Hello, my name is stealth skills and golly I irk Kryos

[Kryos]

Its true, stealth skills really do irk me.  Its been talked about before, but I'd love to hash this out.

Hide is one of those things that at present, makes me want to spear-tackle people daring to come to close to my lawn.  At present, you hide, and suddenly you are invisible to the entire world.

Hiding like that should be reasonably difficult to do, if remaining stationary.  Playing hide and seek out in the wilds of Canada as a kid, its plausible to find a good hiding spot and elude searchers for a good long time.

That being said, when someone IS looking for you, say, because you are typing 'steal x' in rapid succession, life gets really hard.  You will be found, its a matter of time.

Sneak is pretty cool.

Its reasonable to not stomp along and rather, try to be as quiet as possible and even pull it off in the right environments.  Getting right next to someone without them noticing you though, is a stroke of luck or genius unless the environment is friendly towards that.

I think it would be boss if:

Base functionality of hide becomes hide from <x>, where you try to avoid detection from a specific person and their group.  This is easier to accomplish than . . .

Hide all.  In a room that has good hiding spots (under the deck was one of my favorites, behind paired pillars to bllock LoS), this should be reasonable.  In the Gaj?  Not so much.  Hide all can be switched to hide from x if someone plods into the area you're skulking about in.  Good hiders can hide from more x's then bad hiders.

Hiding while moving:

Should be hard, and take a long, long time.  Trying to avoid detection while moving is fraggin' hard (I crept along the rock line at the lakes shore, slipping under the water when there was no cover).  But in open terrain or a city street, hiding from everyone(same room) and moving . . . is the act of a demi-god.

Lastly,

Everyone and their mother should have some sort of base 'searching' functionality to try and pinpoint people they've been alerted to in their area.  It's sort of absurd that people can't look for that pickpocket constantly tugging on their pockets or that guy that accidentally farted in the corner.

Scan can probably stay as it is.  You are actively looking in the hidey holes and likely points for something/someone lurking.  Though I'd love a sub guild like:  City-Soldier that gives scan, a good subdue or subdue+, and a skill that lets you examine people's worn containers and gear for that illegeal stuff they are always carrying around.

Mashing things up like this I think would help enjoyment and feasibility factors regarding these skills, and maybe make playing a skulker enhance the feeling of ninjaness and tension.

Note how I try to avoid talk about existing mechanics and guilds as much as is feasible when discussing this topic.  Its on purpose.

[Nyr]

At present, you hide, and suddenly you are invisible to the entire world.

Untrue.  You are hidden. You can be detected.  There is another ability that can be used to detect hidden people called "scan."  If you do not pick a guild or subguild with scan, you can depend on people with it in order to find hidden people.  You can also wait for the hidden person to show themselves, because most actions tend to reveal the hider.

Getting right next to someone without them noticing you though, is a stroke of luck or genius unless the environment is friendly towards that.

It's not a stroke of luck or genius, it is a matter of guilds, subguilds, and skill training having consequences in the game.  You can't be all things.  You will suck at something.  You may suck at a lot of things.  You may have written into your PC's background that she's a good listener and can cast spells, but if you didn't pick a guild that casts spells or a subguild that gets listen, you're going to be disappointed.

I think it would be boss if:

Base functionality of hide becomes hide from <x>, where you try to avoid detection from a specific person and their group.

How do you know who you're hiding from?  If you're trying to avoid detection, aren't you "trying to avoid detection?"  We don't have IFF tags here.

Hide all.  In a room that has good hiding spots (under the deck was one of my favorites, behind paired pillars to bllock LoS), this should be reasonable.  In the Gaj?  Not so much.  Hide all can be switched to hide from x if someone plods into the area you're skulking about in.  Good hiders can hide from more x's then bad hiders.

Just like city hunt isn't "tracking" inside the city, city hide isn't "ermegherd, im invizuhbull" inside a populated area.  When I've played sneakies (and when I've seen others play sneakies), this is represented by hemotes indicating that they're blending in with the natural movement in the area or avoiding notice by not drawing attention to themselves.  If you've ever played Asassin's Creed games, there's a similar feature.  You see groups of people moving and you move along with them.  To prying eyes and authorities, they generally view you as "part of the group."  With a mastered hide skill, you're using your surroundings to your advantage, wherever you might be.

Hiding while moving:

Should be hard, and take a long, long time.  Trying to avoid detection while moving is fraggin' hard (I crept along the rock line at the lakes shore, slipping under the water when there was no cover).  But in open terrain or a city street, hiding from everyone(same room) and moving . . . is the act of a demi-god.

