats not a complete bad thing because it allows everyone to contribute to making the game a more enjoyable experience. For example are the Ranger's thread, and the other threads started by staff themselves involving in sub-guilds, it allows more people to contribute thoughts and ideas which is good.

However at the end of the day, I rather see everyone having the same access to information about the game rather than what it was in the past which involved many people sharing OOC information about ever aspect of the game.  Not only with other players but clearly some through their relationships with staff using emails, aim and even OOC gatherings.

Sorry, I  prefer more gamey people than cheating hypocrites... but thats just me.

All that said however, I think more knowledge has made things less gamey, sure there are people still seeking to be the best but thats always been around, the fact they have more knowledge of the game means you are less likely to see someone doing some ridiculous things in hopes of getting there faster.  I think lowering the requirement for branching skills to advance would also help in this regard.

I think in the past the staff rewarded RP efforts more visibly though. Something as simple as RPing exercise would allow you to ask staff to reward you with strength boost. If there is a drive to become good skill-wise its becuase people don't believe they can't get anything done through good old RP.

[James de Monet]

That some of it is being exposed on the forum for a newbie like me to read and learn is only a good thing. I'm not using these skills to "compete" against other players and end their stories unfairly, so why does anyone particularly care?

If you were the only player seeing and using this information, Miradus, people might not have a reason to care, but you aren't, and not everyone using it is using it the same way you (self identify you) are, so they do care.

For the sake of another metaphor, look at it like steroids.  If you go to a normal gym where only one or two dudes are juicing, you can "compete" for a normal level of fitness by just working out.  If you go to a gym where everybody is roided out, though, you are always gonna be a 90 lb. weakling (by comparison) if all you do is lift.

Same in game.  Just because you don't use those twinked skills to kill someone doesn't mean no harm is done.  If I am consigned to always playing characters who look like (and more importantly are treated like) derps because I just spar in the IC morning, and RP or patrol the rest of the day (the old "normal"), that still changes the game for my characters, and for me, and not for the positive.  Does that make sense?

[hopeandsorrow]

That some of it is being exposed on the forum for a newbie like me to read and learn is only a good thing. I'm not using these skills to "compete" against other players and end their stories unfairly, so why does anyone particularly care?

Heh, it becomes like a nuclear arms race.  A lot of folks play the meta game, due to a cold war mentality.  Not that they simply desire skill(master) in everything. 

Whether anyone is actually going to being using it solely in a PvP sense is another story, but considering the massive amount of misgivings one can have about IC actions, it's perfectly understandable.

For me, the metagame shadow looms over everything, so I play accordingly.

It's not outwardly popular to speak in such terms.  But I'm not going to get invested in a low strength combat PC with shit skills knowing full well there are PC's pushing exceptional on the cusp of advance weapons after few weeks of metagaming.  That's the atmosphere it creates (imo) that if ya ain't master + good stats, you ain't ever going to be shit.

Whether its actually true in a RP sense? Doesn't matter, it only takes one instance for some bad blood to brew and everyone is rerolling and racing for combat peak. Whether is to raid folks in the desert or simply to avoid being killed by said raider, the metagame in Armageddon MUD sense, is forever a cold war between players.

It's understand able why folks dislike the metagame, more players are busy chasing the hourly fail then they're actually role playing. I'm guilty of it, and I don't even like it.

But my experience, no matter how narrow, tells me if I don't meta I'm going to find myself on a receiving end of some one who did. 

[hopeandsorrow]

And I haven't even mentioned the shameless amount of guild sniffing people do.

Do you craft? No. Stealthy? No. Hows your combat? Alright. ~spars, does terrible~ GET OUT OF HERE ROGUE GICKER! (The following was hyperbolic... but it isn't unheard of.)

[Lizzie]

What James describes is partly what concerns me about the metagaming. I think people are focusing more on the "how can I win the code" than the "how can I win this scene." Or maybe they're equating "win this scene" with "win the code." It's especially concerning, with regards to new players who haven't experienced the game without the code-win. Those of us who already know the map, the skill list, the everything else, have already gone through the bright-eyed newbie experience. By spreading all this information widely and bringing the meta into the game. the newer players are being deprived of that experience.

Yes, meta happened before, it'll happen no matter what anyone does. But when the new batch of players don't understand why their character telling mine "use a saw to whittle your twig into a dart because saws work best" is jarring and meta and unwanted OOC advice given ICly - it tells me that we've gone overboard in accommodating new players' desire to win, at the expense of roleplaying a scene.

