Seeya!

[Lizzie]

Heh, if I had a nickle for everytime Nyr and I misconstrued one another's meaning via email ...

If you think that's bad...

I've had 6 staff rotations with the clan I'm in now. I've had 2 characters, whose PC-lifespans combined, are 3 times as long as the duration of any given staff member to run that particular clan.

EVERY time there's a new staff member, I butt heads with them. Every damned fucking time. And every time, I get over it. In my case, it's the staffer who's the noob, and I'm the frustrated veteran asking "Dear Imm: What the fuck were you thinking?"

And then they answer, and I get over it, and everything goes back to being fun again. I don't always like the results of the back and forth. But such is the nature of staff rotations. I don't like having staff rotations. On the other hand, I would hate to be stuck in a clan who had a really piss-poor IMM, and no hope that they'd rotate out and I'd get a good one after that. Or be in a clan who has such an awesome IMM, that the IMM ends up quitting because of the flame-wars on the GDB about how my clan gets favors and theirs doesn't.

So I can understand the need for clan rotations. I don't like them. But I live with it. Plus it reminds me that I need to be more patient with the Noob-Imms who have never had to deal with my admittedly weird weekly updates

[FantasyWriter]

Why the glass ceiling?

There's the metaphor I was looking for.

[MarshallDFX]

This thread is venomous and bad for Armageddon (by in large).
Edit to clarify:  It's just kind of a big downer, and any newbies reading this thread (myself included) are liable to be discouraged.  Why -bother- with Arm.. it's glory days are done.    *sigh*

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't think so, really. I do think that the players who feel so hateful about the process are out of hand, but there are good points in this thread. I think that it's just another discussion where some player lament and others console, and it's just what it'll always be. Somebody is always upset at the establishment.

[FantasyWriter]

Without going into any more detail than necessary, I've seen lately that those character who have the power and should be able to do what they want to ICly can.
My particular staff group could be the exception, but I haven't been shot down on any of the plots I've aimed for.

They've been pretty much "Sure, let us know what you need from us when the time comes," and pretty much left the rest up to me.  In my opinion, it couldn't get any better than that.  The only thing I see different between now and what the "old folks" are talking about is that you're expected to do more work on your own behalf rather than have power just handed to you (like the maxed warrior/ranger gith chieftain example).

[Krath]

I think that it's just another discussion where some player lament and others console, and it's just what it'll always be.

Nessalin told me Arm2.0 is coming out for Xbox 360 before PC...Im just sayin'....

Anyways, The Glass Ceiling does exists. If you try to get through it, you end up dead or stored.
Imms -are- fair regardless of what many of you may think. Although I may not, and you may not
agree with every decision they make, you have to trust that they are making the best IC or NON-IC
decision for the game.

As Far as the Arm BA goes. It is true. I agree the game is too small for two cities, however, if you want
a war, I am 100% positive you could start one. The problem however, is that the IMMs, to "better balance"
the game have made it so some things are not-inexcuseable as they used to be. Is this bad? No, because
the things they do are direct results of IC reasons. Just because you can raid 100 pcs and get away
does not mean Tektolnes, Muk, a Red Robe, a Fluffy white robed tree hugging lirathan, or the Bad-ass
Bruce-lee Jihaens NPCS, and VNPCS will not take notice.

In short. It is more realistic. Has it taken away from the general playability and what some people
consider fun? That depends on what side of the fence you are on.

Anyhow, Much love to you all.

Except Mansa.

[jcljules]

Honestly I think there's only two real problems with the staff right now. Neither of them are particularly serious, malicious, or really things that can be fixed A lack of time and an abundance of caution. We all know that staff are volunteers, have other clans and also have mortal accounts and real lives. So they can't focus as much attention on the game as some high-playtime players would like. I've had a great experience with my current clan and I've never butted heads with my staff, but things are a bit slow. Which is totally fine. We also all know that staff have to enforce realism and keep PCs from going mad with power. They also have to fend off jealousy and claims of favoritism and corruption. So naturally they have to squash some plots, curtail things and keep themselves from affecting the gameworld enough to upset people.

