Constraints and Creativity

[Marauder Moe]

When it comes to discussing Armageddon roleplaying on the GDB, I probably have a reputation for being conservative.  When people ask "would Zalanthans know X" or "would commoners say Y" I'm more likely to suggest that the answer is "no" or "probably not".

It occurs to me, though, that I've never really explained why this is.  It's not because I'm a grumpy old hard-ass veteran (though I'm not denying that I may be those things  ).  It's because, in roleplay and just about any other aspect of life, limitations spur creativity.  When you limit your language, by say eliminating anachronistic concepts and vocabulary, you're forced to be more creative in its use.  More creative language, of course, adds more flavor to the game setting, rather than us just speaking plain old English that might be appropriate in any other domain.

Citations:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/11/need-to-create-get-a-constraint/
http://www.creativitypost.com/psychology/does_creativity_require_constraints

[Maker]

Agree.  For example,  I've never enjoyed contemporary expletives being used in the game.  It is lazy (as is the use of an expletive in any scenario in life), but, more importantly, it breaks immersion.  I agree that limitations do result in creative solutions and wish more people would consider how they say something a little more before saying something.  Same goes for employing any other contemporary concept in game.  That, said, however, there are some players who can really maintain a fast paced rhythm when RPing (emoting, speaking, actions) while others take 2 minutes to just type a one-line response.  It might be that disparity that forces the slower ones to just blurt something quickly to keep pace in the scene.  With practice, though, I think everyone has the capablity to construct a new, more appropriate frame of reference while playing which would eventually lead to naturally thinking, actnig, and speaking as somone in Zalanthas might.

[evilcabbage]

Instead of fuck, we say kank.
Instead of bullshit, we say kankshit (we actually say bullshittoo)
Instead of "That bitch is HOT!" "That woman has the Sun King/Highlord's blessings!"
Instead of "Damn, she's got nice tits", "Look at them ginka's on her chest!"

Instead of "He's a muscle-bound freak!" "Krath, he's got stones in his arms!"
Instead of "Crap, shit, fuck, damn" we say "Krath!"

That kind of creativity?

[Dakota]

i read the title of this thread and thought it was gonna be about iso clans and making it interesting when you're stuck in a back-ass area w. hoards of restrictions.

[Gilgamesh]

I'm a fairly creative person. I've created two 100% original (at least I never seen them used or mentioned once) for two things - tribals and obsidian coins. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I can share as they would probably give who my character.

[hyzhenhok]

I do it a lot too. The trick is to create a slang term for something, but still leave it obvious what you're talking about. No one has to ask, and suddenly it's as though you're using real Zalanthan slang even though you're the only player doing it.

And if you're lucky, maybe other players will start using it too.

[The Lonely Hunter]

I am much the same way as the OP and I am glad to see it isn't just me that is a grumpy old man.

I would also like to point out that ginka fruit is about the size of a human fist and is covered with spikes. Just saying.

[Harmless]

Thanks for posting Moe. You can always count on that guy to post something helpful around here.

I can't compete, and this is totally off topic, but here's a link I used once when digging for ways to describe a character's nose, which is lush with helpful adjectives for describing all sorts of things.

Adjectives to describe a nose

warning, a lot of these words are totally anachronistic. I wouldn't exactly expect to see the word Quadrangular, for instance, but it's a fun list as long as we're playing show and tell

[Maso]

Great link! Not sure all of them are really that suitable for noses...but useful nonetheless, and quite amusing.

the incomprehensibly-nosed woman is here

[Akaramu]

As a non-native english player, I have to put things in whatever way to come to mind, if I don't want to bore all of you by mulling something over for five minutes, and consulting alternative terms provided by online translator programs. No one seems to notice, but I -really- struggle with expressing something just the way I want to express it, sometimes. I have a feeling other non-native speakers, especially ones without decades of writing practice feel the same way.

I have a really, really hard time coming up with creative swear words for the same reasons. Fathi will forever annihilate me in swearing contests.  

Hey, I'm a grumpy old veteran when it comes to some topics, as well. But language is quite strongly an OOC construct that puts some of our players at a disadvantage.

[Lizzie]

I tend not to come up with obvious alternatives for perfectly useful words (like "shet" or "shite" for "shit"). I don't like them, they don't sit well with me. They look like obvious alternatives. In my head, I can't help but feel that someone thinks "oh this word, "shit," is a bad word, and there are kids playing this game so I shall endeavor to not offend them" while their chest spews blood all over their enemy's boots.

It's just too contrived-looking for my taste. Some of my characters curse like a trucker. Some don't curse at all. Most toss one or two in, every now and then. But they're usually the American-English version of an actual vulgarity, spelled properly. Fuck, shit, damn, tits, balls, etc. Some words make me uncomfortable to type out for some reason, but those are words I don't use in real life either so coming up with alternatives isn't a stretch. Like, the C word - snatch, hole, twat - all reasonable alternatives. And all still American-English-familiar words, spelled properly.
If I had to create an interesting substitute word just to mask vulgarity, I'd spend too much time doing that, and not enough time actually RPing whatever scene I'm in that's requiring such a word in the first place. So I don't do that.

