Hello, my name is stealth skills and golly I irk Kryos

[Kryos]

Its true, stealth skills really do irk me.  Its been talked about before, but I'd love to hash this out.

Hide is one of those things that at present, makes me want to spear-tackle people daring to come to close to my lawn.  At present, you hide, and suddenly you are invisible to the entire world.

Hiding like that should be reasonably difficult to do, if remaining stationary.  Playing hide and seek out in the wilds of Canada as a kid, its plausible to find a good hiding spot and elude searchers for a good long time.

That being said, when someone IS looking for you, say, because you are typing 'steal x' in rapid succession, life gets really hard.  You will be found, its a matter of time.

Sneak is pretty cool.

Its reasonable to not stomp along and rather, try to be as quiet as possible and even pull it off in the right environments.  Getting right next to someone without them noticing you though, is a stroke of luck or genius unless the environment is friendly towards that.

I think it would be boss if:

Base functionality of hide becomes hide from <x>, where you try to avoid detection from a specific person and their group.  This is easier to accomplish than . . .

Hide all.  In a room that has good hiding spots (under the deck was one of my favorites, behind paired pillars to bllock LoS), this should be reasonable.  In the Gaj?  Not so much.  Hide all can be switched to hide from x if someone plods into the area you're skulking about in.  Good hiders can hide from more x's then bad hiders.

Hiding while moving:

Should be hard, and take a long, long time.  Trying to avoid detection while moving is fraggin' hard (I crept along the rock line at the lakes shore, slipping under the water when there was no cover).  But in open terrain or a city street, hiding from everyone(same room) and moving . . . is the act of a demi-god.

Lastly,

Everyone and their mother should have some sort of base 'searching' functionality to try and pinpoint people they've been alerted to in their area.  It's sort of absurd that people can't look for that pickpocket constantly tugging on their pockets or that guy that accidentally farted in the corner.

Scan can probably stay as it is.  You are actively looking in the hidey holes and likely points for something/someone lurking.  Though I'd love a sub guild like:  City-Soldier that gives scan, a good subdue or subdue+, and a skill that lets you examine people's worn containers and gear for that illegeal stuff they are always carrying around.

Mashing things up like this I think would help enjoyment and feasibility factors regarding these skills, and maybe make playing a skulker enhance the feeling of ninjaness and tension.

Note how I try to avoid talk about existing mechanics and guilds as much as is feasible when discussing this topic.  Its on purpose.

[Nyr]

At present, you hide, and suddenly you are invisible to the entire world.

Untrue.  You are hidden. You can be detected.  There is another ability that can be used to detect hidden people called "scan."  If you do not pick a guild or subguild with scan, you can depend on people with it in order to find hidden people.  You can also wait for the hidden person to show themselves, because most actions tend to reveal the hider.

Getting right next to someone without them noticing you though, is a stroke of luck or genius unless the environment is friendly towards that.

It's not a stroke of luck or genius, it is a matter of guilds, subguilds, and skill training having consequences in the game.  You can't be all things.  You will suck at something.  You may suck at a lot of things.  You may have written into your PC's background that she's a good listener and can cast spells, but if you didn't pick a guild that casts spells or a subguild that gets listen, you're going to be disappointed.

I think it would be boss if:

Base functionality of hide becomes hide from <x>, where you try to avoid detection from a specific person and their group.

How do you know who you're hiding from?  If you're trying to avoid detection, aren't you "trying to avoid detection?"  We don't have IFF tags here.

Hide all.  In a room that has good hiding spots (under the deck was one of my favorites, behind paired pillars to bllock LoS), this should be reasonable.  In the Gaj?  Not so much.  Hide all can be switched to hide from x if someone plods into the area you're skulking about in.  Good hiders can hide from more x's then bad hiders.

Just like city hunt isn't "tracking" inside the city, city hide isn't "ermegherd, im invizuhbull" inside a populated area.  When I've played sneakies (and when I've seen others play sneakies), this is represented by hemotes indicating that they're blending in with the natural movement in the area or avoiding notice by not drawing attention to themselves.  If you've ever played Asassin's Creed games, there's a similar feature.  You see groups of people moving and you move along with them.  To prying eyes and authorities, they generally view you as "part of the group."  With a mastered hide skill, you're using your surroundings to your advantage, wherever you might be.

