Food Aging -- Discussion Thread

[BadSkeelz]

Again.  It's a good thing.  It's a bad thing that it's going in while acknowledged as incomplete.  If the rest phases in quickly, it's no big deal and increases the value of 'tasty' versus 'cured', which in turn increases the value of seasonings.  However, in an unfinished state, it is purely chore and inconvenience.

I prefer to look at it as a chance for clanned characters to engage in a little corruption and sell their ready-made free foods on the side.

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You hear a male voice shout from the north, in sirihish,
   "WTS 10 [gristly sausage] for 150 sid and/or BJ"


[Hicksville Hoochie]

Does this affect the food in a rations pack before you unwrap it?

If 'eat' command works on the item, it is food, and will age.

Eat your baby items before they go bad, folks! Child life expectancy just went down to 36 hours!  

Love this change. Love anything that can help foster trade between PCs! I figure this might lead to an awesome shift in the cooking skill to aid in preservation of some food items. (Which means I'm gonna need a mage with a preservation spell, who is a master cook, and can /masterdance in front of Badskeelz.    )

Oops, forgot my actual question! Edit!

Will this potentially lead to any sort of change in tavern food prices, as eating when out on the town will be a bit more valid for some characters now? (And is still kind of crazy expensive)

[Desertman]

This change is so awesome it literally makes my dick hard.

[wizturbo]

This change is so awesome it literally makes my dick hard.

As defacto leader of the "Magick is Awesome" party, I would like spells added to be able to curse people to prevent this from happening, and the reverse.  Thanks.

[nessalin]

Will this potentially lead to any sort of change in tavern food prices, as eating when out on the town will be a bit more valid for some characters now? (And is still kind of crazy expensive)

Ideally, tavern food would be cheaper, but also short lived.  The kind of food you would buy, consume, move on.  Not stick in a bag for later.

Rather like McDonald's.  While some people DO put big macs in a bag to be eaten hours, if not days, later - it's not safe.

Compared to buying granola bars at 7-11, which cost more per calorie, have more mass per calorie, etc...their shelf life is such that you could stock up on them.

[manipura]

If I'm a Zalanthan hunter and my cooking is so shitty that I burn more than I cook, I might end up in a position where I've saved up my last fifty coins to buy a steak from a tavern.
If I'm full and there's still one bite of my fifty sid steak left, I'm -absolutely- wrapping up that last bite and sticking it in a bag for later.

I am curious why this code is going in when it's not quite finished? 
For twenty years food in Arm hasn't spoiled, is there a reason that the spoilage code went in this week as opposed to in a couple weeks when the details are all worked out regarding different spoilage times for different types of food?

All I can think of is that having the code go live as it is right now is a half-decent way to 'clean up' a lot of the stockpiles of unused food sitting around the world.

[rodic]

For those of you worried about Newbies and eating...

I'm far from an accomplish player but the nature of food that lasted forever would literally force me to junk or buy an actual apartment to keep hordes of vulture meat.  First thing as a newbie I learned was how to feed myself and it wasn't a particular challenge or maintenance at all.  

I wasn't even actively hunting vultures, don't even get me started on large bags full of scrab heads.

This is a perfect chance to roll up a street hawker selling food on the cheap.  I hope some one runs with it.  Nothing makes my indie hunter heart flutter like an Indie PC merchant to sell my stuff too.  One of the challenges of indie hunting is actually making a living off your hunting.  Shops fill up quick, npcs run out of coin, you're always battling time to sell your stuff.  Finding an newish indie merchant with the coin to buy, and the need of lower quality hides/chitin is a wonderful thing.  Now we can add food to that list, if enough of us also actively buy food from said PC merchants... Well sounds fun.  Maybe the a rise of a new Merchant House?

It be nice to for once, make an actual living out of hunting as oppose to supplementing my income via grebbing/mining.  Which always seemed silly that salting and mining was way more viable then... bringing in food.

[nessalin]

If I'm a Zalanthan hunter and my cooking is so shitty that I burn more than I cook, I might end up in a position where I've saved up my last fifty coins to buy a steak from a tavern.
If I'm full and there's still one bite of my fifty sid steak left, I'm -absolutely- wrapping up that last bite and sticking it in a bag for later.

And you're welcome to, but it won't last forever and you'd have been better off spending your coins on something that would last longer, but provide less sustenance for it's cost and weight.

I am curious why this code is going in when it's not quite finished? 
For twenty years food in Arm hasn't spoiled, is there a reason that the spoilage code went in this week as opposed to in a couple weeks when the details are all worked out regarding different spoilage times for different types of food?

