Armor Materials Now Completed -- Discussion Thread

[Nyr]

Put a repairer in RS.

Done

Thanks to the non-Bizzaro Superman Superwoman!



I did some more checking into code notes just to confirm on some of the claims here.

Confirmed that skill improvements appear to have been put in by Morgenes in April 2011, as up until then, there were no skill checks or gains for that code:
http://www.armageddon.org/updates/index.php?week=14&year=2011

It will check to see if you have the skill to repair it, then if you do, you will attempt to repair it.  How much it gets repaired is dependent on skill level.  

I also confirmed that the critical failure bug appears to have been fixed by Dakurus in November 2011.

Has anyone used it more recently than November 2011 that can shed some light on it?

[wizturbo]

Put a repairer in RS.

Done

Wow....that was like...the fastest implementation of something ever.  *blinks*

Today has been one big surprise of awesome changes.  It's like Gjallarhorn give away, but for Armageddon.

[FantasyWriter]

Put a repairer in RS.

Done

[Centurion]

This is an awesome change. Kudos!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

So exceptional.

[Vox]

Put a repairer in RS.

Done

YES! Thank you! 

[Pale Horse]

Put a repairer in RS.

Done

Thanks to the non-Bizzaro Superman Superwoman!



I did some more checking into code notes just to confirm on some of the claims here.

Confirmed that skill improvements appear to have been put in by Morgenes in April 2011, as up until then, there were no skill checks or gains for that code:
http://www.armageddon.org/updates/index.php?week=14&year=2011

It will check to see if you have the skill to repair it, then if you do, you will attempt to repair it.  How much it gets repaired is dependent on skill level.  

I also confirmed that the critical failure bug appears to have been fixed by Dakurus in November 2011.

Has anyone used it more recently than November 2011 that can shed some light on it?

I've had a character which used the skill, post 2011.  Personal experience tells me that: it takes too long to get competent, hoarding gith gear to batter apart or patch up so many times you may as well have generated a whole new object with how often you've broken and repaired it, and even a master level crafter still breaks stuff at an absurd rate.

So, really, the same complaints everyone has for every crafting skill at one time or another

In seriousness, I cannot really say the skill is any more "broken" than any of the other crafting skills.  There are limitations to how the code implements things and how things are set up to operate on ArmageddonMUD.  With the right tools and in the right environment, with a good amount of skill, you can count on successfully repairing an object 3 out of every 4 attempts.  This does give particularly trashed bits of armor a 25% chance of being destroyed on the first attempt, but in those situations I'd probably tell the customer up front that their stuff's so far gone that I couldn't guarantee I'd be able to save it.

My only real complaint is trying to decipher between when to use a "skin" and when to use a "hide" to repair a piece of armor.  The descriptions of many things used IG for crafting quite often get confusing as to when they're skin, hide, tanned or raw.  "Looking" at the object sometimes helps, but when you can cut them up into smaller pieces, things really start getting frustrating.

[Ender]

Nyr, armor repair has been the -other- redheaded stepchild, the brew stepchild's younger brother, for almost as long. It isn't cost efficient to be a repairer, and can only be improved through twinkery, unless you want to pay way too much for the privilege.

My biggest issue with armor repair is where it falls on the economy of skill progression.

Skills in Armageddon have a weird economy of their own which governs how easy or difficult it is to progress in them.

Skills that are the easiest to gain in are skills that do not require a target, special circumstances, materials to work, or net serious consequences from a failure.

Repair armor requires a special circumstance (damaged armor), materials to work (appropriate material type), and has consequences from a failure (armor degrading).  This makes it a much harder skill to progress in than normal crafting skills.  I'd put it around the same place as bandage in difficulty to progress in if you're using it in a realistic and non-twinky way, such as paying people to get you gith gear.

The way I'd see to fix repair armor and put it more in line with other crafting skills is to add craftables to the skill like was done with Brew.  Like taking bits of leather to make a longer strip of leather that's meant for repairing leather armor, etc.

[Delirium]

It's easier and often less expensive to buy new armor than it is to repair it.

This might be a semantic argument, but this isn't necessarily something that needs fixing (if it isn't the way you'd prefer it to be, it isn't broken, you just dislike it). If one has resources but not money, one can repair armor more easily than one can replace them with new pieces.  If one has money but not resources, one can buy new things more easily than one can repair them.  Each PC's (and each clan's) case might be different, of course.  Tribals and the like can repair things because money has little direct value to them except when engaging with outsiders.  If instead you are in a clan that is flush with cash (nobility, GMH groups, etc.) it might be easier to just buy your guards a new set of gear each week!  