See above for inside a city.  It's not the act of a demi-god.  As for in the wilderness, if there is literally nothing to hide behind and it is entirely flat (salt flats, perhaps), it could be neat to make it impossible to hide unless it is dark or unless you are wearing clothing that camouflages you better with those surroundings.  I don't know how feasible that would be to code considering there are very few places in the game where this would be the case.  It'd be better to flesh out the roleplay involved in those rare scenarios.

Everyone and their mother should have some sort of base 'searching' functionality to try and pinpoint people they've been alerted to in their area.  It's sort of absurd that people can't look for that pickpocket constantly tugging on their pockets or that guy that accidentally farted in the corner.

Guild and subguild choices have consequences.  Everyone can't be everything.  It takes a thief to catch a thief, or at least a thief-catcher to catch a thief.

Scan can probably stay as it is.  You are actively looking in the hidey holes and likely points for something/someone lurking.  Though I'd love a sub guild like:  City-Soldier that gives scan, a good subdue or subdue+, and a skill that lets you examine people's worn containers and gear for that illegeal stuff they are always carrying around.

Between guild and subguild and even extended subguild choice, a city soldier has all of the above at their fingertips if they want it for a new character.

[Desertman]

Stealth skills are not realistic and overpowered.

I agree with you. Stealth skills are pretty dang unrealistic in some situations in the game. To the point that you sit and think, "In real life, you could probably NEVER do that without being seen."

Now, I'm not trying to be a smartass, but....

Warriors can kill mekillots and gajack beetles, dino's that would make a T-Rex shit its pants.....with bone swords....by themselves....

We have people that throw fire from their hands.

Taking that into consideration, I think it is pretty balanced.

[MeTekillot]

Balance should not be the focus of a roleplay-centric game.

[Marc]

Code discussion forum: 

Without being too specific are there more variables that effect hide vs scan?
Items with +scan vs items with +hide?
Attributes affecting scan vs those affecting hide?
etc etc

[boog]

Yeah. There's a fine line between enough realism and too much realism. I think hide is fine as it is.

[Scarecrow]

I think it's unrealistic someone could hide in an apartment. Even if you don't havr a scan, if someone decided to actively look, there is only so many places you can hide in a room, right? Should make a special rule for apartments and inside buildings. City streets are different, VNPC crowds and whatnot provide cover to mingle and follow. Inside a small, one-room apartment? No, just doesn't make sense. Then again, this is also a fantasy game, so it's not going to be realistic. Would like though if apartments were changed a bit.

[Patuk]

I don't think I like the idea of apartments being made into saferooms where none can follow you to watch you do magicky stuff/close illegal deals/kank your latest recruit. If it becomes widespread OOC knowledge that apartments are stealth-proof people are definetly going to make use of that knowledge.

Besides.. Watching someone in an apartment isn't as easy as some make it out to be. You need to know when and where someone is going to enter it, since once they're inside, you can't just crack the lock and walk in unless you have a death wish.

[RogueGunslinger]

Just marry the docs with the apartment code:

Well lit rooms, cramped passages, or areas devoid of decent cover may not
provide the necessary places in them to hide.

[A Large Bag]

There is plenty of unrealistic stuff that goes against the sneakies anyway. It's fine. I once saw a what should've been a relatively poor pc drop a thousand coins to have a thief who stole a fifty 'sid knife from them in the arena. Wait? What? Now you're out a thousand and fifty 'sids instead of just a fifty 'sid knife?! Really???!! Some people take their hatred of sneaky types or being stolen from in game waayy too far on an OOC level. To the point of making their pc behave unrealistically in response to such things.

[Harmless]

The best way to handle these complaints isn't to take them to GDB, it's to post ideas in game with the idea command.

Which I just did myself, for two ways I think that the hide skill might be improved.

I agree it has its problems. I also disagree that it's imbalanced. The two can mutually exist. What gets discussed here should be strongly thought over before posting because stealth skills are very important for plot outcomes.

[MeTekillot]

The thing about the General Discussion Board is that it is used for discussion among the player base before we go recommending changes to the game itself with no input from anyone but ourselves.

[Kryos]

The best way to handle these complaints isn't to take them to GDB, it's to post ideas in game with the idea command.

Which I just did myself, for two ways I think that the hide skill might be improved.

I agree it has its problems. I also disagree that it's imbalanced. The two can mutually exist. What gets discussed here should be strongly thought over before posting because stealth skills are very important for plot outcomes.

I'm not sure at what point I said "stealth skills are unbalanced."  I just reread my post, nope, didn't say that.  I said they frustrate me, and I see a number of changes that could from a game play perspective, make it a more interesting sub-game.

I mean, look at the posts I've been making recently.  I don't ever say "BREAK OUT THE NERF SLEDGE PLOX".  To paraphrase, I'm suggesting a few enhancements and a few downgrades to the application of certain things.

