Learning Non-Class Skills

[Sephiroto]

We've got extended subguilds and karma-related buy-ins for bumping skills at character creation.  What do you guys think about expending karma points toward unlocking new skills or slowly raising the maximum cap of ones you already have? 

What I had in mind was that it would cost 3 points to unlock a new skill with a very low cap, and then cost 1 point to raise a skill cap by 5 points.  At 1 point per month, this would mean it would take 1 RL year to go from the capacity to be a nobody at a skill, to the potential of being nearly advanced.  Obviously, magick and psionic skills would be out of the question and some limits would need to be imposed, but I think this could add even more diversity and fun to the game.

[Malken]

I'm all for rewards for those long lived characters and to give them something to "look forward" to code wise, when all of their skills have been maxed out.

[Pale Horse]

I've seen something like this happen, in the past, with particularly long-lived characters.  It only happened with a lot of interaction between Staff and said characters and was fairly rare.

Personally, I've always liked the idea of developing (limited) skills outside of a particularly guild, if sanctioned by Staff and with plenty of Role-Playing to bring it about IG.

[Malken]

I've seen something like this happen, in the past, with particularly long-lived characters.  It only happened with a lot of interaction between Staff and said characters and was fairly rare.

Personally, I've always liked the idea of developing (limited) skills outside of a particularly guild, if sanctioned by Staff and with plenty of Role-Playing to bring it about IG.

The problem with that is that, as you said, it was in the past, and I'm pretty sure it highly depended on which Staff you asked..

As an example, Sanvean was once nice enough to give me the armorcrafting skill when she and I realized that there was no way that my PC would ever be able to branch it without going through all kind of weird loops, even though he was working for Salarr.

I really don't think that something like that would happen now since everything seems much more.. Regulated.

[Dresan]

This doesn't seem like something the current staff would enjoy keeping track of, they seem pretty keen on reducing their work load after all.

I however can see them giving you a skill to train up to advanced in exchange for a special application. I might be assuming here but might be easier to add a single skill to an existing character then processing an entire skill/extended sub-guild/special app. Since we get only three a year that would limit the amount of skills a character can get, while at the same time making it worth while for longer lived characters. Keeping any skill you ask for (no magical skills) up to advanced ensures they won't totally be OP but still add a lot of flavor to your character.

On that same train of thought, we could also add an option for a modest stat boost to an existing character in exchange for a special application.

[Sephiroto]

This doesn't seem like something the current staff would enjoy keeping track of, they seem pretty keen on reducing their work load after all.

I would assume the bulk of this could be automated much in the way that extended subguilds and karma-based skill bumps could be automated.  Whether staff is able and willing to put trust in automated features like these is anyone's guess.

[tortall]

I'm all for this.

Though as others have reflected, I highly doubt this would be allowed.

[Fathi]

This is a cool idea and I was once blessedly allowed to learn some crafting skills on a combat-class PC after working in a merchant house for a long-ass time. It made sense and it was relieving during those times when crafter PCs were hard to come by to hire. I was also more than willing to give up some combat skill effectiveness in exchange given my character had been doing more politicking than hunting for a while.

That being said, I am not really so sure I'd like to see a system like this automated just because it brings up a few tough questions:

How and when would we decide someone had been learning a skill long enough to be granted it? People's definitions of what constitutes long-lived are pretty different. I don't consider a PC of mine long lived until they hit at least the year mark--some people say it's more like six months. And that's not even taking playtimes into account. Two people who play daily will have pretty different skill levels and amount of time played if one plays 2 hours a day and one plays 8 hours a day.

There's also the IC variances that would happen: getting lessons in a skill all the time vs. just trying to learn it on your own should impact how quickly one would be able to learn a skill outside one's regular skillset, too. And we'd have to take into account if a character was living and working in an environment that would be conducive or harmful to them learning the skill, as well.

This just seems like it would be impossible to automate in a way that would be fair and would likely still come down to staff judging it on a case by case basis, which is why we wanted an automated system to begin with.

Of course, if anyone has any ideas they think could balance all that, it'd definitely be something I'd be interested in seeing in the game.

