Which ARM 2 idea would you most like to see implemented?

[Nyr]

Nyr, you've got me all wrong. You see me all nitpicking and complaints. I see you all staff-hours and awesome. You plug it in like no one else. I'm not blind. That doesn't stop my passion for the game and where I'd like to see it headed. So I want a renaissance. What's to cry over.

No one can deny that a lot of gorgeous concepts and creativity went into Arm2. It wasn't a black hole. It's an abortion, but the sex was good. I'm startled to find you snarking back on what's only an open ended embrace toward what made armageddon great in the first place. A love for the creative process and a basis in storytelling. We're rooted in D&D, after all.

Not really an attempt to snark; when I want to snark, I will absolutely do it in order to prove a point (and I won't put a smiley face in it most of the time).  I like your post here for the most part.  I'd like to explain:  if you take issue with the way things are in the current game or the way they have been, if you're not careful about how you do it, you're going to raise some hackles.  I'll get back to that in a moment.

Your original post implied several things that have already been addressed by staff in the thread we used to dialogue with players about things.  Chiefly among those things we discussed in that thread (and maybe a couple of other threads):

1.  There was not an overlapping staff for Arm 2 and Arm 1 in the majority of cases.
2.  There were a lot of things that came about from Arm 2's development and cancellation that would not have come about without even the attempt for Reborn.  (A lot of you are the beneficiaries of those implementations in some fashion!)

Now--I can totally get the idea that something "feels" stagnant.  You're perfectly entitled to that opinion.  In fact, on a short-term basis, any role can feel that way (in my humble opinion), and I've had to struggle through it when I play characters.  However, you're referring to the game itself as a whole, not any individual and more addressable parts.  Hopefully you can also totally grok that when you bring that up in a discussion board, you open yourself up to having evidence of the contrary pointed out to you.  You can't really argue with evidence, just like I can't really argue with your feelings.  (In other words, a measurable amount of "stuff" definitely happened and you cannot deny that fact.  However, I cannot deny that your feelings are such that the "stuff" that did happen doesn't rise above the level of "stagnant play," at least in your opinion).  That's all I wanted to do.  You put up your side of it, I tossed up our side of it.  It doesn't really need to become a poopy storm.

In conclusion:  we've definitely got some plans that we are actively working on as a team.  However, we have learned a lot of lessons about putting the cart before the horse.  Stay tuned, enjoy what you have right now, and you'll be seeing even more stuff that we hope will blow your minds (because we want tasty brains).  Back to the thread at hand!

[Pale Horse]

Things I would have liked to have seen in Arm.2?

The crafting system.
The new way the guilds were described.
The destruction of the city-states and implementation of more, smaller villages/towns.
The underground civilization.
Greater literacy.

Really, it was the implementation of smaller population areas that had my attention.  I like our city-states, but I have grown jut a bit bored with them.  I'd like to see a new power-structure take over the Known.

[Patuk]

That said, when i look at Tuluk i often think that someday literacy might be promoted there. It is something I think the player leadership can someday manage to accomplish actually since I've seen them accomplish so much more in hopes of winning the love of the people. I do think the game world would be richer if PCs with half decent jobs and positions would be taught to read and write. The books would need to be approved but at least finding out history and stories ICly wouldn't be a complete and total joke then.

I'm hijacking a thread here, and people might hate me for it, but here, I think you're taking on a completely faulty view of the world.

Basically.. Tuluk is by no means a modern civilisation. The nobility could care less about the love of the people. The templarate could care less about the love of the people. The Highlord could care less about the love of the people. In no way does Tuluk's ruling class care more about the common folk than the Allanaki upper class does, nor will they ever consider gaining the favour of the people a goal onto its own. The nobility, templarate, and Highlord of either city care about but one thing: power.

Yes, power. Power over the commoners, power over the rest of their house, power over the other noble houses, power over the templarate if they can manage it, power over anything they can handle. The north isn't a more gentle place because the nobles are nicer. The northen nobles don't mingle with the commoners to a certain degree because they like them. The only reason they socialise and befriend people they consider beneath them is because it means extra hands and heads for them to employ in whichever task they might try to do. Even if a noble might genuinely like a commoner, he won't ever forget his search for more influence while befriending him.