I'd suggest a staff member play with the skill as its almost definitely easier on your end to do that than me try to sit and explain everything that's wrong with it.

Not exactly. If you already know what is broken, you can tell us where to look in the code, or what to attempt to replicate.  What Delusion offered was pretty helpful and is something that can help isolate a problem if it is still there.  I can take that and pass it to a coder, and they can look at that exact part of the armor repair code to see if the math works out to create that exact situation (which keeps me and non-coder staff from flailing around trying to get a critical fail, and which also keeps us from creating test characters to try and skill up armor repair to confirm whether or not it will improve).  

You seem to be familiar with the code in question, at least.  Do you have something to add to that?  Can you confirm whether or not you've seen that behavior more recently than Delusion?

That's just, like, your opinion, man...

Having to use an entire length of sandcloth to repair a shitty gith surmac is ridiculous. Scraps of cloth should work for that. It's also not always very clear what you need to use to repair something with, and I doubt you can do as quick or efficient a job as just dropping it off at the Salarri armor repair station and calling it a day while you wait for them to fix it all perfect in 2 in-game hours.

As for the rest it's been so cost-prohibitive to experiment that I haven't been able to do so recently.

That's why I suggested staff make test characters, it didn't really seem like a difficult concept - it's obvious right off the bat that the repair skill is pretty inefficient and it'd be easier for staff to have the resources to continually experiment with it and know the guts of the way the code is working and make more informed decisions.

I was also on my phone so I'm sorry I couldn't be more detailed.

[CodeMaster]

It would be interesting if you couldn't wear armor after it got down to a certain degree of wear and tear (not destroyed, but worn out -- like a strap broken or something).  That would motivate having someone along to do a 'field job' of repairing your helmet or breastplate so you could keep wearing it.

[edit: and it would be nice of the shittiest scraps of leather and cloth could be used to repair armor *just* back to the wearable threshold, if that's not the case already]

[Erythil]

I second everything said earlier in the thread about armor repair being a busted skill.  My problem with it in particular was the skill never raising, no matter how much armor I repaired or failed to repair.

I wonder if there couldn't be some kind of job somewhere, in the vein of salting, where you can do piece-work in a shop with busted pieces of armor, to avoid the ooc nonsense of having to send someone out to go kill gith and bring you their busted armor.

[Cabooze]

Since armorcrafting is so insanely difficult to branch in the first place because of how it works with armor repair, just make it so that you branch armorcrafting and repair at the same time. please.

[Eurynomos]

Bwahaha.

[Harmless]

...In the same month that staff adds a tax bracket just for people with >2,000 coins in their account, a new mechanism for adding costs to maintaining gear... I am pretty damn sure that the staff and devs are adding/changing features in the RIGHT DIRECTION! WOO!

...However it does concern me a bit to hear that even at high levels of skill, there is a chance to destroy items with PC repair work. This is concerning to me. After all, Salarr repairers have a 100% success rate.

I would like that addressed if possible, and/or changing the salarri repairers to make them more expensive or have a chance at being much more expensive, or perhaps, more realistically, taking MUCH MUCH LONGER than a few hours.

When I took my boots to a cobbler last time to get the bottoms replaced, it took him maybe a whole day or two. I say to balance things out, a.) make master repairer PCs more reliable, such as by having tools that give a boost to the repair skill, and b.) make NPC repairers take MUCH MUCH MUCH longer to do the job, like 1+ days minimum, to reflect the large number of repair jobs they have to do every day.

[Mazy]

...In the same month that staff adds a tax bracket just for people with >2,000 coins in their account, a new mechanism for adding costs to maintaining gear... I am pretty damn sure that the staff and devs are adding/changing features in the RIGHT DIRECTION! WOO!

...However it does concern me a bit to hear that even at high levels of skill, there is a chance to destroy items with PC repair work. This is concerning to me. After all, Salarr repairers have a 100% success rate.

I would like that addressed if possible, and/or changing the salarri repairers to make them more expensive or have a chance at being much more expensive, or perhaps, more realistically, taking MUCH MUCH LONGER than a few hours.

When I took my boots to a cobbler last time to get the bottoms replaced, it took him maybe a whole day or two. I say to balance things out, a.) make master repairer PCs more reliable, such as by having tools that give a boost to the repair skill, and b.) make NPC repairers take MUCH MUCH MUCH longer to do the job, like 1+ days minimum, to reflect the large number of repair jobs they have to do every day.

I'm all for everything that was said by Harmless.

