Learning Non-Class Skills

[Majikal]

I've personally had a ranger that was granted disarm, bash, and kick with prolonged practice with master warriors over the course of some ic years. So it happens on a case by case basis from what I can figure.

[Malken]

I've personally had a ranger that was granted disarm, bash, and kick with prolonged practice with master warriors over the course of some ic years. So it happens on a case by case basis from what I can figure.

Yeah, how about you tell us when that happened. I seriously doubt you could still get this these days.

(especially with extended subguilds, the fact that you need major tradebacks of another skill and the fact that I really doubt any of the current staff (which is a good thing in my opinion) would simply just grant your character three extra offensive skills like that because you "trained" with "warrior masters")

[Kronibas]

I may be wrong, but in my entire Arm career, I don't think I've had any skills added.

I did have "steal" removed from the skill list of my first burglar because he had it in his background that he was too scared to steal (I must have been an adorable teenager) and all the crafting skills removed from my first long-lived leadership character, a Kadian merchant, who was a merchant by class.


I reviewed old e-mails not long ago and was embarrassed to read one where I was jealous of other characters getting a bunch of extra shit.  I was younger then and it seems incredibly silly to me now, but in a way I can see where the then-me was coming from, and that will always be a problem as long as there is a lack of standardization.  But I am not saying there should be standardization and believe that case-by-case alterations to skills are fine as long as partiality isn't shown.  Everyone who puts forth the extra effort should potentially be able to benefit from this, not just a few people who seem "worth" the time or trouble.

Like Delirium and RGS wrote, extended subguilds are an amazing addition to the game that allow people who have played the game for a long time to try new ideas with minimal staff help.  I agree that it would be really great to expand them.  I would rather have a dozen new mundane extended subguilds imp'd than the four sorcerer ones, even though they seem cool, too.

Including mundane extended subguilds that cost more than 4 CGP might be nice, too.  I would rather have half a dozen people using their karma to play suped-up mundane extended subguilds than magickers out in the middle of nowhere.

[Mooney]

...and I'm not sure what the game needs is for long-term, entrenched characters to be -more- effective/dangerous/etc.

I'd like that just for the sheer fun of some super-criminals arising! It's not like they could PK wantonly without admin response and as long as they were in that golden zone of troublesome, who knows what fun plotlines of being Zalanthas' Most Wanted could develop.

Ultimately though, I don't think there's a genuine risk of over-powered - not everyone who plays to live long does so with the intent of world domination, and there are plenty of direct IG ways to get there in a shorter amount of time. The rate of unlocking skills and caps would be so slow in fact that I do not see it significantly affecting players' decisions on whether to play recklessly or long-term either.

What potential I do love in this idea of unlocking skills is the layer of realism it adds to character growth.

If added at the very beginning, it expands the possible histories characters could have, enriching them with quirks like the 'rinthi that used to spy a bard's music lessons or a noble who as a naughty child used to climb things.

If added late in the character's life, it realistically allows a character's determination to steer his/her future. After all it doesn't make sense that a Bynner could train every day to rescue or disarm but never improve despite intelligent guidance and tips, because it was outside his/her guild. Personally, I've at times had to impose unplanned personality quirks to my character just to justify why s/he never seemed to learn.

I see the addition of karma-unlocking skills (however slow and small it may be) as adding to ARM's story weaving, making real the roleplay of apprentices, hobbies, inspired interests and dedication, so onwards with nurture over nature!

[Synthesis]

Uh, yeah...that would all be fine and good if the class system didn't also lock you into being able to learn things that your character might reasonably have no business learning at all, given their circumstances.  E.g. House-clanned burglars who play as aides or spies can still get really good at pickpocketing, even if the only experience they ever have using 'steal' is simply to max it out--then one day someone needs something stolen, and they're like "P.S. I can do that, bro" instead of having to hire an actual pickpocket who has a legitimate reason to be good at pickpocketing.

At any rate, "it makes sense IC" isn't usually a justification for implementing things that have the ability to upset class and subclass balance.  When you give someone a new skill, you not only make them more effective (whether that's being more dangerous or being more able to make 'sids or being able to travel better on their own, or whatever), you also decrease their need to interact with other PCs to get things done.  Some guild/subguild combinations are already very-near excessively insular (if a ranger/armorcrafter is talking to you, it's because they're bored, not because they need anything) or balance-tipping (I won't name them, but anyone experienced enough can guess what they are).

