World Plots versus Personal Plots

[Semper]

Spawned from a few posts in the State of the game poll and others, I wanted to possibly discuss ways that we as players of Armageddon's current incarnation can be involved in active plots running in the game. There's two topics I hope to focus on specifically.

How can we include off-peak players and those without hours and hours of time (the casual player) into larger, world-spanning plots? In an attempt to answer this, another question that arises is:

In a player-driven emphasis on plots, how could a leader coordinate with others to produce plots that have a clear theme (ex. Copper Wars) and long-term goals (ex. taking certain geographic locations, solving the question of remaining supplied, bringing other organizations into the fray) all the while having smaller sub-plots which ordinary PCs (and casual players) can participate in?

The following are the posts that I reference from:

I'm not sure I even remember what a "plot" is, but that's what happens when you can't play 2-3 hours or more a night. Arm's always been that way, and there aren't really any viable solutions to the casual player problem. I could post a litany of complaints about how I think the hands-off staffing policy has driven even more nails into the coffins of offpeak and casual players, but there's no real point.

I have a feeling that the people who are voting for the negative options are frustrated because in the age where players have to generate everything, it can be difficult to do when your personal situation, IC or OOC, is not conducive to lengthy planning sessions with other PCs.

The one MAJOR difference that I see now that imms don't push plots is if two leaders play different times, there is no great plot they can be involved in unless there is a middle man. With my last leader, I can only assume I played odd hours, because I never saw another leader PC that I was trying to find.

I feel that sure, we have lots of plots and action, but where are the larger, broader plots that impact the Known as a whole? It seems we get a glimpse of the surface of a pool, and suppose that there's activity going on deeper down, when in reality the pool is only a couple feet deep, when there SHOULD be a lake there.

[added: I know there are plots that include many organizations, and impact the Known in a large way. In a player-driven environment, where it's bottom-heavy (no PC High Templars, Black Robes, etc who can drive it), is it possible to tie in these larger plots together, and how?

[Is Friday]

Player-driven plots has given me the freedom to make lonely mudsturbating a staff-supported event.

[Nyr]

So you want to go back to the days of staff authoring plots from start to finish?  Players get to jump in as they will, or not, or just be unaffected by it (as many were even in those days)?

[Semper]

So you want to go back to the days of staff authoring plots from start to finish?  Players get to jump in as they will, or not, or just be unaffected by it (as many were even in those days)?

That wasn't what I was intending to say... I'm genuinely asking how we can have those larger plots in the current player-driven emphasis we have on plots. Nyr, maybe it's how I'm wording my questions (or the topics I'm choosing) but I'm not trying to argue against any of the current staff/game policies. I'm asking how we can work with it, given the limitations such presents, and if there are other possibilities or improvements that can be made to them.

[Nyr]

I don't want to say "check IC."

I will say, however, that recent events in one area in particular are such that (should you hear about them) you will know that it is a player plot, created entirely by the actions of players, with the result being a world-altering change. 

How can we include off-peak players and those without hours and hours of time (the casual player) into larger, world-spanning plots?

I don't see this as any different than any plot, ever.  This may seem like a cop-out, but I don't feel like it is.  If you're off-peak, how do you get involved in any plots?  Extrapolate upwards.  There are threads on this much, I think.

In an attempt to answer this, another question that arises is:

In a player-driven emphasis on plots, how could a leader coordinate with others to produce plots that have a clear theme (ex. Copper Wars) and long-term goals (ex. taking certain geographic locations, solving the question of remaining supplied, bringing other organizations into the fray) all the while having smaller sub-plots which ordinary PCs (and casual players) can participate in?

It looks like this question answers itself.  Make sure your plot that you want to do has a clear theme.  Show clear goals.  Involve other clans by appealing to what those clans DO.

[Erythil]

Dunno if this is the right topic, but, on the subject of getting big exciting world plots going...

To my mind, part of the problem with the change to the 'player-driven' policy in ARM 1, is that ARM 1 is a brutally hierarchical world, where even leadership PCs don't matter much, and by the time you make it to a rank where you can really change things on a global scale (say, red-robed templars for instance) you are forcibly retired so as not to disrupt the equilibrium and balance of the game world.  Zalanthas is based around Muk Utep giving his orders from above, rather than sergeant so-and-so starting actions from below.

It feels almost like there is an entire level of existence above the PCs' heads, currently, that doesn't really get seen very much.  Like there's a whole plane of politics and power that no longer really does anything.  My perception as a relative newcomer is that staff are most likely to say 'you don't have enough authority' when players try to start big plots.

I suspect a bunch of people are going to come out and tell me I'm whining or that I'm 'doing it wrong', but what I'm saying is, specifically, 'player-driven' and 'world-spanning' don't seem to go together in the current setting, which I suppose will change greatly when ARM 2 is released.

