Changes to crafting tools.

[wizturbo]

This is really cool.

Recently, I was actually thinking about the concept of further degradation of things.  Things needing to be refilled.  So on.  I think it will help with the whole 'money isn't that valuable' thing that happens beyond a certain point.

I approve of this change.

I dig this change as well.  Would love to see things like weapons/armor degrade as well at a much more substantial rate than they do today, especially considering the relatively soft/brittle materials used for crafting in Zalanthas.

[RogueGunslinger]

Hm. I don't do crafters usually, and this would be another reason not to, imo. I'm all for realism but I don't enjoy tedium. I think this adds an extra layers of work that while entirely realistic doesn't really mean fun to me. I get a lot of people like this sort of thing but it reminds me a lot of seeing clans with 20 broken shields in their Yard armor rack, just because people don't enjoy spam-walking the 20 rooms to the repair shop to get them fixed.

[Fujikoma]

So, let me get this straight...there is to be recipes that require tools?

If so, with the current crafting system, how is this an improvement?

If I type craft bone right now, with say, knifemaking, it says you can make a knife, it does not tell me that I could also make several other types of knives with that bone if I had other items...so, I assume that the crafting system is unchanged, so now items that require tools will not show unless you have that tool? Oh, great....let us add yet another component to any recipe.

Currently, I would not consider this an improvement.

At least on a certain other rpi that requires tools for crafting, you can see everything you need ahead of time. And even then that system is rather annoying.

I agree with X-D here. I don't like this, I think it needlessly complicates an already complicated process, and gimps an already gimped class further. What happens when TOOL recipes require TOOLS. You can't make that tool, because you don't have that tool, contact Kadius. Kadius doesn't gaf about your indie ass, join a clan. This restricts character concepts and pigeonholes people into a system where they will feel bored, stifled, and irritable, and do something more fun, like, say, go play a ranger or something. Tools have never been easy to acquire, in fact, if you get one, sometimes, you have to spend months until a GMH merchant will finally make your non-tool-crafting butt one, and then, it's our little secret, no one can know. Fletchery wrenches, the new defiling.

Considering how many newbie merchants I have found wasting away, down to their last small, STILL waiting on the agent for the other GMH because the first turned them down, I don't like it. I really don't. But I've said that and should stop being redundant. These are my opinions and there's a really good chance they're wrong. Let's no complicate things needlessly. If you want immersion, throw it into your emotes, but if you're down to your last small, can't find any tools, and finally got to the point to where you can make something that will fetch you some sid, assuming the shopkeeper isn't broke (hint: he is), imagine finding out you need a TOOL, a rare artifact of power, whose rarity can be attributed to both the lack of indie merchants and the jaded apathy of bored GMH merchants hanging on the edge of storing, and the frustration will become evident.

If there's a tool shop added, with an extensive number of tools, a decent amount of coin for buying higher-quality crafted tools, then i can see this possibly working out, but I don't see how the crafting change is needed, although I'm a big fan of MORE shops. I certainly wouldn't like to see the crafting change take place before the shops are added, at least one to each city, village, what have you. Tools will be VITAL to doing ANYTHING. As it stands, some places lack some seriously vital services. While there are workarounds, they're quite hazerdous for some and require a good deal of complicated travelling and logistics, it makes no sense to me that the providers of said services would ignore the places where they could pull in coin just because, deal with it.

/rant

[bracken]

Ana isn't successful now on some items without the appropriate tool. I'm guessing it will be like that.
I hope you can still chip rocks just with a hammer stone. (Hidden grudge: stone chisels for stone make me uncomfortable.)
I'm also thinking of Lizzie saying somewhere that she refused to hold a tool that was ridiculous for the item she was working on. (Of course "They" who were advising her may have been wrong. Most people are.
At times, I would have given blood for 20 broken items to hang on my rack.

And, Fuji, I'm saying by my experience, you don't need a tool shop dispenser. You may need to go grebbing or shovelling  or begging while you beg borrow or steal a tool, or wait for a PC to put one in the shop.
I feel a reactionary pigheadedness coming upon me. Sorry.