The only problems I've ever experienced with staff are when both of those converge -- when a staffer doesn't have the time to start up things themselves and are quick to keep PCs from doing things on their own. To give a completely fictitious example... maybe a staffer tells a noble PC that his project is too ambitious for his rank, but then doesn't really offer much help or staff support for a different project because of a lack of time?

Does this make any sense? Its not something I've really experienced a whole lot of myself, but I've seen a lot of leadership PCs where it seems like that's what's going on. I've seen one or two RPTs collapse because of a lack of staff support.

[spawnloser]

I didn't read anything but the first post.  All I have to say is this:

You obviously haven't met Shalooonsh.

[jcljules]

I didn't read anything but the first post.  All I have to say is this:

You obviously haven't met Shalooonsh.

I was about to say that another reason staff has to be careful about pushing forward plots and generally be awesome is because they run the risk of becoming 'the popular' staffer and making everybody else look bad. i.e. Shalooonsh. I've seen dozens of "who's your favorite staff?" thread and everybody answers Shalooonsh and then it gets shut down.

[Lizzie]

jcjules, I see, and have experienced some of what you've expressed. It -can- be frustrating. But if you stick it out long enough, eventually..things will turn around. Maybe not with -that- plotline. But. I'm one of those people who tend to have long-lived PCs. I'm definitely not the only one and my PC is -definitely- not as long lived as some who are still around now. Not even close. But I think 9 months is long enough for me to qualify as someone who has a clue about frustrations, and getting past them.

I get pissy about one plotline not going my way..or being rejected on an idea..and then I get so busy with the RP of things, that the plotline or idea doesn't get forgotten, exactly, but it just kinda shifts to a different section of my brain. By the time I get back to it, there's more "stuff" I'm able to do with it. And then it gets exciting again. And then I get turned down, or the staff tosses a roadblock in my direction, and I get frustrated again. I forget about the frustration quickly because of the OTHER things going on in the game. In the meantime, that plotline either stays on hold, or someone else is already running with it their own way..or the PCs involved die and the plotline dies with them. And then a new one comes along.

I'd say I *think* about retiring my character every other week. For..a couple of hours. It's just the nature of having a long-lived PC and I -know- it has little to do with the staff's treatment of me or my characters.

[LoD]

The "glory days" of Armageddon are a complete matter of perception, and often have as much to do with you and where you are in your life as it has to do with the state of the game.  In the same way that many of us recall certain genres of music, time periods, video game systems, or memories from our youth, Armageddon is something that means something different to all of us.

I began Armageddon in 1991, when some of you probably weren't even in Kindergarten.  If I look back and try to remember the "glory days" of Armageddon, I find myself gravitating toward those times when I had the unique combination of a good character concept, lots of free time, and a good group of supporting roles that happened to share those qualities playing in my general area.  Having the luxury of an elongated perspective, I've been able to see this cycle repeat a few times, separated by several years.  What I've learned is that my enjoyment of Armageddon is not directly linked to any one set of policies, group of people, or set of code.

My enjoyment of Armageddon is linked to myself, and to that collection of variables that slowly ebb and flow.  What served as an important realization to me was that Armageddon had outlasted nearly every other game I'd ever enjoyed throughout my life.  With the exception of a few board games or sports, few could match its longevity and absolutely none could match the frequency with which I had fun playing the game.  There have been groups of weeks, months, and even years, where I have either not been willing or able to play the game, but it's one of the few unique experiences I've encountered in my life thus far.

Armageddon isn't a single roller coaster to be ridden hard and fast, it's an entire theme park to be savored and enjoyed.  If you feel that the coasters aren't going as fast as they used to, don't flip as hard as they did, or aren't as frightening as you remember -- wander around the park a bit and try something new.

You may just learn something new -- about the game, and about yourself.

-LoD

[FantasyWriter]

Armageddon isn't a single roller coaster to be ridden hard and fast, it's an entire theme park to be savored and enjoyed.  If you feel that the coasters aren't going as fast as they used to, don't flip as hard as they did, or aren't as frightening as you remember -- wander around the park a bit and try something new.

You may just learn something new -- about the game, and about yourself.

-LoD

I wish that was short enough to sig.
Well said, LoD, well said.

[Jestor]

I think LoD stated exactly what I was thinking. 

