Where Players Found Us: September 2014

[RogueGunslinger]

Just to add on to the above, because I agree it feels like staff has much less of a hand in scary events in general... But my favorite event recently involved just that. Staff basically setting up some raiders for the Byn to go kill and then FUCKING OUR SHIT UP.

It was great, honestly. And I can't imagine it was TOO taxing to set up.

[BadSkeelz]

That'd be for staff to say.

Staff might not be dropping a bunch of fire elementals in the room anymore or schooling you with their personal twink sorcerer, but they seem plenty happy to maul you if given a bit of forewarning.

[Nyr]

stuff

Not to trivialize what you are writing, I just need to indicate that I'm replying to you in particular here.

I don't think the slapdash depiction of how STs did stuff in the old days vs now is accurate.  That's because I feel like our storytellers are talented folks that are only getting better at coming up with stories to play with the playerbase, and I'm more than happy to defend their skills here and now against the imagined awesomeness of a different time in which there was less accountability and less communication.  I don't think we sacrifice storytelling for better communication tools and accountability.  "Both" is indeed possible and has been.

That's not to say that there are not lulls, whether imposed by other projects (which very often have plot-based elements included which allow for those things you want to see happen to happen) or by stuff outside of our control (limited staff resources or outside impact due to RL concerns) or even just by the fact that we might be between two particular plots, whether player or staff-led.

The social climate in both cities is ripe for someone who wants ultraviolence to actually cause it and/or partake in it.  Disparaging the players that play there is easy to do, I understand why that is a go-to reaction from some players.  Even complaints that things are boring, that's something understandable.  It's frustrating to everyone else that may not think so (or even to those that maybe DO think it's a bit slow now, but certainly not a barren wasteland of activity), of course, but it is understandable that you (or anyone) might express your dislike of a certain situation.  That goes with the expressed exaggerations, too--fair enough, poetic license is what it is.

Give me blood. Give me public torture. Give me frightening, unpredictable magick. Give me that sense that anything could happen, anywhere, at anytime.

To answer your question, Nyr - eat my brains!

I'm torn between replying with one of the two below quotes.

Sorry to disappoint.  We don't actually do anything fun in the game anymore.  This just isn't that kind of game--we would rather just resolve requests, load items, and tell players "no" repeatedly.

and

Challenge accepted.

I suspect eyes would be rolled at both for different reasons, so I'll go with neither.

The things that you desire can happen, have happened (even recently), and will happen (even soon) in the game.  I'm hopeful that you won't miss them when they happen again, but I'll understand if you miss out.

[Saellyn]

We all know Nyr is secretly replying with "Challenge accepted" and then handing it off to Nessalin to deal with...

[Malken]

Yeah, I don't know, being constantly cynic is getting tiredsome. I always loved Armageddon and maybe I just got burnt out too. I think listening to us players who constantly bitch about the good ol' days without replying in a jerk way is a good start and when all the bitching is done, we can look at Armageddon for what it is today and find something still to enjoy.

You argue, you fight, you get banned, you fill out a complaint about a Staff, you get told to hug and make up and then you play again with a smile. It's almost like family.

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah, I don't know, being constantly cynic is getting tiredsome. I always loved Armageddon and maybe I just got burnt out too. I think listening to us players who constantly bitch about the good ol' days without replying in a jerk way is a good start and when all the bitching is done, we can look at Armageddon for what it is today and find something still to enjoy.

You argue, you fight, you get banned, you fill out a complaint about a Staff, you get told to hug and make up and then you play again with a smile. It's almost like family.

If people want to bitch, they're going to bitch. That doesn't necessarily mean their bitching is justified or accurate. It's easy to set yourself up in an echo chamber of complaining, especially if you're not actively playing yourself and experience counter-examples to what you're hearing about.

[Talia]

I think for some players the pull of memory and nostalgia will always win over what's actually happening in game right now. Sometimes I feel like my own best times as a player are behind me, and then I tell myself: "Aww...fuck that!"

I agree with Nyr, there's no reason we can't be Storytellers who are good both at telling stories, and at being responsive to players and accountable to other staff. Funny enough, I get a lot more kudos from players when I approve their apps quickly or help them with a wish than I do for doing plot stuff. And I get a lot of "thank you for the encouragement" when I respond to reports. So...conclusion? I don't know. I guess I see my role as doing what is helpful to players, which is sometimes making a big story happen, and sometimes is other stuff in support of their roles and their stories.

Just to add on to the above, because I agree it feels like staff has much less of a hand in scary events in general... But my favorite event recently involved just that. Staff basically setting up some raiders for the Byn to go kill and then FUCKING OUR SHIT UP.

It was great, honestly. And I can't imagine it was TOO taxing to set up.