The idea that any code is 'finished' is at odds with how things actually work.  Combat code isn't 'finished'.  Magick code isn't 'finished'.  In all areas of the game there are values we do not use, code we haven't completed.  Quarantined off from players, commented out, or otherwise rendered unusable.

There has been code, and values for the code to use on food items, for code aging laying around for ... well over a decade.  We've taken a run at this before with dmpls, javascripts, special procs, and even staff manually going around removing food, sometimes replacing it with rotted items.

Why now? Why not?

All I can think of is that having the code go live as it is right now is a half-decent way to 'clean up' a lot of the stockpiles of unused food sitting around the world.

That's absolutely one of the many reasons, yes.  Increasing interaction between players. Give value to non-magick/psi/combat skills so the game isn't entirely about how fast you can kill the other guy.  That clans aren't only about how good their warriors are.  Creating class distinction with what kind of food you eat.  Giving players another value to noodle over on what to buy, and when.  The list goes on.

[whitt]

This change is so awesome it literally makes my dick hard.

If this lasts for more than five hours, you should see a doctor...  Or a vivaduan.

[Majikal]

This change is so awesome it literally makes my dick hard.

Said it best.

No more bins of 700 food products, some people might actually have to hunt down their first meal for the purpose of not starving. I dig it. I've seen a few people mastercraft some cool meals for travelers, dried biscuit, jerkies etc, which eventually are going to be doubly awesome. I'm so stoked about this.

I'm all for limiting clan cooks or putting in some kind of system where they don't just shit out endless food next. Kadian hunters would finally be able to stop just hunting silk lizards.

[Vwest]

Is there any chance we can get some adjustment on cooking failure rate?

I tend to keep a lot of food around my characters places because even with upper advanced cooking and the proper cooking tools, a grill, etc, I still have about a 50-70% failure rate on almost all cooking crafts. If food isn't going to keep and we're prone to rampant failures, I see this becoming a major chore, rather than an interesting feature.

Are we going to see NPC food machines for non-noble clan members removed? Because without a vastly increased market to unload meat on, we're going to see a lot more people junking food or food being left to rot in huge piles all over the place, much like we did around in the north back when Tuluk was still open. The unreasonable amount of meat left to waste there was a much more glaring immersion breaker than food lasting a long time, considering food and water are thematically supposed to be rare and valuable.

I can pretty much assure you no one is going to buy meat from NPCs because food prices in the south are universally very, very high (though thematically accurate), far beyond the relatively meager spending power of most city-locked characters. How often do you really see someone buying a steak in the Gaj, or a plate of food at Reds?

It seems like, at least in it's current iteration, this is going to inflict tedium on independents without opening any new avenues for sales, since the would-be primary buyers (merchant / noble clans) all have unlimited free food from NPCs.

The chalton population is really going to take this change on the chin.

[wizturbo]

That's absolutely one of the many reasons, yes.  Increasing interaction between players. Give value to non-magick/psi/combat skills so the game isn't entirely about how fast you can kill the other guy.  That clans aren't only about how good their warriors are.  Creating class distinction with what kind of food you eat.  Giving players another value to noodle over on what to buy, and when.  The list goes on.

Great reasons to implement it now.  I don't care if everything you have in your ultimate vision isn't ready yet, this incremental change is a big win and it will only get better as you refine things further.

[rodic]

The chalton population is really going to take this change on the chin.

Six legged fucks deserve it.

As I stated, this change only needs a couple of indies run wild with it.  Selling cheap food below the value of the Grocer other merchants would be great.  If some newbie is struggling to get food... oh man lines of credit for food?  Dude... next character might be a merchant... cause why not?

[Drayab]

I love it.

[Tisiphone]

A few suggestions:

• Turn this code off in rooms with the IMMORTAL flag, so as to make it easier on you guys. (I assume you use this, since it's stock DIKU.)
• Create more sources of food that aren't meat (e.g fruit bushes), since meat is by far the easiest food to acquire without the forage skill.
• Make sure that food items that grow on plants don't spoil before they're gathered. There are still some plants that use the old container system (because they give more than one product), there are some plants that are actually NPCs, and I don't know how the new 'pick fruit plant' system works as far as loading objects.
• Look into giving some races higher or lower tolerance to spoilage, once spoilage effects are present.
• Again, once spoilage effects are present, keep spoiled food around longer.
• Let appropriate seasonings reduce some of the effects of minor spoilage.
• Make food stored in indoor and/or dark or shadowed rooms last longer than food stored outside where the sun can hit it.

[Asanadas]

I got caught up in the same thoughts when the bank changes were first rolled out: "Why release this when it's unfinished^tm?"

And then the second wave of the bank changes came along, which fixed the issues raised by the implementation. Sometimes you need to see a change in action before it can be fixed properly.

