Sparring NPC's!

[musashi]

Oddly enough, I call my son (who is actually named musashi) mushmush 

[Rhyden]

I don't think can be solved by turning dummies into sparring vending machines.

Thanks Mushmush, I'd have blew a ventricle trying to form a proper response.

It's not really that confusing.

You want sparring dummies to provide more experience to combat guilds, but I don't.

I think there's enough clans with enough pcs to spar one another, whether they be offpeak or not. I think sparring dummies work well as an RP device or like I said, the third member of a 2 pc drill that usually requires 3 pcs.

Otherwise, I think 2 pcs are all you should ever need to train in combat.

[musashi]

Actually, I believe we just want to be able to IC'ly improve our combat guild PC's skills without having to resort to OOC tactics thinly masked as IC ones in order to do so.

I think, that a Bynner/Fist/Legionarrie/AoD militia man who happens to play at a time of day, or even just a time in that clan's life cycle, when other clan-members are not often around, should not have to resort to hunting animals in the wastes or bashing mobs in the 'Rinth/UnderTuluk to codedly improve their combat skills. They should be able to codedly do that as part of their soldierly training regime, independant of whether or not they have clan mates around to facilitate them.

Just like a ranger can improve their hunting abilities independant of other PC's being around.
Just like a crafter can improve their crafting abilities independant of other PC's being around.
Just like a magicker can improve their magick abilities independant of other PC's being around.
Just like a burgular can improve their theiving abilities indepdanant of other PC's being around.

If other PC's -are- around, awesome! More RP and interaction to be had then!

[RogueGunslinger]

I think there's enough clans with enough pcs to spar one another, whether they be offpeak or not.

This is where we disagree.

You say "Enough clans" with enough pc's.  It should be all the clans with enough pc's. But it's not that. It's not even enough or even half. And arguing against that would be pretty silly. I -know- there isn't enough offpeak players in my current clan. How do I know? My pc is getting close to 3 days played, Ive sparred twice and and maybe had about 5-6 page-scroll length interactions with anyone on this pc. I haven't advanced anything codedly. Which with the schedule that most clans keep, It should be impossible for my PC not to show some sort of gain.

[ibusoe]

So, A hunter can go out and practice his skill on all the coded wildlife out there, but if you're clanned, and limited to the city, and often play off-peak where no one is around to train your soldiers skills up, You're pretty much left dead in the silt when it comes to skill progression.

I propose sparring dummies have the ability for limited skill gain using combat code, or archery. As it is you can never fail to hit a dummy, therefore never get any better. I don't really know how to implement this, but I'm sure a workaround could be made.

I know everyone thinks this would end in everyone twinking their offense and defense skills, but I think over-training should be considered abuse just like over-hunting, and subject to the same punishments.

I rather like this idea.  I think that twinking is not the threat that people suppose it to be.  We should allow this.

[Clearsighted]

There are other benefits to joining a clan than raising combat skills. The main benefit of joining the militia seems to be permission to act like a dick at all times anyways, not combat training.

If someone was an offpeak player, and this mattered a great deal to them, I would suggest they join a clan where you're not forbidden to leave the compound most of the time.

I love the Byn, but I am an offpeak player, so I've discovered it's best I don't play in it. Because the true fun of the Byn is when you can hang out with the same half dozen people in primetime every night. Not when it's just you cleaning the shithouse at 2 AM.

In any case, if you do join a clan, and there is at least one good combatant in it, which has his act together, (and there tends to be at least /1/ in most clans) you will advance plenty fast.

It gets to a point where you have to go pretty ridiculous lengths to keep getting marginally better on say, a verrin hawk or raptor. And it doesn't take long at all before most wildlife is less challenge than a training dummy.

However, veteran warriors and rangers tend to have built up their defense enough (as in 'help defense'), to where they are vastly better opponents than any wildlife. I've had a ranger leader PC whose defense was so high, that anyone in the clan could have maxed their weapon skill on him, if they survived long enough to keep showing up to morning training. Including warriors.

So I think things should be left as is.

[RogueGunslinger]

So, your proposed solution for players who are off-peak in clans and have this issue, is to simply not join a clan? That really helps.

