Noble Power

[HavokBlue]

There is, to my knowledge, no functional way to allow crimcode immunity to multiple clans and as much as people ask for it, I don't think it's the sort of thing that's going to be implemented.

I'm trying to brainstorm other solutions to the status quo problem and will post any I come up with.

[Armaddict]

There is, to my knowledge, no functional way to allow crimcode immunity to multiple clans and as much as people ask for it, I don't think it's the sort of thing that's going to be implemented.

I'm trying to brainstorm other solutions to the status quo problem and will post any I come up with.

In the past, nobles could attack commoners anywhere in the city and not be affected by crimcode.  However, if soldiers were nearby, they would still follow their 'assist' code, which is, I assume, the problem with that system that made it so this was apparently removed...soldiers would never assist a commoner against a noble, and so that is rather hard to explain IC.

Granted, I very rarely saw it done.  Which is how it should be.  It is codedly possible, but I think there are certain 'kinks' in it that are much harder to solve.

[nauta]

There is, to my knowledge, no functional way to allow crimcode immunity to multiple clans and as much as people ask for it, I don't think it's the sort of thing that's going to be implemented.

I'm trying to brainstorm other solutions to the status quo problem and will post any I come up with.

Hi, I wonder what you have in mind. 

For instance, if there were a commoner PC acting against the docs and ignoring the virtual world and treating your noble like a chum or a piece of poop or whatever, and there are no PCs around to put that PC in its place, you could just give subtle clues through an emote that reminds them that you are, indeed, to be bowed to, and if that still doesn't work, just exit the scene (maybe with a little ooc) and fire off a player complaint, depending on if they are a total newb or not.

Or maybe that's not the scenario you have in mind.

[Riev]

There is, to my knowledge, no functional way to allow crimcode immunity to multiple clans and as much as people ask for it, I don't think it's the sort of thing that's going to be implemented.

I'm trying to brainstorm other solutions to the status quo problem and will post any I come up with.

You can give people !crim based on their current clan, but it is -not- very recommended. !crim is a really big privledge, all things considered. Even for nobles... suddenly they can do a whole host of things not just "hitting people" without crime being reported.

I think thats one of the big problems. In the past, even my Militia/Legion PCs have to wish up and have !crim removed before they do something outside the eyes of the law.

[Lizzie]

There is, to my knowledge, no functional way to allow crimcode immunity to multiple clans and as much as people ask for it, I don't think it's the sort of thing that's going to be implemented.

I'm trying to brainstorm other solutions to the status quo problem and will post any I come up with.

You can give people !crim based on their current clan, but it is -not- very recommended. !crim is a really big privledge, all things considered. Even for nobles... suddenly they can do a whole host of things not just "hitting people" without crime being reported.

I think thats one of the big problems. In the past, even my Militia/Legion PCs have to wish up and have !crim removed before they do something outside the eyes of the law.

This is why I suggested some new thing. A special exclusive subdue/toss that doesn't toggle the crim code or toggle combat on. Just for nobles and their NPC guards, templars and the PC soldiers above recruit rank. Could even make it so that it doesn't work for half-giants, if you worry about accidentally killing a PC that you merely wanted to throw out of the bar. It would be stronger than the regular subdue, to make it harder to resist if you have your nosave subdue toggled the wrong way. And the toss would only allow someone to be sent 1 room away.

Nothing is more frustrating, to me, than watching a scene or being part of a scene, in which Joe Grebber shows up and starts mouthing off to a noble, and there's nothing the noble can do about it other than say pretty please go away, or engage in coded combat.

[Riev]

I'd honestly like to see Noble Guards get the flag to allow subdue/arrest. The noble can order them to keep that dirty commoner away from them, if they "resist" the subdue, well... clearly that person is an IMMEDIATE threat to the noble's security, and would need to be under arrest from nearby soldiers anyways.

Then the noble basically can just order the guard to throw them out of the bar. Kind of gets rid of the "nobles have no crime code", gives them a way to deal with potentially inflammatory troll-grebbers, and anyone that would abuse "guards subduing people" would probably get found out MUCH quicker than "hahaha my noble can do whatever he wants around the city and never get caught".

[Kryos]

Rather than be eloquent, I'm going to brass tax my view in a list of things I believe matter.

Nobility must be crim code immune.

Nobility must be able to hire muscle(all houses), and in some cases, certain tiers of these stooges should be crim code immune but certainly not pc soldier/templar immune.  (I'm looking at you, Tor, Borsail, and Winrothol).

Nobility must be able to flex fiscal and social power on a whim - but this is a can of worms.  Commoners should rarely touch the monetary range of a noble(or GMH rep), unless they are working on becoming socially elite themselves.  Dirtbags should make next to no money when they do their dirtbag, unclanned, unimportant work:  NPC vendors should cut drastically their offers for non clanned, or peon ranked PCs.  Gouging by PC's at taste, of course.  Food and water should be stay at costs they are, or even go up a bit, while accessible money goes way down.  Merchant Houses should sell the dregs to the dregs.  This is necessary because money and associative status then becomes a big motivation for the throngs.