[Sephiroto]

When you give someone a new skill, you not only make them more effective (whether that's being more dangerous or being more able to make 'sids or being able to travel better on their own, or whatever), you also decrease their need to interact with other PCs to get things done.

We're talking about giving players the possibility to get pretty good at one skill per RL year of play, -if- they stay alive.  You make it sound like we're passing out skills like candy and suddenly everyone will be solo-twinking their way through the game.  At this point I'm not sure if you're trolling, but you've made it abundantly clear that you don't like this idea for reasons that shouldn't be a concern.

[Synthesis]

When you give someone a new skill, you not only make them more effective (whether that's being more dangerous or being more able to make 'sids or being able to travel better on their own, or whatever), you also decrease their need to interact with other PCs to get things done.

We're talking about giving players the possibility to get pretty good at one skill per RL year of play, -if- they stay alive.  You make it sound like we're passing out skills like candy and suddenly everyone will be solo-twinking their way through the game.  At this point I'm not sure if you're trolling, but you've made it abundantly clear that you don't like this idea for reasons that shouldn't be a concern.

I'm pretty sure that I said very few people would actually use it.  The problem is that, for the people that would use it, it wouldn't add anything to the game as a whole...it would just be yet another bonus for people who are already skill-maxed, rich, with plenty of connections.  Also, with the extended subguilds, you already have the ability to be much better at much more useful skills than in the last 15 years I've played the game...and people want -even more-.  It's the perfect example of power creep...some people are just never satisfied, and always want more/better.

[tortall]

I really don't see how adding a skill after the fact and using gcp(or whatever it's called) up on a -very- long lived PC is at all different from extended subguild? Peoples lives change and they learn things the player may not have originally intended them to learn when they were created. I think this might make for interesting progression and development of the characters.

[Synthesis]

First of all, I'm not entirely sold on the proposition that all of the extended subguilds are a good idea.

Second, you can already request to "progress" or "develop" your character...the staff typically seem to require you to sacrifice one of your existing skills, which obviously everyone hates, which is why this automated "spend cgp instead" idea came about in the first place.

Anyway...if you're six months in and you can't progress or develop your character by interaction with other PCs, store your freakin' character and create a new one, and next time try not to be so boring.

[Harmless]

I like the extended subguilds because we'll have a lot of people who have the same set of skills, at least, so that they can be compared and balanced to some degree. If we jump from that, immediately, to an automated system for customizing the skills, then before long nobody will be recognizeable as a certain combination of guild/subguild, and we won't know if the extended subguilds are balanced anymore, and people will be filing bug requests left and right for things that are being allowed on a one-time basis, etc.

If it is for utility skills, however, esp. crafting skills, then I don't care as much, obviously. The examples people gave in this thread all make sense and seem harmless. I would know what that is, of course....

[SmashedTregil]

I reread your post three times. I still dont understand what is it about.  So If I misunderstood, please forgive me. This is how I understood it ;

All guilds are balanced. If a guild is strong in one thing, it's weak in another.
Subguilds are balanced as well, because their standardized. So it's possible to have the same skills by multiple players, if they choose the same guild/subguild.
Choosing your own skills are unbalanced, because others wont have those skills and they will be filing bug reports, because ... because why?

If I'm totally off, could you please explain better?

[RogueGunslinger]

I think that might be what they're trying to say. But what we had was no more "balanced" than what we have now. It's just different, in my opinion. Some classes got stronger, others got weaker.

[Kronibas]

Second, you can already request to "progress" or "develop" your character...the staff typically seem to require you to sacrifice one of your existing skills, which obviously everyone hates, which is why this automated "spend cgp instead" idea came about in the first place.

I think sacrificing current skills is good.  But it would be best if there were some sort of heavy penalty, as in... You must sacrifice two or three for one, with the one at a lower cap.  Penalizing for the cross classing should definitely be important in thinking of this.  It shouldn't be an endless string of enhancements without sacrificing other abilities/knowledge. Maybe it would be more fair if penalties were somewhat standardized, even if this were a thing staff kept to themselves.  For all I know, this may already be the case.