Untrue.  You are hidden. You can be detected.  There is another ability that can be used to detect hidden people called "scan."  If you do not pick a guild or subguild with scan, you can depend on people with it in order to find hidden people.  You can also wait for the hidden person to show themselves, because most actions tend to reveal the hider.

You can be detected with the scan skill, sure.  But a lot of the options available in char-gen don't give you that choice(more in a sec).  If you want it not on a base guild, its a spec app.  Further, the actions that DON'T reveal the user are the ones that are most dangerous.

It's also mind boggling that if you don't have scan, a stealthy person is unassailable.  If they hide, they have all the control.  Several times through various characters I've had groups of people in a closed room looking for 1 hidden person, but alas, no one had scan so nope, its Chuck Testa.

There's game balance, there's realism, and then there's fun factor.  They fail the 2nd both ways, but, its a game so . . . they fail the 3rd from the perspective of the person with 0 options against stealth skills.  Meaning the first is in question.

It's not a stroke of luck or genius, it is a matter of guilds, subguilds, and skill training having consequences in the game.  You can't be all things.  You will suck at something.  You may suck at a lot of things.  You may have written into your PC's background that she's a good listener and can cast spells, but if you didn't pick a guild that casts spells or a subguild that gets listen, you're going to be disappointed.

And chargen choices are quite rigid and the PC has little options to chose their own inherent set of weaknesses and strengths.  Those threads that pop up from time to time to mention how they'd love a subguild with X on it isn't because the system is flexible to the point of satisfaction.  I believe the ESG system is an attempt to address that issue, later, I ask for one other subguild option that I think has obvious intent.

Also, I was mentioning that getting close to someone in reality by *moving up to them* without being noticed is hard.  Not in game.  In game you're right next to someone as long as you're in the same room.  Pretty easy.

How do you know who you're hiding from?  If you're trying to avoid detection, aren't you "trying to avoid detection?"  We don't have IFF tags here.

Notice how there was two options?  The standard method (hard) and the hide from person(easier).  If I *know* someone's looking for me in a crowd, its a simple matter to chose to avoid them and not others.  And indeed, is easier than having NO ONE notice me.

Just like city hunt isn't "tracking" inside the city, city hide isn't "ermegherd, im invizuhbull" inside a populated area.  When I've played sneakies (and when I've seen others play sneakies), this is represented by hemotes indicating that they're blending in with the natural movement in the area or avoiding notice by not drawing attention to themselves.  If you've ever played Asassin's Creed games, there's a similar feature.  You see groups of people moving and you move along with them.  To prying eyes and authorities, they generally view you as "part of the group."  With a mastered hide skill, you're using your surroundings to your advantage, wherever you might be.

Yes, indeed, I think you made my point for me?   It could be much easier to avoid that Templar and his Giant bodyguard in the intersection by moving in the crowd around them, then trying to make the whole street not notice you.

Hiding while moving:

See above for inside a city.  It's not the act of a demi-god.  As for in the wilderness, if there is literally nothing to hide behind and it is entirely flat (salt flats, perhaps), it could be neat to make it impossible to hide unless it is dark or unless you are wearing clothing that camouflages you better with those surroundings.  I don't know how feasible that would be to code considering there are very few places in the game where this would be the case.  It'd be better to flesh out the roleplay involved in those rare scenarios.

Right.  And hiding while staying still, so to speak, is usually use of elevation and the slope of terrain.  Much easier then moving.

Guild and subguild choices have consequences.  Everyone can't be everything.  It takes a thief to catch a thief, or at least a thief-catcher to catch a thief.

There is not options for some types of classes to be a thief catcher without a spec app or ESG.  That is why I mention the subguild below.

Between guild and subguild and even extended subguild choice, a city soldier has all of the above at their fingertips if they want it for a new character.

Again, there is a mundane guild that can't do this without ESG.  In fact, I believe there's 0 normal subguilds that offer it. If I'm wrong, sure enough, I'll admit it.  I'll put in a question/request to elaborate on this if desired.

But that city-guard subguild, yeah.  Do want.  If nothing else, that.


So in summary, from the minigame stealth perspective, I think there are some changes that could be made to make it more enjoyable from both sides.  Further, I believe the intent of stealth skills was to allow one to perform certain acts of moral questionability with planning and cunning, not just hide, e, e, e, e, e, <do bad stuff>.

[hyzhenhok]

Definitely disagree with Scan being more readily available on character creation. Some skills are more valuable than others, so if you absolutely must have that skill you have to be prepared to give up some flexibility. Scan is one of those skills. There are other skills that you cannot obtain with a regular subguild, either. Scan is also kind of something that defines the guilds that get it; you'd be cheapening them further if you make that skill easy to get.

With extended subguilds, you can get pretty much any combination of 2 of these rarer skills anyway. If you don't want to SpecApp/don't have karma, if you decide you absolutely must have Scan it's right there for you to take. It's just when you decide you absolutely must have Scan and Pick and advanced weapons and Gather all in one package where you run into difficulty...as you should.