I think this is a cool idea, and it'll be easy enough to weather food evaporating until the further refinement of the system comes along soon.

[Brytta Léofa]

This is a great move.

I think food in rooms should age at a different rate than food on your person.  36 hours played is 20+ play sessions for me; contrariwise, I often don't log in twice in a 36-hour period.  Mine is an extreme example, but I think they should be balanced to feel closer to the same.  Something like 1.5 hours played : 5 RL days on the clock gut-checks about right for me.

[Majikal]

All these changes that have gone towards making Zalanthas feel like a living breathing thing. I feel like the game has had more awesome changes in the last two years than the 12 prior. You guys are kickin ass up there.

[lostinspace]

Does this get reset by cooking? If I have a piece of meat and sit on it for 2.5 days then cook it into a delicious steak is the shelf life of that steak .5 days or 3 days?

Also now I really want to make a character that can master-craft Pemmican.

[nessalin]

Does this get reset by cooking? If I have a piece of meat and sit on it for 2.5 days then cook it into a delicious steak is the shelf life of that steak .5 days or 3 days?

Yes, as speculated previously, crafting creates an entirely new item, so crafting 'a spoiled hunk of pony-meat' into 'a cooked pony-burger' will reset the timer on it 192 games hours / 36 RL hours.

[Armaddict]

And then the second wave of the bank changes came along, which fixed the issues raised by the implementation. Sometimes you need to see a change in action before it can be fixed properly.

Assuming it's short term adjustments, then I agree. If adding these flags to cured/smoked recipes and other methods is an easy week of coding, then I agree.  But the way this is phrased thusfar makes it sound like this will be its state for awhile while the rest of the coding gets done (or is delayed).

I do -not- want to sound like I'm unhappy with the finished product, I think it's a very huge step.  I only think that the release of the step wasn't ready yet, is all, and am not sure why it was pushed out when acknowledged to be in that unfinished state.  The comparison of it to combat code and magick code, things that have required constant balance and tweaking and readjustments based on discussion and changes and complaints of how hard it is to change, is not exactly encouraging, so I'm hoping that those were just the very hyperbolic parallels that they seemed to be.  This seems like a fairly straightforward coding project that, when finished, will not require much looking back on.

I wholeheartedly endorse the idea.  Just not incompletes.  It's about the procedural side of it, not the idea itself.

To join on the positivity, though, since I have not voiced it, I've had hunters use the cured food for a long time, as 'riding food', stashed away until it was time to ride.  I'm anticipating that becoming a common practice and mark of the survivalist, which should be -sweet-.  Likewise, noble-food, and merchant-food...I hope to see different societal subtleties with this naturally coming around.  Plus...you know... this was listed as a major thing in the economy thread from awhile back, and I appreciate it being worked on.  There's been a lot of changes that seem to have come off of feedback, of late.

[LauraMars]

Even incomplete, this change is one of the best changes to the game in a long time. I'd be fine with it if you stopped right here. (but don't stop right here if you've got more features to roll out plz seriously though ilu this so cool)

[James de Monet]

Ooh, you made broils spoil, Ness!

Broils spoil? You made every mess a guess, Ness!



So excite!

[manipura]

If I'm a Zalanthan hunter and my cooking is so shitty that I burn more than I cook, I might end up in a position where I've saved up my last fifty coins to buy a steak from a tavern.
If I'm full and there's still one bite of my fifty sid steak left, I'm -absolutely- wrapping up that last bite and sticking it in a bag for later.

And you're welcome to, but it won't last forever and you'd have been better off spending your coins on something that would last longer, but provide less sustenance for it's cost and weight.

You know, I was really just making a bit of a tongue-in-cheek comment regarding the scarcity of good food for a lot of Zalanthans.  
I wasn't implying my last nibble of steak should last forever and I wasn't implying that it was the best use of coins.  I was responding to...

Ideally, tavern food would be cheaper, but also short lived.  The kind of food you would buy, consume, move on.  Not stick in a bag for later.

...which implies that taking your leftovers with you is the wrong way to go about things.


As for all the rest, I was just curious.  Not everyone is a coder of some kind who has any idea at all how it works.
Some of us actually don't know anything about coding stuff and don't know if there would be specific, logical reasons to put changes like this out in phases as opposed to all at once.  
Which is why I went ahead and asked.

Edit: Hopefully this change will be incentive for those people who habitually order food from PCs and then brush them off for game weeks on end to actually take five minutes to pick up their orders.

[LauraMars]

You have three days before the food spoils. Then cook it and you have another three days on top of that?

Don't forget it's 3RL days of logged in time. 

While it's 3 days of RL time

Not sure where people are getting the "3 RL days!" number.  It's 36 hours. That's 1.5 real life days.