A simple change that could be done would be increasing the base charge for any individual item/armor. I've had used and cracked neckguards/bracers only cost 14 coins or something ridiculously cheap.

It's possible you could up the price and add a 100 coin extra service fee to all existing resize and repairs, and increase it all to take at least an in game day. However, that is kicking dwarves and half-giants who need to resize everything anyways. I suppose this still isn't entirely unrealistic or against the theme.

If you want the best sort of repairs/resizing, you're going to have to pay good for them.

[bcw81]

warriors should totes get repair too

all lower case because im not sure if im joking or not

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Some things that should be changed about repair:
- you should only further damage armor on a critical fail, as in, 1 of 100. Master Repair should never further damage armor. Ever.
- you should get fails on any repair that isn't back to unflagged status.
- Armor Repair should come before Armor Making.
- New should be a flag reserved for new armor, not repaired armor. When you buy it in the shop, just loaded or crafted, it should say new. After it's seen it's first damage, it should never again say new.

[Cabooze]

- Armor Making should come before Armor Repair.

Is this what you meant?

[musashi]

I like everything about this.
Awesome job.

[Patuk]

...In the same month that staff adds a tax bracket just for people with >2,000 coins in their account, a new mechanism for adding costs to maintaining gear... I am pretty damn sure that the staff and devs are adding/changing features in the RIGHT DIRECTION! WOO!

...However it does concern me a bit to hear that even at high levels of skill, there is a chance to destroy items with PC repair work. This is concerning to me. After all, Salarr repairers have a 100% success rate.

I would like that addressed if possible, and/or changing the salarri repairers to make them more expensive or have a chance at being much more expensive, or perhaps, more realistically, taking MUCH MUCH LONGER than a few hours.

When I took my boots to a cobbler last time to get the bottoms replaced, it took him maybe a whole day or two. I say to balance things out, a.) make master repairer PCs more reliable, such as by having tools that give a boost to the repair skill, and b.) make NPC repairers take MUCH MUCH MUCH longer to do the job, like 1+ days minimum, to reflect the large number of repair jobs they have to do every day.

It's possible you could up the price and add a 100 coin extra service fee to all existing resize and repairs, and increase it all to take at least an in game day. However, that is kicking dwarves and half-giants who need to resize everything anyways. I suppose this still isn't entirely unrealistic or against the theme.

If you want the best sort of repairs/resizing, you're going to have to pay good for them.

Dwarves are one matter, since they don't differ from other humanoids in their size that much, but HG armour being crazy expensive is sensible if anything, as far as I'm concerned.

[Nyr]

Thanks for the feedback on armor repair.  We are looking at armor repair to make a few adjustments that should make it simpler to understand and adjust (both for players and staff).

Skill branching:  flattening some skill branches is something that has been brought up by staff in the past.  With the look we are doing at armor repair now, it is likely this will be reviewed sooner than later.

Half-giants and resizing:  if you want an unofficial staff thought on it, the only reason it is possible to resize small stuff to quite a bit bigger stuff is because of player convenience and a lack of a coded alternative.  If it changes it will likely be in the direction of resizing upwards being impossible past a certain point.

[KankWhisperer]

Would be sweet if you could:

craft <materials> into <item> for <race>

Maybe creates the item for standard race size.

or

craft <materials> into <item> for <individual>

If you wanted to make it right there for the person.

[Delirium]

The problem with raising cost to repair is that it then becomes cheaper to just get a new set of armor.

The problem with making it impossible to resize up/down past a certain point is that we can't craft or tailor things specifically for certain sizes.

I'm all for adjusting armor repair shops to take 5x as long as they currently do, though.

[jhunter]

From what I recall on the skill, it had issues.
Too difficult to train. Critical failures ruining the item you are attempting to repair.
Ruining the item in a repair attempt should be extremely rare and impossible for a Master to do. There should be craftable items, like say:
A chitin patch. A leather patch.
That would allow you to increase the skill without even having a chance to ruin precious armor. And it might make it a little more realistic to craft such patches and then use them to repair the armor. Maybe just ruining the patches on a critical failure instead of the item you intend to repair.
Make repaired armor show up as something other than "new". Patched armor, used armor, etc.

[Barzalene]

Half-giants and resizing:  if you want an unofficial staff thought on it, the only reason it is possible to resize small stuff to quite a bit bigger stuff is because of player convenience and a lack of a coded alternative.  If it changes it will likely be in the direction of resizing upwards being impossible past a certain point.

Before that change we need to put in sufficient HG specific armor and clothing. Because we don't want a world full of nekid half giants! At least I don't.