Hiding while moving:

Should be hard, and take a long, long time.  Trying to avoid detection while moving is fraggin' hard (I crept along the rock line at the lakes shore, slipping under the water when there was no cover).  But in open terrain or a city street, hiding from everyone(same room) and moving . . . is the act of a demi-god.

See above for inside a city.  It's not the act of a demi-god.  As for in the wilderness, if there is literally nothing to hide behind and it is entirely flat (salt flats, perhaps), it could be neat to make it impossible to hide unless it is dark or unless you are wearing clothing that camouflages you better with those surroundings.  I don't know how feasible that would be to code considering there are very few places in the game where this would be the case.  It'd be better to flesh out the roleplay involved in those rare scenarios.

Everyone and their mother should have some sort of base 'searching' functionality to try and pinpoint people they've been alerted to in their area.  It's sort of absurd that people can't look for that pickpocket constantly tugging on their pockets or that guy that accidentally farted in the corner.

Guild and subguild choices have consequences.  Everyone can't be everything.  It takes a thief to catch a thief, or at least a thief-catcher to catch a thief.

Scan can probably stay as it is.  You are actively looking in the hidey holes and likely points for something/someone lurking.  Though I'd love a sub guild like:  City-Soldier that gives scan, a good subdue or subdue+, and a skill that lets you examine people's worn containers and gear for that illegeal stuff they are always carrying around.

Between guild and subguild and even extended subguild choice, a city soldier has all of the above at their fingertips if they want it for a new character.

[Desertman]

Stealth skills are not realistic and overpowered.

I agree with you. Stealth skills are pretty dang unrealistic in some situations in the game. To the point that you sit and think, "In real life, you could probably NEVER do that without being seen."

Now, I'm not trying to be a smartass, but....

Warriors can kill mekillots and gajack beetles, dino's that would make a T-Rex shit its pants.....with bone swords....by themselves....

We have people that throw fire from their hands.

Taking that into consideration, I think it is pretty balanced.

[MeTekillot]

Balance should not be the focus of a roleplay-centric game.

[Marc]

Code discussion forum: 

Without being too specific are there more variables that effect hide vs scan?
Items with +scan vs items with +hide?
Attributes affecting scan vs those affecting hide?
etc etc

[boog]

Yeah. There's a fine line between enough realism and too much realism. I think hide is fine as it is.

[Scarecrow]

I think it's unrealistic someone could hide in an apartment. Even if you don't havr a scan, if someone decided to actively look, there is only so many places you can hide in a room, right? Should make a special rule for apartments and inside buildings. City streets are different, VNPC crowds and whatnot provide cover to mingle and follow. Inside a small, one-room apartment? No, just doesn't make sense. Then again, this is also a fantasy game, so it's not going to be realistic. Would like though if apartments were changed a bit.

[Patuk]

I don't think I like the idea of apartments being made into saferooms where none can follow you to watch you do magicky stuff/close illegal deals/kank your latest recruit. If it becomes widespread OOC knowledge that apartments are stealth-proof people are definetly going to make use of that knowledge.

Besides.. Watching someone in an apartment isn't as easy as some make it out to be. You need to know when and where someone is going to enter it, since once they're inside, you can't just crack the lock and walk in unless you have a death wish.

[RogueGunslinger]

Just marry the docs with the apartment code:

Well lit rooms, cramped passages, or areas devoid of decent cover may not
provide the necessary places in them to hide.

[A Large Bag]

There is plenty of unrealistic stuff that goes against the sneakies anyway. It's fine. I once saw a what should've been a relatively poor pc drop a thousand coins to have a thief who stole a fifty 'sid knife from them in the arena. Wait? What? Now you're out a thousand and fifty 'sids instead of just a fifty 'sid knife?! Really???!! Some people take their hatred of sneaky types or being stolen from in game waayy too far on an OOC level. To the point of making their pc behave unrealistically in response to such things.

[Harmless]

The best way to handle these complaints isn't to take them to GDB, it's to post ideas in game with the idea command.

Which I just did myself, for two ways I think that the hide skill might be improved.

I agree it has its problems. I also disagree that it's imbalanced. The two can mutually exist. What gets discussed here should be strongly thought over before posting because stealth skills are very important for plot outcomes.

[MeTekillot]

The thing about the General Discussion Board is that it is used for discussion among the player base before we go recommending changes to the game itself with no input from anyone but ourselves.

[Kryos]

The best way to handle these complaints isn't to take them to GDB, it's to post ideas in game with the idea command.