[Chettaman]

I wanted to begin with, I've been hanging out with alot of jerks lately so if I come off as snarky it's because I imagine it to be funny. Also I think the stealth skills are pretty well off now. I just wish I could tell when no one noticed me.

"You are hidden. You can be detected."  - everyone can listen and scan

You can be detected with the scan skill, sure.  But a lot of the options available in char-gen don't give you that choice(more in a sec).  If you want it not on a base guild, its a spec app.  Further, the actions that DON'T reveal the user are the ones that are most dangerous.

It's also mind boggling that if you don't have scan, a stealthy person is unassailable.  If they hide, they have all the control.  Several times through various characters I've had groups of people in a closed room looking for 1 hidden person, but alas, no one had scan so nope, its Chuck Testa.

There's game balance, there's realism, and then there's fun factor.  They fail the 2nd both ways, but, its a game so . . . they fail the 3rd from the perspective of the person with 0 options against stealth skills.  Meaning the first is in question.

Everyone can use scan and everyone can use listen. If said person was that good at hiding from a room of people who apparently suck at scan and listen - it makes sense that he wouldn't be found by an entire room of people who didn't know where, when or who to look for.

And chargen choices are quite rigid and the PC has little options to chose their own inherent set of weaknesses and strengths.  Those threads that pop up from time to time to mention how they'd love a subguild with X on it isn't because the system is flexible to the point of satisfaction.  I believe the ESG system is an attempt to address that issue, later, I ask for one other subguild option that I think has obvious intent.

Also, I was mentioning that getting close to someone in reality by *moving up to them* without being noticed is hard.  Not in game.  In game you're right next to someone as long as you're in the same room.  Pretty easy.

No offense, but you must suck at sneaking. Must be all my ninja trainin'. ; ) [ah! Gunner gets it.]
but seriously, it's not as difficult as it seems. People do this thing where they enter a room and they see things that they expect to see; the table, the book shelf, the over-flowing boxes of gore the hunters never clean up, people walking by since it's a busy work area. They almost completely block out things that they wouldn't expect to see - especially if that thing is trying not to be seen.

~in a not so crowded room~
Meh... the target was obviously not looking in the right direction. Everyone can use the watch skill too, which has saved me on many occasion. Stupid gith.

Notice how there was two options?  The standard method (hard) and the hide from person(easier).  If I *know* someone's looking for me in a crowd, its a simple matter to chose to avoid them and not others.  And indeed, is easier than having NO ONE notice me.

I thought I liked this idea, but... we all know frick'n, everytime you walk into a room -everyone- is going to look at you despite having their backs turned to the door since they're at the bar. (excludes the gaj since your back is not turned to the tarp) so if you weren't hidden from everyone then your target is going to know you're their somehow. It was a cool suggestion, though.

Yes, indeed, I think you made my point for me?   It could be much easier to avoid that Templar and his Giant bodyguard in the intersection by moving in the crowd around them, then trying to make the whole street not notice you.

What're you talking about, dood? The templar is your target and he is aware since he's a templar -with- a guard. The commoners? They're commoners. The whole street ALREADY doesn't notice you. No one cares what you do unless you step on their toes or something.

Again, there is a mundane guild that can't do this without ESG.  In fact, I believe there's 0 normal subguilds that offer it. If I'm wrong, sure enough, I'll admit it.  I'll put in a question/request to elaborate on this if desired.

But that city-guard subguild, yeah.  Do want.  If nothing else, that.

Yesh! Subguild with Scan! DO IT!!!

So in summary, from the minigame stealth perspective, I think there are some changes that could be made to make it more enjoyable from both sides.  Further, I believe the intent of stealth skills was to allow one to perform certain acts of moral questionability with planning and cunning, not just hide, e, e, e, e, e, <do bad stuff>.

Well. Yeah... but I mean... oh, no... you're not suggesting assassin be a karma required class are you?!
T~T (that would suck)

in closing I want to say you should try playing a sneaky type that actually does sneaky type things realistically. It's fun and more difficult than you imagine. With actual hemotes and semotes about entering the room and then creeping behind or around passer-bys that would make you seem like another passer-by just to get into the next room and such.

Trust and responsibility are a big part of an rp game with such 'powerful' skills. ... in my opinion.

[Nyr]

Yep, this looks like another case in which we would deal with the twinky player instead of enacting sweeping code changes.

Go pick a guild and subguild option that achieves what you want. Hint: there are several combinations.

[Synthesis]

I've been thoroughly unimpressed with the performance of subguild scan.  Even maxed scan can barely pick up any PC past noob status.  If you want or need the scan skill, play one of the guilds that starts with or branches it, and maybe pick a subguild to give you overlap for the opposite version.

