Spirituality (Particularly Allanaki)

[Erisine]

I'm trying to wrap my head around something that seems to be weirdly missing:  religion!  (Yes, it's one of THOSE posts!)

Particularly in Allanak, there's a lot of elements that suggest some sort of religion should exist, but it's not very clear what beliefs characters might have.  For example, most seem to believe in elemental personifications -- Vivadu, Krath, etc -- which can be taken as actual gods or just a really fancy way of saying "water and fire."  Then there's also the Dragon, who has set himself up as a God-King and demands blind allegience/loyalty from all his subjects (under punishment of horrible Templary things).  Throw in magickers, and now you've got a lot of crossed wires.  And since I know it's going to come up, saying that "The world is too harsh to think about that!" is just a cop-out, since despite all the bad juju in Zalanthas, our characters seem to have a longer natural lifespan than most people in the Dark Ages (well, the obedient sheep do, anyway).

So, here are my queestions:

1.)  Does Tektolnes out-rank the elemental spiritual gods?  Is he viewed as having more actual power than they do?
2.)  Are Krath/Vivadu/etc. viewed as outcast gods?  Is there some accepted explanation for magickers concerning them, and why it's "okay" to demonize them or, for Allanak, enslave them?
3.)  What in the world do Tulukis think of all this?  Do they have their own god-king, or do they think Allanakis are just $%*#@ idiots?
4.)  Is there any group (including desert elves) that are viewed as fanatical?

[Jeshin]

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/magick/magickfaq.html

Excerpt #1 - In short: a magicker does not worship their element, but controls it or allows it to work through him or her.

Excerpt #2 - Because there are no religions on Zalanthas: the sorcerer kings are swift to stamp out any attempt at such.

Essentially the closest thing to a religion that exists, in my opinion, is Tuluki Citizens relationship with Chosen / Faithful / Sun King.

[bcw81]

1) Tek/Muk are "God"-kings. Take that as you will, but know that there are daily devotions in Nak to worship Tektolnes like the god he claims to be.
2) Find out IC.
3) Tuluk believes in Muk-Utep, the Sun King. There is documentation of him somewhere, go find it.
4) Yes. Find out IC.

[Riev]

For the most part, in Tuluk people worship the Sun King because of his power, and because they 'love' him. In Allanak, conversely, people worship Tek because if they don't, Tek will do horrible things to them and their families.

You would never hear someone in Tuluk saying "By Muk's balls", but Tek's Balls is a common slang in Allanak.

As far as religion, as we know it in real life, there isn't one. The ones you worship are actual, physical beings. People have been in the presence of the Sun King before, and felt His Power. If one chooses to worship their respective Sun King, I'm sure the Templarate wouldn't exactly stamp it out, but what better way to worship than to join the respective city militias, or be an Aide to one of their most trusted Servants?

Otherwise, a lot of "What does <x> group believe" is very much a "Find out in game" answer, if only because the path of finding the answer will be more fun than just knowing the answer itself.

[Marauder Moe]

1.)  Does Tektolnes out-rank the elemental spiritual gods?  Is he viewed as having more actual power than they do?

They're not really viewed as the same class of being.  See answer below.

2.)  Are Krath/Vivadu/etc. viewed as outcast gods?  Is there some accepted explanation for magickers concerning them, and why it's "okay" to demonize them or, for Allanak, enslave them?

They're really not quite "gods".  More like quasi-personified forces of nature/reality.

There's no (widely available) mythic narrative that would make them "outcast" in any way, nor is there much concept of heaven or any other over-arcing mystical realm that they may have previously inhabited.

As for how magickers view them... well, it varies and you should find out IC.

3.)  What in the world do Tulukis think of all this?  Do they have their own god-king, or do they think Allanakis are just $%*#@ idiots?

Muk Utep is held in similar regard as Tektolnes, as the city's god-king.  You have to get the Judeo-Christian concept of monotheistic religion out of your head.  Just because you don't worship the other guy's god, doesn't mean that you don't believe he exists or that he has significant power.

4.)  Is there any group (including desert elves) that are viewed as fanatical?

Sure.


EDIT: Holy crap, post #7000.   

[Potaje]

This has been a widely discussed topic with many current threads on it. I would suggest that the OP search the GDB for those.

Here is one:
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,23908.0.html

[Cleis]

Hypothetically, would it be acceptable RP to have a magicker who, through naivety or whatever, grows to worship their elemental "personification" as a fully-fledged deity? Even to have underground cults forming around them? Would this even be sociologically likely, given that there's no proper archetype of a monolithic religion in Zalanthas? I'm probably a long way from having the karma to play a 'gicker, but I lately find myself idly constructing pipe-dream PCs when my brain has some off time.

[number13]

Hypothetically, would it be acceptable RP to have a magicker who, through naivety or whatever, grows to worship their elemental "personification" as a fully-fledged deity?

Sure, as well as the personification of other aspects of the magick system.

Even to have underground cults forming around them?

It's happened before. Find out IC.  Be aware, claiming you worship any entity whatsoever, aside from your friendly neighborhood God-King, isn't going to end well  in either city-state.