Hint for those who are probably exactly the people who I'm describing, because it's those people who won't get it: a saw is a big tool that is used to cut half-giant-sized logs in half. It's not an appropriate tool to whittle a twig into a dart, even though the code says it's good for wood, and codedly, it will give a benefit. ICly, it makes no sense. ICly, it is a pretty outrageous tool to recommend for the task of whitting twigs.

[RogueGunslinger]

The change is rather insignificant. It's always been like this, just more people know about it now.

[Jingo]

As far as the original concern goes...I've never been kicked out of a clan for "sucking," but then again...I hate sucking, so I usually don't suck.

But, but...if your PC is a useless sack of turds, nobody should feel obligated to pay you coins, give you food, give you water, and give you shelter just because you can speak sirihish, use the Way, and have journeyman cook.  If your PC is legitimately useless IC, they should be treated as such, and that isn't metagamey...it's just fucking common sense.

So, either man up and admit to your boss that you're really only good at stealing shit from backpacks and crafting ropes and baskets, and see if they can find a niche use for you, or suck it up and don't cry when they fire you because they hired you as a hunter and you couldn't skin a chalton if a maxed ranger started the job for you.

I normally like Synthesis' posts, but this one is pretty dumb. There is plenty of room in the game for no-skill characters. Maybe not inside the combat role circlejerk, but there is plenty of roles and plenty of helpful players to support them.

[RogueGunslinger]

Not having skills and being useless are two different things. He's not saying if you don't have skills there's no room for you in the game.

[Jingo]

Thats what I thought at first, but that kind of undercuts his own point. Unless your character is braindead, your character has some useful skills. And yes, just being able to talk and be social is a useful skill in Armageddon.

[Malken]

As long as roleplay is the most important part of the game, I don't really care what people do with the game's code in the privacy of their home.

I like skills, I like rp, sometime I twink more, sometime I twink less, it depends on my mood and the character I play, but when it comes to rp I always give it my all (well, except when I know that the character is rp'ed by Iiyola, then I'm just like, whatev!).

Metagaming has always been a part of Armageddon but maybe it's more "in your face" now because it's 2016 and the spread of information is definitely easier. Don't think there's anything anyone can do about this.

[solera]

I don't care if people want to meta game for whatever reason. I'm just happy if they bring a PC along that has depth and can live a story. However, when I  do see a lot of discussion on skill gains here or there, I worry a bit that newbies will see a culture more akin to RPG games, than role playing a story; that they will, for example, want to learn ooc recipes rather than getting their PC to search for a mentor.
I'm not arguing against transparency, I'm just saying.

Oh well, Malken has said it better, and I type too slow.  

And the trouble with our saws, is that they are closer to being able to saw twigs than logs, if you look at them.

[Harmless]

I don't care if people "metagame" or not, I'm content to play losers in Zalanthan society and that requires absolutely no metagame, so I am usually content and don't miss my PCs's skill lists or stats (though I will miss their interactions and stories and personality..) when they die.

It is also a fun way to play.

This game has plenty of enjoyment for "casual gamers" and stuff for "metagamers" to do also. Maybe metagamers tend to sit on the top of the food chain, maybe it doesn't matter as much as people think. I don't think it's anything to be concerned about: I want people to enjoy the game and keep playing it, I also want people to interact, as long as those two things are true then I am happy.

[Gunnerblaster]

I wouldn't know how to meta-game even if it came up and bit me in the ass. When I first started playing, I equated sparring with 'gitting gud' so I would make my warmonger-types hell bent on sparring but after a year or so - I realized how lame it was and couldn't really build up the energy/dedication to do it.

In regards to others meta-gaming, I suppose it depends. There's always going to be someone whose stronger/faster/smarter than you, just in real life, but no one's invincible. I've seen the low bring down the high, as often as the other way around. That over-confident, twinked out warrior? Yeah, doubt you'll be seeing him for too long. And Staff do keep track of things like those who attempt to game the Hell out of their skills and will spawn an AI critter to remind you not to be so cocky, in the future.

My only issue is when it starts affecting people's choices in how to treat characters - Ie, guild sniffing being one of my largest pet peeves. I can understand a recruiting Noble or Officer wanting to know how well to play you in their group (should you be the guy up front, howling his bloodlust and hacking up stuff, or should you be in back, using a bow and patching up wounded?) - But to drill a player into basically coming out and saying "I'm guild/subguild" is where it bothers me.

[najdorf]

A skill based cap roll and skill anonymity can work pretty well. It can be justified with talent/capacity coming with birth and you can not do anything with it. Not everyone can reach mastery at a skill. I have been practicing chess for years, and I'm capped at a level whereas 10 yo prodigies can reach to grand master levels with ease.