[LauraMars]

I have always wanted a classless, Skyrim-esque skill system for Armageddon in which you can pick whatever path you want to take for your character and take it and grow in skill depending on what you choose to do. 

It is a wild dream of mine that will never come true.

[Fathi]

I have always wanted a classless, Skyrim-esque skill system for Armageddon in which you can pick whatever path you want to take for your character and take it and grow in skill depending on what you choose to do. 

It is a wild dream of mine that will never come true.

Yeah. It's a pie in the sky thing - it would involve such a complete restructure of the game that I don't think it could ever really work.

When I first started playing Arm, the guild system actually turned me off. I've always hated them. It would be nice if the skillsets in this game were more flexible, although the new subguilds go a long way toward fixing that at least.

It would be nice if some of the game's skills were divided into a category of like "General Skills" or something that any PC could eventually learn and become relatively adept at given time. Nothing too specialised, but just really basic levels of things like climbing, searching, cooking, maybe butchering animals for meat if not for pelts, etc.

Kind of like how anyone who practices enough can eventually pop the "ride" skill or an accent.

[MeTekillot]

[SmashedTregil]

I find the idea to be very interesting. Especially once the whole CGP thing gets implemented and using up a high karma role would consume CGP with them regenerating over a period of time. Having this automated feature would be awesome.  And it will not matter much how often a person plays, or for how long. Though if "necessary" it can be put in so this feature can be activated once every rl month.

So say, someone creates a mundane warrior/outdoorsman and has 6 Karma. That means upon creation, he spent 3 cgp for outdorosman and has 3 left. Upon playing, he decides to learn a new skill of armor crafting. He unlocks it at the cap of 10, and his cgp count is reduced to zero. Then, as the points regenerate over time, he spends them to increase the armorcrafting skill by 5 points, for every cgp he regenerates and uses up. 

Whether he plays a lot, or a little. Since the max cap is increasing by only 5 points, he 'has' to play out a gradual and slow improvement of it. And in a rl year, provided he chose to use up every cgp he regenerated (and assuming it's 1 per month. I forget now). He will be able to get his armor crafting skill to 70 (10+60). And of course, if once he's done doing all that, he dies to a tregil on steroids. He has 0 cgp to use to create his next character and he will be restricted to mundane class. Keeping the 'special'/high karma roles as rare as they should be. Yada, yada.   Overall, I like the idea. Though maybe limit the cap this feature can possibly raise to some kind of a plank that tends to be common to extended subguilds.

[Ourla]

Once, I asked Sanvean if my northern templar character could have feathercrafting so she'd have something to do with her hands while she sat around in meetings all day, and she gave me a magickal skill with a similar name by accident.

[Sephiroto]

I find the idea to be very interesting. Especially once the whole CGP thing gets implemented and using up a high karma role would consume CGP with them regenerating over a period of time. Having this automated feature would be awesome.  And it will not matter much how often a person plays, or for how long. Though if "necessary" it can be put in so this feature can be activated once every rl month.

So say, someone creates a mundane warrior/outdoorsman and has 6 Karma. That means upon creation, he spent 3 cgp for outdorosman and has 3 left. Upon playing, he decides to learn a new skill of armor crafting. He unlocks it at the cap of 10, and his cgp count is reduced to zero. Then, as the points regenerate over time, he spends them to increase the armorcrafting skill by 5 points, for every cgp he regenerates and uses up. 

Whether he plays a lot, or a little. Since the max cap is increasing by only 5 points, he 'has' to play out a gradual and slow improvement of it. And in a rl year, provided he chose to use up every cgp he regenerated (and assuming it's 1 per month. I forget now). He will be able to get his armor crafting skill to 70 (10+60). And of course, if once he's done doing all that, he dies to a tregil on steroids. He has 0 cgp to use to create his next character and he will be restricted to mundane class. Keeping the 'special'/high karma roles as rare as they should be. Yada, yada.   Overall, I like the idea. Though maybe limit the cap this feature can possibly raise to some kind of a plank that tends to be common to extended subguilds.