But spreading literacy? Forget it. There is no way anybody would ever spread that. The power I just mentioned? Handing out literacy to any commoner at all goes directly against all I just mentioned. The nobility and templarate alike guard every privilege, right and secret they have, all in order to ensure that they remain powerful and the commoners remain common and unassuming. Sharing literacy? It would mean a great blow at the foundation of the upper class' power. It would vaguen the entire border between who is common and who isn't. It would bring the common folk dangerously close to seeing how powerful they could be. For any noble or templar to share it would be directly against their own interests and everything they stand for and would mean a severe weakening to their position as the ruling class of their city. For it to happen through IC motivations is.. Inconceivable.

[Fredd]

Nyr, you've got me all wrong. You see me all nitpicking and complaints. I see you all staff-hours and awesome. You plug it in like no one else. I'm not blind. That doesn't stop my passion for the game and where I'd like to see it headed. So I want a renaissance. What's to cry over.

No one can deny that a lot of gorgeous concepts and creativity went into Arm2. It wasn't a black hole. It's an abortion, but the sex was good. I'm startled to find you snarking back on what's only an open ended embrace toward what made armageddon great in the first place. A love for the creative process and a basis in storytelling. We're rooted in D&D, after all.

Not really an attempt to snark; when I want to snark, I will absolutely do it in order to prove a point (and I won't put a smiley face in it most of the time).  I like your post here for the most part.  I'd like to explain:  if you take issue with the way things are in the current game or the way they have been, if you're not careful about how you do it, you're going to raise some hackles.  I'll get back to that in a moment.

Your original post implied several things that have already been addressed by staff in the thread we used to dialogue with players about things.  Chiefly among those things we discussed in that thread (and maybe a couple of other threads):

1.  There was not an overlapping staff for Arm 2 and Arm 1 in the majority of cases.
2.  There were a lot of things that came about from Arm 2's development and cancellation that would not have come about without even the attempt for Reborn.  (A lot of you are the beneficiaries of those implementations in some fashion!)

Now--I can totally get the idea that something "feels" stagnant.  You're perfectly entitled to that opinion.  In fact, on a short-term basis, any role can feel that way (in my humble opinion), and I've had to struggle through it when I play characters.  However, you're referring to the game itself as a whole, not any individual and more addressable parts.  Hopefully you can also totally grok that when you bring that up in a discussion board, you open yourself up to having evidence of the contrary pointed out to you.  You can't really argue with evidence, just like I can't really argue with your feelings.  (In other words, a measurable amount of "stuff" definitely happened and you cannot deny that fact.  However, I cannot deny that your feelings are such that the "stuff" that did happen doesn't rise above the level of "stagnant play," at least in your opinion).  That's all I wanted to do.  You put up your side of it, I tossed up our side of it.  It doesn't really need to become a poopy storm.

In conclusion:  we've definitely got some plans that we are actively working on as a team.  However, we have learned a lot of lessons about putting the cart before the horse.  Stay tuned, enjoy what you have right now, and you'll be seeing even more stuff that we hope will blow your minds (because we want tasty brains).  Back to the thread at hand!

This wont happen often, But I agree with Nyr. Although we are now slightly off topic.

Things really really are not stagnant. Take it from someone that has played 2 clan leader pc's recently. Staff are majorly involved. So much so I was very shocked at the amount of interaction I got. They helped me with many differant plots for the people i lead, and the people who were against me politically, while still, in the majority of cases, letting me do my own thing, and make my own choices.

Can things feel stagnant? Yes. My current pc isn't connected to anything in any way, and yes, things can feel stagnant at times. But I know that if I wanted to, I could go out, and find 'plots' so to speak. But the time isn't right for my pc yet.

[Dresan]

That said, when i look at Tuluk i often think that someday literacy might be promoted there. It is something I think the player leadership can someday manage to accomplish actually since I've seen them accomplish so much more in hopes of winning the love of the people. I do think the game world would be richer if PCs with half decent jobs and positions would be taught to read and write. The books would need to be approved but at least finding out history and stories ICly wouldn't be a complete and total joke then.

I'm hijacking a thread here, and people might hate me for it, but here, I think you're taking on a completely faulty view of the world.