[wizturbo]

Hm. I don't do crafters usually, and this would be another reason not to, imo. I'm all for realism but I don't enjoy tedium. I think this adds an extra layers of work that while entirely realistic doesn't really mean fun to me. I get a lot of people like this sort of thing but it reminds me a lot of seeing clans with 20 broken shields in their Yard armor rack, just because people don't enjoy spam-walking the 20 rooms to the repair shop to get them fixed.

I don't mean sparring equipment.  Sparring equipment by its very nature should be incredibly durable, because it's all padded/dull.

But if you're going out into the wilds and fighting for real, with sharpened weapons/etc...there should be some serious damage to gear as a result.  That creates a market for people who can do repairs, is more realistic, and prevents super long treks into the wild without the necessary skill set.  I'd be cool with making armor much more protective as a trade off as well.  That chitin helmet might offer some awesome damage reduction, but after taking a couple blows, it's going to crack and become far less protective...etc.  A way of making combat less dangerous, but at a price beyond just resting somewhere until your health regens.

[Fujikoma]

Ana isn't successful now on some items without the appropriate tool. I'm guessing it will be like that.
I hope you can still chip rocks just with a hammer stone. (Hidden grudge: stone chisels for stone make me uncomfortable.)
I'm also thinking of Lizzie saying somewhere that she refused to hold a tool that was ridiculous for the item she was working on. (Of course "They" who were advising her may have been wrong. Most people are.
At times, I would have given blood for 20 broken items to hang on my rack.

And, Fuji, I'm saying by my experience, you don't need a tool shop dispenser. You may need to go grebbing or shovelling  or begging while you beg borrow or steal a tool, or wait for a PC to put one in the shop.
I feel a reactionary pigheadedness coming upon me. Sorry.

I'm telling you, I had a PC once who was looking for SOME way, ANY way to make some coin off of [skill], I waited an IG year and a half, communicating my desire for one of these fabled tools. Then I finally got it and realized that despite my skill level coupled with the tool, it was near useless, because I was burning far more coin than I made from the finished product on materials anyway. Other crafting skills, in my experience, are much more profitable, simply because there are more vendors willing to purchase said items, and the materials that can be used are widely variable and there are more recipes.

Look, I just prefer a sane difficulty level for newer players. The learning curve is already rather fricking steep. This just adds another complicated step on top of other complicated steps. Begging, stealing, shovelling and grebbing I'm quite familiar with, and have had to use, frequently, to varying degrees of success. I'm a very determined and stubborn person and can make some things work that others may find impossible, I think setting the bar at my level would be a serious error. I am an insatiable twink and I will find a way to deal. Others will not.

[X-D]

Ana isn't successful now on some items without the appropriate tool. I'm guessing it will be like that.

Actually bracken, that is not correct. It just means that your skill level was not high enough. And the tool simply gave you the boost to that point.

Requiring tools for a craft is a TOTALLY different animal. IE, from the staff posting I take it as the Tool is actually getting added to the recipe as a component.

Or it might be that the skill itself is going to require tools, still it is the same as adding it to the craft IMO.

But you do not have to type it into the craft.

Now, I might be wrong on the new tool system, but I am correct on the old.

[wizturbo]

As part of the continued incremental changes to crafting, crafting tools have received a little love!

 

• Change to allow for some optional values on a recipe for a tool type required and quality required.

I hope that this becomes the new status quo for clan specific items, rather than making them clan_tag required.  It's more realistic, and has the potential for far more conflict and merchant-wars than the OOC construct of requiring a clan_tag in order to make something.  It's absurd to me that you could make something one day from simple materials and tools, but suddenly be unable to the next because you were kicked from the clan.  Not having the rare and valuable tool to convert those materials into special goods is another matter, and is much more realistic.

For instance, if Kuraci raptor nuggets required a deep fryer tool that was typically only seen in the kitchens in House Kurac, then I'm cool with not being able to make them unless you had a deep fryer.  But if I managed to get said deep fryer, I should be able to make raptor nuggets despite not being in the clan.  Of course Kurac will come hunt me down and kill me for trying to butt into their raptor nugget monopoly...but that's the risk I took when stealing/mastercrafting the tool on my own.