I think this is a very good working example of what I had in mind.  It is very moderate and shows how useful adding non-standard skills to our list can be, while also laying down the drawbacks and limitations.

There's also the IC variances that would happen: getting lessons in a skill all the time vs. just trying to learn it on your own should impact how quickly one would be able to learn a skill outside one's regular skillset, too. And we'd have to take into account if a character was living and working in an environment that would be conducive or harmful to them learning the skill, as well.

Fathi, I get what you're saying but I was humored when you mentioned some environments being non-conducive to a character's skill list.  If we go too far in that line of thought, then we would have to start docking skills or lowering caps on every PC grew up an orphan or was malnourished.  There would definitely be no warriors from the 'rinth, and no noble would ever learn direction sense.

I think that in order for this idea to make sense, we have to view it as using karma to expand on what your character can innately learn, not what it makes sense for them to learn.  What's karma for, right?  We already use it to bump skills on chargen for no logic reason, so why not use karma add or raise them as the character ages?

[FantasyWriter]

Once, I asked Sanvean if my northern templar character could have feathercrafting so she'd have something to do with her hands while she sat around in meetings all day, and she gave me a magickal skill with a similar name by accident.

So many good jokes there.
But they are all too IC for the GDB.

[Synthesis]

Meh, as proposed, this idea would have very little impact on the game.  Almost nobody lives long enough.  Only realistic point-spends on this would be to get crafting skills that are relatively high-yield at low levels, like armorcrafting or swordmaking.  Taking anything else, you'd simply be deluding yourself about the long-term benefits.

I suppose it would be kind of nice for people who never play karma-required races/classes and don't ever have any interest in the extended subguilds, but I suspect that population of players is very small.  (Noobs don't count, because the idea as proposed would require 3 cgp to get started, which assumes karma to start with.)

Edited to add:  actually, it would be really useful to immediately gain access to branched skills for primary classes that would theoretically automatically populate with the primary class's skill cap...not sure if it would be worth it for a powergamer who knows the system already, but I'm sure there are a lot of folks out there who take a lot longer than 3 months to branch certain primary class skills.

[tortall]

For me, it's pretty rare if my PCs last fewer than 6 months, so this would have a HUGE impact on my playing. Plus.... No interest in 90% of the karma roles.

[Synthesis]

Even at 6 months, your character would only get 2 extra novice skills, or 1 extra skill at apprentice.  I'm not sure how HUGE a difference that could even make.  I guess if you have a reasonable expectation of surviving RL years (ha) and have a lot of karma to start with, you could spend 4 cgp on an extended subguild, another 3 cgp on that skill you just gotta have, and 1 cgp to improve its initial cap.

At any rate, I'm a little concerned how the long-term upside potential could affect the overall game.  If everyone starts playing extremely cautiously because they want to take advantage of this sort of system, it might have some positive effects with respect to realistic roleplay (e.g. not taking stupid risks), but at the same time, that could get really boring and frustrating for folks who aren't content to play the game as 99% chatroom and 1% dungeon crawl.

[tortall]

that could get really boring and frustrating for folks who aren't content to play the game as 99% chatroom and 1% dungeon crawl.

The only difference would be that they had it no differently than they do now, but those that play characters who want to stay alive are more likely to learn new things. Just like people IRL. Those that take insane and life threatening ricks are less likely to live long enough to learn more.

[Delirium]

I'd like to see lots and lots and lots more different subguilds and extended subs.

It would help.

[RogueGunslinger]

Just saying: Extrended subguilds are amazing.

[Malken]

Just saying: Extrended subguilds are amazing.

Yeah yeah, you're currently playing a character with amazing stats and a great extended subguild, we get it by now 

[RogueGunslinger]

Just saying: Extrended subguilds are amazing.

Yeah yeah, you're currently playing a character with amazing stats and a great extended subguild, we get it by now 

It feel so nice Malken. I just wish to share in this feeling. Feel it with me. Feeeeel it.

[Narf]

Even at 6 months, your character would only get 2 extra novice skills, or 1 extra skill at apprentice.  I'm not sure how HUGE a difference that could even make.  I guess if you have a reasonable expectation of surviving RL years (ha) and have a lot of karma to start with, you could spend 4 cgp on an extended subguild, another 3 cgp on that skill you just gotta have, and 1 cgp to improve its initial cap.