[Patuk]

Funny, I love not being a native English speaker when my characters start swearing.. I can channel all the languages and let the ragefest of anger-filled goodness begin.

[Synthesis]

Spur and spurn are different words.

"Limitations spur creativity" and "limitations spurn creativity" mean quite different things...although I'm not sure the second isn't nonsensical.

[MeTekillot]

If creativity is a sentient cosmic being, maybe.

[Marauder Moe]

Bah.

[catchall]

I tend not to come up with obvious alternatives for perfectly useful words (like "shet" or "shite" for "shit"). I don't like them, they don't sit well with me. They look like obvious alternatives.

I agree with this, and I don't think much is gained for the game by switching vowels around, although I have had characters that have used "fuck" as a verb and "feck" as a noun.

However, I will never, ever, ever use gendered insults in game: bitch, etc.  There just isn't the cultural context of gender inequality to make those kind of insults meaningful. And I don't buy that business of "oh, it means a gortok bitch." Oh really, it means "gortok"? Your PC calls other PCs they don't like "gortoks"? That's interesting, because I've heard lots of female PCs referred to as "bitch" but never once heard a male PC referred to by any gortok-related term.

I think this is a great example of Moe's case for limitations and creativity, where we should limit our impulses to use certain insults out of laziness and OOC ease, because it actually does give us an opportunity to look for something that is congruent with the culture of the game world. There is almost always some IC-appropriate characteristic that can provide an appropriate slur--race, social class, place of origin, etc.

[Dalmeth]

Bah.

Well, they went and got creative.

[catchall]

For example,  I've never enjoyed contemporary expletives being used in the game.  It is lazy (as is the use of an expletive in any scenario in life), but, more importantly, it breaks immersion.

I saw this post a while ago but didn't bother to jump into the conversation, but now that I'm in the thread, might as well comment.

It's worth noting as well that "shit" for excrement has been attested since early Old English at least (meaning it surely dates back even further to West Germanic), and "fuck" is actually first attested a half-century earlier than "lazy."  True, their use as one-off interjections is rather more recent--mid-19th century or so in the case of "shit"--primarily because religious taboo words predominated as interjections before then. You'll have a hard time getting rid of all the word usages that have been developed in the last century and a half though, to put it mildly. These terms are certainly nothing new, so my take is that their value as pejoratives depends on Zalanthan cultural context.

There's a case to be made that since dung (animal dung at least) is a resource on Zalanthas in a way that is salient to most people, not merely a pure waste product, its use as a vulgar interjection makes less sense. However, excrement is also associated with the lower class, Bynners and such, so there's a strong counterpoint that it would take on pejorative meaning. Likewise, Zalanthans seem to have fewer sexual hangups, which might make "fuck" carry less weight, but there are strong sexual taboos in domains specific to Zalanthas, like sex between different humanoid races and across social classes. You'd have a hard time making a case that "breedfucker" isn't a perfectly well-formed Zalanthan insult.

Also, re: expletives being "lazy," this is a nice example of a language ideology--an attitude speakers have about use of the language and other speakers of that language--but it certainly doesn't correspond to any objective reality or fact about language.

[Synthesis]

I tend not to come up with obvious alternatives for perfectly useful words (like "shet" or "shite" for "shit"). I don't like them, they don't sit well with me. They look like obvious alternatives.

I agree with this, and I don't think much is gained for the game by switching vowels around, although I have had characters that have used "fuck" as a verb and "feck" as a noun.

However, I will never, ever, ever use gendered insults in game: bitch, etc.  There just isn't the cultural context of gender inequality to make those kind of insults meaningful. And I don't buy that business of "oh, it means a gortok bitch." Oh really, it means "gortok"? Your PC calls other PCs they don't like "gortoks"? That's interesting, because I've heard lots of female PCs referred to as "bitch" but never once heard a male PC referred to by any gortok-related term.

I think this is a great example of Moe's case for limitations and creativity, where we should limit our impulses to use certain insults out of laziness and OOC ease, because it actually does give us an opportunity to look for something that is congruent with the culture of the game world. There is almost always some IC-appropriate characteristic that can provide an appropriate slur--race, social class, place of origin, etc.

It wouldn't make sense to call a male Zalanthan a "bitch," because bitches are female.  I agree that Zalanthans wouldn't use the word "bitch" in its RL context meaning weakness or cowardice (e.g. "He totally bitched out of that fight"), but it would be fine to use it to use it in its context of ornery, cantankerous, disagreeable, etc.  So yes, you can call a female Zalanthan a bitch, and it isn't a violation of gender equality--as long as you're using it appropriately.

[Kalai]

Swear (heh) I've seen 'tok used as a gender neutral equivalent vs male PCs. 

