Armor Materials Now Completed -- Discussion Thread

[Taijan]

Lizzie's post had me thinking the same thing, actually.  IF we were going to have weapons noticeably degrade in condition and eventually get to the point where they were broken and no longer repairable, it'd be neat if destruction didn't make the weapon disappear completely. That way a fighter could keep trying to fend off blows or win a fight with an implement that's now far less usable, but still a step above being barehanded.

However, a big issue I see is that there are many different ways a weapon can break.  Hmm...

[Clearsighted]

Lizzie's post had me thinking the same thing, actually.  IF we were going to have weapons noticeably degrade in condition and eventually get to the point where they were broken and no longer repairable, it'd be neat if destruction didn't make the weapon disappear completely. That way a fighter could keep trying to fend off blows or win a fight with an implement that's now far less usable, but still a step above being barehanded.

However, a big issue I see is that there are many different ways a weapon can break.  Hmm...

I agree! I'd like to see weapons go to notched/dented/bent, etc, before shattering, and have a weapon repair skill or a weapon repair NPC. I bet that'd be big business in Zalanthas.

[Synthesis]

Lizzie's post had me thinking the same thing, actually.  IF we were going to have weapons noticeably degrade in condition and eventually get to the point where they were broken and no longer repairable, it'd be neat if destruction didn't make the weapon disappear completely. That way a fighter could keep trying to fend off blows or win a fight with an implement that's now far less usable, but still a step above being barehanded.

However, a big issue I see is that there are many different ways a weapon can break.  Hmm...

I agree! I'd like to see weapons go to notched/dented/bent, etc, before shattering, and have a weapon repair skill or a weapon repair NPC. I bet that'd be big business in Zalanthas.

<primary hand> a bent turquoise-braided leather whip
<secondary hand> a notched notched bone knife

[BadSkeelz]

Chipped, notched, cracked, broken. Leave the details of how it's broken to the PCs.  I don't think there's a lot of weapons in Zalanthas that could realistically bend.

[Synthesis]

While we're on this kick, we could unfuck the archery code so that arrows don't magically disappear into thin air on impact.

[Culinary Critic]

I love this! Simply love it and good job staff!

Three days away, don't even have to write my own responses.  Great job, love the realism.  Every day it gets a little harder...just like it's supposed to be!

[Mazy]

I love this! Simply love it and good job staff!

Three days away, don't even have to write my own responses.  Great job, love the realism.  Every day it gets a little harder...just like it's supposed to be!

Have to chime in and also say I really like these changes, too, and I feel like everything is moving in the right direction!

[IntuitiveApathy]

What I'm really hoping for is that this is a step towards reviewing armor values and letting us anticipate a piece of armor's effectiveness, rather than having to find out through trail and error if your 20-line mastercraft helm is as good as the one with a 10 word description.

I really want this for all armors, weapons and tools if you have the appropriate skill to evaluate the item's effectiveness.  I'd much rather have it be a comparison command though.  Compare two pieces of armor, or weapons, and see the relative differences.  

Love the update!

Also, comparison yes pless:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48611.0.html

[Taijan]

I'm personally against a command that compares two like items on the basis that such knowledge comes from experience and not just a command that tells you what one is better for.

I place a lot of value in consistency though.  Ideally, if you have a good idea of how a plain bone longsword performs in combat, you won't run into scenarios where an identical sword with a purple dragon painted on the sword performs exponentially better - or to use an example I saw somewhat recently, you won't find daggers that are as strong as greatswords.

(PS.  I've been looking.  The data doesn't support that claim.)

[IntuitiveApathy]

I'm personally against a command that compares two like items on the basis that such knowledge comes from experience and not just a command that tells you what one is better for.

I think that's a good idea too Taijan.  This was my suggestion about that:

Optionally to refine the "compare" skill beyond a boolean success, and to avoid limiting it to only a specific class or classes which would undermine the point of implementing it in the first place, you could have it interact with the expertise of the character doing the comparing as well. So if the character was a master at slashing weapons, or a master weaponsmith, their prediction would be more accurate as to just how good that sword is compared to another, compared to a novice's assessment. In addition, or in the alternative, you could also restrict the compare skill to only work for those who have a coded skill related to the item, or have attained a certain skill level. I'd assume the latter would be a whole lot of work though, to add these sort of inter-relations to the huge amount of items in-game. Still, either of these refinements might go some ways toward mitigating some of the downsides, while still retaining the ideal utility for the skill.

[Taijan]

I see what you're saying, IntuitiveApathy.  You didn't respond to the second part of my post though 

If, through sheer experience, you notice a common trend of how weapons of a certain make and material perform and then find that similar items perform in much the same way, but different materials or weapons styles consistently behave in a similar manner, would adding such a command be necessary?  Or largely superfluous?  My gut feeling leans towards superfluous.  And it removes situations where someone can go out and test various weapons to get a good idea of how they perform.