There are some skills that are pretty good even at low levels.

Direction sense comes to mind.

[Synthesis]

Even at 6 months, your character would only get 2 extra novice skills, or 1 extra skill at apprentice.  I'm not sure how HUGE a difference that could even make.  I guess if you have a reasonable expectation of surviving RL years (ha) and have a lot of karma to start with, you could spend 4 cgp on an extended subguild, another 3 cgp on that skill you just gotta have, and 1 cgp to improve its initial cap.

There are some skills that are pretty good even at low levels.

Direction sense comes to mind.

Maybe there are a few that would be worth 3 months of cgp.  I'm not sure direction sense at 10 would be one of them, but anyway...what I'm saying is that consistently gambling away your cgp on relatively minor things is a risky proposition if you regularly play karma-required or extended-subguild roles.  The only people who would consider it to be worth it are the sorts who play very long-term, entrenched characters...and I'm not sure what the game needs is for long-term, entrenched characters to be -more- effective/dangerous/etc.

I'd be more favorably inclined if the menu of skills was limited to "utility" skills (climb, scan, listen, direction sense, bandaging, haggle, etc.) and maybe some of the minor crafting skills (tanning, dyeing, bandagemaking, featherworking, etc.).  It might also be useful for languages and accents.  Even then, I'm not so sure, because -lack- of the ability to do something often creates just as much interaction (if not more) than having the ability to do it, and this isn't a single-player game.

[Majikal]

I've personally had a ranger that was granted disarm, bash, and kick with prolonged practice with master warriors over the course of some ic years. So it happens on a case by case basis from what I can figure.

[Malken]

I've personally had a ranger that was granted disarm, bash, and kick with prolonged practice with master warriors over the course of some ic years. So it happens on a case by case basis from what I can figure.

Yeah, how about you tell us when that happened. I seriously doubt you could still get this these days.

(especially with extended subguilds, the fact that you need major tradebacks of another skill and the fact that I really doubt any of the current staff (which is a good thing in my opinion) would simply just grant your character three extra offensive skills like that because you "trained" with "warrior masters")

[Kronibas]

I may be wrong, but in my entire Arm career, I don't think I've had any skills added.

I did have "steal" removed from the skill list of my first burglar because he had it in his background that he was too scared to steal (I must have been an adorable teenager) and all the crafting skills removed from my first long-lived leadership character, a Kadian merchant, who was a merchant by class.


I reviewed old e-mails not long ago and was embarrassed to read one where I was jealous of other characters getting a bunch of extra shit.  I was younger then and it seems incredibly silly to me now, but in a way I can see where the then-me was coming from, and that will always be a problem as long as there is a lack of standardization.  But I am not saying there should be standardization and believe that case-by-case alterations to skills are fine as long as partiality isn't shown.  Everyone who puts forth the extra effort should potentially be able to benefit from this, not just a few people who seem "worth" the time or trouble.

Like Delirium and RGS wrote, extended subguilds are an amazing addition to the game that allow people who have played the game for a long time to try new ideas with minimal staff help.  I agree that it would be really great to expand them.  I would rather have a dozen new mundane extended subguilds imp'd than the four sorcerer ones, even though they seem cool, too.

Including mundane extended subguilds that cost more than 4 CGP might be nice, too.  I would rather have half a dozen people using their karma to play suped-up mundane extended subguilds than magickers out in the middle of nowhere.

[Mooney]

...and I'm not sure what the game needs is for long-term, entrenched characters to be -more- effective/dangerous/etc.

I'd like that just for the sheer fun of some super-criminals arising! It's not like they could PK wantonly without admin response and as long as they were in that golden zone of troublesome, who knows what fun plotlines of being Zalanthas' Most Wanted could develop.

Ultimately though, I don't think there's a genuine risk of over-powered - not everyone who plays to live long does so with the intent of world domination, and there are plenty of direct IG ways to get there in a shorter amount of time. The rate of unlocking skills and caps would be so slow in fact that I do not see it significantly affecting players' decisions on whether to play recklessly or long-term either.