Basically.. Tuluk is by no means a modern civilisation. The nobility could care less about the love of the people. The templarate could care less about the love of the people. The Highlord could care less about the love of the people. In no way does Tuluk's ruling class care more about the common folk than the Allanaki upper class does, nor will they ever consider gaining the favour of the people a goal onto its own. The nobility, templarate, and Highlord of either city care about but one thing: power.

Yes, power. Power over the commoners, power over the rest of their house, power over the other noble houses, power over the templarate if they can manage it, power over anything they can handle. The north isn't a more gentle place because the nobles are nicer. The northen nobles don't mingle with the commoners to a certain degree because they like them. The only reason they socialise and befriend people they consider beneath them is because it means extra hands and heads for them to employ in whichever task they might try to do. Even if a noble might genuinely like a commoner, he won't ever forget his search for more influence while befriending him.

But spreading literacy? Forget it. There is no way anybody would ever spread that. The power I just mentioned? Handing out literacy to any commoner at all goes directly against all I just mentioned. The nobility and templarate alike guard every privilege, right and secret they have, all in order to ensure that they remain powerful and the commoners remain common and unassuming. Sharing literacy? It would mean a great blow at the foundation of the upper class' power. It would vaguen the entire border between who is common and who isn't. It would bring the common folk dangerously close to seeing how powerful they could be. For any noble or templar to share it would be directly against their own interests and everything they stand for and would mean a severe weakening to their position as the ruling class of their city. For it to happen through IC motivations is.. Inconceivable.

Well at the risk of derailing this thread further (and i think someone may need to take this elsewhere soon), let us not forget that Tuluk is the way it currently is because the people did something unthinkable. Nobility with the support of the people rioted against the Templarate and militia once upon a time. I think you underestimate the power of public support in Tuluk just a tad, mind you its not as great as being a sun-king but it can help you get some things done. At the very least, with public support you will accumulate the best toys (PCs) and that will help you aquire better social standing amongst your peers which means a lot more in Tuluk then it does in other places in the known, i feel. Its kinda funny because even in today's age do you really think your politicians care about you, like you, or want to spend time listening to you? Maybe some, but most just want your vote and then want you to fuck off.  Now that said, your point of view may not be necessarily wrong so since there are some people who think it would be oocly great to have more literacy, let me throw some other reasons then:

1. Each house may benefit from having more literate PC. More educated loyal PCs may mean more power for the house as they record more data, experiences, ideas and technologies for the house to use after they die. Thus power for the house especially over other houses, especially as an additional benefit for attracting talent people or bards. This doesn't mean everyone will be taught to read (heck do you even know what the literacy rates for Detroit are in our age?). Seriously forget virtual, don't even expect every PC to learn to read either, just like a lot of PC don't learn ever language in the game.

2. There is a super power to the south which collects atomic bombs called magickers. There are some who may want to find more ways of strengthening their people. Or using reading as on offensive tool, teaching its people to read so they can in turn teach the enemy, and then using new book called "The bible of muk-utep" to begin converting people in the south. Religion (which to my surprise amusement i feel is emerging in Tuluk but that is also another thread) is excellent weapon against any enemy just ask the Roman Emperor Constantine.

3. Everything about Tuluk is propaganda, sure there aren't any books, but alot of songs, painting, dawing and poems. Some people might consider being able to read about the greatness of the Sun-king over and over a good thing. Its not like any book will be mass published without the templarate approving it.  The people thinking about anything negative might somehow disappear.

Anyways, before everyone burns these ideas down, I'm sure there are people who can come up with better reasoning. The idea that learning reading and writing would decay the power of the nobility and templarate hold over the people is simply not true, and the real sad part is that our world and modern age has plenty of examples of how the rich and influential keep power regardless of what any of us might say or write despite our freedom of speech.  At the end, who cares why it is promoted, again if it makes 'Find out ICly' less of a joke, I'm all for it.

[Patuk]

I'm going to go over these points in the most civilised manner that I can, so I really am hoping I'm not coming across as abrasive or sarcastic in here.

