Sparring NPC's!

[Eyeball]

This business about a NPC trainer eliminating risk sounds like a really weak argument to me.

There are a lot of skills that can be exercised without risk, to start with. A lot.

The rate of PC death by sparring must be something below 0.01%, too.

The NPC would only be useful up to a point. PCs couldn't turn into gods by sparring it, they'd just be able to acquire some minimal ability.

But fine, make it so that if the PC goes link dead and becomes injured, the NPC doesn't stop before killing the PC.  Would that make you people happy?  Because it seems that's exactly the sort of scenario that would based on what you've said, bizarre as that may be.

[Yam]

Oxen.

[musashi]

Synthesis's A and B are what I object to.  I actually -liked- it before the change to disengage.  There was a strategy and skill to sparring, especially when there was a disparity in PC skill levels.  Wait states ended up in PC deaths.  Yes, I liked that.

These days seem like sparring lite to me.  Yes, I think people should die sparring, in heavily populated compounds, with medics on duty.  There are lots of risky things not supported by the code, like a glancing blow to the head or infected wounds killing you days later.  I view it as risk transferance to those code aspects that still have the outside chance of getting you killed in a sparring ring.

I feel decently safe in saying then, that you are the only person who feels that way. Not just in the game, but in reality in general. I served in the military for example. We trained with explosives, firearms, knives, polearms (bayonettes really but yeah), and all other manner of quite deadly activities if done in a real environment instead of a training one. Guess how folks I knew who died training in 4 years? None. Guess how many folks died in training Marine Corps WIDE in four years ... less than 50. 100,000 people plus ... over the course of 1,000 days plus ... less than 50 accidental training deaths world-wide. Safety works.

And that isn't just a modern miricle. If you go look at historical texts you will find that when the romans did training, they didn't lose many people to training excercises either.

You are perfectly entitled to your personal preferences, and if accidently dieing due to the code not being fleshed out enough to really represent reasonable expectations of reality just did it for you in a big way ... more power to you. But your personal preferences have no argumentative weight, and they are not congruent with reality or reasonable expectation ... both in the game and out of it.

I don't know what else to tell you.

More to Rhyden now:

I don't think anyone wants these NPC's to be able to max out the offense/defence/combat skills of anyone who spars them enough. I think all of us would rather just something to get low level folks up to the mid-level expected of someone who trains regularly in a militia clan. Here, let me quote myself from an earlier post in this thread to show you that you and I are in agreement on this issue.

I don't really see why your suggestions would be needed 7DV. I mean, as I understand it skills only increase once and then set a delay timer based on wisdom before they will go up again; and if the sparring NPC were to keep the same hours as the training dummy ... I believe that even sparring non-stop from the moment it came out to the moment it went in would only result in the same skill increase as doing it once anyway, right? So if the person wants to try and go for a few rounds instead of just one ... meh, let them.

And I would prefer he did not adjust his skill to yours for two reasons: One ... that might be hard to code for staff and thus make them less likely to implement the idea all together ... and two ... I would rather folks hoping to get their combat skills up from compentant to legendary go through the risks of fighting actually dangerous things, rather tha just becomming epic in the sparring ring.

[Yam]

Oxen.

[IntuitiveApathy]

The rate of PC death by sparring must be something below 0.01%, too.

Or this 0.01% chance could actually be coded into the script to spawn a freak NPC to facilitate a freak sparring accident to satisfy the no-risk crowd.

> ask trainer train

(fanfare!)
Congratulations Amos, you've just won the Armageddon Sparring Lottery!

*beep*

Welcome to Armageddon!

-mantishead-

[Eyeball]

To the "this might be hard for staff to code" sorts, a quote from Xygax:

Don't worry so much about how hard something is for us to code, or about the implementation details of the thing.  If you want a feature, propose it.  And ask for what you really want, not what you think the reasonable fallback is.  Then, don't debate over the merits of various implementation details...  without knowing the code well, it's a meaningless debate.  Overall, I think this will improve the level of our discourse, because sometimes we don't know precisely what user-facing features are most interesting to you guys, but we do know pretty well how hard certain things are to implement.

When you're proposing a feature or improvement, think of it only in terms of how you'd like it to work from your perspective as a player

[musashi]

So, here ... let me try to wrap up everything together into something looking like a final product of a suggestion for the staff to consider. Based on this final product, I'd appreciate it if folks would chime in on tweaks they think would be needed to ensure nothing is getting way out of balance or whack.