[Twilight]

I can think of six skills, beyond weapon skills, that can be potentially worked on with a sparring dummy.  That seems like a lot.  Hoping for offense/defense or the defensive skills is a bit much IMHO.

[RogueGunslinger]

So there's six skills that you can use on a dummy? Alright, wow, cool. Has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.

The problem here is that off-peakers don't have a way to up their offense/defense. Not that they don't have enough ways to train skills on dummies... Did you read the thread?

[Clearsighted]

So, your proposed solution for players who are off-peak in clans and have this issue, is to simply not join a clan? That really helps.

Nope.

My advice is to not join a clan that restricts you to a compound or that won't let you leave the city without supervision.

I am an offpeak player. I had to adapt as well.

It's also why I don't take on any leadership roles.

[RogueGunslinger]

I get you've adapted, I have too. What about the other players who can't or don't want to? I'm trying to adapt the code so we don't have to. Is that skivvy enough for you? Your only argument against the idea is "play around the problem" Which isn't an argument at all.

[Clearsighted]

I get you've adapted, I have too. What about the other players who can't or don't want to? I'm trying to adapt the code so we don't have to. Is that skivvy enough for you? Your only argument against the idea is "play around the problem" Which isn't an argument at all.

Well. You have me there.

Though, I think newbies hardly need to worry about their defense and offense. Their biggest danger is getting bored from joining a small clan with noone online when they are, and then quitting.

It seems to me the only people who'd really worry about it, are veteran players, who could in fact, work around it. Say by spending a few days playtime as an independent.

As for those that ' won't ', well. Bugger them, I guess. Smarmy militia bastards.

[RogueGunslinger]

Guess it doesn't really matter. I'm sure the staff have taken from this thread what they will.

[musashi]

Guess it doesn't really matter. I'm sure the staff have taken from this thread what they will.

More or less, yeah. I certainly hope so since the only lasting disagreements anyone has been able muster agaist the idea have been: I don't play off-peak, and what isn't a problem for me isn't a problem for the game; or just kind of twink a little bit and get around it ... don't wory about staying true to the role you're playing so much, or the ever popular just don't play in clans if you don't play during peak play hours  

[Synthesis]

Wow.

I just made a character on SoI for shits and giggles, and it turns out they have a sparring NPC for the clan I started in.

Archery range, too.

I'm lookin' at you, Imms.

[Twilight]

So there's six skills that you can use on a dummy? Alright, wow, cool. Has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.

The problem here is that off-peakers don't have a way to up their offense/defense. Not that they don't have enough ways to train skills on dummies... Did you read the thread?

Some people came to the thread with the idea that dummies are just "noise generators".  Not so.  Just because I was not addressing -your- point does not mean I didn't read the thread, or was not addressing other points in the thread.

Sparring dummies and NPCs would be, as far as I can tell given how the ideas are presented here, riskless.  I object to learning skills like offense/defense in a riskless environment.  With dummies, it makes absolutely no sense at all.  The skills that you can learn do make some sense, as they are more focused on yourself, rather than your interaction with another, reacting being.

And your problem seems to be precisely "they don't have enough ways to train skills on dummies".  You are just limiting yourself to being interested in two very specific skills.  I say learn the skills you can learn on dummies and find a way to learn the others in other ways.

[Clearsighted]

For every semi-interesting thing SoI might have that Arm doesn't, they have about twenty which I don't care much for. For example, skill progression is limited by your random attributes. It'd be like someone with good strength never being able to raise their blunt weapons to more than 50% (as a random example). They also have like half the active players at best, but somehow, are always in the top 10 on TMS...

[RogueGunslinger]

I say learn the skills you can learn on dummies and find a way to learn the others in other ways.

I've already found another way. By coding in NPC's that are pretty centrally for sparring in certain clans. Do you understand the argument? Saying "find another way to train your skills" is simply circumventing the problem, and not addressing it. Other people have suggested making NPC sparring partners, and the topic certainly accelerated in that direction, until you went strait back to addressing the issue with Sparring dummies and god doesn't even knows why I'm typing anymore...