[Cleis]

Any underground cultist who goes around saying "omw you guys, you guys, check it out you guys, I am so into Whira right now" deserves everything they get, in my book. I get your point though; it'd have to be very, very underground. Like, two very similar first rules underground.

Sure, as well as the personification of other aspects of the magick system.

Other aspects? Something in the documentation I've missed, or is that another thing to find out?

[Samoa]

Hypothetically, would it be acceptable RP to have a magicker who, through naivety or whatever, grows to worship their elemental "personification" as a fully-fledged deity? Even to have underground cults forming around them? Would this even be sociologically likely, given that there's no proper archetype of a monolithic religion in Zalanthas? I'm probably a long way from having the karma to play a 'gicker, but I lately find myself idly constructing pipe-dream PCs when my brain has some off time.

This has happened before and I'm sure will happen again.

[Samoa]

Sure, as well as the personification of other aspects of the magick system.

Other aspects? Something in the documentation I've missed, or is that another thing to find out?

help magick_sphere
help magick_mood

Most non-magickers and even some magickers would likely have NO idea these things exist.

[NOFUN]

I've always wondered if staff would allow a PC family of cultists

[Feco]

Code Select Expand

Discuss (Communication)

This command enables your character to interact with some npcs as well. To determine whether or not an npc has information to give you, try 'discuss <npc> hi' or 'discuss <npc> topics'.

Syntax:
   discuss <name> <keyword>

   Examples:
   > discuss bartender rumors
   > discuss shopkeeper name
   > discuss guard hi

   Note:
   To talk at a table, use the 'talk' command.

   When the NPC replies, you will be the only person in the room who can
   hear what they say.

   See also:
   look, rumors, talk, tell

Use this, and the common knowledge that there are several types of people who would be able to answer these questions, to answer these questions.  This is a really underused command, IMHO.

You can also learn a lot from just asking a PC elementalist or templar, though there may be repercussions (especially with the latter).

The best thing to remember is Tektolnes, in this case, is the Highlord.  This seems to be a melding of the OOC concepts of "God" and "King" (thus the term God-King), but it isn't one or the other necessarily.  "Highlord" really does appear to be its own concept.  It's been revealed through documentation/etc. that Tektolnes is basically just a Sorcerer.  Anything that he may (or may not) be other than that needs to be discovered IC.  Also remember your PC most likely wouldn't consider Tektolnes a sorcerer.

Same goes for the elements.   Krath may be the sun itself, the drawn symbol for Krath (which is the sun), a place, a person, simply a name for fire, or energy, or any, all, or none of these things.  You aren't explicitly told, so you probably wouldn't "know" anything other than most people call the sun "Krath."

So, it should become pretty clear that the questions you're asking may not really make sense to ask ICly.  Just be happy knowing that it is possible to learn about the "concepts" you're asking about IC -- just try not to let your real world concepts drift into it.

[Synthesis]

Most of these comments pertain to the city-states, only.

Them desert folk be doin' their own kinda hoo-doo.

[Barzalene]

This is an opinion and a guess. I do not speak from specific knowledge and may be wrong!!!

I'm trying to wrap my head around something that seems to be weirdly missing:  religion!  (Yes, it's one of THOSE posts!)

1.)  Does Tektolnes out-rank the elemental spiritual gods?  Is he viewed as having more actual power than they do?

Krath doesn't give a shit and Tek is watching.

[Feco]

Most of these comments pertain to the city-states, only.

Them desert folk be doin' their own kinda hoo-doo.

Truth.  If you play in those groups though, you get docs ta read.

[jstorrie]

One quibble with the original post - Tek may have a steel dragon statue, but he doesn't claim to be THE Dragon. That's a separate character.

[Nyr]

One quibble with the original post - Tek may have a steel dragon statue, but he doesn't claim to be THE Dragon. That's a separate character.

he who saved us, the dragon, tektolnes?

[Ocotillo]

The average Zalanthan probably associates the phrase 'the Dragon' with Tektolnes. There may be more complexity to it.

The Dragon, Tektolnes and otherwise, shouldn't get confused with the Dragon of Tyr from Dark Sun.

[Sokotra]

One quibble with the original post - Tek may have a steel dragon statue, but he doesn't claim to be THE Dragon. That's a separate character.

he who saved us, the dragon, tektolnes?

Yeah, I thought that was fairly common knowledge.  I don't know exactly what all is known or how it all relates, but my guess would be that people know Tek has the power to turn into a dragon.  Then there is THE big bad dragon that makes is occasional appearance in the known world, causing death and destruction, which yes, is a different character.

I believe THE dragon had or has its worshipers... and Tektolnes has his worshipers - his ability to change into dragon form probably has some effect on these things.

[Erisine]

The average Zalanthan probably associates the phrase 'the Dragon' with Tektolnes. There may be more complexity to it.

The Dragon, Tektolnes and otherwise, shouldn't get confused with the Dragon of Tyr from Dark Sun.

And the confusion begins!  Hehe.