Consider this for warrior: (Max capped)
Bash [80-100] Meaning, someone's cap will be based on a roll at creation, such as 82
Kick [80-100]
Slashing Weapons [80-100]

Also hide the skills again, and there's no way someone would realize they where they are capped at, other than experiencing IG
For subguilds, should be like:
Bash [40-65]
Kick [40-65]

something like that...

[RogueGunslinger]

I just don't want to forsake customization for the sake for variation.

[Nergal]

Metagaming has always been a part of Armageddon but maybe it's more "in your face" now because it's 2016 and the spread of information is definitely easier. Don't think there's anything anyone can do about this.

It's more "in your face" now because there's an entire forum dedicated, at least in part, to discussing the game's "coded secrets" and "skilling up methods" - a lot of which are, as I said, wrong, outdated (or soon to be) or simply coincidental.

Note that I'm not saying that that is good or bad. It's just how it is. IMO, it's the natural progression that was expected from a roleplaying game that doesn't focus on the coded aspects, despite those aspects playing a big part in the roleplay, and a playerbase that seems to largely be full of Achiever-types. It's up to players to decide what to do with that information.

What I find more disturbing is players' willingness to spread IC information about plots OOCly. In order words, abusing the roleplay rather than abusing the code. I don't care about people who abuse the code - mostly, I find it funny to watch and see what certain players think will work when it really is so simple. Spreading plot information actively hurts the game, and ironically it is done often by people who claim to love the game, or at least love what it could be.

[Saellyn]

I've never liked the idea of spreading plot stuff around. Five, six, ten year old stories? Sure. When you start broaching into the, "Hey, Lord Fancysmock is going to be doing this thing, and we should kill him because he'll be here at this time,"

Or,

"Random Commoner #232 is a Sorcerer guys, he nuked me because I found him out but I couldn't get a psi off."

Or even something like,

"Someone told me Joe Kadius's aide is actually a breed".

You're not helping the game. You're not "waving the flag of justice for all to see how misguided these people are or all the favoritism other players get." You're just shitting on a lot of hard work that players have to put into getting these things approved, to get stuff rolling, and at the end of the day you're ruining the thing you claim to love so much.

Just play the game. Or don't. But don't ruin it for other people.

[Malken]

I agree, Nergal - That is indeed the unfortunate side of that ease of spread of information but I still don't think it's anything new or on the rise, just different methods being used. Part of the fun of this game are the IC secrets that come with it, the plots and stories, and I think that most of us understand that and want to keep it that way, no matter how easy or not it would be to spoil it to ourself and others. On the other hand, game mechanics and code? Ehh..

[Asanadas]

It's more "in your face" now because there's an entire forum dedicated, at least in part, to discussing the game's "coded secrets" and "skilling up methods" - a lot of which are, as I said, wrong, outdated (or soon to be) or simply coincidental.

Fantastic. It's about time the basic progression system of this game was hauled out of the 90s by its hair. If everything on the shadowboard about skill progression turns out to be wrong or unnecessary in a year or so, I'll commend that.

[Miradus]

Most of the information I've gotten about how skills work is based off of personal experience and helper chat. Frankly, the forum has been as much of a source of misinformation as actual information.

I grind skills a lot just because of playing the game. I'm not grinding forage, I'm looking for a red-spotted prickle weed. I'm not grinding woodworking, I need some stuff to sell so I can buy some gear. I'm killing this sand koala because it carries water in its third testicle.

All of my skills tend to go up through that sort of play. Knowing about how often you can get an increase, or whether or not this skill works in town or in the wilderness is something that could be included in the help files (and sometimes is).

How about the whole other side of the metagame? I remember with a scavenger finding a secret place with water in it and thinking, "Booyaa, I'm awesome." As I sat there drinking and filling my skins, a whole crowd of people trooped in one at a time to do the same. I thought, "Are all these players scavengers too?"

[Malken]

How about the whole other side of the metagame? I remember with a scavenger finding a secret place with water in it and thinking, "Booyaa, I'm awesome." As I sat there drinking and filling my skins, a whole crowd of people trooped in one at a time to do the same. I thought, "Are all these players scavengers too?"

That's probably because such spots haven't really changed in 15 years and the more you play, the more you know of these spots. It's the rare player that will totally start from scratch and "wipe their memory" of previous geographical knowledge when they start a new character.

It goes both ways, really.. As much as I would love for these "spots" to be moved around once in a blue moon, once they are discovered said information would probably be made public as well - but I think I'd rather reward players who would love new locations like this than just say screw it because I know that this information would be made public the next day.