Which I just did myself, for two ways I think that the hide skill might be improved.

I agree it has its problems. I also disagree that it's imbalanced. The two can mutually exist. What gets discussed here should be strongly thought over before posting because stealth skills are very important for plot outcomes.

I'm not sure at what point I said "stealth skills are unbalanced."  I just reread my post, nope, didn't say that.  I said they frustrate me, and I see a number of changes that could from a game play perspective, make it a more interesting sub-game.

I mean, look at the posts I've been making recently.  I don't ever say "BREAK OUT THE NERF SLEDGE PLOX".  To paraphrase, I'm suggesting a few enhancements and a few downgrades to the application of certain things.

Untrue.  You are hidden. You can be detected.  There is another ability that can be used to detect hidden people called "scan."  If you do not pick a guild or subguild with scan, you can depend on people with it in order to find hidden people.  You can also wait for the hidden person to show themselves, because most actions tend to reveal the hider.

You can be detected with the scan skill, sure.  But a lot of the options available in char-gen don't give you that choice(more in a sec).  If you want it not on a base guild, its a spec app.  Further, the actions that DON'T reveal the user are the ones that are most dangerous.

It's also mind boggling that if you don't have scan, a stealthy person is unassailable.  If they hide, they have all the control.  Several times through various characters I've had groups of people in a closed room looking for 1 hidden person, but alas, no one had scan so nope, its Chuck Testa.

There's game balance, there's realism, and then there's fun factor.  They fail the 2nd both ways, but, its a game so . . . they fail the 3rd from the perspective of the person with 0 options against stealth skills.  Meaning the first is in question.

It's not a stroke of luck or genius, it is a matter of guilds, subguilds, and skill training having consequences in the game.  You can't be all things.  You will suck at something.  You may suck at a lot of things.  You may have written into your PC's background that she's a good listener and can cast spells, but if you didn't pick a guild that casts spells or a subguild that gets listen, you're going to be disappointed.

And chargen choices are quite rigid and the PC has little options to chose their own inherent set of weaknesses and strengths.  Those threads that pop up from time to time to mention how they'd love a subguild with X on it isn't because the system is flexible to the point of satisfaction.  I believe the ESG system is an attempt to address that issue, later, I ask for one other subguild option that I think has obvious intent.

Also, I was mentioning that getting close to someone in reality by *moving up to them* without being noticed is hard.  Not in game.  In game you're right next to someone as long as you're in the same room.  Pretty easy.

How do you know who you're hiding from?  If you're trying to avoid detection, aren't you "trying to avoid detection?"  We don't have IFF tags here.

Notice how there was two options?  The standard method (hard) and the hide from person(easier).  If I *know* someone's looking for me in a crowd, its a simple matter to chose to avoid them and not others.  And indeed, is easier than having NO ONE notice me.

Just like city hunt isn't "tracking" inside the city, city hide isn't "ermegherd, im invizuhbull" inside a populated area.  When I've played sneakies (and when I've seen others play sneakies), this is represented by hemotes indicating that they're blending in with the natural movement in the area or avoiding notice by not drawing attention to themselves.  If you've ever played Asassin's Creed games, there's a similar feature.  You see groups of people moving and you move along with them.  To prying eyes and authorities, they generally view you as "part of the group."  With a mastered hide skill, you're using your surroundings to your advantage, wherever you might be.

Yes, indeed, I think you made my point for me?   It could be much easier to avoid that Templar and his Giant bodyguard in the intersection by moving in the crowd around them, then trying to make the whole street not notice you.

Hiding while moving:

See above for inside a city.  It's not the act of a demi-god.  As for in the wilderness, if there is literally nothing to hide behind and it is entirely flat (salt flats, perhaps), it could be neat to make it impossible to hide unless it is dark or unless you are wearing clothing that camouflages you better with those surroundings.  I don't know how feasible that would be to code considering there are very few places in the game where this would be the case.  It'd be better to flesh out the roleplay involved in those rare scenarios.

Right.  And hiding while staying still, so to speak, is usually use of elevation and the slope of terrain.  Much easier then moving.

Guild and subguild choices have consequences.  Everyone can't be everything.  It takes a thief to catch a thief, or at least a thief-catcher to catch a thief.

There is not options for some types of classes to be a thief catcher without a spec app or ESG.  That is why I mention the subguild below.