Um...yeah, no. When we run a plot, there is so much to do, you can't even imagine.

-- Write the backstory
-- Build NPCs
-- Build objects
-- Build rooms
-- Lay plot cues
-- Animate, animate, animate, ANIMATE in advance
-- Run the RPT

And then there's a whole administrative and communication side of things we need to do for a plot. I would guess that a "simple" plot still has dozens of hours of staff time invested in it. A few weekends ago when we had an RPT in Allanak, I would estimate that we spent probably a hundred staff hours on it that weekend alone; that doesn't count everything that was done in support of the plot and RPT up to that point.

So are we Storytellers? Yes, we are. Hey, one of my plots even made it onto the History page, so I feel pretty confident

[Reiloth]

I dare you to start playing again, Malken.

Double-dare.

[Saellyn]

All it takes is an hour a day.

[Malken]

I dare you to start playing again, Malken.

Double-dare.

Oh man, I didn't even lose any precious karmaz and I got two special apps that opened up. This is making it hard to resist.

[RogueGunslinger]

Just to add on to the above, because I agree it feels like staff has much less of a hand in scary events in general... But my favorite event recently involved just that. Staff basically setting up some raiders for the Byn to go kill and then FUCKING OUR SHIT UP.

It was great, honestly. And I can't imagine it was TOO taxing to set up.

Um...yeah, no. When we run a plot, there is so much to do, you can't even imagine.

-- Write the backstory
-- Build NPCs
-- Build objects
-- Build rooms
-- Lay plot cues
-- Animate, animate, animate, ANIMATE in advance
-- Run the RPT

And then there's a whole administrative and communication side of things we need to do for a plot. I would guess that a "simple" plot still has dozens of hours of staff time invested in it. A few weekends ago when we had an RPT in Allanak, I would estimate that we spent probably a hundred staff hours on it that weekend alone; that doesn't count everything that was done in support of the plot and RPT up to that point.

I'm not trying to trivialize the ammoutn fo work you put into the average event. My point here was I was referencing a seemingly simple plot that DIDN'T take as much as your average staff-run event does. (yes I know there was still a decent bit of setup for that particular event)

I suppose another example could be from further back: I had a PC in the militia and all the sudden weird red-skinned lizard-people started showing up, attacking people. I have no idea if that was part of a larger story, or had a purpose, but for me, it was just NPC's beign spawned and causing a ruckuss. And it was fun. And I hardly ever see stuff like that anymore.

Why can't a random bundle of Gith spring up from the sewers every now and again? You don't need some massive explanation and build up for something like that.

Or the fact that 9/10 scheduled travel trips for clans go off without a hitch. It shouldn't be so damn easy to get an Argosy across the known. You think Kadius would ever skimp on hiring the Byn for an escort if there was actually tangible danger every time they left in large packs?

What about animating a rogue band of ex-Tuluki soldiers who randomly decide to raid a 'nakki village.

I'm not saying these things don't sometimes happen, but it would be neat if they happened more often. They don't have to be overly complicated to be entertaining.

[Marauder Moe]

I've often felt that my best Armageddon days are behind me.

I've often been proven wrong.

[manonfire]

Not to trivialize what you are writing, I just need to indicate that I'm replying to you in particular here.

I don't think the slapdash depiction of how STs did stuff in the old days vs now is accurate.  That's because I feel like our storytellers are talented folks that are only getting better at coming up with stories to play with the playerbase, and I'm more than happy to defend their skills here and now against the imagined awesomeness of a different time in which there was less accountability and less communication.

I apologize if my depiction seemed slapdash. The immortals I've interacted with in the last couple years have been great, both in-game and out. I typed this up at work during a meeting I wasn't paying attention to, so I was a little hasty.

The awesomeness wasn't imagined. I lived it. My characters lived it. My Elkran had a library door scream at him. I've had elementals gnaw arms off my characters. I took part in a ritual that released the motherfucking Dragon. I watched a templar pry a steel shield off a wall. I've tracked talking tembos through alternate reality versions of the Grey Forest. I had a itsy, bitsy spider scare the living shit out of me and my character (I think that was you, actually).  I helped a sentient braxat destroy a gate. I watched a little girl Krathi leave a trail of molten glass footsteps through the desert. I've been chased through sewer tunnels by a shit horror.

I took part in some really incredible things in the 10+ years I've been here. 90% of those really incredible things were pre-2008. I was away from the game for 2 or 3 years because of the ban, and when I came back a couple years ago, the game felt fundamentally different. The tone seems softer, there's less antagonism, and the focus has seemed to shift away from the things that made the game memorable for me.

I'm not trying to disparage the talents of the current crop of storytellers (or even the previous generation), and I find it unfortunate that you think I am. Criticism, however constructive, is hard not to take personally.