[greasygemo]

Ibe used 'tok brained, 'tok faced, son of a 'tok, and bitch (in reference to someone being nasty/testy).. Gortoks are a versatile insult animal!

It's all context. One PC might say, "You 'tok toothed, tregil bellied breed lover." and another might say, "You have the countenance of a snaggled gortok, the bravery of a cornered tregil and I would not be amazed to learn you engage in sexual acts with half elven miscreants."

[IntuitiveApathy]

I tend not to come up with obvious alternatives for perfectly useful words (like "shet" or "shite" for "shit"). I don't like them, they don't sit well with me. They look like obvious alternatives. In my head, I can't help but feel that someone thinks "oh this word, "shit," is a bad word, and there are kids playing this game so I shall endeavor to not offend them" while their chest spews blood all over their enemy's boots.

It's just too contrived-looking for my taste. Some of my characters curse like a trucker. Some don't curse at all. Most toss one or two in, every now and then. But they're usually the American-English version of an actual vulgarity, spelled properly. Fuck, shit, damn, tits, balls, etc. Some words make me uncomfortable to type out for some reason, but those are words I don't use in real life either so coming up with alternatives isn't a stretch. Like, the C word - snatch, hole, twat - all reasonable alternatives. And all still American-English-familiar words, spelled properly.
If I had to create an interesting substitute word just to mask vulgarity, I'd spend too much time doing that, and not enough time actually RPing whatever scene I'm in that's requiring such a word in the first place. So I don't do that.

I don't think vulgarity censorship is the reason why people use these "obvious alternatives" - at least it's not why I use them when I do.  I do so to convey a character's manner of speaking, in the same way truncation, etc is used.  I know in the past you've railed on the latter and are firmly in the coded accent camp, but just thought I'd say.  I expect you to also think that in addition to censorship that this is a bad reason, which I will say will not in any way prevent me from continuing to play in this manner.

[catchall]

Swear (heh) I've seen 'tok used as a gender neutral equivalent vs male PCs. 

Could well be that it circulates in PC subcultures I'm not familiar with.  Though I'd submit in counterpoint that since "gortok" is gender-neutral, it's fantastic and preferable to use it against female PCs as well. If the contrast is between a female-specific term and a gender-neutral term, that's a clue that they're not really equivalent. It just seems like all too flimsy of justification to import a heavily loaded and unambiguously sexist term.

It wouldn't make sense to call a male Zalanthan a "bitch," because bitches are female.

Zalanthans also aren't gortoks. That just isn't how metaphor works. There's a reason people choose the word "bitch," and it's not because of special characteristics of female gortoks. (Which there may well be, but if that was the point, saying "female gortok" would carry the same weight, and it doesn't.) And it's definitely not because of special characteristics that correspond, specially and specifically, to characteristics of female humanoids.

[Synthesis]

It wouldn't make sense to call a male Zalanthan a "bitch," because bitches are female.

Zalanthans also aren't gortoks.

Neither are they assholes, dicks, shit-stains, turds, or tregils.  What's your point? 

There's a reason people choose the word "bitch," and it's not because of special characteristics of female gortoks.

Okay, so what's this mysterious reason?  At any rate, an insult doesn't have to pertain to the special characteristics of anything.  There isn't anything particularly noteworthy in terms of negative characteristics about people who prefer sex with older women, but motherfucker is still an insult.  Insults don't have to make any sense at all.  We don't call males "dicks" because there's some special negative characteristic of penises that is applicable to men, but none of us are complaining about it.

(Which there may well be, but if that was the point, saying "female gortok" would carry the same weight, and it doesn't.)

Are you new to the insult game? Polysyllabic technical derogatory terms went out of style around...I don't know...the 18th century, I'm guessing.  At any rate, calling someone a "male gortok" wouldn't carry the same weight, either.  You wouldn't call someone a breed-lover by saying, "and your sexual preferences tend toward those of elven descent!".  Unless you're a noble or something, I suppose.

And it's definitely not because of special characteristics that correspond, specially and specifically, to characteristics of female humanoids.

Is being female not a characteristic of female humanoids?  Anyway, as I've said:  dick is the equivalent term for males (unless you've got some argument proposing that dick isn't gender-specific).  Asshole is the gender-neutral term.  None of them make sense, so your entire argument at this point hinges on this unstated reason for using the word "bitch" that apparently I'm not familiar with.

[AreteX]

I for one find myself lacking with Zalanthian terminology when I am playing the game, but then again I am not a very oldschool player.  I've tried accents, different ways of spelling things and all of that but I find it more difficult to just get the message out so I revert back to regular old english terms :0

I hope the rest of you don't look down on my roleplay or other people's roleplay because we use terms that are used in the real world.  I'm not talking about robots and such, but just speaking in a regular way when we play our characters.  The lack of ten synonyms for eating or fucking something doesn't mean that we don't create and control compelling characters.