[musashi]

Just because I was not addressing -your- point does not mean I didn't read the thread, or was not addressing other points in the thread.

I can think of six skills, beyond weapon skills, that can be potentially worked on with a sparring dummy.  That seems like a lot.  Hoping for offense/defense or the defensive skills is a bit much IMHO.

You were addressing his point, remember? Now it seems like you're just trying to "move the target". That's annoying.

Sparring dummies and NPCs would be, as far as I can tell given how the ideas are presented here, riskless.  I object to learning skills like offense/defense in a riskless environment.

Would you care to explain how you feel an NPC who spars you with training weapons with mercy toggled on and a script to disengage you if said NPC reaches below a certain threshold of HP (while relying on YOU to disengage your own character if you're the one losing the match) ... would be any different at all risk-wise than what happens when you spar another PC in your clan? Where does this "riskless environment" that you object exist? It seems to me like you're either saying you object to people sparring in the relative safety of a clan compound all together ... or you just don't have a point.

With dummies, it makes absolutely no sense at all.  The skills that you can learn do make some sense, as they are more focused on yourself, rather than your interaction with another, reacting being.

No one is talking about making dummies fight back. We are talking about adding a drill sergeant-ish NPC or weaponsmaster NPC to fight back, so again ... what are you talking about?

And your problem seems to be precisely "they don't have enough ways to train skills on dummies".  You are just limiting yourself to being interested in two very specific skills.  I say learn the skills you can learn on dummies and find a way to learn the others in other ways.

Again again, we are not talking about the sparring dummies ... you are missing the point entirely. Sorry.

So ... seems to me like we are right back at:

the only lasting disagreements anyone has been able muster against the idea have been: I don't play off-peak, and what isn't a problem for me isn't a problem for the game; or just kind of twink a little bit and get around it ... don't wory about staying true to the role you're playing so much, or the ever popular just don't play in clans if you don't play during peak play hours

[Twilight]

The entire thread had started since I had last checked the GDB.  I reserve the right to comment on any particular point in the thread, rather than just where it has evolved to (especially when it did so based on what seem to be some misconceptions around dummies).  So take it as a comment on the entire thread and aspects of it to the time I posted.

As far as riskless, are you assuming the other person might not mean to kill you?  That they might not get a little lag in their commands, or mess up with them, and inadvertently kill you?  That they might forget to turn mercy off, or play in a style where they don't bother to use it at all?  That they might turn out to be so damn good the first time you spar they inadvertently kill you, especially when combined with some of the previous factors?  Those are always risks faced now in sparring.  You are comparing something fraught with uncertainty (PC sparring) to something with potentially zero uncertainy as to what will happen if you understand the system on which it works.  If you can transpose that same sort of uncertainty risk to the NPC, then you would be addressing my concerns around the seeming riskless aspect of an NPC.

My point, which you seem to be ignoring, is that we don't need NPCs.  We have sparring dummies, which can be used to train a certain number of skills.  If these skills don't match to what you were hoping for, that is too bad.  We are lucky what we currently have can be used to train skills at all, because with the exception of a couple of those skills, I don't believe it was actually intended that we could.

The issue, as I see it, isn't over dummies or NPCs.  These are potential solutions to the issue.  It is about being able to realistically advance skills while alone, while (potentially) playing in a situation that is not allowing interaction with other PCs in order to do so.  You have tried to narrow the argument to -specific- skills.  You can advance several skills with what is currently there.  That this is not the skills you want, I can appreciate, but based on previous staff posts on the topic, this seems to me intentional.

[Qzzrbl]

The entire thread had started since I had last checked the GDB.  I reserve the right to comment on any particular point in the thread, rather than just where it has evolved to (especially when it did so based on what seem to be some misconceptions around dummies).  So take it as a comment on the entire thread and aspects of it to the time I posted.

