Author Topic: Bank Changes Discussion Thread  (Read 39732 times)

nauta

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2015, 02:36:53 PM »
We might change the gradient in either direction.  We'll see whether this has the desired/expected effect, first.

Out of curiosity, what is the desired/expected effect?  I can guess, but it'd be nice to hear.  (I don't think it was in the announcement - and thanks!  I just get all excited about any change.)

as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Delirium

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2015, 02:37:28 PM »
Like I said, I'm for this change. Just not yet. There needed to be other things/fixes implemented first.

Denominations or tokens, improved NPC representation of virtual world for pickpockets/burglars, and oh yeah, an entire economic overhaul.

I could go on for pages about how broken the crafting recipes are and how screwed up the economic prices for everything is.

Implementing bank fees is like slapping a band-aid on a festering wound.
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

wizturbo

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2015, 02:43:06 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% behind these changes, but just not at the rates I'm currently seeing.  

Also, I'd prefer to pay a deposit fee, than a withdrawal fee...  Because lets pretend my account balance is 40000 sid, and I'm in the 20% fee bracket...   in reality, I can only withdraw 32000.  It's misleading.

Kismetic

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2015, 02:43:31 PM »
This is a step in the right direction of balancing this world's economy to match the documentation, I hope.
"Well, Gary, if that even is your real name ...  somebody stole my computer.  Now, if you're a criminal--  Look at me! ... You have to tell me, legally, or else it's considered entrapment."  -- Andy Dwyer

Delirium

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2015, 02:46:33 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% behind these changes, but just not at the rates I'm currently seeing.  

Also, I'd prefer to pay a deposit fee, than a withdrawal fee.

Definitely agree, it should be a deposit fee (templar notices unusually large deposit; levies fines).
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

Kismetic

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2015, 02:47:41 PM »
I'm gonna disagree with that point on the merit that Nenyuk wants you to put money in, and doesn't want you to take it out.
"Well, Gary, if that even is your real name ...  somebody stole my computer.  Now, if you're a criminal--  Look at me! ... You have to tell me, legally, or else it's considered entrapment."  -- Andy Dwyer

wizturbo

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2015, 02:47:52 PM »
I'd also hope the staff would permit a one-time withdrawal for PC's that wouldn't have deposited that amount of coin into Nenyuk had there been this level of fees in place.  

I don't think it really matters for me personally, but if I was playing an aspiring independent merchant trying to claw my way up into a minor merchant house, and 20% of my money suddenly evaporated, I think that might be a problem...  especially considering these indie merchants don't exactly have it easy as it is.  Granted, this is only really a one-time problem, as with the fees in place everyone can make these decisions ICly going forward.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 02:51:03 PM by wizturbo »

wizturbo

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2015, 02:49:15 PM »
I'm gonna disagree with that point on the merit that Nenyuk wants you to put money in, and doesn't want you to take it out.

But its exactly the same thing.  You lose the money the moment you deposit it, it's just displaying the wrong number of balance available for withdrawal.

Kismetic

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2015, 02:50:45 PM »
I'm gonna disagree with that point on the merit that Nenyuk wants you to put money in, and doesn't want you to take it out.

But its exactly the same thing.  You lose the money the moment you deposit it, it's just displaying the wrong number of balance available for withdrawal.

It's not the same thing, at all.  

Nenyuk at deposit:  "*smiley gladhand*  Of course we'll keep your money safe!"

Nenyuk at withdrawal:  "Ah, but safety comes at a cost!"

I mean if the entire freakin' world knows, I see why you'd think it's the same thing, but it's really not for anybody who's never encountered Nenyuk.
"Well, Gary, if that even is your real name ...  somebody stole my computer.  Now, if you're a criminal--  Look at me! ... You have to tell me, legally, or else it's considered entrapment."  -- Andy Dwyer

wizturbo

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2015, 02:52:47 PM »
It just means you have to constantly do math to determine how much actual coin you have.  It's annoying, not immersive.

Nyr

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2015, 02:53:09 PM »
We might change the gradient in either direction.  We'll see whether this has the desired/expected effect, first.

Out of curiosity, what is the desired/expected effect?  I can guess, but it'd be nice to hear.  (I don't think it was in the announcement - and thanks!  I just get all excited about any change.)