I don't think we sacrifice storytelling for better communication tools and accountability.  "Both" is indeed possible and has been.

I don't think you do either. My real point is, the game feels different to me than it did in the past. Rose-colored glasses? Possibly.

We play Armageddon because it makes us feel a certain way. Armageddon doesn't make me feel that way it used to. It's as simple as that. My exposition is equal parts constructive criticism and trying to figure out, for my own sake, exactly why I feel this way. Maybe it's me - maybe the tone of game hasn't changed a bit, and my point of view is invalid because I'm the one who's changed. Who knows.

That's not to say that there are not lulls, whether imposed by other projects (which very often have plot-based elements included which allow for those things you want to see happen to happen) or by stuff outside of our control (limited staff resources or outside impact due to RL concerns) or even just by the fact that we might be between two particular plots, whether player or staff-led.

The social climate in both cities is ripe for someone who wants ultraviolence to actually cause it and/or partake in it.  Disparaging the players that play there is easy to do, I understand why that is a go-to reaction from some players.  Even complaints that things are boring, that's something understandable.  It's frustrating to everyone else that may not think so (or even to those that maybe DO think it's a bit slow now, but certainly not a barren wasteland of activity), of course, but it is understandable that you (or anyone) might express your dislike of a certain situation.  That goes with the expressed exaggerations, too--fair enough, poetic license is what it is.

It may be ripe from a staff perspective, but I suspect you've forgotten what it's like to be a player. From the top, you see every angle, every possibility, every interaction that could have developed into X or Y.

I don't have that luxury. Sometimes we want a plot presented to us, and to be taken along for a ride. I had this experience not long ago with a Gemmer of mine, and it was a great, great experience. But it felt like the exception, not the rule.

Challenge accepted.

No eyerolling whatsoever. I eagerly invite you to give my characters a bloody, hilarious death. It doesn't have to be part of some carefully scripted plot. You could fling 20 gith at the city walls for no reason other than it's fun, I'd throw my 4-hour merchant right back at them, and I'd giggle the entire way to the mantishead.

I hope you don't take any of this as negative. I just want that feeling back.

[Talia]

I hope you don't take any of this as negative. I just want that feeling back.

I hear you. I hope we can do that, very much! I would just ask players to be patient; we are only just now staffed up to full after quite a few months of not being full. And there is so much to get done. I know we have plans, and I'm really excited about stuff that...I can't talk about...but truly, there's cool stuff in the works.

[wizturbo]

Why can't a random bundle of Gith spring up from the sewers every now and again? You don't need some massive explanation and build up for something like that.

Or the fact that 9/10 scheduled travel trips for clans go off without a hitch. It shouldn't be so damn easy to get an Argosy across the known. You think Kadius would ever skimp on hiring the Byn for an escort if there was actually tangible danger every time they left in large packs?

What about animating a rogue band of ex-Tuluki soldiers who randomly decide to raid a 'nakki village.

I'm not saying these things don't sometimes happen, but it would be neat if they happened more often. They don't have to be overly complicated to be entertaining.

Yup, this kind of stuff would be fantastic.  Drop some random monsters in a cave, watch players get killed by them, or kill them and drag them back to their templar buddy to show off.  Drop a random metal/magick spoon in a ruins, watch PC's fight and murder over it.  There doesn't have to be some grand plot or background to it, in fact, sometimes the things that aren't explained end up building a greater story all on their own.

Doesn't even have to be combat or loot to be honest.  Drop an ancient, torn up scroll with some writing on it in an alleyway, and you've just created an adventure for the rinthi who picks it up, of finding a noble who might pay a reward for it.  Maybe it has something interesting written on it, or maybe its an old love poem to a long dead Lady Fancyskirts that has some comical value but nothing more.  Either way you've created a plot prop with minimal time investment.

[BadSkeelz]

The awesomeness wasn't imagined. I lived it. My characters lived it. My Elkran had a library door scream at him. I've had elementals gnaw arms off my characters. I took part in a ritual that released the motherfucking Dragon. I watched a templar pry a steel shield off a wall. I've tracked talking tembos through alternate reality versions of the Grey Forest. I had a itsy, bitsy spider scare the living shit out of me and my character (I think that was you, actually).  I helped a sentient braxat destroy a gate. I watched a little girl Krathi leave a trail of molten glass footsteps through the desert. I've been chased through sewer tunnels by a shit horror.

I took part in some really incredible things in the 10+ years I've been here. 90% of those really incredible things were pre-2008. I was away from the game for 2 or 3 years because of the ban, and when I came back a couple years ago, the game felt fundamentally different. The tone seems softer, there's less antagonism, and the focus has seemed to shift away from the things that made the game memorable for me.