Hell, all subguild skills (except the master-crafting options, obviously) seem to be fairly useless unless you don't mind failing half the time. This is not a viable option if you're trying to be sneaky.  That's probably a topic for another thread, though.

[Suhuy]

I think it's unrealistic someone could hide in an apartment.

Have you never played hide-and-go-seek as a child? How do you codedly hide inside a wardrobe or behind a tapestry or underneath the bed? You type hide. And if the other person's scan works then they've found you.

When I'm being really ambitious I'll decide where specifically my character is hiding and create an ldesc to indicate this - that way players who have the ability to see me will see where exactly I've chosen to hide because they can see my ldesc. And if the person cannot find me but emotes, for example, looking behind the tapestry - then I will invariably have to reveal myself.

Hide doesn't need to change. The etiquette of how it's used does. Most players these days are very mature people, they can be trusted to do the right thing. Our mdesc has to be approved by staff before our new character is accepted, but we're trusted to make our own tdescs now. We're trusted not to abuse the emote command by emoting that airplanes whizz past in the sky, etc. It's considered bad form to spar for unrealistic lengths of time and I'm confident most players abide by this too. We're afforded a measure of trust by the code and the same goes with hide. It's not about changing the code. Players simply need to demonstrate a stronger awareness of what's realistic and what's not. If our characters are talking back and forth and you suddenly hide on me without so much as an emote to indicate what you're doing, then you're basically trying to use your hide skill as an invisibility skill. And that definitely isn't cool. If you're in a room that is described as being unreasonably small without any furniture or objects whatsoever, even if the hide skill lets you you probably shouldn't use it.

[musashi]

I always figured you just show up as a strange shadow or whatever when you're scanned out. I didn't know people could see your ldesc.

[Synthesis]

I always figured you just show up as a strange shadow or whatever when you're scanned out. I didn't know people could see your ldesc.

They can't.  Not with scan, anyway.

[musashi]

Thought so.

[Desertman]

Many areas in game are already specially coded to take into account the fact that it would be hard to remain hidden in them. Many of those places will keep you from hiding all together, and even someone without scan who doesn't even have it turned on will be able to see you.

What you are asking for is already in game.

Find out IC.

[timb]

I think the stealth skills are fine, what I don't like is when I see some pcs who sneak everywhere, all the time. I would understand in a place like the labyrinth and I wouldn't think twice, when you see someone who is a soldier type in uniform and never walks normal, it's strange looking.

[MeTekillot]

Gotta raise skills somehow, timb

[Synthesis]

You don't have to spam-sneak to raise it.  As with most things, there's a fairly obvious "trick" to it (that has nothing to do with twinking anything whatsoever) that you probably won't ever notice until you play a d-elf ranger.

[timb]

  You see groups of people moving and you move along with them.  To prying eyes and authorities, they generally view you as "part of the group."  With a mastered hide skill, you're using your surroundings to your advantage, wherever you might be.

This is why it's good the game has no city type camo. It would be so weird to see someone decked out in multi-thousand sid gear just part of the group of day laborers, blending his way down the street together.

[thatkid]

  You see groups of people moving and you move along with them.  To prying eyes and authorities, they generally view you as "part of the group."  With a mastered hide skill, you're using your surroundings to your advantage, wherever you might be.

This is why it's good the game has no city type camo. It would be so weird to see someone decked out in multi-thousand sid gear just part of the group of day laborers, blending his way down the street together.

A commoner-hide cap looks like it could be worn on the head.
A commoner-hide cap looks like it would help with stealth.

[Suhuy]

  You see groups of people moving and you move along with them.  To prying eyes and authorities, they generally view you as "part of the group."  With a mastered hide skill, you're using your surroundings to your advantage, wherever you might be.

This is why it's good the game has no city type camo. It would be so weird to see someone decked out in multi-thousand sid gear just part of the group of day laborers, blending his way down the street together.

Who says the game has no city camo?

City hide is not exclusively blending in with crowds, that is but one function of the skill. it can also be hiding in the shadows, hiding behind obstructions, etc. And any existing city camo in game surely has an mdesc which indicates as much.

[Qzzrbl]

You notice someone has their hand in your pocket.
You notice someone has their hand in their pocket.
You notice someone has their hand in your pocket.

Look

You don't have scan so you don't see anyone.

You say, "Hey stop that I'll kill you."

You notice someone has their hand in your pocket.
You notice someone has their hand in your pocket.

You say, "Stop pls your so bad."

You say ooc: "Srsly man, stop. I'd report you if I could see you."

You notice someone has their hand in your pocket.

You say, "Fuuuuuuuuck."

n
n
n
n
n
n
n
w
unlock door
open door
n
close door
lock door

You notice someone has their hand in your pocket.

draw sword
draw sword

look

A short figure in a black hooded cloak is here.

kill hooded

You don't see that here.