On the other hand, I do NOT hope this becomes common place for independent craftable items, except for particularly rare or masterwork stuff.  It would just overly complicate the novice-advanced portion of this classes development, having tools provide a bonus makes it worthwhile enough to pursue them at these levels.

[bracken]

I like things that encourage interactions, and adverse circumstances that may encourage living PC's to change what their maker intended them to be.
I like to think that we bend over backwards tp point newbies towards people that might help them survive. I'd rather our PC's , where possible (a velvet hand in a spiked gauntlet or something?) make things work for newbs, rather than provide dispensing shops.
If they are broke, I'd rather they were encouraged to throw away their skill set for a while and become a Byn barber.

But that's just my opinion, one amongst many.

[Fujikoma]

I like things that encourage interactions, and adverse circumstances that may encourage living PC's to change what their maker intended them to be.
I like to think that we bend over backwards tp point newbies towards people that might help them survive. I'd rather our PC's , where possible (a velvet hand in a spiked gauntlet or something?) make things work for newbs, rather than provide dispensing shops.
If they are broke, I'd rather they were encouraged to throw away their skill set for a while and become a Byn barber.

But that's just my opinion, one amongst many.

Well, it's definitely going to provide some interesting challenges for PCs that are discouraged from interacting, but only masochists play those so thumbs up. There's a lot of counting on the goodwill of others there, which, let's face it, is the exception, not the norm, in the real world or Zalanthas. Yes, join the Byn, young merchant. Soon, they'll have a strict no-merchant policy, because it's inconvenient that they can't fight, therefor, can't be -real- mercenaries, just like elves can't ride! Oh wow! See how the logic works there? Yes, let's apply OOC powergaming logic to IC situations, along with an admonishment to those that try to flaunt the system, and see what we get.

Anyway, tl;dr I disagree with your opinion.

I just read it will be optional. This I certainly don't mind, but I'd rather -existing- crafts stay just how they are. Also, crafting without the proper tools already turns into plenty of burnt materials, even at master, enough to frustrate someone to the point of ramming their head into a brick wall to relieve it (yes, that's where that gash came from, crafter-rage, step aside, muls). If tools are changed so that they no longer give a bonus to the appropriate crafting skills, I will be one sad panda.

[Nyr]

So, let me get this straight...there is to be recipes that require tools?

Possibly.  It is an optional thing.  It can be added in to existing crafts or added onto new crafts.  At this time there are 0 crafts that require tools using this method.

If so, with the current crafting system, how is this an improvement?

I understand your bigger question here is more "I don't like the current crafting system, so how does this help anyone at all?" than "wow, this blows, how is this an improvement?"  I'll answer the latter thing first:  this something that is optional that can be added to things that it would make sense to add it to, thereby enhancing the feeling of immersion.  However, it also isn't a requirement, and likely will be targeted (at first) towards things that make the most sense.  How about ceramics and pottery?  You want a pot thingy that has to be spun on that Ghost thingy, you need one of those Ghost things before you can make it.  Well, now we have both the clayworking skill (yay) and the possibility of "tool required" to make something.

If I type craft bone right now, with say, knifemaking, it says you can make a knife, it does not tell me that I could also make several other types of knives with that bone if I had other items...so, I assume that the crafting system is unchanged, so now items that require tools will not show unless you have that tool? Oh, great....let us add yet another component to any recipe.

You are correct, if the crafting system remains unchanged, it would not tell you if you could make other items...just like it does right now.  However, that particular suggested change is something discussed here.  Just to reiterate, what you are suggesting is not possible right now, so no, this new code does not specifically address this other thing that you would like to exist in-game.  No word on when that might come into play, but it is also something that has a proposal staff-side, and it has been discussed recently.

[X-D]

I understand your bigger question here is more "I don't like the current crafting system, so how does this help anyone at all?"

This is pretty close yes...though I do not dislike it currently so much as think it needs improvement to intuitiveness...if that is a word. And I think that with the current system adding "required" tools is going in the other direction from intuitive.

Just to reiterate, what you are suggesting is not possible right now, so no, this new code does not specifically address this other thing that you would like to exist in-game.  No word on when that might come into play, but it is also something that has a proposal staff-side, and it has been discussed recently.

Well, that is cool at least.