It definitely sounds like the tone has shifted away from a high magick feel. (thank goodness)

And if you think you can go in to the sewers these days without being chased by a shit horror, Staff probably just don't know you're down there well enough in advance.

[Saellyn]

You assume you need staff to get chased by a shit horror <_<

[Rahnevyn]

I appreciate the feedback about not all plots needing a grand build-up and background; that's something I think we can definitely keep in mind. One of my most favorite animations, which turned into a plot, happened completely by chance last year because a player didn't react to an echo I sent them in a way I'd anticipated at all, so I had to scramble and improvise. It wound up actually being a very defining moment for that particular player's clan!

Also, not so long ago I actually did chase a bunch of you out of the sewers with a shit horror. So this stuff still happens, and we have fun making it happen. But it also takes work on our side, for sure. There's very little you can do well on staff in terms of animations/plots without spending an hour's worth of work at the bare minimum, including prep, events, and handling the aftermath. Luckily, right now we have a really big and awesome crew of Storytellers on board, so we'll have time to do more of this sort of thing.

We do need to consider the consequences and fallout of what we do as staff, though. For instance, not all players want to get killed in awesome ways, despite what we hear on the GDB. What's an awesome death to manonfire might well be unwelcome or even a staff complaint from somebody else. Some players enjoy seeing more high mystery and magickal plots out there, but others very much do not enjoy it, as anyone can see from reviewing the GDB archives of years gone by.

Beyond that, there's also consistency of the world we have to consider. Gith don't spring up from the sewers to rampage and then die just because; they aren't mindless orcs, and this isn't a hack and slash style setting where you should expect the staff to create baddies to kill for fun. Part of creating and maintaining an immersive world means that stuff has to make sense, and not be introduced just because it's cool or because a staff member was bored that day.

One of the toughest parts about being a staff member is trying to strike a balance between all of these competing forces in order to make the most people happy. I'd say we've been doing a good job lately, and there's always room for constructive feedback. Meanwhile, I really want to drop a teaser for some of the ideas for plots we've been kicking around even before this post, but I won't. Anyway, just wait and see. If you've been considering coming back, you should!

[Talia]

Rahnevyn just said everything I actually wanted to say but couldn't figure out how to type out.

[CodeMaster]

Rahnevyn just said everything I actually wanted to say but couldn't figure out how to type out.

I'm surprised you can even type lolololol

[nauta]

An observation that only staff are privy to is that many of the new character apps we get are quite awful; they show no evidence at all of having read any documentation, and very little ability to follow the directions on screen. So it's possible that there's some segment of potential players who we're just never going to bring along into the game. Then again, if we had a way for them to try the game out, maybe they'd then put some effort into a character app?

Just to pipe in, I probably was one of those, and here's my reasoning: I was curious what it was all about, and the amount of raw data to digest was EXTREMELY overwhelming, especially if it turned out that there were like 5 players or whatever.  There's a LOT of dead and dying muds out there, so I didn't want to put in the effort.  Solution for lazy bums? 

1. Pre-formatted characters would help.
2. An even more trimmed down newbie entrance hall, so you can get into the game right away.  (The current newbie hall would be for when, once you finally get into the game, you can then go back and be like: ok, let's figure this out, this is awesome.)

Perhaps this is all crazy talk, but it'd be nice to just be like: Enter your name.  Would you like the regular or highly curtailed chargen process?  Oh, highly curtailed?  Well, be prepared, go to HELPER chat a lot, and you'll die, but: Here's your background and description and all that jazz, and some clothes.  Bam, You're in the Gaj.

Anyway, probably a dumb idea.

[Harmless]

Give players two choices at character creation.

1.) Create a "real" character.
2.) Enter the game as an arena combatant using semi-randomly generated desc, background. Give them the ability to choose a race and such. Allow mantis and gith. Maybe allow muls for the cost of 2 or 3 tickets.
--Create a limit of three run throughs before the game forces experienced arena combatants to make a "real" character afterwards.
--After the player has played a real character, give them an "arena combatant" ticket to use for after they die.

Rinse and repeat. Also, give all old players 3 free arena combatant tickets when this feature is added.

kudos to nauta for stimulating me to suggest this.

[Talia]

Anyway, probably a dumb idea.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I think it's a good idea. It would take a lot of coding resources to implement, however. So it's not a short-term solution.

[Inks]

I just wanted to say I am enjoying this measured and sensible discussion.

Also stop trying to get the staff to animate the shit horror!!!

[Lizzie]

If Malken comes back I promise to write his next PC's mdesc for him. I will include the tapered waist and the flowing long hair, and he can grin boyishly at all the ladies in Tuluk once more.