You notice someone has their hand in your pocket.

look

nothing

look

nothing

look

You see a short figure in a black hooded cloak

look figure

You don't see that here.

You notice someone has their hand in your pocket.

Kill figure

You don't see that here.

You say ooc: "Seriously, this is dumb."

You notice someone has their hand in your pocket.

A short figure in a dark hooded cloak has departed from the land of Zalanthas.

Based on a true story.

[MeTekillot]

something something file a player complaint something something the code is the way it is something guild with scan something apartment something abuse of the code based on a case by case something

[AmandaGreathouse]

something something file a player complaint something something the code is the way it is something guild with scan something apartment something abuse of the code based on a case by case something

Well played.

[Cind]

I really appreciate you pickpockets and burglars and shit who have all the power in the world to take all my clothes and pack while I'm sleeping or passed out, or to take my dresser, bed and couch out the door of my room, and don't. Actually most of them don't I think. Its sort of hard to tell sometimes when you've been hit.

I try to OOCly find ways to let pc criminals off the hook if I can.

[timb]

  You see groups of people moving and you move along with them.  To prying eyes and authorities, they generally view you as "part of the group."  With a mastered hide skill, you're using your surroundings to your advantage, wherever you might be.

This is why it's good the game has no city type camo. It would be so weird to see someone decked out in multi-thousand sid gear just part of the group of day laborers, blending his way down the street together.

Who says the game has no city camo?

City hide is not exclusively blending in with crowds, that is but one function of the skill. it can also be hiding in the shadows, hiding behind obstructions, etc. And any existing city camo in game surely has an mdesc which indicates as much.

I may or may not know this, find out I.C.           Anyways, when I've tried to play this type of role I've always thought about it as the blending into the crowd thing. I really don't see how someone could convince them self that standing around in the Gaj (in gear worthy of the 1%) that they justify their hiding in the shadows based on code alone. For the P.C. does not live on code alone but by every word that comes from the R.P..

[Suhuy]

This is why it's good the game has no city type camo. It would be so weird to see someone decked out in multi-thousand sid gear just part of the group of day laborers, blending his way down the street together.

Who says the game has no city camo?

City hide is not exclusively blending in with crowds, that is but one function of the skill. it can also be hiding in the shadows, hiding behind obstructions, etc. And any existing city camo in game surely has an mdesc which indicates as much.

I may or may not know this, find out I.C.           Anyways, when I've tried to play this type of role I've always thought about it as the blending into the crowd thing. I really don't see how someone could convince them self that standing around in the Gaj (in gear worthy of the 1%) that they justify their hiding in the shadows based on code alone. For the P.C. does not live on code alone but by every word that comes from the R.P..

Naturally, this is where the player's discretion, common sense and fairness comes in to play. When hiding it is up the the player (and sometimes the code if the room has hide restrictions) to determine where and how they are hiding. When I said that it is not always blending in with the crowd, I meant exactly that. Sometimes. I certainly did not say never. Your example of the Gaj would be a perfect scenario where the player would RP it as blending in with the crowd - in which case whatever type of camo being worn really is quite pointless. If you're deep in the alleys of the Labyrinth being chased down by someone bigger than you, there's a good chance your hide skill is indeed hiding in shadows or otherwise using some sort of cover. And any existing camouflage designed for the latter activity very clearly takes this into consideration as evidenced by its mdesc.

[Bluefae]

something something file a player complaint something something the code is the way it is something guild with scan something apartment something abuse of the code based on a case by case something

Well played.

     *laugh*  M.T., you just saved about half-a-dozen posts, possibly a flame or two, and plenty of angst.  Strong work!

[Bluefae]

     One of the most egregious offenders of "hide-as-invisibility" is the iconic "single, bare room" scenario.  How about some application of scan that allows it to "build" over repeated uses, provided you don't move from the square?  Or, barring that, a new skill (the way watch was added) that everyone has, that starts off with a terrible percentage but can again slowly accrue each time you use it vs. hide.  This could simulate a slow, deliberate search of a limited area.  This new skill, call it 'inspect', could never raise normally, the same way 'analyze' is frozen.  That way it's not "super scan".  The delay on it could be hideous, there could be a stamina expenditure slapped on it, etc.

     Just a thought for how to remedy the worst of the coded abuses for hide.  With a true master, most other scenarios in which hide gets used seem feasible to me (think Batman-esque talent). 

[Jenred]

    One of the most egregious offenders of "hide-as-invisibility" is the iconic "single, bare room" scenario.  How about some application of scan that allows it to "build" over repeated uses, provided you don't move from the square?  Or, barring that, a new skill (the way watch was added) that everyone has, that starts off with a terrible percentage but can again slowly accrue each time you use it vs. hide.  This could simulate a slow, deliberate search of a limited area.  This new skill, call it 'inspect', could never raise normally, the same way 'analyze' is frozen.  That way it's not "super scan".  The delay on it could be hideous, there could be a stamina expenditure slapped on it, etc.