There needs to be resources to fight over internally (same city) and externally(differing cities).  Winning and loosing them should impact.

No new noble should have the power to unleash Armageddon right out of the gate.  But if they get the ball rolling, the possibility to have agency in world changing events of a range of scales(and failure in them, of course) can and should exist for nobility and the Templarate. 

This will create a much better 'air' about nobility in the game.  In short, the gap is too narrow between Fancy McFalePants and Joe Dirt.  Widen the gap, widen it a lot.

[bardlyone]

Rather than be eloquent, I'm going to brass tax my view in a list of things I believe matter.

Nobility must be crim code immune.

Nobility must be able to hire muscle(all houses), and in some cases, certain tiers of these stooges should be crim code immune but certainly not pc soldier/templar immune.  (I'm looking at you, Tor, Borsail, and Winrothol).

Nobility must be able to flex fiscal and social power on a whim - but this is a can of worms.  Commoners should rarely touch the monetary range of a noble(or GMH rep), unless they are working on becoming socially elite themselves.  Dirtbags should make next to no money when they do their dirtbag, unclanned, unimportant work:  NPC vendors should cut drastically their offers for non clanned, or peon ranked PCs.  Gouging by PC's at taste, of course.  Food and water should be stay at costs they are, or even go up a bit, while accessible money goes way down.  Merchant Houses should sell the dregs to the dregs.  This is necessary because money and associative status then becomes a big motivation for the throngs.

There needs to be resources to fight over internally (same city) and externally(differing cities).  Winning and loosing them should impact.

No new noble should have the power to unleash Armageddon right out of the gate.  But if they get the ball rolling, the possibility to have agency in world changing events of a range of scales(and failure in them, of course) can and should exist for nobility and the Templarate. 

This will create a much better 'air' about nobility in the game.  In short, the gap is too narrow between Fancy McFalePants and Joe Dirt.  Widen the gap, widen it a lot.

I'm sure if you know the game better, you have ample reason to think that. It is hard enough to survive if you do not.

[Patuk]

I'm not very sure what you people are so afraid of where 'abuse' is concerned re: crimcode. Firstly, any cautious noble can go ahead and go through a vetting process for the people they'd hire just to see they're not complete idiots. Secondly, crimcode immunity abuse is annoying, but can be dealt with ICly nicely. If some bastardly idiot makes a habit out of messing with people, his employer is probably going to look bad enough that they'd be the first to tell them off.

[Delirium]

Kyros' suggestions are good, but actually there just needs to be more crappy food for crappy commoners.

Bowls of gruel and questionable stews, semi-rancid dried meat, several variations on flatbread and travel cakes, etc etc etc.

As for hiring muscle - eh - you can, you just can't have them officially clanned. I think that's fine. Not completely ideal, but fine.

Mostly I think people could stand to remember that nobles are better than commoners are, no matter what that commoner has done, been through, etc.

We just need more people setting good examples and guarding against that temptation to break convention.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think nobles need to be crimcode-immune, and I certainly don't think house employees should be.  There are plenty of ways to murder someone despite crimcode.  Even in Allanak you should desire more tact than having employees in uniform shank someone on the street.

That said, I wouldn't mind brawl code extended beyond taverns, especially if it was intelligent enough to make some judgments about social status.

While there have been changes to clan structure (the infamous glass ceiling), I'm not sure it really reduced plot opportunities by that much.  Most of the time when a PC noble got promoted to senior back in the day, it seemed like it was AFTER they'd accomplished something significant.

[Semper]

The problem with crim-code immunity isn't so much about player trust as it is the coded glitches that could happen if used mistakenly. For example, if one person is crimcode immune and the other isn't, then when either attacks the other, the character who is not crim-code immune will get insta-ganked by any npc soldier that's around. I'm not sure if that's exactly what happens IG, but bugs like this would be very serious and would need to get worked out.

I agree that a tier before complete immunity might be nice, such as implementing the brawl code at a certain level, except you can perhaps knock the person out if they stick around too long. If a guard is protecting their noble, then you should be able to protect your charge from anyone attempting to do this also. All of this gets pretty complicated though when you have to think about what it takes to work out the kinks.

[Armaddict]

In the past, my guards just...got crimcoded.

Killed those fuckers anyway, or sent him scrambling for his life.  The noble I was doing it for got me out promptly.  Not sure crimcode immunity is as essential as it's being made to sound, but it certainly...changes a lot of dynamics.  Assuming nobles have PC guards again.

[Saellyn]

Here is how crimcode immunity works:

Guy without immunity attacks anyone: NPC SOLDIER SMASH!

Guy with immunity attacks NEARLY anyone (looking at Templars): NPC soldier turn blind eye

Guy without immunity is attacked by guy with immunity: Depends. If the guy without immunity has nosave combat, he will not retaliate and the soldiers won't fucking care. If guy without immunity does NOT have that in, the NPC soldiers will promptly smash his face into the dirt.