Creating an additional place for a money sink.  

Before today, banks were completely safe places to keep money for free.  Now you can keep that money there for free, but taking it out will cost you.  If having more money is important than having safe (but a smaller amount of) money, the character may choose to keep the money around rather than in a bank account--meaning that now the money is vulnerable for theft.
Paint on a mustache and be a dude for a day. Stuff some melons down my shirt, cinch up a corset and pass as a girl.

With appropriate roleplay of course.

Kismetic

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2015, 02:55:14 PM »
It just means you have to constantly do math to determine how much actual coin you have.  It's annoying, not immersive.

Well, maybe a convenience could be added when displaying with the 'balance' command.

You have 'x' coins, accounting for your current withdrawal rate of x%.  I mean, I don't wanna shit on Nathvaan's Cheerios, he did a cool thing.  But you could ask.
"Well, Gary, if that even is your real name ...  somebody stole my computer.  Now, if you're a criminal--  Look at me! ... You have to tell me, legally, or else it's considered entrapment."  -- Andy Dwyer

Desertman

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2015, 02:55:21 PM »
We might change the gradient in either direction.  We'll see whether this has the desired/expected effect, first.

Out of curiosity, what is the desired/expected effect?  I can guess, but it'd be nice to hear.  (I don't think it was in the announcement - and thanks!  I just get all excited about any change.)

Creating an additional place for a money sink.  

Before today, banks were completely safe places to keep money for free.  Now you can keep that money there for free, but taking it out will cost you.  If having more money is important than having safe (but a smaller amount of) money, the character may choose to keep the money around rather than in a bank account--meaning that now the money is vulnerable for theft.

Get ready to see more of this.



My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
The young daughter has been filled.

KankWhisperer

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2015, 02:56:29 PM »
What's the 'desired effect' that Staff is shooting for?

Eh answered above.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 03:06:53 PM by KankWhisperer »

wizturbo

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2015, 02:58:09 PM »

You have 'x' coins, accounting for your current withdrawal rate of x%.  I mean, I don't wanna shit on Nathvaan's Cheerios, he did a cool thing.  But you could ask.

Yeah don't get me wrong, I really like this, and it's awesome that code was added to do it.  Great job coders, you're awesome!   Just debating the tuning of the rates, and the way account balances are displayed requiring math skillz that most Zalanthians probably don't have :p

Desertman

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2015, 02:59:52 PM »
The rates are designed to not be a "slight annoyance", but a serious factor to take into consideration in terms of where you are keeping your money and how you are handling keeping it safe.

5% isn't enough to make me care. 25% is enough to make me start making decisions about where/how I plan to do things in regards to what I want to do to make sure my money is not only safe, but also not being basically stolen by Nenyuk.

I think the rates are fine.

My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
The young daughter has been filled.

Kismetic

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2015, 02:59:57 PM »

You have 'x' coins, accounting for your current withdrawal rate of x%.  I mean, I don't wanna shit on Nathvaan's Cheerios, he did a cool thing.  But you could ask.

Yeah don't get me wrong, I really like this, and it's awesome that code was added to do it.  Great job coders, you're awesome!   Just debating the tuning of the rates, and the way account balances are displayed requiring math skillz that most Zalanthians probably don't have :p

Yeah, I can totally relate.
"Well, Gary, if that even is your real name ...  somebody stole my computer.  Now, if you're a criminal--  Look at me! ... You have to tell me, legally, or else it's considered entrapment."  -- Andy Dwyer

Nathvaan

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2015, 03:00:41 PM »
It just means you have to constantly do math to determine how much actual coin you have.  It's annoying, not immersive.

Well, maybe a convenience could be added when displaying with the 'balance' command.

You have 'x' coins, accounting for your current withdrawal rate of x%.  I mean, I don't wanna shit on Nathvaan's Cheerios, he did a cool thing.  But you could ask.

First, I wondered what was in my cheerios!  Though it's not my change, sorry to say.

Second, it does the math for you.  You simply withdraw the amount you want and the additional amount is deducted as well.  The agent lets you know the amount as well.