    Just a thought for how to remedy the worst of the coded abuses for hide.  With a true master, most other scenarios in which hide gets used seem feasible to me (think Batman-esque talent).  

As has been stated in the past by Nyr and other staff: there is no present movement to make large changes the code to prevent abuses that are relatively infrequent. As it is now, the "single bare room" hiding/stealing/whatever is an abuse. If you feel that someone is abusing it, report them. There are much more pressing things I'd say then doing an overhaul of the hide/sneak/scan code to prevent the occasionally infrequent times someone abuses hide/steal in a room where it would be illogical that they'd be unseen.

Using the other thread:

I don't think we're going to change a system entirely because of an anecdote about one person that may have done what you're talking about. 

And anyway, either you were:

the twink that did this if it did happen (shame on you)
the other player that got tracked if it did happen (no player complaint filed, but then again you'd have no idea how they tracked you)
a bystander that heard about it or knew about it (no player complaint filed)

[Morrolan]

You notice someone has their hand in your pocket.
You notice someone has their hand in their pocket.
You notice someone has their hand in your pocket.

Look

You don't have scan so you don't see anyone.

You say, "Hey stop that I'll kill you."

[chopped for brevity]

You say ooc: "Seriously, this is dumb."

You notice someone has their hand in your pocket.

A short figure in a dark hooded cloak has departed from the land of Zalanthas.

Based on a true story.

It would be time for a quick >wish all I would like to flag the idiot harassing me for code abuse of the stealth code...but I cannot see him. Please take a peek for me?  Thanks much, The FishStroker

[Bluefae]

As has been stated in the past by Nyr and other staff: there is no present movement to make large changes the code to prevent abuses that are relatively infrequent. As it is now, the "single bare room" hiding/stealing/whatever is an abuse. If you feel that someone is abusing it, report them. There are much more pressing things I'd say then doing an overhaul of the hide/sneak/scan code to prevent the occasionally infrequent times someone abuses hide/steal in a room where it would be illogical that they'd be unseen.

    Hi, Jenred!  *waves*  I'm Bluefae.  I don't flame people on this board, rarely argue, and try my darndest to be constructive.  I understand the above.  I only wanted to contribute to the conversation, and I thought this was a neat idea.  Maybe in five or ten years, this will be looked at (that's not sarcasm, and yes, I've been playing long enough that time-frames like that don't daunt me).

    I will say that I have not, personally, ever been the target of what I felt was "hide abuse".  I suppose I can also say that in eight years of play, I've never filed a player complaint for IC activity.  I've found the quality of role-play on Arm. to be head-and-shoulders more conscientious then other MUDs I've tried.  

[Rhyden]

As has been stated in the past by Nyr and other staff: there is no present movement to make large changes *to the code for preventing abuses that are relatively infrequent. As it is now, the "single bare room" hiding/stealing/whatever is an abuse. If you feel that someone is abusing it, report them. There are much more pressing things I'd say then doing an overhaul of the hide/sneak/scan code to prevent the occasionally infrequent times someone abuses hide/steal in a room where it would be illogical that they'd be unseen.

    Hi, Jenred!  *waves*  I'm Bluefae.  I don't flame people on this board, rarely argue, and try my darndest to be constructive.  I understand the above.  I only wanted to contribute to the conversation, and I thought this was a neat idea.  Maybe in five or ten years, this will be looked at (that's not sarcasm, and yes, I've been playing long enough that time-frames like that don't daunt me).

I don't think he's flaming. He's just reiterating the staff's consensus that there will no longer be large code changes. (see: wagons and more wagons!)

Still a very cool idea, Bluefae. I like the thought of a progressive scan which eventually finds hidden people in the room the longer you scan. It's like searching every nook and cranny.

[Nyr]

I don't think he's flaming. He's just reiterating the staff's consensus that there will no longer be large code changes.

Not quite true.

If an issue presents itself and the issue is abuse of code, we have at least a couple of courses of action.  We can alter the code.  We also can deal with the abuse.  Okay, a look at the proposed coded changes brings to mind a few things:  sweeping and pie-in-the-sky wants in addition to the "fix" provided.  This usually means a large amount of code work.  Okay, so we take a step back and look at the offense:  it's people that are abusing the code.  Well, the reported instances of it are low, plus we are usually aware of it.  It really seems like it would be easier to deal with the abuse directly.  A code change could be considered when it is accompanied with other changes to nearby systems.

So no--we have not ever said that there will no longer be large code changes.  That's bogus.

I definitely have said that it oftentimes doesn't make sense to make huge changes to the code just to fix a problem that is barely eking out an existence.