The final idea (going by the posts myself and other folks have made in the thread so far) is:

A generic "other recruit of your clan" type NPC, who spawns in your compound on the same schedule as the sparring dummies do currently. By generic I mean he isn't a named NPC with a history and set skills, he's like the "a human soldier of tektolnes", a faceless one of many type people.

This generic recruit would be wielding sparring weapons, and be ready to spar your PC provided no other PC's in your clan were logged in to participate in the training excercises for that morning.

His skills would vary just like all the other generic NPC's skills do, but generally be somewhere in the middle ground, not total newbie levels, not 100+ warrior levels, say ... a 15 or 20 day warrior range. Staff, being able to actually see the skill levels, would be in a better position to set this than we players are.

His scripting would simply be, to disengage and maybe say something like, "Gah you win, you win! Stop!" when you drop him to a certain percentage of his health; and also to disengage you automatically if you type disengage first.

He would have mercy off (as a peace offering to the folks who love dieing due to code bugs), so if you got disconnected, or lagged, or whatever else in the middle of sparring him you would run the risk of being killed "accidentally" by him, to keep sparring "dangerous". --- As a side note I think this is fucking retarded, but some folks seem to feel like this is important.

And that's it.

This way when no other PC's are around, your PC can still follow the training schedule set out by your clan and actually get some combat training out of it, without needing to bother staff with logs and requests.

As a small bonus idea: What if the sparring recruit NPC could be scripted to, on your command, guard or attack (and subsequently disengage) the sparring dummy in the compound to also do rescue/guard drills with you on the days that your clan has designated as guard/rescue drill days?

Thoughts? Suggestions? Critics that are based on something more than irrational gut impulses?

[hyzhenhok]

Just don't be specific on the skill level. "Able to spar new characters without sending them to go sleep in 3 hits" is what's desirable.

[musashi]

Right, well like I said ... staff would be best able to pick the skills levels to make sure he is capable of sparring newbie folks up to snuff, but not able to create monsters and bringers of doom out of everyone who spars with him.

EDIT: I mean ... I agree with you, I just thought I had already worded it in such a way as to avoid specific skill levels.

[brytta.leofa]

The reason why npc training may be frowned upon, in my books, is because it lessens the pc-pc interaction. If you had dummies available for offpeak, they would be available to onpeak as well. I simply believe this would lessen the amount of interaction between players.

Most combat PCs are required to train at certain times, regardless of whether other PCs are around.  Offpeak Amos is not perambulating around the city in search of interaction; he's idling in the sparring ring with a nice ldesc.

(Bless you, people who love to solo-emote; I admire you, but I am not one of you.)

[Gagula]

Here, here!

[AmandaGreathouse]

Most combat PCs are required to train at certain times, regardless of whether other PCs are around.  Offpeak Amos is not perambulating around the city in search of interaction; he's idling in the sparring ring with a nice ldesc.

(Bless you, people who love to solo-emote; I admire you, but I am not one of you.)

And 'that' is why I fale combat roles.

I 'am' wandering around looking for interaction most of the time in situations like that.

Also... I really like the idea. In my experience, it's all too rare for off-peakers to get a fair shake at solid training because they so rarely find a partner outside the sparring dummy.

[Jdr]

Some roles due to their nature are very hindered in who or what they can train with, such as Nobles only being able to spar other nobles or (now non-existent) slaves. A sparring partner, NPC, would be great for these roles to cut away the boredom of isolation and also to actually train those skills.

[Gimfalisette]

Some roles due to their nature are very hindered in who or what they can train with, such as Nobles only being able to spar other nobles or (now non-existent) slaves. A sparring partner, NPC, would be great for these roles to cut away the boredom of isolation and also to actually train those skills.

For nobles in general as they currently exist in ARM, this should be a "no." The lack of l33t skillz training is one of the penalties you pay for taking up that sort of role; it's part of the design to keep leaders focused on leaderly things. The game suffers when nobles take too much of an interest in their own coded skill development, or their own mudsex, or their own <insert activity here>, all of which keeps them away from the plotting, scheming, and manipulating they should be doing. The same is really true for leaders at all levels, but if a player does want to play a skilled-in-combat leader, then there are other options for doing that.

[Jdr]

I'd say if a player was being too interested in personal growth, the staff would mention it to players. I'm fairly sure most of us are mature enough to moderate our own activities and decisions.

[Zoltan]

Some roles due to their nature are very hindered in who or what they can train with, such as Nobles only being able to spar other nobles or (now non-existent) slaves. A sparring partner, NPC, would be great for these roles to cut away the boredom of isolation and also to actually train those skills.