And Synth, some of the subguilds are buff, no doubt.  Really, though, they still pale in comparison to the main guilds.  Ultimately, I think they allow characters who, while previously ICly appropriate for some clans but unable to join for coded reasons, better integrate with the world... and though I see what you meant previously by it making characters "too" independent, well... that's a valid concern, too, and in the end it's going to be up to the player to decide if they want to take full advantage of that or still take the time to incorporate other PCs when, codedly, they really don't have to.  It's sorta this way even now.

[Harmless]

All guilds are balanced. If a guild is strong in one thing, it's weak in another.
Subguilds are balanced as well, because their standardized. So it's possible to have the same skills by multiple players, if they choose the same guild/subguild.

Sort of. Guild to guild, and subguild to subguild, things aren't balanced. But, you can only make so many different combinations. Some combinations will be "stronger" than others, but people will learn what they are and use those more often than the weaker ones (barring those who intentionally choose a "weak" combo because of a specific utility skill they need, or for the concept to make the most sense.) The balance is decided by the community's use of the pre-set combinations.

Choosing your own skills are unbalanced, because others wont have those skills and they will be filing bug reports, because ... because why?

Unbalanced because then people will be able to enact secretive knowledge about certain skill combinations and allow for even more fiddling and tweaking with the system (than already exists) and gain coded advantages over other players, which will cause them to submit complaints in frustration as again and again, people mysteriously bend and break the rules of a RPI to win all the damn time.

[SmashedTregil]

What does this have to do with an RPI. If a character spends 8 years to get 'relatively' good at some particular skill. What's so non-RPI about it? If today, I decide to get into pottery. Odds are I will be at the very least a journeyman by the end of the year. I will most definitely be advanced in eight years, if I dedicate myself enough to it. Master, I dont know. That's iffy, that may require some innate talent, or at the very least focus, which I will lack since nothing in my life revolves around poterry. But I'll definitely know 85% of all that there is to know about it and will be able to do it well. How is this unrealistic?

If it's not about RPI, but about code balance. I can admit, there is concern. We dont want a mage knowing how to learn how to pick locks and kill us in our sleep. Except ... they can do that already, with an extended subguild. Considering the cost in SGP involved, one would require to be alive for ... many rl years, to really achieve a skill set that would be incredibly buff. In my personal opinion ... they deserve to have it.

This way, a player who chooses to stick to a role in a tribe, clan, or region with no one else there, just to keep the clan's theme, presence, region of the world, and visibility  thematically alive, is 'rewarded'. And becomes capable of branching out a tiny bit.

[Lizzie]

The coded skill lists are supposed to denote your character's capacity to learn this or that skill. If the skill isn't on the list, then the character doesn't have the capacity to learn it.

Some people just don't have the knack to do something.

Not everyone has the knack to skillfully apply a bandage with any hope of succeeding.

Some people are just naturally ungraceful, and therefore won't ever have hope of successfully sneaking/hiding.

Some people are just flat out not particularly perceptive, and simply can't notice shadows under bushes that might belong to a goudra.

Some folks, no matter how slender and graceful and lovely and perfect their fingers are, will never be able to efficiently smack the edge of a crude bone chisel into a large shard of flint, with any possibility of making anything other than a mess of stone dust.

They just don't have the knack for it.

I'm fine with the current options. If you want to learn a skill that isn't on your main skills list, then pick a subguild that has that skill on it. If, after a year, you feel your character has practiced enough to learn another skill - chances are - he knows HOW - but just doesn't have the knack to succeed at it. Let the staff decide the way they decide now - with a request.

[Synthesis]

Second, you can already request to "progress" or "develop" your character...the staff typically seem to require you to sacrifice one of your existing skills, which obviously everyone hates, which is why this automated "spend cgp instead" idea came about in the first place.