[wizturbo]

So you want to go back to the days of staff authoring plots from start to finish?  Players get to jump in as they will, or not, or just be unaffected by it (as many were even in those days)?

I think a hybrid option is best.  Let there be one or two staff written plots going on in the world, and the rest be player driven.  Divert a portion of staff resources to both avenues, and I think we'll get the best of both worlds.

[Erythil]

So you want to go back to the days of staff authoring plots from start to finish?  Players get to jump in as they will, or not, or just be unaffected by it (as many were even in those days)?

I think a hybrid option is best.  Let there be one or two staff written plots going on in the world, and the rest be player driven.  Divert a portion of staff resources to both avenues, and I think we'll get the best of both worlds.

I agree with this.

[Adhira]

Staff are allowed to write plots, and they do.  They are however based on what they see going on in game.  Writing plots these days essentially consists of coming up with a range of scenarios that spring from what they see players doing or moving towards in  game.  It's one good reason to keep staff informed of the lofty goals of your PC, they may not comment on them, they may say, this will be difficult to achieve, but they'l be watching and waiting to put a few things in to move that plot along.  What staff aren't doing is sitting down and saying 'Wouldn't it be cool if zombies came along and took over the rinth, then marched on nak and ate all the Templars'. We aren't going to sit around and make shit up that has no basis in anything, give us something to work with, and we'll go from there.

[Dresan]

What staff aren't doing is sitting down and saying 'Wouldn't it be cool if zombies came along and took over the rinth, then marched on nak and ate all the Templars'.

Not to derail this thread since as usual I've only skimmed the posts here but....god i wish this would happen. It sounds like it would be fun. 

[Bushranger]

What staff aren't doing is sitting down and saying 'Wouldn't it be cool if zombies came along and took over the rinth, then marched on nak and ate all the Templars'.

Not to derail this thread since as usual I've only skimmed the posts here but....god i wish this would happen. It sounds like it would be fun. 

This is something that a player could make happen. I, too, think this would be awesome and might begin working towards it with the next PC I make in the 'rinth!

[Potaje]

I would like to simply say that I have witnessed a plot developed by a staff member around my pc. This was not suggested or created by myself though it had direct bearing on my pc and was a total shocking surprise and delight. Whether completed or not was left up to the culmination of those players involved for which it drew in many.

I suppose I am just trying to illustrate that staff does offer these plots, are we always prepared for them, no.
Does it offer us something to work for, yes. As well, since these plots are not forced upon us, and more or less present, we are at liberty to develop side plots that run along them, grow them in size, fail or succeed.

There is another aspect, as I think about this, that I have seen three of four plots grow from the idea of a pc that then through circumstance did in fact blossom to a larger staff-aided plot, one leading into another that will set about change of the greater environment. Though as I recall there were moments of frustration in trying to accomplish the direction of change and influence from the pcs and all that needed to happen was a variation of strategy, new discovery of idea and implementation. Then it took off with nods and support.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not what we are discussing there is a lack of? To me it seems the mid-ground suggested.

[Barzalene]

Staff are allowed to write plots, and they do.  They are however based on what they see going on in game.  Writing plots these days essentially consists of coming up with a range of scenarios that spring from what they see players doing or moving towards in  game.  It's one good reason to keep staff informed of the lofty goals of your PC, they may not comment on them, they may say, this will be difficult to achieve, but they'l be watching and waiting to put a few things in to move that plot along.  What staff aren't doing is sitting down and saying 'Wouldn't it be cool if zombies came along and took over the rinth, then marched on nak and ate all the Templars'. We aren't going to sit around and make shit up that has no basis in anything, give us something to work with, and we'll go from there.

Yet another reason to add a like button!

[Reiloth]

To comment on only a bit of this -- I don't think it's terribly possible for off-peak players to do much besides involve each other in their own plots. It's very hard to coordinate between peak/off-peak, and i've had more frustration than joy trying to find RPT times that work for myself and peak players. It's lead to storage of several characters i've enjoyed, but yeah. It's a tough thing.

When my schedule is entirely unpredictable or i'm terribly busy IRL, I tend to play loners, don't join clans, and/or isolated Magickers.

It's just too difficult to try and change the world when you're logging on at 2AM PST.

[boog]

I don't think I've ever -been- involved directly in a plot, but I have been brought in by other players and to that I say thank you.

I suppose I've never been superbly interested in being in the thick of things. Sometimes I manage to ease my way in unintentionally, but most times I'm rather content and would rather have a personal plot flourished in some stupid way, like even an environmental emote, by a GM than have something tubularly world changing happen at my feet.