Having been through some of the 'glory days' as one of those characters that made some lasting impacts on the world we all play in now, I can -honestly- say that this game is just as interesting now as it was then, though sometimes different.  It is intensely personal and exactly what you make of it!

For any new players that may become discouraged by some of the negative tones, remember there are probably just as many of us who have played off an on for 12+ years that feel this is still the best role playing we have ever had and look forward to another 12 years, especially when it becomes new once more with Arm2's release (first to the XBOX 360 then to the PC!).

-Jestor

[Lizzie]

Here's your sig for you, shortened FW:

LOD:

a single roller coaster to be ridden hard and fast...an entire theme park to be savored and enjoyed.

You're welcome.

[th3kaiser]

The glass ceiling was built in Cenyr. I say we all ride/run our asses out there and lay siege to that den of evil-doers. Down with Cenyr!

[jcljules]

jcjules, I see, and have experienced some of what you've expressed. It -can- be frustrating. But if you stick it out long enough, eventually..things will turn around. Maybe not with -that- plotline. But. I'm one of those people who tend to have long-lived PCs. I'm definitely not the only one and my PC is -definitely- not as long lived as some who are still around now. Not even close. But I think 9 months is long enough for me to qualify as someone who has a clue about frustrations, and getting past them.

I'm not exceptionally frustrated with anything. But I was pointing out that I haveseen the problems that others have described. I haven't played many leadership roles, being relatively new, but I've seen others struggle with them, and its not hard to figure out why. Overall I still think the staff do a great job and that the onus is primarily on players to make their own fun. But its not perfect.

[Olgaris]

(Peronal opinion)

This era of staffing policy is probably one of the best times for players leading plots and doing awesome stuff since I started playing almost a decade ago. Sometimes I find myself wondering why players are not walking through all these open doors, and exploring all the avenues available to them, and doing all the totally awesome wicked stuff that they are capable of doing. Then I realize it is likely because our current policy is to not nudge. We do not lead plotlines. This might be part of the reason why submitting an entire plotline in story format (I am not privy to the details at all) is going to end in a turn-down. Our role as staff is to make sure the world reacts appropriately to player actions. This is not the staff's game, it is not the player's game, it is our game.

There are no PC raider groups because nobody has started them.

Nobody has tried to blow up the Gaj because nobody has tried to blow up the Gaj.

Kurac has not taken over Salarr because Kurac has not taken over Salarr, not because some immortals said no, but in the ficticious scenario I am talking about right now, the staff have put up the appropriate hurdles (better term than road-blocks) that realistically a PC would face when trying to convince their Great Merchant House to take over another Great Merchant House with whom they have had long-standing (multiple generations) trade deals and alliances with.

I don't say no to plots. I might say that your superiors do not support certain actions, but that is entirely different than saying no to a plot. You can piss off your superiors. Immortals don't mind if you act against your superior's wishes. Yes, your superiors will come down against you. But if it is a direction it makes sense for your character to go, we will respect that.

So when reading this thread, take away two things. Everything LoD said, and this:

Be the change you want to see in Armageddon. That "glass ceiling" is really, really, really high. Much higher than you would expect. You can absolutely change the world. Just do it. The change will not occur overnight.

[musashi]

I love that ... two things to take away from this thread: Everything LoD said and ...

[Lizzie]

100% in agreement with Olgaris' opinion. It doesn't stop me from being frustrated, and feeling like my uber takeover the world plot is being rejected. But like I said, it's not hard -at all- to get over that feeling, move on to something else, and return to that world take-over plot next week when something new and interesting has developed to move things along.

Sometimes, we players NEED more than a nudge. Sometimes, we're being absent-minded and not noticing clues, and need that club over the head that says, "Yes you twinky player, we WANT you to take over the world. But those ninja pirate zombie robots who you have only barely even heard exist, are doing something, that you need to know about first. You need to hire more minions and send THEM out to bring you this information! So - hire more minions, doofus, and stop bitching that you can't get your shit done."

Sometimes - we need to hear that.

[Olgaris]

"Yes you twinky player, we WANT you to take over the world. But those ninja pirate zombie robots who you have only barely even heard exist, are doing something, that you need to know about first. You need to hire more minions and send THEM out to bring you this information! So - hire more minions, doofus, and stop bitching that you can't get your shit done."