As far as riskless, are you assuming the other person might not mean to kill you?  That they might not get a little lag in their commands, or mess up with them, and inadvertently kill you?  That they might forget to turn mercy off, or play in a style where they don't bother to use it at all?  That they might turn out to be so damn good the first time you spar they inadvertently kill you, especially when combined with some of the previous factors?  Those are always risks faced now in sparring.  You are comparing something fraught with uncertainty (PC sparring) to something with potentially zero uncertainy as to what will happen if you understand the system on which it works.  If you can transpose that same sort of uncertainty risk to the NPC, then you would be addressing my concerns around the seeming riskless aspect of an NPC.

My point, which you seem to be ignoring, is that we don't need NPCs.  We have sparring dummies, which can be used to train a certain number of skills.  If these skills don't match to what you were hoping for, that is too bad.  We are lucky what we currently have can be used to train skills at all, because with the exception of a couple of those skills, I don't believe it was actually intended that we could.

As far as the low risk of using NPCs, I agree with Twilight.

[RogueGunslinger]

As far as riskless, are you assuming the other person might not mean to kill you?  That they might not get a little lag in their commands, or mess up with them, and inadvertently kill you?  That they might forget to turn mercy off, or play in a style where they don't bother to use it at all?  That they might turn out to be so damn good the first time you spar they inadvertently kill you, especially when combined with some of the previous factors?  Those are always risks faced now in sparring.  You are comparing something fraught with uncertainty (PC sparring) to something with potentially zero uncertainy as to what will happen if you understand the system on which it works.  If you can transpose that same sort of uncertainty risk to the NPC, then you would be addressing my concerns around the seeming riskless aspect of an NPC.

That bolded portion, all those things you listed, Those are all game flaws, glitches, and code-issues. You're telling me that you like them? You're glad they kill your characters, and annoy people, including newbies to the point of leaving the game? What the fuck? It's clear now we just differ in tastes.

My point, which you seem to be ignoring, is that we don't need NPCs.  We have sparring dummies, which can be used to train a certain number of skills.  If these skills don't match to what you were hoping for, that is too bad.  We are lucky what we currently have can be used to train skills at all, because with the exception of a couple of those skills, I don't believe it was actually intended that we could.

I've not ignored the point. Simply acknowledged that you're the only person who holds this belief. That doesn't make it invalid. It just reeks of "If I don't think it's and issue it's not an issue and it doesn't need fixed."

[Qzzrbl]

Well, the thing is, you can't exactly have much interaction with an NPC.... You can't goad an NPC into a fight, you can't piss off an NPC to the point to where it wants to kill you, the NPC will do the exact same thing, every single time, no matter what.

[Zoltan]

As far as riskless, are you assuming the other person might not mean to kill you?  That they might not get a little lag in their commands, or mess up with them, and inadvertently kill you?  That they might forget to turn mercy off, or play in a style where they don't bother to use it at all?  That they might turn out to be so damn good the first time you spar they inadvertently kill you, especially when combined with some of the previous factors?  Those are always risks faced now in sparring.  You are comparing something fraught with uncertainty (PC sparring) to something with potentially zero uncertainy as to what will happen if you understand the system on which it works.  If you can transpose that same sort of uncertainty risk to the NPC, then you would be addressing my concerns around the seeming riskless aspect of an NPC.

That bolded portion, all those things you listed, Those are all game flaws, glitches, and code-issues. You're telling me that you like them? You're glad they kill your characters, and annoy people, including newbies to the point of leaving the game? What the fuck? It's clear now we just differ in tastes.

No, you are wrong on the larger point. The point is, that there's risk when sparring with a PC. It is not all due to game flaws, glitches and code-issues. It is due to the chance that your opponent actually has the intent to kill you. Which is exactly the reason that whenever I remind people of "mercy on" (usually when playing with new players) I state "mercy on unless you want to kill someone," and I mean it. A training NPC would have mercy on and other scripts to keep it safe. I still like the idea of a training NPC, but it's true that it's almost zero-risk to use it, especially when compared to sparring with a PC that may have fuckery in mind.


Edited to add: Sorry, I basically just repeated what Qzzrbl said with a lot more text. Also, I can't help but notice how hostile some posters are getting, and I don't mean just in this thread. It's highly irritating. It's possible to have a discussion without the venom.

[RogueGunslinger]

Straw man.