Code: [Select]
>The Nenyuki Agent tells you, '...and another 100 coins out of your account for my time.'
The Nenyuki Agent tells you, 'You now have 900 coins in your account.'
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 03:07:02 PM by Nathvaan »

Majikal

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2015, 03:03:21 PM »
Wasn't there a thread not all that long ago talking about how indie players stack tons of coin and got nothing to spend it on, now they drop a tax and people are complaining about high taxes. You can't win!


I dig the change 100%. Don't use nenyuk, stack thousands of coins on your person, in your home to save yourself from a meager tax... then nasty people shiv you and get paid.

OR

Pay the tax, enjoy your coin being in safety, nenyuk continues to dominate, you walk around not jingling so much.


I dig this addition.
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Delirium

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2015, 03:06:27 PM »
People keep forgetting how this is going to impact, well, everything. We need denominations or tokens because coins weigh a fuckton. We need NPC burglary targets because it's unrealistic that everyone is going to get robbed blind because they're the only damn target in sight for all those broke-ass burglars. We need, well, a lot of things.

Everything costs so much that if you're walking around with less than 1k you're constantly running to the bank. But money is freaking heavy.

This primarily impacts city-bound characters; rangers or those who can otherwise sustain themselves without money will continue happily bopping along.

Yes, the percentages look absolutely ridiculous but that's not the biggest problem I have with this.
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

solera

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2015, 03:07:31 PM »
Room weight limits  ;D

Nyr

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2015, 03:10:05 PM »
I don't think it really matters for me personally, but if I was playing an aspiring independent merchant trying to claw my way up into a minor merchant house, and 20% of my money suddenly evaporated, I think that might be a problem...  especially considering these indie merchants don't exactly have it easy as it is.  Granted, this is only really a one-time problem, as with the fees in place everyone can make these decisions ICly going forward.

Another note, in case it is not clear, the fee is based on your account size, but the fee is x % of the withdrawal, not x% of the account.

If the rate is 20% on your account of (let's say) 30,000 coins, then:

Taking out 1000 coins means you are levied a fee of 200 coins.
Taking out 5k?  You are levied a fee of 1000 coins.
Taking out 30k?  You are levied a fee of 6000 coins and your account is zeroed out, leaving you with 24k coins in hand.

Yes, if you are taking out all of your coin at once, you are losing 20% of it at that level.
Paint on a mustache and be a dude for a day. Stuff some melons down my shirt, cinch up a corset and pass as a girl.

With appropriate roleplay of course.

Desertman

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2015, 03:13:11 PM »
People keep forgetting how this is going to impact, well, everything. We need denominations or tokens because coins weigh a fuckton. We need NPC burglary targets because it's unrealistic that everyone is going to get robbed blind because they're the only damn target in sight for all those broke-ass burglars. We need, well, a lot of things.

Everything costs so much that if you're walking around with less than 1k you're constantly running to the bank. But money is freaking heavy.

This primarily impacts city-bound characters; rangers or those who can otherwise sustain themselves without money will continue happily bopping along.

Yes, the percentages look absolutely ridiculous but that's not the biggest problem I have with this.

NPC burglary targets aren't going to keep burglars from robbing the PCs who actually have stuff worth stealing. They will just rob the NPCs AND the PCs. It will mean more money for burglars, not less theft of PC things.

The "scorched earth steal everything in sight" poorly played burglars are still going to do exactly that.

The well played "only take things worth taking that are realistic to take" burglars are still going to target the PCs because they are in fact played well and as such will target PCs with things actually worth taking.

I'm not sure how this is tied into the banking code change anyways, unless the idea is that burglars are going to rob NPCs instead of steal the money people are now maybe going to keep in their apartments...(which they won't, they will just take the money too).

I do like the idea of tokens/denominations to reduce weight. I don't think weight of money should be the determining factor. If you WANT to carry 50,000 coins on you and think that's actually a good idea...you should be able to....you shouldn't be limited because your money is heavy....I want to rob the guy who does that anyways.
My phone now autocorrects "damn" to Dman.
The young daughter has been filled.

lostinspace

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2015, 03:15:14 PM »
Well, I won't be using banks so much anymore. If that was the goal, mission accomplished!
3/21/16 Never Forget

KankWhisperer

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Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2015, 03:17:15 PM »
But where are thieves  going to keep ill gotten gains.