Between guild and subguild and even extended subguild choice, a city soldier has all of the above at their fingertips if they want it for a new character.

Again, there is a mundane guild that can't do this without ESG.  In fact, I believe there's 0 normal subguilds that offer it. If I'm wrong, sure enough, I'll admit it.  I'll put in a question/request to elaborate on this if desired.

But that city-guard subguild, yeah.  Do want.  If nothing else, that.


So in summary, from the minigame stealth perspective, I think there are some changes that could be made to make it more enjoyable from both sides.  Further, I believe the intent of stealth skills was to allow one to perform certain acts of moral questionability with planning and cunning, not just hide, e, e, e, e, e, <do bad stuff>.

[hyzhenhok]

Definitely disagree with Scan being more readily available on character creation. Some skills are more valuable than others, so if you absolutely must have that skill you have to be prepared to give up some flexibility. Scan is one of those skills. There are other skills that you cannot obtain with a regular subguild, either. Scan is also kind of something that defines the guilds that get it; you'd be cheapening them further if you make that skill easy to get.

With extended subguilds, you can get pretty much any combination of 2 of these rarer skills anyway. If you don't want to SpecApp/don't have karma, if you decide you absolutely must have Scan it's right there for you to take. It's just when you decide you absolutely must have Scan and Pick and advanced weapons and Gather all in one package where you run into difficulty...as you should.

[Chettaman]

I wanted to begin with, I've been hanging out with alot of jerks lately so if I come off as snarky it's because I imagine it to be funny. Also I think the stealth skills are pretty well off now. I just wish I could tell when no one noticed me.

"You are hidden. You can be detected."  - everyone can listen and scan

You can be detected with the scan skill, sure.  But a lot of the options available in char-gen don't give you that choice(more in a sec).  If you want it not on a base guild, its a spec app.  Further, the actions that DON'T reveal the user are the ones that are most dangerous.

It's also mind boggling that if you don't have scan, a stealthy person is unassailable.  If they hide, they have all the control.  Several times through various characters I've had groups of people in a closed room looking for 1 hidden person, but alas, no one had scan so nope, its Chuck Testa.

There's game balance, there's realism, and then there's fun factor.  They fail the 2nd both ways, but, its a game so . . . they fail the 3rd from the perspective of the person with 0 options against stealth skills.  Meaning the first is in question.

Everyone can use scan and everyone can use listen. If said person was that good at hiding from a room of people who apparently suck at scan and listen - it makes sense that he wouldn't be found by an entire room of people who didn't know where, when or who to look for.

And chargen choices are quite rigid and the PC has little options to chose their own inherent set of weaknesses and strengths.  Those threads that pop up from time to time to mention how they'd love a subguild with X on it isn't because the system is flexible to the point of satisfaction.  I believe the ESG system is an attempt to address that issue, later, I ask for one other subguild option that I think has obvious intent.

Also, I was mentioning that getting close to someone in reality by *moving up to them* without being noticed is hard.  Not in game.  In game you're right next to someone as long as you're in the same room.  Pretty easy.

No offense, but you must suck at sneaking. Must be all my ninja trainin'. ; ) [ah! Gunner gets it.]
but seriously, it's not as difficult as it seems. People do this thing where they enter a room and they see things that they expect to see; the table, the book shelf, the over-flowing boxes of gore the hunters never clean up, people walking by since it's a busy work area. They almost completely block out things that they wouldn't expect to see - especially if that thing is trying not to be seen.

~in a not so crowded room~
Meh... the target was obviously not looking in the right direction. Everyone can use the watch skill too, which has saved me on many occasion. Stupid gith.

Notice how there was two options?  The standard method (hard) and the hide from person(easier).  If I *know* someone's looking for me in a crowd, its a simple matter to chose to avoid them and not others.  And indeed, is easier than having NO ONE notice me.

I thought I liked this idea, but... we all know frick'n, everytime you walk into a room -everyone- is going to look at you despite having their backs turned to the door since they're at the bar. (excludes the gaj since your back is not turned to the tarp) so if you weren't hidden from everyone then your target is going to know you're their somehow. It was a cool suggestion, though.

Yes, indeed, I think you made my point for me?   It could be much easier to avoid that Templar and his Giant bodyguard in the intersection by moving in the crowd around them, then trying to make the whole street not notice you.