And to reiterate myself, in my first post I did put in a nice blue "currently", But maybe this is just the beginning of a revamp to a more intuitive and robust crafting system...if so, that would be sweet.

Oh, and as to tools degrading...Not a fan, but not a big deal either...long as it does not apply to all tools. I can think of several off hand that either should not degrade or degrade at such a slow rate as to not degrade. Others...well, sandpaper should only have a finite number of uses sure.

[Malken]

Some crafts have always required a tool as part of the "recipe", no?

I'm pretty sure I remember some craft examples in the craft helps that use a tool as part of the recipe..

[slvrmoontiger]

So, let me get this straight...there is to be recipes that require tools?

Possibly.  It is an optional thing.  It can be added in to existing crafts or added onto new crafts.  At this time there are 0 crafts that require tools using this method.

If so, with the current crafting system, how is this an improvement?

I understand your bigger question here is more "I don't like the current crafting system, so how does this help anyone at all?" than "wow, this blows, how is this an improvement?"  I'll answer the latter thing first:  this something that is optional that can be added to things that it would make sense to add it to, thereby enhancing the feeling of immersion.  However, it also isn't a requirement, and likely will be targeted (at first) towards things that make the most sense.  How about ceramics and pottery?  You want a pot thingy that has to be spun on that Ghost thingy, you need one of those Ghost things before you can make it.  Well, now we have both the clayworking skill (yay) and the possibility of "tool required" to make something.

If I type craft bone right now, with say, knifemaking, it says you can make a knife, it does not tell me that I could also make several other types of knives with that bone if I had other items...so, I assume that the crafting system is unchanged, so now items that require tools will not show unless you have that tool? Oh, great....let us add yet another component to any recipe.

You are correct, if the crafting system remains unchanged, it would not tell you if you could make other items...just like it does right now.  However, that particular suggested change is something discussed here.  Just to reiterate, what you are suggesting is not possible right now, so no, this new code does not specifically address this other thing that you would like to exist in-game.  No word on when that might come into play, but it is also something that has a proposal staff-side, and it has been discussed recently.

Nyr,

Based on what you are saying and my mis-reading of the topic in the beginning I think this is a good change. If I'm correct in what I'm thinking. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Basically my understanding now after reading your post is that this in no way changes crafting, just how tools work. This doesn't make it a requirement to use tools as I previously thought.

Thank You

[Fujikoma]

Yeah, what Slvr said. Fuck, I was quite worried there for a moment. Apologies for misreading.

[X-D]

I don't know how sly got that out of it.

It can be added in to existing crafts or added onto new crafts.  At this time there are 0 crafts that require tools using this method.

Bolded is the important part, it does indeed change crafts...IF it is added to them.

But, they can pick and choose and currently no crafts have it.


Hhhhmmm...So no, no current crafts are changed, all works as normal...but in the future.....

[slvrmoontiger]

I don't know how sly got that out of it.

It can be added in to existing crafts or added onto new crafts.  At this time there are 0 crafts that require tools using this method.

Bolded is the important part, it does indeed change crafts...IF it is added to them.

But, they can pick and choose and currently no crafts have it.


Hhhhmmm...So no, no current crafts are changed, all works as normal...but in the future.....

This is correct, so that is the time to complain, or not. For now the changes seem like good realism.

[Saellyn]

It's always time to complain about a change that adds realism but makes it harder on crafters.

Except I like this change.

[Fujikoma]

It's always time to complain about a change that adds realism but makes it harder on crafters.

Except I like this change.

You only like things that make things harder. If it had made something easier, or encouraged some kind of interaction in an isolated area of the game, a blood vessel would have burst in your head.

[deskoft]

I think tools should degrade with time (considering we actually have a time measurment system), based on how much time they realistically persist before turning useless or turn into a state where, if used, the tool breaks (antique objects). I'm not sure if there is, but time should really be appreciated IG (object-wise, construction-wise, etc). I think we could apply the time decayment or effects to almost everything (clothes shouldn't last a lifetime - I don't know if they do - and having some pair of shirts should be encouraged, maybe otherwise smelling). Once again, I believe that we should make time a realistic factor in the game, for certain items (without making it unpractical or a totally game-changing feature).