On the other hand, old crappy code systems like the magick system (at least in my very humble opinion!) just /invites/ you to "cheat" because of how bad it is. I keep saying that I'm never more ashamed of myself than when I play 'gikers, not because of what I do once I get the spells and how I roleplay my characters, but because of what I need to do just to get there (which is also probably why I don't play that many 'gikers to begin with).

[Synthesis]

As far as the original concern goes...I've never been kicked out of a clan for "sucking," but then again...I hate sucking, so I usually don't suck.

But, but...if your PC is a useless sack of turds, nobody should feel obligated to pay you coins, give you food, give you water, and give you shelter just because you can speak sirihish, use the Way, and have journeyman cook.  If your PC is legitimately useless IC, they should be treated as such, and that isn't metagamey...it's just fucking common sense.

So, either man up and admit to your boss that you're really only good at stealing shit from backpacks and crafting ropes and baskets, and see if they can find a niche use for you, or suck it up and don't cry when they fire you because they hired you as a hunter and you couldn't skin a chalton if a maxed ranger started the job for you.

I normally like Synthesis' posts, but this one is pretty dumb. There is plenty of room in the game for no-skill characters. Maybe not inside the combat role circlejerk, but there is plenty of roles and plenty of helpful players to support them.

If someone has hired you to sit at the bar and use say, talk, tell, contact, and psi, you by definition are not useless to your employer.

I never said anything about being useless "to the game."  I was only making a point about the concern of the original poster, which is being fired for sucking AT WHAT YOU WERE HIRED TO DO, which is ENTIRELY O.K.

The only time it might not be O.K. is if two people with the same skillset are hired to do the same thing, and one of them becomes massively better at it due to code knowledge and consequently more-efficient practice, resulting in the less-efficient person being fired.  This is a theoretical concern, from my point of view, because I've never seen it happen.

[fourTwenty]

Most of the information I've gotten about how skills work is based off of personal experience and helper chat. Frankly, the forum has been as much of a source of misinformation as actual information.
How about the whole other side of the metagame? I remember with a scavenger finding a secret place with water in it and thinking, "Booyaa, I'm awesome." As I sat there drinking and filling my skins, a whole crowd of people trooped in one at a time to do the same. I thought, "Are all these players scavengers too?"

No, these are people who can't differentiate between OOC knowledge and IC knowledge and personally I find it disgusting. To me these are the worst type of metagamers. Take a look at Synth's post near the beginning of this thread. That shit is terrible. I personally think people who pass, have passed, use, or admit to using OOC info like that ought to be banned from the game entirely. Fortunately for those people, that's not up to me. It also has nothing to do with not having the hookup. I've had that shit offered to me and I declined. And I've had that shit sent to me and I've deleted it. Hell, much like the above quote I once had a long lived By Sergeant be shown a secret watering hole. I've since had other PCs nearly thirst to death in the exact same spot because ICly they wouldn't know it was there.

Sharing OOC knowledge is going to happen and nothing can be done about it other than permabanning people who are caught or admit to doing it. But that's not going to happen. Its also a disservice to yourself, a large part of the fun in this game is discovering shit you didn't know about. As far as OOC info sharing and carrying over knowledge from PC to PC the only thing we can really hope for is a staff member notices and takes great pleasure in karmacly ass pounding the offender.

As far as metagaming and twinkling your skills. Pfft, go ahead, you obviously haven't been playing long enough. Let me know how it feels when your 4xAI human warrior with completely maxed skills gets roflstomped by a 5 day Mul, a 3 day Krathi, or just happens to piss of the wrong Templar.

[Beethoven]

Wow, that's a bit harsh on people who just want a map or something. I mean at the end of the day it is a game. It's not considered kosher to spread that kind of information OOCly but if that's what it takes for some people to be willing to play, I'm okay with it.

I'm not somebody who knows very much about the gameworld, myself, but there have been times when I wished I had some of that "common knowledge" everyone but me seems to have, not so I could get an advantage, but because it'd be something my character would already know because of his/her background. I think it was my second character who was supposed to have been hunting around Luir's with her father for years, but I didn't know anything about the region, the wildlife, etc. I would have appreciated access to maps or something. Not Big Ancient Magickal Secrets, just knowledge my PC would have gained.

[Asanadas]

You can't really "ban" someone from a game like this, in this day and age; but that's beside the point. I think we need to cherish every player we can get, considering our medium, aside from the ones who are explicitly trolls or OOC harmful.