1. Each house may benefit from having more literate PC. More educated loyal PCs may mean more power for the house as they record more data, experiences, ideas and technologies for the house to use after they die. Thus power for the house especially over other houses, especially as an additional benefit for attracting talent people or bards. This doesn't mean everyone will be taught to read (heck do you even know what the literacy rates for Detroit are in our age?). Seriously forget virtual, don't even expect every PC to learn to read either, just like a lot of PC don't learn ever language in the game.

Even if having literate PCs will benefit a House on a level you and I can see.. In the NPC and vNPC world, it makes no difference. The literate employees of any house, if they are slaves or commoners, are highly secret and nobody anywhere knows them; they certainly aren't going to show up in bars to brag about the books they wrote. Your point about languages isn't applicable, either - if you speak sirihish, you can communicate with anyone who isn't a highly isolated desert elf. If you can't read.. Good luck asking that noble what's in the book he's reading right now.

2. There is a super power to the south which collects atomic bombs called magickers. There are some who may want to find more ways of strengthening their people. Or using reading as on offensive tool, teaching its people to read so they can in turn teach the enemy, and then using new book called "The bible of muk-utep" to begin converting people in the south. Religion (which to my surprise amusement i feel is emerging in Tuluk but that is also another thread) is excellent weapon against any enemy just ask the Roman Emperor Constantine.

As an offensive tool.. I don't see this happening either. The vast majority of humanity has always been illiterate up until this year, and even then, I'm not sure, and during this time, people have come up with ways to spread information. Epic poems and songs that can last hours on end rhyme for a reason - it allows a single poet to remember a story spanning hours to tell and centuries to recount all by himself. Tuluk has a powerful bardic culture; if it wishes to convert people, it could tap into that with far greater ease and effect than with books. To use your example of emperor Constantine - Constantine certainly didn't have his people read, either. All was good as long as they knew he was in charge by god's will.

3. Everything about Tuluk is propaganda, sure there aren't any books, but alot of songs, painting, dawing and poems. Some people might consider being able to read about the greatness of the Sun-king over and over a good thing. Its not like any book will be mass published without the templarate approving it.  The people thinking about anything negative might somehow disappear.

You're.. Really disproving your own argument here. There is songs, paintings, drawings, poems, murals, stories, carvings.. Everything in either city state can be used for propaganda. The problem is that allowing the commoners to read won't just make them be able to read propaganda, it'll allow them to do a whole array of things the rulers would -not- enjoy; for that reason, they stick to what crowd-control methods they already have.

[Patuk]

As an added thought, though.. If so many people want for more literacy simply because 'find out IC' is impossible 99% of the time, maybe the list of things made OOCly available should be expanded rather than that an ICly unlikely change be made.

[Jingo]

The only reason that literacy is tightly controlled is because the documentation says that literacy is tightly controlled. :/

Realistically, illiterate classes would start to utilize their own inscriptions as necessity dictates. Which would eventually evolve into some sort of written form. A chalton rancher wouldn't be able to keep track of more than a hundred chaltons without without writing something down. How many new chaltons were born this year, how many should I cull for leather, maybe I should trade a few to rancher amos for a bag of tubers, I'll mark down a receipt for him.

And honestly, it wouldn't take more than a few generations for a system of inscriptions are widely adopted among the merchant class when there is nothing but a vacuum already in existence. So either just about all those stalls and shops in the cities  are run by exclusively the literate GMHs or the templarate is constantly breaking up new writing systems as they appear.

But like status quo and omnipotent god-kings or whatever.

Edit: I think expanding literacy in Tuluk would be a cool new thing. It would give the center of art in the known world an even more renaissance flair.

[Dresan]

As an added thought, though.. If so many people want for more literacy simply because 'find out IC' is impossible 99% of the time, maybe the list of things made OOCly available should be expanded rather than that an ICly unlikely change be made.

I didn't read your arguments against each of my ideas detail because its moot. The Roman emperor reference had to do more with the power of religion converting an enemy then reading but that is another topic all together so i digress again. Now that doesn't mean i think the argument you wrote are bad,I'm sure they are good just that its not the point of my post.  In retrospect it was probably a waste of time to write down those ideas off top of my head. However i stated that before anyone bothered to waste their time shooting them down, that main idea was that IC literacy could be promoted ICly. That is my fault for making a post that did not get right to the point, i apologize. 