What potential I do love in this idea of unlocking skills is the layer of realism it adds to character growth.

If added at the very beginning, it expands the possible histories characters could have, enriching them with quirks like the 'rinthi that used to spy a bard's music lessons or a noble who as a naughty child used to climb things.

If added late in the character's life, it realistically allows a character's determination to steer his/her future. After all it doesn't make sense that a Bynner could train every day to rescue or disarm but never improve despite intelligent guidance and tips, because it was outside his/her guild. Personally, I've at times had to impose unplanned personality quirks to my character just to justify why s/he never seemed to learn.

I see the addition of karma-unlocking skills (however slow and small it may be) as adding to ARM's story weaving, making real the roleplay of apprentices, hobbies, inspired interests and dedication, so onwards with nurture over nature!

[Synthesis]

Uh, yeah...that would all be fine and good if the class system didn't also lock you into being able to learn things that your character might reasonably have no business learning at all, given their circumstances.  E.g. House-clanned burglars who play as aides or spies can still get really good at pickpocketing, even if the only experience they ever have using 'steal' is simply to max it out--then one day someone needs something stolen, and they're like "P.S. I can do that, bro" instead of having to hire an actual pickpocket who has a legitimate reason to be good at pickpocketing.

At any rate, "it makes sense IC" isn't usually a justification for implementing things that have the ability to upset class and subclass balance.  When you give someone a new skill, you not only make them more effective (whether that's being more dangerous or being more able to make 'sids or being able to travel better on their own, or whatever), you also decrease their need to interact with other PCs to get things done.  Some guild/subguild combinations are already very-near excessively insular (if a ranger/armorcrafter is talking to you, it's because they're bored, not because they need anything) or balance-tipping (I won't name them, but anyone experienced enough can guess what they are).

[Sephiroto]

When you give someone a new skill, you not only make them more effective (whether that's being more dangerous or being more able to make 'sids or being able to travel better on their own, or whatever), you also decrease their need to interact with other PCs to get things done.

We're talking about giving players the possibility to get pretty good at one skill per RL year of play, -if- they stay alive.  You make it sound like we're passing out skills like candy and suddenly everyone will be solo-twinking their way through the game.  At this point I'm not sure if you're trolling, but you've made it abundantly clear that you don't like this idea for reasons that shouldn't be a concern.

[Synthesis]

When you give someone a new skill, you not only make them more effective (whether that's being more dangerous or being more able to make 'sids or being able to travel better on their own, or whatever), you also decrease their need to interact with other PCs to get things done.

We're talking about giving players the possibility to get pretty good at one skill per RL year of play, -if- they stay alive.  You make it sound like we're passing out skills like candy and suddenly everyone will be solo-twinking their way through the game.  At this point I'm not sure if you're trolling, but you've made it abundantly clear that you don't like this idea for reasons that shouldn't be a concern.

I'm pretty sure that I said very few people would actually use it.  The problem is that, for the people that would use it, it wouldn't add anything to the game as a whole...it would just be yet another bonus for people who are already skill-maxed, rich, with plenty of connections.  Also, with the extended subguilds, you already have the ability to be much better at much more useful skills than in the last 15 years I've played the game...and people want -even more-.  It's the perfect example of power creep...some people are just never satisfied, and always want more/better.

[tortall]

I really don't see how adding a skill after the fact and using gcp(or whatever it's called) up on a -very- long lived PC is at all different from extended subguild? Peoples lives change and they learn things the player may not have originally intended them to learn when they were created. I think this might make for interesting progression and development of the characters.

[Synthesis]

First of all, I'm not entirely sold on the proposition that all of the extended subguilds are a good idea.

Second, you can already request to "progress" or "develop" your character...the staff typically seem to require you to sacrifice one of your existing skills, which obviously everyone hates, which is why this automated "spend cgp instead" idea came about in the first place.

Anyway...if you're six months in and you can't progress or develop your character by interaction with other PCs, store your freakin' character and create a new one, and next time try not to be so boring.