[Patuk]

I think many of the listed concerns are valid. Expanding the tool stock of both shops in the cities is going to be important.

[Lizzie]

Bracken - my concern with regards to tools was that using tool A didn't make sense to be effective when trying to make item B, but it was effective and in fact superior to using item C, which seemed a lot more appropriate.

For example

I'm whittling a small block of wood into a little carved-out erdlu.

I don't have a woodworking knife and can't find one anywhere in any shop, and the clanned crafter in the crafting house was using the only one left in the workshop and logged out still wielding it.

Our crafter hall does, however, have a saw - which works on woodworking.

It makes ZERO sense to use a saw on such delicate, intricate work. This isn't chainsaws carving out statues from tree stumps like in real life afterall, it's desktop carving of wood that's not much bigger than a textbook.

I DO, however, have a leatherworking knife and a hidescraper. Both are knives. Both have sharp edges. Both have handles. Both should be able to cut wood just fine, and make intricate etchings. But neither are "coded" to work on wood. Codedly, you get no bonus using them on wood.

So I'm stuck using a saw to carve a tiny hollowed statue, just because codedly, I can. Logically, this shouldn't be possible. Other players knew that saws were superior to woodworking knives and tried to insist to my character ICLy that I was supposed to use a saw. ICly - I knew I shouldn't be able to. ICly, my character would think those characters were off their rockers for even suggesting such a thing. Even OOCly I knew they were absolutely correct.

That is a very small nitpicky powergaming move, but it was an example of a whole bunch of very small nitpicky powergaming moves that were adding up and making me very frustrated at the time (like crafting a silk gown while standing in the latrines, not using any tools at all, just because you know that failure will make you improve).

That was my concern, and still is. With this new change, I'll be watching to see if this helps the situation, or makes it worse.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

As part of the continued incremental changes to crafting, crafting tools have received a little love!

 

• Change to allow for some optional values on a recipe for a tool type required and quality required.

I hope that this becomes the new status quo for clan specific items, rather than making them clan_tag required.  It's more realistic, and has the potential for far more conflict and merchant-wars than the OOC construct of requiring a clan_tag in order to make something.  It's absurd to me that you could make something one day from simple materials and tools, but suddenly be unable to the next because you were kicked from the clan.  Not having the rare and valuable tool to convert those materials into special goods is another matter, and is much more realistic.

For instance, if Kuraci raptor nuggets required a deep fryer tool that was typically only seen in the kitchens in House Kurac, then I'm cool with not being able to make them unless you had a deep fryer.  But if I managed to get said deep fryer, I should be able to make raptor nuggets despite not being in the clan.  Of course Kurac will come hunt me down and kill me for trying to butt into their raptor nugget monopoly...but that's the risk I took when stealing/mastercrafting the tool on my own.

On the other hand, I do NOT hope this becomes common place for independent craftable items, except for particularly rare or masterwork stuff.  It would just overly complicate the novice-advanced portion of this classes development, having tools provide a bonus makes it worthwhile enough to pursue them at these levels.

I like this idea a lot - instead of you having to be in the clan, you need the tool the clan uses, which has been engineered to the purpose. I like that an awful lot. However, I think all recipes above a novice level of craftsmanship should require a tool to create them. One way to make this easier for newbies and new merchants could be giving them a set of tools at chargen.

[Saellyn]

It's always time to complain about a change that adds realism but makes it harder on crafters.

Except I like this change.

You only like things that make things harder. If it had made something easier, or encouraged some kind of interaction in an isolated area of the game, a blood vessel would have burst in your head.

... You need to take a look at my posting history before you start making useless blanket statements about me based on my liking a singular change. Maybe you should go look in the banking thread.

[valeria]

I just hope that we're going to see a lot more player craftable, sensible, low-quality tools.  It doesn't take a genius in tool making to chip rock into something that scrapes or cuts, or to pick up a rock and use it to smash another rock into smaller pieces.  I used to do it for fun as a kid.

What I would really like out of this change would be the ability to try to craft something intricate with low quality tools and have a lot higher chance of failing and the tool breaking, rather than the inability to make something entirely, in the vast majority of situations.