And Synth, some of the subguilds are buff, no doubt.  Really, though, they still pale in comparison to the main guilds.  Ultimately, I think they allow characters who, while previously ICly appropriate for some clans but unable to join for coded reasons, better integrate with the world... and though I see what you meant previously by it making characters "too" independent, well... that's a valid concern, too, and in the end it's going to be up to the player to decide if they want to take full advantage of that or still take the time to incorporate other PCs when, codedly, they really don't have to.  It's sorta this way even now.

The only major problem with the extended subguilds is that several of them offer major synergies with existing main guilds, such that the skill cap that would hamper the subguild skills' effectiveness with other classes is no longer a serious impediment.  This is also present to a smaller extent with the old subguilds, but obviously the extended subguilds make the choice much more compelling.  Some of the synergies are so good that it's very difficult not to just keep playing the same 2-3 race/class/subclass combination for every character you create that's intended to perform certain jobs--but that's kind of an aside to the argument in question for this thread.

To bring it back on track, I think allowing people to "fill in" the 1 or 2 semi-important skills that are lacking in the skillset they chose because of the above synergies that I've mentioned would really only exacerbate the problem of the synergies themselves.  I.e. it would make the choice to pick the synergistic combinations even easier, because now you have the long-term ability to add back the skills you forfeited for the synergy.

[Kronibas]

Not to derail too much, but I'm curious for a couple of examples of what seems maybe a bit too powerful to you.  If I were to guess, I'd say assassins or rangers with aggressor or warrior with outdoorsman.

[Synthesis]

I'm not going to get into specific details of min-maxing skill sets.

[Harmless]

Let's just say... I've gone through over 25 PCs, tried a lot of combos, and I know what my favorites are. They're a lot of other people's favorites. I have enough headaches thinking about how to pick a good combination, and I don't want to even think that there are further options for customization beyond that.

Marauder Moe has said it 100 times on this GDB, but restrictions foster creativity. Additionally, they foster teamwork and the like.

[Ourla]

I think sacrificing current skills is good.  But it would be best if there were some sort of heavy penalty, as in... You must sacrifice two or three for one, with the one at a lower cap. 

While I agree there should be some sort of sacrifice made, this strikes me as decidedly unrealistic from a roleplay standpoint.  People don't just forget one thing because they learn another. There's an almost infinite capacity to retain information IRL, so why shouldn't there by IG? When I had my son and learned an entirely new skill_mothering set, I didn't suddenly forget how to math or wipe my own ass.  If there's any sort of limit put on gaining non-class skill, it should be a time investment versus a skill investment; ie one skill available to apply for every 3 RL months after a character's generation, without having to give up anything already on your skills list.

[ShaLeah]

I've kind of stayed out of this because I believe that you should be able to 'learn' anything.

Just like anyone can learn all languages simply by being around them enough, you should be able to pick up things in game. Hell, I had one character who was a linguist and spoke 5 languages pick up a never heard 6th language on the day of her death. Learning shouldn't be exclusive to class, wisdom (sorry giants, your learning curve is gonna be sloooooooooooooooooow) maybe, but learning something in game should never have to added by staff, they should be earned or taught by a master.

I agree with Ourla in that you shouldn't sacrifice shit in order to learn something new too.

[KankWhisperer]

Might as well just have a classless system. Besides I don't think those blessed with high Karma need even more advantages.

[FantasyWriter]

It also needs to be considered that compared to real life, skills are learned -extremely- fast in the game.
PCs can master things in two or three game years that would take a lifetime in real life.

That being said, I wouldn't mind being able to get one new skill (capped at apprentice) or or one cap bump (one level-word) per RL year played.
New skills should also require in-game training from a master, reguardless of time played.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I've personally had a ranger that was granted disarm, bash, and kick with prolonged practice with master warriors over the course of some ic years. So it happens on a case by case basis from what I can figure.

Yeah, how about you tell us when that happened. I seriously doubt you could still get this these days.

(especially with extended subguilds, the fact that you need major tradebacks of another skill and the fact that I really doubt any of the current staff (which is a good thing in my opinion) would simply just grant your character three extra offensive skills like that because you "trained" with "warrior masters")

Must've been back in the good ol' days.

Last year, I asked for direction sense.  Some IC years for that character was over 20.  Character was made before extended subguilds, and before direction sense was added to normal subguilds.