[Synthesis]

...most times I'm rather content and would rather have a personal plot flourished in some stupid way, like even an environmental emote, by a GM than have something tubularly world changing happen at my feet.

Oh man, are you gonna be disappointed when you give birth.

[boog]

...most times I'm rather content and would rather have a personal plot flourished in some stupid way, like even an environmental emote, by a GM than have something tubularly world changing happen at my feet.

Oh man, are you gonna be disappointed when you give birth.

Well, I -- heh. I guess I didn't pick my words very well.

[Cindy42]

I would love for something world-changing to be happening under my feet, and now I think I'm going to go for peak times more often. I wouldn't mind being fodder for a world-changing event, as long as it wasn't completely in vain and someone got RP out of it.

Please don't kill me now.

[Reiloth]

edit.

[number13]

It would nice if there was some (exciting, ready-made) roles you could just step into and go out to do plotty things at any hour -- peak or off-peak.  For example, way back when the mantis were running amok and had captured Luirs, if players could have created mantis PCs (without special app) then naturally there'd be Interesting Stuff To Do.  Hunting something other than static mobs, attempting trade or other agreements with the mantis (and trying not get caught doing so), scouting and reporting back activities to superiors.  Just running the gauntlet between cities would be more exciting, and give merchants a reason to hire guards.

Imagine if two noble Houses were having a lukewarm war, for example, with open fighting out in the desert over some captureable points. With some advertising that it's a supported plot --  a scoreboard showing some scant details and active calls for roles to fill out the partisan ranks -- then it could prompt interest, more active participation, and most importantly personal plots spawning off of the main plot.  Which House does a particular Byn Sarge support, via taking offered longterm contracts? How does that effect his ability to get business from the allies of the enemy House, or his relations Sergeant Amos, who has a longterm contract to support the enemy House? Which side will each of the merchant Houses take, or each of the PC templars? It's up the PCs to decide.

But the whole thing would peter out if PC noble A or PC noble B decides to store (or ends up dead), so a plot like that would need a staff member (or two) prodding the basic conflict along, while allowing players to generate the outcomes and particular details.  The end-game, rather than being solved by Tek stomping all involved, should be determined by a (somewhat) transparent scoring mechanism.

[Cindy42]

a lukewarm war sounds fantastic.

get Kurac as one of those houses, that ought to be interesting. I can't see Kadius gettings its frilly, obscenely proper hands dirty.

get a rare tribe involved. like the halflings or the mantis, whom i'm assuming aren't seen by much of the PC population, and might as well live on a moon.

[Qzzrbl]

I can't see Kadius gettings its frilly, obscenely proper hands dirty.

You'd be amazingly surprised.

[Cutthroat]

No clan is above doing something "dirty", despite its appearances. When you understand this, you understand Armageddon.

That said, it's my opinion that conflicts need to be entirely player-based. Number13's idea sounds okay, but it's precisely the kind of thing that is possible with barely any staff assistance at all. I would say that two or more groups could fight over a point as soon as something valuable appears at that point. It's basically up to staff to decide what the shifting sands reveal. After that, they can sit back and watch what happens as Kurac and Fale fight over a huge thodeliv deposit halfway to Red Storm, or as tribes fight over a food-filled cave, etc.

If a good conflict gets going that all participants are interested in, you don't have to worry about storage as much. If people die, well, I guess they lost the fight.

[number13]

...but it's precisely the kind of thing that is possible with barely any staff assistance at all.

Sure is, that's what's great about it. PCs can run around conflicting with each other without staff having to be there to invent plot points.  But I submit it would be better if the ongoing drive came from a set of essentially immortal NPCs, supported by a call for roles, and advertised outside of game.  Right now, there could be an awesome conflict ongoing that I'd want to build a character for, but I have no way of knowing this, so I run off to play *whatever* instead.

Also, a scoring mechanism to determine who is 'winning' would help off-peak players to participate and give a clear direction to everyone else.  Let's say the premise of the war is Fale is trying to take a piece of Kuraci's spice monopoly -- specifically the Allanaki market. If smuggling in raw, rare spice to sell to a Fale NPC gives a point towards victory: it gives off-peak spice-sifters, militia, Fale nobles, and Kuraci opposition something to do without ongoing staff supervision.  Add some tough Fale partisan and Kuraci worker NPC camps that can be raided, with a memory of who did the raiding so that the proper parties can be punished/rewarded.

[Marshmellow]

The one thing that can be said for world-affecting plots, or staff driving some plots is that staff-driven plots by some NPC have more continuity.  PCs die all the time, and all sorts of things they were doing that aren't world-affecting suddenly just cease.  Sometimes that is too bad.

That being said, I generally get involved in those smaller plots that were developed by PCs without staff intervention/assistance more than I ever got involved in the staff-driven things.