Frankly if some PC tuluki noble feels like they want to try to promote literacy for some half-assed reason i think they might pull it off or they might get axed by the staff. Who knows. I do believe that reading and writing would not erode the power of the nobility or templarate. We see still see tyranny in our world despite of it and i think it would be a breeze to control in a world where some people can read you mind, never mind a piece of paper.   I can see reading and writing being more of a problem in Allanak, but not so much in Tuluk.

Lastly, i want to be able to find out ICly not OOCly. Perhaps there is another way, maybe bard NPC or special clan boards that players could submit stories to. Depending on your rank and position, you could have access to these NPC and learn the stories of past players and learn what really happened ICly in the past during certain events. These stories would be scattered across the known, kept by NPC or special boards as stories once told by long dead pc, told again and again by bards and people through the ages.

[Riya OniSenshi]

Seriously - take the derail to its own thread, please.

[FantasyWriter]

The end of established monopolies and centuries-old immovable powers and a chance for players to build up a world and its documentation as it evolved naturally rather than being restrained by unchangable social, political, cultural, economical, even style norms that have existed unchanged for Zalanthan centuries.

Reminds me of the Stargate episodes where worlds that the Asgard had protected were still at the exact same point of social/cultural/style evolution as they were in the Viking age, just over a millennia ago on Earth, despite spending a thousand years on an alien world completely protected from outside threats to hinder social and technological evolution.

[Voular]

Tobacco, god damnit.

[Morrolan]

A tobacco-like, near-ubiquitous drug that people smoke for RP purposes.

(beat)

Otherwise, probably (licensed and limited) literacy, with professional scribes.

And if I needed a third option? The new, more complex language code/system.

[palomar]

Ghaati. Crafting. Adevari.

[Morrolan]

A tobacco-like, near-ubiquitous drug that people smoke for RP purposes.

Though, on that note, I would like to see Allanak allow one, and only one, type of spice for common consumption.

[greasygemo]

Tobacco, god damnit.

Word. Smoking is badass.

Oooh, maybe use it like bioshock, where it increases stamina (instead of eve) at a cost to health??

[Erythil]

A project I've been working on for nigh two years now will likely never be finished...at least not in its intended form...the Sea of Silt revamp.

But I have great hopes that my work will be put to good use in the new game, and in fact, starting from scratch offers a lot of opportunities to do things better this time around.

For a little background, the Sea of Silt was built and expanded over a number of years by different imms, all with different visions and styles. When I started on the project with Eniriah, it was a bit messy. Subjective room descs, typos, and such gems as "The sea continues in all directions" and "There is nothing of note here." And don't even get me started on the mapping.

The Sea is composed of over 1500 rooms in 6 different zones, and I went through and fixed them all, as well as adding a number of new features...logical mapping, varying depths, consistent room descriptions. Daigon wrote up a number of new creatures to fill out the food chain, and a number of crafts were written up for their skinning products and the forageables found in the Sea (like silt pearls).

Ironically, while this took months of work, the really cool feature was done by Morgenes in the space of a couple of weeks: a revamped silt skimmer which could be pirated. The first leg of this came when tables were made stand-at-able. With another wave of his wand, Morgenes made skimmers into a furniture object which could be sat or stood at. One could go from skimmer to skimmer as easily as swapping tables in a tavern (well, with a bit more risk). We envisioned the Sea as a harsh place of exploration and piracy, with rare resources and no shelter from the elements.

Another couple of small code projects and Sea piracy would have been implemented.

But I have to say I'm really glad that I have a chance (if approved) to start over with a new and probably different concept. I never really bought into the concept of silt as a terrain which could swallow you up yet somehow could be navigated through non-magickal means (i.e. skimmers). It's not water (nor will it ever be, I hope) but it had the properties of water.

I also think this move will give me a better chance to implement death-by-drowning in a more interesting way than BEEP you're dead.

Maybe this has been implemented, since I've not been to the area to check it out, but it sounds cool.

[Refugee]

I really miss being able to keep IC journals, my PCs have usually done that on other RPIs.  How cool it is to find someone's journal from years past.  Also it's a great way for staff to start up little (or not so little) plots for players who love solving puzzles/mysteries.