[Alesan]

I didn't know people could actually tell a difference between armor items. I sure never could. I can tell when I'm wearing armor, but they all seem the same to me.

[Ath]

Read the description.  If one piece of armor sounds better than another, it likely is going to be better.  If it sounds ragged and falling apart, well, it probably isn't as good as something that is well crafted and designed.  Also material is taken in account.  Scrab shell is weaker than Horror shell for example.

[Synthesis]

I didn't know people could actually tell a difference between armor items. I sure never could. I can tell when I'm wearing armor, but they all seem the same to me.

To get good comparison data, you have to fight the same critter or spar the same PC over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over....But yes, armor does "work" if you have the strength to wear it without being encumbered.

[Alesan]

Read the description.  If one piece of armor sounds better than another, it likely is going to be better.  If it sounds ragged and falling apart, well, it probably isn't as good as something that is well crafted and designed.  Also material is taken in account.  Scrab shell is weaker than Horror shell for example.

Oh, sure. Some sound better than others. But I've never really been able to tell while using them.

[Ath]

Read the description.  If one piece of armor sounds better than another, it likely is going to be better.  If it sounds ragged and falling apart, well, it probably isn't as good as something that is well crafted and designed.  Also material is taken in account.  Scrab shell is weaker than Horror shell for example.

Oh, sure. Some sound better than others. But I've never really been able to tell while using them.

Mmm...  I guess I would look at that in the IC sense of... is this armor helping me not get damaged as much?  Is this armor soaking full his (bouncing off) more than it did before?  I mean, you have to think of it in the literal sense of the character to be honest.  Some character may care more that it looks better or looks cool.

[wizturbo]

Read the description.  If one piece of armor sounds better than another, it likely is going to be better.  If it sounds ragged and falling apart, well, it probably isn't as good as something that is well crafted and designed.  Also material is taken in account.  Scrab shell is weaker than Horror shell for example.

But is some rare beast's shell stronger than silt horror?  What's the protective differences of one finely crafted horror shell platemail versus another finely crafted platemail but of a different design?  We have no way of telling that at the moment except for the "and over and over and over and over' method.  Of course there are also trade offs.  Maybe that rare chitin shell is exactly the same strength as horror...but, it weighs less!  Which makes it great for characters without as much strength.  Or, maybe the reverse is true, and it protects the same but weighs more...we have no way at all of knowing that right now, where any Zalanthian with a brain could easily test these things.  In fact could probably estimate it pretty accurately just by handling it or looking at it....except sometimes these things cannot be easily conveyed with a half paragraph item description.

[CodeMaster]

Or, maybe the reverse is true, and it protects the same but weighs more...we have no way at all of knowing that right now, where any Zalanthian with a brain could easily test these things.  In fact could probably estimate it pretty accurately just by handling it or looking at it....except sometimes these things cannot be easily conveyed with a half paragraph item description.

If I gave you two motorcycle jackets, could you tell me which one was going to save more of your skin?    Two bicycle helmets?  If I gave you two kitchen knives, could you tell me which one was going to hold an edge longer?  I agree the difference should be clear in some cases (cloth vs. leather vs. plate) but not others.

It's true you have to test these things over and over and over again to know, but... aren't you sparring over and over and over again anyway?

Because it's such a big playtime investment, though, it would be cool if staff somehow let a character know that his favorite broadsword had had its stats changed, if it comes up.

[BadSkeelz]

Matters aren't helped by the fact that only a select few individuals in the known can semi-accurately and consistently tell by feel the difference between a 1 stone and a 5 stone weight.

[wizturbo]

If I gave you two motorcycle jackets, could you tell me which one was going to save more of your skin?    Two bicycle helmets?  If I gave you two kitchen knives, could you tell me which one was going to hold an edge longer?  I agree the difference should be clear in some cases (cloth vs. leather vs. plate) but not others.

Yes, I could estimate this, and I know nothing at all about motorcycle jackets, or bike helmets.  I might be wrong with my estimate, but I promise you an expert at motorcycle jackets will be able to estimate it MUCH more reliably.  I'm not suggesting this be something anyone can know, I'm suggesting it be a skill, or part of an existing skill more likely.  


I could test the kitchen knives by chopping up some things over the course of a few RL hours, and compare the edges afterwards.  I could take a knife and stab at a piece of shell, and see which knife pierces it better, when I exert about the same amount of force...  anyone could do this, but it's not possible to do in Armageddon because of code constraints.

Here's an example of in-game descriptions, tell me which one of these provides more protection using just the description...

Code Select Expand


A pair of black chitin arm guards - x weight in stones

A stiff leather base has been used to form these arm-guards, a series of
sturdy leather ties allowing them to be adjusted to fit the width of almost
any arm.  Jointed at the elbow, they provide a good deal of protection
without compromising too much freedom of movement.  Deep black beetle shell
plates have been affixed to the upper and lower parts of each section.  