[Harmless]

I like the extended subguilds because we'll have a lot of people who have the same set of skills, at least, so that they can be compared and balanced to some degree. If we jump from that, immediately, to an automated system for customizing the skills, then before long nobody will be recognizeable as a certain combination of guild/subguild, and we won't know if the extended subguilds are balanced anymore, and people will be filing bug requests left and right for things that are being allowed on a one-time basis, etc.

If it is for utility skills, however, esp. crafting skills, then I don't care as much, obviously. The examples people gave in this thread all make sense and seem harmless. I would know what that is, of course....

[SmashedTregil]

I reread your post three times. I still dont understand what is it about.  So If I misunderstood, please forgive me. This is how I understood it ;

All guilds are balanced. If a guild is strong in one thing, it's weak in another.
Subguilds are balanced as well, because their standardized. So it's possible to have the same skills by multiple players, if they choose the same guild/subguild.
Choosing your own skills are unbalanced, because others wont have those skills and they will be filing bug reports, because ... because why?

If I'm totally off, could you please explain better?

[RogueGunslinger]

I think that might be what they're trying to say. But what we had was no more "balanced" than what we have now. It's just different, in my opinion. Some classes got stronger, others got weaker.

[Kronibas]

Second, you can already request to "progress" or "develop" your character...the staff typically seem to require you to sacrifice one of your existing skills, which obviously everyone hates, which is why this automated "spend cgp instead" idea came about in the first place.

I think sacrificing current skills is good.  But it would be best if there were some sort of heavy penalty, as in... You must sacrifice two or three for one, with the one at a lower cap.  Penalizing for the cross classing should definitely be important in thinking of this.  It shouldn't be an endless string of enhancements without sacrificing other abilities/knowledge. Maybe it would be more fair if penalties were somewhat standardized, even if this were a thing staff kept to themselves.  For all I know, this may already be the case.

And Synth, some of the subguilds are buff, no doubt.  Really, though, they still pale in comparison to the main guilds.  Ultimately, I think they allow characters who, while previously ICly appropriate for some clans but unable to join for coded reasons, better integrate with the world... and though I see what you meant previously by it making characters "too" independent, well... that's a valid concern, too, and in the end it's going to be up to the player to decide if they want to take full advantage of that or still take the time to incorporate other PCs when, codedly, they really don't have to.  It's sorta this way even now.

[Harmless]

All guilds are balanced. If a guild is strong in one thing, it's weak in another.
Subguilds are balanced as well, because their standardized. So it's possible to have the same skills by multiple players, if they choose the same guild/subguild.

Sort of. Guild to guild, and subguild to subguild, things aren't balanced. But, you can only make so many different combinations. Some combinations will be "stronger" than others, but people will learn what they are and use those more often than the weaker ones (barring those who intentionally choose a "weak" combo because of a specific utility skill they need, or for the concept to make the most sense.) The balance is decided by the community's use of the pre-set combinations.

Choosing your own skills are unbalanced, because others wont have those skills and they will be filing bug reports, because ... because why?

Unbalanced because then people will be able to enact secretive knowledge about certain skill combinations and allow for even more fiddling and tweaking with the system (than already exists) and gain coded advantages over other players, which will cause them to submit complaints in frustration as again and again, people mysteriously bend and break the rules of a RPI to win all the damn time.

[SmashedTregil]

What does this have to do with an RPI. If a character spends 8 years to get 'relatively' good at some particular skill. What's so non-RPI about it? If today, I decide to get into pottery. Odds are I will be at the very least a journeyman by the end of the year. I will most definitely be advanced in eight years, if I dedicate myself enough to it. Master, I dont know. That's iffy, that may require some innate talent, or at the very least focus, which I will lack since nothing in my life revolves around poterry. But I'll definitely know 85% of all that there is to know about it and will be able to do it well. How is this unrealistic?

If it's not about RPI, but about code balance. I can admit, there is concern. We dont want a mage knowing how to learn how to pick locks and kill us in our sleep. Except ... they can do that already, with an extended subguild. Considering the cost in SGP involved, one would require to be alive for ... many rl years, to really achieve a skill set that would be incredibly buff. In my personal opinion ... they deserve to have it.