[Rhyden]

That is understandable. I should have specified between large, creation-type code changes and abuse-type code changes. Apologies. And thanks for the clarification.

[Jenred]

As has been stated in the past by Nyr and other staff: there is no present movement to make large changes the code to prevent abuses that are relatively infrequent. As it is now, the "single bare room" hiding/stealing/whatever is an abuse. If you feel that someone is abusing it, report them. There are much more pressing things I'd say then doing an overhaul of the hide/sneak/scan code to prevent the occasionally infrequent times someone abuses hide/steal in a room where it would be illogical that they'd be unseen.

    Hi, Jenred!  *waves*  I'm Bluefae.  I don't flame people on this board, rarely argue, and try my darndest to be constructive.  I understand the above.  I only wanted to contribute to the conversation, and I thought this was a neat idea.  Maybe in five or ten years, this will be looked at (that's not sarcasm, and yes, I've been playing long enough that time-frames like that don't daunt me).

    I will say that I have not, personally, ever been the target of what I felt was "hide abuse".  I suppose I can also say that in eight years of play, I've never filed a player complaint for IC activity.  I've found the quality of role-play on Arm. to be head-and-shoulders more conscientious then other MUDs I've tried.  

Sorry if my message came off wrong. I'm not trying to say that it isn't a good, valuable, or needed idea, just alot of times people get into large discussions about code only to be reminded of the position that I provided.

Because it seems that alot of times people tend to blame the code for things that are really twinky players. And players on the same note try to hide behind the code like "well it allowed me to do this!". The point is that in situations of abuse the default response should be to report the player, not just try to rethink the code (though in some cases it definitely should be).

[Vwest]

Is the plant skill a stand-alone, or based of another skill, ie; steal or slight of hand?

Looks like the right kind of thread for the question.

[RogueGunslinger]

Is the plant skill a stand-alone, or based of another skill, ie; steal or slight of hand?

Looks like the right kind of thread for the question.

It's the steal skill. Leveling plant will level steal and vice versa.

[CravenMadness]

It's actually surprisingly easy to sneak up and drift behind folks in populated areas...

Used to do this in high school all the time, we just didn't have a name for it.  It's called Ghosting now.  It's a thing.

Ever try to see how close you could get to someone while walking in a mall?  If anything it's easier to 'stay off the radar' in heavily populated areas or high traffic areas, not harder.

But yea, I think the thread breaker is the whole 'Killin' shit with bone swords' ... It's a game.  We're lucky there's difference between City and Wilderness hide/sneak.

I can think of perhaps one instance of 'Where'd that fucker I was just looking at, alone in the middle of the road, go?'  ... But then it was just a matter of hunt, and then poison'd arrow... That'll learn 'em.

[X-D]

Besides, It can be fun.

I was playing a certain wilderness PC a while back, came on somebody...shadowed them...left, walked back in so they saw me coming.

There was a short exchange, in the middle of which they emoted then hid...and so did I... and snuck away...He walks all his moves out and arrives where he was to hide out from my PC...mine pokes him and says.."Did that work how you wanted?" "Now let's see that pack."

[TheBadSeed]

It's actually surprisingly easy to sneak up and drift behind folks in populated areas...

It's funny, I make a game of this at work. It really takes no concentrated effort at all to sneak up on someone, just a feel for where their eyes are headed, and where the lights might cast a shadow.

[HavokBlue]

Sneaking up on folks is easy. I too do it all the time. Depending on your environment, it's all a matter of knowing how and where to move.

Hiding is a different matter entirely, but when I'm in a situation in-game where one minute, someone is there, and the next, they're missing, I just write it off like I was talking to Batman and he disappeared when I looked away for a second.

[Bushranger]

Sneaking up on folks is easy. I too do it all the time. Depending on your environment, it's all a matter of knowing how and where to move.

Hiding is a different matter entirely, but when I'm in a situation in-game where one minute, someone is there, and the next, they're missing, I just write it off like I was talking to Batman and he disappeared when I looked away for a second.

Damnit, for some reason I'm now imagining there will be a spate of applications that all start off "I'm Merch-man!"

[janeshephard]

It's funny, I make a game of this at work. It really takes no concentrated effort at all to sneak up on someone, just a feel for where their eyes are headed, and where the lights might cast a shadow.

Twinking RL or just being creepy at work?

[Orin]

You might be able to sneak up on a coworker, but can you sneak up on a CAT?

/thread

[Narf]

You might be able to sneak up on a coworker, but can you sneak up on a CAT?

/thread

How can you tell the difference between successfully sneaking up on a cat, or just being ignored by one?

[Orin]

Ear or whisker twitches should give it away.  Look for the hemotes.

[Eurynomos]

Aaaaand...Purpose served.