Code Select Expand


a pair of black, bone scalemail arm-guards - x + 3 weight in stones

A pair of leather sleeves has been covered with a series of bone scales
to construct these armguards. The bone scales have been blackened by intense
heat. The sleeves seem very durable and provide a thick layer of protection
for the wearer.


Both armors contain leather, with stronger materials covering the leather.  One is black beetle chitin, the other is fire-blackened bone.   Both sound pretty protective to me, but I have absolutely no idea which provides more protection.  I'd lean towards the bone, because it weighs more, and doesn't say anything about mobility, and I assume that mobility comes at the cost of protection...but that's not true of modern armor.  Articulated plate armor was very maneuverable, and extremely protective...  In fact, the chitin armor's references to being adjustable, and allowing freedom of movement make it sound more protective, even though it's much lighter.  So which is true in this case?  The lighter, more maneuverable chitin, or the heavier blackened bone?

I look at the help files, and find this "Bone is also used in many pieces of armor, providing resilient yet only moderately heavy protection (in terms of encumbrance)" in regards to bone, and for chitin I get this "Chitin is very durable and, if crafted well, can hold a reasonably sharp edge.....  In its natural form, chitin is armor, and so it should be no surprise that it can be made into a wide range of pieces to be worn by humanoids."

The helpfiles don't really resolve my questions above...  so, I really have no idea which provides more protection.  And this is just the first items I saw that i could make a comparison with, I have these same questions literally every single time I shop for armor or weapons, unless there's one item with a description that definitively makes it sound better than other options...which is pretty rare.

[Alesan]

I also don't want to do hours of number crunching just to find out that x-shell armor protects about .2 DPS more damage than x-bone armor. Some people get their rocks off by doing this, but I don't. I'm not really advocating a compare skill, really, but I do feel like armor is just a guessing game 90% of the time.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I see what you're saying, IntuitiveApathy.  You didn't respond to the second part of my post though 

If, through sheer experience, you notice a common trend of how weapons of a certain make and material perform and then find that similar items perform in much the same way, but different materials or weapons styles consistently behave in a similar manner, would adding such a command be necessary?  Or largely superfluous?  My gut feeling leans towards superfluous.  And it removes situations where someone can go out and test various weapons to get a good idea of how they perform.

I'm sure we all would like to see more consistency across existing (and future) game items - it sounds like you guys are working on trying to do that for the gear in the game, and given how many items there are and how massive a project it must be, whoever's working on that deserves kudos!

I don't feel that a compare command would be superfluous though, even once item consistency is achieved.  If the argument is that once you the player have an idea on an OOC level of how two items compare that you wouldn't need the command at all later since you the player already know and thus that should translate into your imparting and playing with that knowledge IC'ly, then should we be taking out the value command for being superfluous as well?  I feel it operates similarly (you just need to use the value command on each item to compare their values), so the same arguments should apply.  Does having the value command remove situations where someone can just bring an item to a shop to see how much a shopkeeper will buy it for?  Should we be taking information out of the assess -v (person) command since a target's sdesc/mdesc/etc should describe them enough that we shouldn't need an informational command to compare?

Some others have pointed out sometimes the only way to really know the differences in between items is to test them ad-infinitum - the RNG and lack of concrete knowledge of how pieces of the code work together is difficult to compensate for in order to get to a state where one can be confident in their comparison assessment.  I've been playing this game for many years now, and I really couldn't tell you what gear is better in various ways than others, except in the most general terms.  I've not had the opportunity to even use 3/4 or possibly even 9/10 of the gear in the stores to even make a comparative analysis, yet my character once experienced, probably should be able to, and my lack of knowledge on an OOC level shouldn't be a barrier to that.  Even with pieces of gear that my characters have used, I'm still not sure I could tell you which ones are strictly better.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be flippant or contrarian - it's just that I really feel the benefits of a compare command done right would outweigh the negatives.

[Nyr]

Matters aren't helped by the fact that only a select few individuals in the known can semi-accurately and consistently tell by feel the difference between a 1 stone and a 5 stone weight.

Actually...

[FantasyWriter]

Markets should all have scale NPCs that weigh items for a fee.

[Dresan]

I'd pay good money to an NPC to weigh stuff for me. And even more sid to a merchant PC if they could compare and tell me which overpriced, overweight piece of armor/weapon was better than the other. I would also love to be able to analyze a piece of gear/weapon/tool and have it tell me if it will assist(boost) me in some skill i might have by using, holding or wearing it.


I know staff sometimes think these things are obvious due to description, but at the end of the day its still guess work unless you've seen the code. For example, some things I've felt that should provide boosts to certain abilities based on their descriptions, really don't.