This way, a player who chooses to stick to a role in a tribe, clan, or region with no one else there, just to keep the clan's theme, presence, region of the world, and visibility  thematically alive, is 'rewarded'. And becomes capable of branching out a tiny bit.

[Lizzie]

The coded skill lists are supposed to denote your character's capacity to learn this or that skill. If the skill isn't on the list, then the character doesn't have the capacity to learn it.

Some people just don't have the knack to do something.

Not everyone has the knack to skillfully apply a bandage with any hope of succeeding.

Some people are just naturally ungraceful, and therefore won't ever have hope of successfully sneaking/hiding.

Some people are just flat out not particularly perceptive, and simply can't notice shadows under bushes that might belong to a goudra.

Some folks, no matter how slender and graceful and lovely and perfect their fingers are, will never be able to efficiently smack the edge of a crude bone chisel into a large shard of flint, with any possibility of making anything other than a mess of stone dust.

They just don't have the knack for it.

I'm fine with the current options. If you want to learn a skill that isn't on your main skills list, then pick a subguild that has that skill on it. If, after a year, you feel your character has practiced enough to learn another skill - chances are - he knows HOW - but just doesn't have the knack to succeed at it. Let the staff decide the way they decide now - with a request.

[Synthesis]

Second, you can already request to "progress" or "develop" your character...the staff typically seem to require you to sacrifice one of your existing skills, which obviously everyone hates, which is why this automated "spend cgp instead" idea came about in the first place.

And Synth, some of the subguilds are buff, no doubt.  Really, though, they still pale in comparison to the main guilds.  Ultimately, I think they allow characters who, while previously ICly appropriate for some clans but unable to join for coded reasons, better integrate with the world... and though I see what you meant previously by it making characters "too" independent, well... that's a valid concern, too, and in the end it's going to be up to the player to decide if they want to take full advantage of that or still take the time to incorporate other PCs when, codedly, they really don't have to.  It's sorta this way even now.

The only major problem with the extended subguilds is that several of them offer major synergies with existing main guilds, such that the skill cap that would hamper the subguild skills' effectiveness with other classes is no longer a serious impediment.  This is also present to a smaller extent with the old subguilds, but obviously the extended subguilds make the choice much more compelling.  Some of the synergies are so good that it's very difficult not to just keep playing the same 2-3 race/class/subclass combination for every character you create that's intended to perform certain jobs--but that's kind of an aside to the argument in question for this thread.

To bring it back on track, I think allowing people to "fill in" the 1 or 2 semi-important skills that are lacking in the skillset they chose because of the above synergies that I've mentioned would really only exacerbate the problem of the synergies themselves.  I.e. it would make the choice to pick the synergistic combinations even easier, because now you have the long-term ability to add back the skills you forfeited for the synergy.

[Kronibas]

Not to derail too much, but I'm curious for a couple of examples of what seems maybe a bit too powerful to you.  If I were to guess, I'd say assassins or rangers with aggressor or warrior with outdoorsman.

[Synthesis]

I'm not going to get into specific details of min-maxing skill sets.

[Harmless]

Let's just say... I've gone through over 25 PCs, tried a lot of combos, and I know what my favorites are. They're a lot of other people's favorites. I have enough headaches thinking about how to pick a good combination, and I don't want to even think that there are further options for customization beyond that.

Marauder Moe has said it 100 times on this GDB, but restrictions foster creativity. Additionally, they foster teamwork and the like.

[Ourla]

I think sacrificing current skills is good.  But it would be best if there were some sort of heavy penalty, as in... You must sacrifice two or three for one, with the one at a lower cap. 

While I agree there should be some sort of sacrifice made, this strikes me as decidedly unrealistic from a roleplay standpoint.  People don't just forget one thing because they learn another. There's an almost infinite capacity to retain information IRL, so why shouldn't there by IG? When I had my son and learned an entirely new skill_mothering set, I didn't suddenly forget how to math or wipe my own ass.  If there's any sort of limit put on gaining non-class skill, it should be a time investment versus a skill investment; ie one skill available to apply for every 3 RL months after a character's generation, without having to give up anything already on your skills list.