What're you talking about, dood? The templar is your target and he is aware since he's a templar -with- a guard. The commoners? They're commoners. The whole street ALREADY doesn't notice you. No one cares what you do unless you step on their toes or something.

Again, there is a mundane guild that can't do this without ESG.  In fact, I believe there's 0 normal subguilds that offer it. If I'm wrong, sure enough, I'll admit it.  I'll put in a question/request to elaborate on this if desired.

But that city-guard subguild, yeah.  Do want.  If nothing else, that.

Yesh! Subguild with Scan! DO IT!!!

So in summary, from the minigame stealth perspective, I think there are some changes that could be made to make it more enjoyable from both sides.  Further, I believe the intent of stealth skills was to allow one to perform certain acts of moral questionability with planning and cunning, not just hide, e, e, e, e, e, <do bad stuff>.

Well. Yeah... but I mean... oh, no... you're not suggesting assassin be a karma required class are you?!
T~T (that would suck)

in closing I want to say you should try playing a sneaky type that actually does sneaky type things realistically. It's fun and more difficult than you imagine. With actual hemotes and semotes about entering the room and then creeping behind or around passer-bys that would make you seem like another passer-by just to get into the next room and such.

Trust and responsibility are a big part of an rp game with such 'powerful' skills. ... in my opinion.

[Nyr]

Yep, this looks like another case in which we would deal with the twinky player instead of enacting sweeping code changes.

Go pick a guild and subguild option that achieves what you want. Hint: there are several combinations.

[Synthesis]

I've been thoroughly unimpressed with the performance of subguild scan.  Even maxed scan can barely pick up any PC past noob status.  If you want or need the scan skill, play one of the guilds that starts with or branches it, and maybe pick a subguild to give you overlap for the opposite version.

Hell, all subguild skills (except the master-crafting options, obviously) seem to be fairly useless unless you don't mind failing half the time. This is not a viable option if you're trying to be sneaky.  That's probably a topic for another thread, though.

[Suhuy]

I think it's unrealistic someone could hide in an apartment.

Have you never played hide-and-go-seek as a child? How do you codedly hide inside a wardrobe or behind a tapestry or underneath the bed? You type hide. And if the other person's scan works then they've found you.

When I'm being really ambitious I'll decide where specifically my character is hiding and create an ldesc to indicate this - that way players who have the ability to see me will see where exactly I've chosen to hide because they can see my ldesc. And if the person cannot find me but emotes, for example, looking behind the tapestry - then I will invariably have to reveal myself.

Hide doesn't need to change. The etiquette of how it's used does. Most players these days are very mature people, they can be trusted to do the right thing. Our mdesc has to be approved by staff before our new character is accepted, but we're trusted to make our own tdescs now. We're trusted not to abuse the emote command by emoting that airplanes whizz past in the sky, etc. It's considered bad form to spar for unrealistic lengths of time and I'm confident most players abide by this too. We're afforded a measure of trust by the code and the same goes with hide. It's not about changing the code. Players simply need to demonstrate a stronger awareness of what's realistic and what's not. If our characters are talking back and forth and you suddenly hide on me without so much as an emote to indicate what you're doing, then you're basically trying to use your hide skill as an invisibility skill. And that definitely isn't cool. If you're in a room that is described as being unreasonably small without any furniture or objects whatsoever, even if the hide skill lets you you probably shouldn't use it.

[musashi]

I always figured you just show up as a strange shadow or whatever when you're scanned out. I didn't know people could see your ldesc.

[Synthesis]

I always figured you just show up as a strange shadow or whatever when you're scanned out. I didn't know people could see your ldesc.

They can't.  Not with scan, anyway.

[musashi]

Thought so.

[Desertman]

Many areas in game are already specially coded to take into account the fact that it would be hard to remain hidden in them. Many of those places will keep you from hiding all together, and even someone without scan who doesn't even have it turned on will be able to see you.

What you are asking for is already in game.

Find out IC.

[timb]

I think the stealth skills are fine, what I don't like is when I see some pcs who sneak everywhere, all the time. I would understand in a place like the labyrinth and I wouldn't think twice, when you see someone who is a soldier type in uniform and never walks normal, it's strange looking.

[MeTekillot]

Gotta raise skills somehow, timb

[Synthesis]

You don't have to spam-sneak to raise it.  As with most things, there's a fairly obvious "trick" to it (that has nothing to do with twinking anything whatsoever) that you probably won't ever notice until you play a d-elf ranger.