For nobles in general as they currently exist in ARM, this should be a "no." The lack of l33t skillz training is one of the penalties you pay for taking up that sort of role; it's part of the design to keep leaders focused on leaderly things. The game suffers when nobles take too much of an interest in their own coded skill development, or their own mudsex, or their own <insert activity here>, all of which keeps them away from the plotting, scheming, and manipulating they should be doing. The same is really true for leaders at all levels, but if a player does want to play a skilled-in-combat leader, then there are other options for doing that.

I disagree with this sentiment. I believe that the only responsibility a sponsored leader has is to play their character (and send in report emails to the imms).

[Gimfalisette]

I disagree with this sentiment. I believe that the only responsibility a sponsored leader has is to play their character (and send in report emails to the imms).

From the docs:

OOCly, the noble role is intended to enhance the game, and players who accept such a role should agree that they will play in a way that contributes to the game. That includes initiating events, providing employment for other PCs, cooperating with staff requests, etc. While it is acceptable to make another PC's life difficult for IC reasons, the focus of a noble's existence should not be harassing commoners, trying to enslave people who don't bow, or using NPCs to pkill.

[Ghost]

I can think of six skills, beyond weapon skills, that can be potentially worked on with a sparring dummy. 

I am guessing you are referring to combat skills like "bash, kick...etc".  If that is the case, they too were against the rules for using on dummy (I was told this way about a few years ago, and I don't know if that rule is still there)

[Gimfalisette]

IIRC, you can't codedly fail a bash on a dummy, and there are other...effects as well.

Maybe Twilight meant bandage.

[Twilight]

My list did not include things like kick, bash, backstab.

Bandage, yes.  Flee, yes.  And a few other things. Not all applicable to all dummies.

[Qzzrbl]

Alright..... So now you've got your off-peak character that is -so- off-peak it needs an NPC to spar with when he's on.... He's to the point to where he could -eat- the sparring NPC if he wanted to.

...What now?

What's the point?

So now you've got a moderately skilled PC in a clan who's entire population logs in on-peak.

What do you do with him now? Your PC sarge is never on when you're on, so you can't go off on any missions or whatever....

And seriously, this isn't a strawman-- I'm legitimately curious, because I'm not entirely sure what -I'd- do in the above scenario.

[RogueGunslinger]

Alright..... So now you've got your off-peak character that is -so- off-peak it needs an NPC to spar with when he's on.... He's to the point to where he could -eat- the sparring NPC if he wanted to.

This affects more than those who are "so off peak". Peak is a four hour period in a twenty four hour day. Some people can bend their schedule for special events or to prolong good play, but their daily, leisure time is spent when there, for the most part, isn't anyone else around.

[Rhyden]

The reason why npc training may be frowned upon, in my books, is because it lessens the pc-pc interaction. If you had dummies available for offpeak, they would be available to onpeak as well. I simply believe this would lessen the amount of interaction between players.

Most combat PCs are required to train at certain times, regardless of whether other PCs are around.  Offpeak Amos is not perambulating around the city in search of interaction; he's idling in the sparring ring with a nice ldesc.

Yeah, check out my last post.

If your ideal dummy idea above was implemented, I would be all for it. And I don't think it would lessen player interaction much.

Yeah, Synth's idea would be nice, but I don't think there's enough offpeak players with this specific problem for staff to make it a reality. Again, I could be wrong. There could be 10 offpeak players in 10 different clans sitting around solo rping who would have a more beneficial and fun time with this ideal sparring dummy.

[Synthesis]

Alright..... So now you've got your off-peak character that is -so- off-peak it needs an NPC to spar with when he's on.... He's to the point to where he could -eat- the sparring NPC if he wanted to.

...What now?

What's the point?

So now you've got a moderately skilled PC in a clan who's entire population logs in on-peak.

What do you do with him now? Your PC sarge is never on when you're on, so you can't go off on any missions or whatever....

And seriously, this isn't a strawman-- I'm legitimately curious, because I'm not entirely sure what -I'd- do in the above scenario.

So now, when you make time in your schedule to log in for the RPT or HRPT, you won't get one-shot-killed by a tarantula 5 minutes after leaving the gates.  Hell, you might actually be useful.  GOD FORBID.

[Gunnerblaster]

There has been days when 60+ players were currently logged into the world and NOT A SINGLE ONE logged into the clan or visiting redstorm/luirs/cenyr.

What say you then?