[ShaLeah]

I've kind of stayed out of this because I believe that you should be able to 'learn' anything.

Just like anyone can learn all languages simply by being around them enough, you should be able to pick up things in game. Hell, I had one character who was a linguist and spoke 5 languages pick up a never heard 6th language on the day of her death. Learning shouldn't be exclusive to class, wisdom (sorry giants, your learning curve is gonna be sloooooooooooooooooow) maybe, but learning something in game should never have to added by staff, they should be earned or taught by a master.

I agree with Ourla in that you shouldn't sacrifice shit in order to learn something new too.

[KankWhisperer]

Might as well just have a classless system. Besides I don't think those blessed with high Karma need even more advantages.

[FantasyWriter]

It also needs to be considered that compared to real life, skills are learned -extremely- fast in the game.
PCs can master things in two or three game years that would take a lifetime in real life.

That being said, I wouldn't mind being able to get one new skill (capped at apprentice) or or one cap bump (one level-word) per RL year played.
New skills should also require in-game training from a master, reguardless of time played.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I've personally had a ranger that was granted disarm, bash, and kick with prolonged practice with master warriors over the course of some ic years. So it happens on a case by case basis from what I can figure.

Yeah, how about you tell us when that happened. I seriously doubt you could still get this these days.

(especially with extended subguilds, the fact that you need major tradebacks of another skill and the fact that I really doubt any of the current staff (which is a good thing in my opinion) would simply just grant your character three extra offensive skills like that because you "trained" with "warrior masters")

Must've been back in the good ol' days.

Last year, I asked for direction sense.  Some IC years for that character was over 20.  Character was made before extended subguilds, and before direction sense was added to normal subguilds.

[Lizzie]

I think sacrificing current skills is good.  But it would be best if there were some sort of heavy penalty, as in... You must sacrifice two or three for one, with the one at a lower cap.  

While I agree there should be some sort of sacrifice made, this strikes me as decidedly unrealistic from a roleplay standpoint.  People don't just forget one thing because they learn another. There's an almost infinite capacity to retain information IRL, so why shouldn't there by IG? When I had my son and learned an entirely new skill_mothering set, I didn't suddenly forget how to math or wipe my own ass.  If there's any sort of limit put on gaining non-class skill, it should be a time investment versus a skill investment; ie one skill available to apply for every 3 RL months after a character's generation, without having to give up anything already on your skills list.

Using your example - yes, you unlocked skill_mothering, when you had your child. But not all mothers unlock that skill. Some women do not, and will not, ever have skill_mothering, no matter how many kids they have.

In the same vein, not all characters have the ability to unlock certain skills, which is why we have guilds and subguilds, and not a free-for-all smorgasbord.

[Sephiroto]

Lizzie, you're correct that guilds and subguilds dictate natural talent and that some people just can't stuff.  However, the whole point is that karma allows the illogical to occur, like beefing skills on character creation or the unlocking of extra-powerful guilds.  There's a lot of talk about how this new feature could throw balance of the game negatively.  So, consider this:

If people spend more karma points adding tiny bumps to skills or unlocking new skills over the course of their PC's life, then that means more players will be restricted to low or no karma guilds because they'll have less karma to spend on their next PC.  I think that this is something many of the oldschool players can get behind, because it makes magickers and muls more rare than they are now.  It also means that the ones that do exist, will be more infamous.  I think that's how it should be.

Also, the potential to become advanced in a single skill over a RL year isn't what I'd call a free-for-all smorgasbord.  Bias aside, I think it sounds very moderate.

[Delirium]

Completely agree with the above post.

I'm all for breaking down some of the rigid class barriers regardless.

Right now it is still too easy to get guild sniffed.

[Harmless]

Funnily, as this thread matured, and as I played the game more, the more I want the feature. I revise all my earlier opinions to simply agree with Sephiroto's idea completely.

[RogueGunslinger]

Eh. I'm pretty much 100% with Synth in that I'd rather an extended subguild for my next character than a skill-bump or addition for my current one.