Please note that I, and likely many others, have not read Dark Sun.  I really don't intend to myself -- while I like to read, it really doesn't call out to me.  So that in mind, I would have no way to conceive that there are other characters, especially if they are only mentioned in the books (and I assume, Armageddon is not actually canon). 


I too figured that "The Dragon" and Tektolnes were one and the same.  There are WAY too many common game references to suggest otherwise -- for example, his armies/militia are even CALLED "The Arm of the Dragon".  (Right?)  If there is another dragon character that is considered an active part of the game-world universe, why are there not more public lore stories about it, that would distinguish it from Tektolnes?

My question was prompted because of magic's presence in the game.  It's this big, scary, unexplainable thing, with unimaginable potential (especially for your average commoner) and most common characters more or less react to it in a, "Oh.  That." sort of way.  They clearly identify it with a spiritual...embodiment... and give it a name, but it's not even approached as a kind of power.  Are you telling me that nowhere out there in those deserts is some chump going, "wtf?  That Ruk can move boulders!  Why can't I!?!?" 

I personally would LOVE to roleplay a character that was a part of an underground cult, and I could really dig the whole idea of having to learn to use influence and misdirection to gain power, while all the while keeping its "real intentions" secret.  Come on, that just sounds sexy.  What I don't want, though, is having all the work in creating something like that, writing "lore" my character might come up with, etc. etc., just to have it flushed down the toilet by a PLAYER who has decided I'm doing it wrong and that I'm playing a character that is inappropriate for the game theme.  That would suck. 

[Samoa]

And the confusion begins!  Hehe.

I too figured that "The Dragon" and Tektolnes were one and the same.  There are WAY too many common game references to suggest otherwise -- for example, his armies/militia are even CALLED "The Arm of the Dragon".  (Right?)  If there is another dragon character that is considered an active part of the game-world universe, why are there not more public lore stories about it, that would distinguish it from Tektolnes?

"THE" Dragon is a nearly mythological creature. Tektolnes is REAL; people may not SEE him, but they know he's there, and in Allanak they interact with his servants daily.

I wonder if there is a reason that Tektolnes decided to name so many things in such a way that they would be confused with myth.

[number13]

What I don't want, though, is having all the work in creating something like that, writing "lore" my character might come up with, etc. etc., just to have it flushed down the toilet by a PLAYER who has decided I'm doing it wrong and that I'm playing a character that is inappropriate for the game theme.  That would suck.  

I wouldn't worry about that, so long as you aren't interjecting proper nouns from real world mythology and are in-line with the game world. I've heard some ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT (!!!) Zalanthan myths from various tribals in-game. No one would be troubled by that sort of thing on an OOC level.

But on an IC level, please expect resistance.  If a Templar throws you in a spiky pit because you decided to start a cult, he's doing his job, not declaring your character 'inappropriate for the game theme.'

[Sokotra]

Some places where a Dragon is mentioned in the History of Zalanthas... http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/timeline.cgi

-???
The Dragon arrives at Gol Krathu and quickly seizes power. There is little resistance. Some accounts indicate that the lands were given over to the Dragon in a dark pact of betrayal. Servants of the Dragon roam the earth, crushing all opposition.
-???
The Dragon rules the Known World for four hundred years. Most life, poisoned by the Dragon's magick, spread black plagues among the populations. Elves, dwarves, and men scatter to the furthest reaches of the realm to avoid the terrible Dragon, his dread servants, and the killing plagues which accompanied them.
-???
The Dragon, for reasons unknown, departs the Known World. The empire of the Dragon, unable to function, crumbles within five years.

This, above, would be THE dragon folks are talking about.

Then this happens later...

-1395
Exactly one year after the beginning of the siege of Allanak, Tektolnes reappears in the guise of a dragon and breathes death upon the sieging army - the army ceases to exist. Over the course of the next few years, a temple is built near the entrance of the city, in which the newly formed white-robe templarate preach the worship of He Who Rescued Us, the Mighty Dragon Tektolnes.

The first time Tek appears "in the guise of a dragon"... after being mysteriously absent for some period of time.  After this, all the stuff referring to him as a dragon is formed or built in Nak, I believe.

[Erythil]

My question was prompted because of magic's presence in the game.  It's this big, scary, unexplainable thing, with unimaginable potential (especially for your average commoner) and most common characters more or less react to it in a, "Oh.  That." sort of way.  They clearly identify it with a spiritual...embodiment... and give it a name, but it's not even approached as a kind of power.  Are you telling me that nowhere out there in those deserts is some chump going, "wtf?  That Ruk can move boulders!  Why can't I!?!?" 

There are very diverse attitudes to magic, but it's hard to see that from inside Allanak.  Some of the tribes, for instance, consider magic-users to speak with spirits or ancestors, people to be revered.  Tuluk takes it in the other direction, and considers magic an abominable perversion of the natural order of things, and magic-users unclean beings to be despised and killed.  That's just for starters.

There's many subtle gradations beyond that.  You'll discover wide-ranging attitudes if you investigate.  Remember that the theme is centered around cities which intentionally stifle exploration, mystery, and power of which they do not approve.  Things may not always have been so.