Consider it said.

[jstorrie]

Unless 2.Arm brings really dramatic breakthroughs in game design, the glass ceiling and walls are always going to be a problem to players in high-powered roles.

Give the man a prize.

There's a reason why most pen-and-paper RPGs focus on small-time adventurers, and come to a close when players reach 'epic' levels. When a single player can change the whole world, the administrative upkeep becomes intense.

Players in sponsored roles should be aware that they aren't going to be able to trot around building cities, inventing firearms, starting the Rennaissance, or whatever. The bigger your actions the more likely they simply won't be feasible to implement, and that's not because staff hates you or because they don't care.

If anything, Armageddon has put more of its focus on 'the small guy' in order to maintain a high degree of immersion and roleplaying quality. If you don't want to hit the glass ceiling, start as a Normal Dude, rather than hopping up to the top of the ladder with a sponsored role. The only PC I can think of in recent memory who hit 'the glass ceiling' literally won at an entire city and became a famous nobleman, and it's not like that happens often. Be realistic about the scope of your plans.

I came over from a light-RP mud in which PCs did frequently rise to the level of princes, kings, guildmasters, etc. It was horrible. The 'glass ceiling' is a fact of life in roleplaying games, and when the needs of players start to exceed the capacity of gamemasters, the whole deal starts to suffer. I love Armageddon because, while it does have the infrequent 'epic role' going on, most people are playing smelly miners who often don't get up to much at all. Different strokes for different folks, maybe, but I'd like to think I get what makes a good roleplaying game.

[jcljules]

I agree with what Lizzie said. I think everyone would benefit from more staff feedback. Not staff started plots, but feedback. Such as, "Thanks for the report! Your superiors are pleased that the caravan was profitable and they recommend buying xyz next time and perhaps trading with x tribe." Instead of, "Thanks for the Report," or nothing.

[Oleupata]

Sometimes, we players NEED more than a nudge. Sometimes, we're being absent-minded and not noticing clues, and need that club over the head...

Personal staffing philosophy:

When this happens, email your staff. I won't go so far as to say that everyone will be tripping over themselves to give you a hint, but I can say that I, personally, am more than happy to brainstorm with you^* in those situations where you want to make something move forward but just can't see how.

^* When "you" happen to be in clans that I staff. I won't poach.

[Lizzie]

I get the staff feedback, I just get obtuse sometimes and need something more specific than "Your superiors feel that the enemy is too strong for you to take down right now." I know that doesn't mean I can't take them down anyway, or try. But, if my "superiors" know of a way I -could- weaken them..seeing as how they're superior and all Well - I could use a clue.

As for Olgaris, he's just being mean to me. I'm not a doofus. And no one is good enough to be my minion!

[Olgaris]

I agree with what Lizzie said. I think everyone would benefit from more staff feedback. Not staff started plots, but feedback. Such as, "Thanks for the report! Your superiors are pleased that the caravan was profitable and they recommend buying xyz next time and perhaps trading with x tribe." Instead of, "Thanks for the Report," or nothing.

With the specific example, we would never give such advice. While it might make sense for your superiors to tell you how to make a bit more coin (for example) it is unfair when it is staff telling you how to make more coin. Also if we told you to try trade with x tribe and it worked out great, it is unfair to players who don't have staff coaching them, and if it worked out poorly, players could get pissed off that they were set up for failure.

I second Oleupata's sentiment. If you want advice, ask for it. But it is not our role to give you unsolicited advice on what goals to pursue. Used to be. Made people angry. It was the old cry of you can't get involved in anything unless you are a staff pet. Now YOU (plural) make things happen.

I get a lot of reports that don't seem to ask any questions, they are just telling me stuff that went on. I appreciate them (I don't get to watch as often as I would like) and always send thanks. If you have questions or want nudges, ask ask ask. If it is something along the lines of "do you think it is a good idea to attack x?" then we won't be able to answer, but if you ask "I want to attack X, what do I need to do to make this happen properly?" then the answer will probably be along the lines of: Get your crew together, give me a date, let me know your plan in advance. Then the world can react.

Word.