[Tetra]

Why not just make an entirely new flag for the crimcode?

One that lets you punch people in the face or subdue them, then give that to the Aides or lackeys or whatever.  Anything beyond that: drawing weapons, stealing, killing; still flags the usual crimcode.

[Down Under]

Or, expand brawl code to allow weapons. Allow brawl code in every room. After a certain health when brawl tells you to stop, if you kill , crime code kicks in as per usual.

[RogueGunslinger]

I really like that idea.

[Barsook]

I really like that idea.

[Lizzie]

Why would you want to implement this for nobles? Nobles shouldn't be getting into street-fights, or bar brawls. The idea of a new aspect of the crimcode, is basically what I had suggested in the first place. The one that lets nobles and their guards and higher-ranking employees toss someone either out of the bar, or out of their noble's way, without having to deal with the crimcode at all. Not a fight, not a punch, or a hit, or weapons. Just a simple grab and toss.

[CodeMaster]

Why would you want to implement this for nobles? Nobles shouldn't be getting into street-fights, or bar brawls. The idea of a new aspect of the crimcode, is basically what I had suggested in the first place. The one that lets nobles and their guards and higher-ranking employees toss someone either out of the bar, or out of their noble's way, without having to deal with the crimcode at all. Not a fight, not a punch, or a hit, or weapons. Just a simple grab and toss.

What about just kitting noble players out with some fairly simple scripts:

Code Select Expand


> noble eject elf
You motion to the handsome elf, who is swiftly escorted from the premises.
[25% chance for the target that he incurs some HP loss due to the guards manhandling him]


Then some other stuff like (jus spitballing here):

Code Select Expand


> noble arena
You send a psionic message over the Way requesting the arena status.
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
A scruffy errand boy sends you a telepathic message:
    "No fights in the arena at the moment, m'lord!"


Code Select Expand


> noble weather
You send a psionic message over the Way requesting the weather outside.
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
A wild-haired errand boy sends you a telepathic message:
    "The weather outside the city is calm, m'lord."


Code Select Expand


> noble withdraw 200
You send a psionic message over the Way requesting a withdrawal.
A stout errand boy approaches <noble> and delivers a coin pouch.


[Down Under]

The noble wouldn't get in some street brawl. But their employees might, on their behalf.

The feud between Houses always made me think of Capulet vs Montague but never played out that way.

A soldier -could- intervene. But wouldn't need to. If one of the participants were affiliated, say, and the other guy was some Rinther.

With subdue also, you could have crime code kick in if you hold someone in a firm grip. Right now it kicks in if you even attempt. I think it should only kick in if you succeed, someone attempts to flee, and they succeed.

[MeTekillot]

Are you saying that noble's Aides should slug it out and subdue each other, or that they should open the combat sections of certain noble houses to facilitate that?

[bardlyone]

Why would you want to implement this for nobles? Nobles shouldn't be getting into street-fights, or bar brawls. The idea of a new aspect of the crimcode, is basically what I had suggested in the first place. The one that lets nobles and their guards and higher-ranking employees toss someone either out of the bar, or out of their noble's way, without having to deal with the crimcode at all. Not a fight, not a punch, or a hit, or weapons. Just a simple grab and toss.

What about just kitting noble players out with some fairly simple scripts:

Code Select Expand


> noble eject elf
You motion to the handsome elf, who is swiftly escorted from the premises.
[25% chance for the target that he incurs some HP loss due to the guards manhandling him]


Then some other stuff like (jus spitballing here):

Code Select Expand


> noble arena
You send a psionic message over the Way requesting the arena status.
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
A scruffy errand boy sends you a telepathic message:
    "No fights in the arena at the moment, m'lord!"


Code Select Expand


> noble weather
You send a psionic message over the Way requesting the weather outside.
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
A wild-haired errand boy sends you a telepathic message:
    "The weather outside the city is calm, m'lord."


Code Select Expand


> noble withdraw 200
You send a psionic message over the Way requesting a withdrawal.
A stout errand boy approaches <noble> and delivers a coin pouch.


That looks really awesome, and should probably apply to templars, too, do you think? Since they'd both feasibly have a gossip/info network in their clans and ranks to provide such basic but good flavor information.

[MeTekillot]

Are you saying that noble's Aides should slug it out and subdue each other, or that they should open the combat sections of certain noble houses to facilitate that?

Actually, I fully support noble Aide slap fights and am now actively campaigning against opening up the combat clans of Noble houses.

[Down Under]

I'm saying that yes -- Affiliated people should be able to brawl throughout the city. PC soldiers should be able to break up those fights, or 'incriminate' people who resist and don't go their separate ways.

There are a lot of restrictions in place for crime-code that I don't think match the maturity of most people IG. It is a privilege that should be taken away if people abuse it, but what kind of law enforcement beat cop can't arrest people? Or threaten to, in order to get information?

Likewise -- If there aren't any soldier NPCs around, why should all the soldiers automatically know or care about a street-brawl?

Just things to think about.