Unofficial clans/crews being able to rent or buy a large place to live or at least store stuff that they could all get to would be so helpful.  Warehouses?

I really enjoy the huge world to explore, with all its flavors.

[marko]

I really miss being able to keep IC journals, my PCs have usually done that on other RPIs.  How cool it is to find someone's journal from years past.  Also it's a great way for staff to start up little (or not so little) plots for players who love solving puzzles/mysteries.

Use biography.  Perhaps it doesn't leave a record after your death for all to read but it is there and you can access it yourself from the website which is very cool.   

[solera]

I really miss being able to keep IC journals, my PCs have usually done that on other RPIs.  How cool it is to find someone's journal from years past.  Also it's a great way for staff to start up little (or not so little) plots for players who love solving puzzles/mysteries.

Use biography.  Perhaps it doesn't leave a record after your death for all to read but it is there and you can access it yourself from the website which is very cool.   

Was there a suggestion from staff, when Arm 2 was coming up, that Bios may become open (with players permission)?

[Morrolan]

I think a "commune with the dead" spell that pulls a random entry from a database of dead people's bio entries would be a cool little feature.

The Year of Lirathu's Flamboyance, 76th age, 23rd day of the ascending moon:

I was in the tavern down south, again, when this dame walks up to me. She had this really nice dragon necklace on. She looked like something was bothering her, and we got to chatting.

She talked funny as anything, but she was super-cute. Nice robe, too. It really matched her blue eyes.

Anyway, like I was saying, something was bothering her. There's good news, though! I think she's into me. She wants me to come with her...something about cuddling...

[FantasyWriter]

I think a "commune with the dead" spell that pulls a random entry from a database of dead people's bio entries would be a cool little feature.

The Year of Lirathu's Flamboyance, 76th age, 23rd day of the ascending moon:

I was in the tavern down south, again, when this dame walks up to me. She had this really nice dragon necklace on. She looked like something was bothering her, and we got to chatting.

She talked funny as anything, but she was super-cute. Nice robe, too. It really matched her blue eyes.

Anyway, like I was saying, something was bothering her. There's good news, though! I think she's into me. She wants me to come with her...something about cuddling...

Oh... f'in... wow.

[Feco]

I think a "commune with the dead" spell that pulls a random entry from a database of dead people's bio entries would be a cool little feature.

The Year of Lirathu's Flamboyance, 76th age, 23rd day of the ascending moon:

I was in the tavern down south, again, when this dame walks up to me. She had this really nice dragon necklace on. She looked like something was bothering her, and we got to chatting.

She talked funny as anything, but she was super-cute. Nice robe, too. It really matched her blue eyes.

Anyway, like I was saying, something was bothering her. There's good news, though! I think she's into me. She wants me to come with her...something about cuddling...

Oh... f'in... wow.

I'd become the worst spam-caster.

[Morrolan]

I think a "commune with the dead" spell that pulls a random entry from a database of dead people's bio entries would be a cool little feature.

The Year of Lirathu's Flamboyance, 76th age, 23rd day of the ascending moon:

I was in the tavern down south, again, when this dame walks up to me. She had this really nice dragon necklace on. She looked like something was bothering her, and we got to chatting.

She talked funny as anything, but she was super-cute. Nice robe, too. It really matched her blue eyes.

Anyway, like I was saying, something was bothering her. There's good news, though! I think she's into me. She wants me to come with her...something about cuddling...

Oh... f'in... wow.

I'd become the worst spam-caster.

We could solve that by giving it an IG hour lag-time, and have it lower max health for another while. 

[Maso]

I think a "commune with the dead" spell that pulls a random entry from a database of dead people's bio entries would be a cool little feature.

The Year of Lirathu's Flamboyance, 76th age, 23rd day of the ascending moon:

I was in the tavern down south, again, when this dame walks up to me. She had this really nice dragon necklace on. She looked like something was bothering her, and we got to chatting.

She talked funny as anything, but she was super-cute. Nice robe, too. It really matched her blue eyes.

Anyway, like I was saying, something was bothering her. There's good news, though! I think she's into me. She wants me to come with her...something about cuddling...

That would be increddddibly awesome.