Magicker population?

[Synthesis]

There are ways to shun magickers, without being a total farkwad.

1) Don't invite them to your parties.

2) Don't invite them out on hunting trips.

3) Don't trade with them, even if they're the *only* PC in town.

4) Don't talk to them.

5) Don't sit at the same table as them.

6) Any time one enters the room, leave.

7) Ditto the above for anyone else who deals with them.

It might be totally right, but with the amount of magickers right now, you are making your life more boring than you would make theirs. It shows, people come back an hour later and talk to the gemmers.

1) What parties? For every mundane party, there's probably five gemmer parties going on.

2) Hunting trips? Gemmers probably hunt more than the Salarri hunters, lately.

3) Gemmers are some of the wealthiest PCs in game, not trading with them would be.. Dumb.

4) See the part where the mundanes get bored and come back to talk and be buddies again within an hour.

5) They couldn't care less, gemmers are often in groups together at the Gaj, mundanes are often alone.

6) That makes us giggle more than anything else.

I never claimed any of these to be an "ooh, gotcha, checkmate" solution.

I just finished playing a 25 day gemmer, I know what the culture is all about.

[RogueGunslinger]

If you want to insult a gemmer in the gaj, the current gemmers are all pretty damn good players, and probably know how to take it. Be tactful, and smart with your insults.

[Agent_137]

mundanes,
avoiding gemmers is boring play for both parties. this game is about interacting. Gemmers ONLY come southside to interact, just like you ONLY sit at the bar for interaction. So play the damn game and interact!

(may i suggest fearful looks, changing tables, boasting of your combat prowess, whatever your PC would do that also allows for interaction. Surely you can come up with something better than just leaving.)

Gemmers,
don't be ICly or OOCly ignorant about the impact on mundanes when you go around publicly in packs. Bring that awareness into the game. If there are 3 or more, you KNOW that you are making -all- the mundanes around you uncomfortable and that you will be in their nightmares for at least a few days.

Aren't you afraid they'll pay some gem-unfriendly templar to come give you some trouble? Be aware! You are NOT an f-me/aide PC with cool flashy powers. You are a fucking abomination that eats children. Act like you know it, even if you don't believe it.

(Further, most gemmers do not come from gemmer parents, and most likely grew up fearing and hating magick. How does that affect your psyche? Does it impact how you deal with mundanes? Knowing their same fear, but having to face it daily in the mirror? If you skip all these questions with some bullshit line in your background, then you are shorting yourself AND all of us.)

[a strange shadow]

^ read it.

Well said.

[Synthesis]

Sometimes, ignoring people is better than interacting merely for interaction's sake.

If I'm painting in watercolors, there's no point in scribbling on the canvas with a crayon, just because there's one lying on the floor.

[RogueGunslinger]

Sometimes, ignoring people is better than interacting merely for interaction's sake.

If I'm painting in watercolors, there's no point in scribbling on the canvas with a crayon, just because there's one lying on the floor.

Well obviously. But if you're all out of paint, then you're going to use the crayon.

[titansfan]

Lol, my comment was more of a joke, but seriously there are ways to make that flame throwing krathi's life a pain.

[number13]

Gemmers,
don't be ICly or OOCly ignorant about the impact on mundanes when you go around publicly in packs. Bring that awareness into the game. If there are 3 or more, you KNOW that you are making -all- the mundanes around you uncomfortable and that you will be in their nightmares for at least a few days.

Aren't you afraid they'll pay some gem-unfriendly templar to come give you some trouble? Be aware! You are NOT an f-me/aide PC with cool flashy powers. You are a fucking abomination that eats children. Act like you know it, even if you don't believe it.

There have been a couple Gaj interactions I've had with gemmed that really played this sort of thing up. Belated, public kudos to them. It was the sort of mundane<-->magicker interaction I actually enjoy.

[Gunnerblaster]

I feel for you, though, because yes, I often see 3-5 gemmers all sitting together and acting like they own the place, and there's
only 1 mundane or 2 around, and it must be really hard to pick on a gemmer when the rest of his group will protect him.

I do not have a problem with the amount of magicker-roles that I am seeing strolling around but what I -do- have a problem with is when they actually seem to throw away all of their roleplaying culture. I have seen magickers talking down on people. To my knowledge, I figured magickers were below scum, so what gives? Is this something I missed or are all gemmed suddenly growing balls and getting 'hardcore'?

We need more mage hunters and people who view them with murderous intent!

[Jenred]

Its a phenomenon that happens under a few circumstances.

1: Larger, more consistently playing Pbase.
2: Larger fraction of more capable players among that Pbase.
3: Players staying with the game longer.
4: Larger staffing pool to observe players.
5: More Karma being awarded.

To break it down into dialogue. There is seemingly a more consistent level of people playing. This would imply that we are both getting more new players, players are sticking around longer, and/or possibly old players returning. As such, the number of accounts with Karma/Trust of the staff increases... helped out by the generally larger number of active staff.

This is also coupled with an outside phenomenon. The GDB. More than ever, and definitely in EXTREMELY high frequency compared to the old-GDB, magick intricacies are talked about conversationally. Sometimes entire several page long threads to the various subtleties of cantrips, or other features, or roleplaying, etc.  Basically advertising the karma-restricted playing options.

So as soon as some players get the opprotunity they are rolling up characters, and sticking with them because of a common avenue to approach gaming: demystification. It is something to unravel and figure out. Thats why some characters get locked in these roles, because they have never quite "beat" the magick system.


And now, as things seem to be (disclaimer... it doesn't seem to ME we are any closer to the end) moving towards the end of the game, there is a common theory that the End will be something magickal, as most of the major events of the game's history have been. So playing a magick-character seems to be a way for players to try and connect with the crazy-backstory things going on.

Another theory is that... there have always been a decent portion of the population of the Pbase that have been magickers, but just up until recently they haven't gone out as much. This could be correct too.

[Fathi]

We need more mage hunters and people who view them with murderous intent!

This doesn't solve the problem and it almost always comes off as borderline OOC-motivated when people play these types of characters.

[Eloran]

We need more mage hunters and people who view them with murderous intent!

Sorry, but mage hunters (unless they are mages themselves) make absolutely no fucking sense.

You should not be attempting to kill a mage under almost any circumstances. For all your character knows they eat babies and shit fire.

[zaraj]

For all your character knows they eat babies and shit fire.

Or vice versa.

[Rairen]

We need more mage hunters and people who view them with murderous intent!

Sorry, but mage hunters (unless they are mages themselves) make absolutely no fucking sense.

You should not be attempting to kill a mage under almost any circumstances. For all your character knows they eat babies and shit fire.

Well, no... It's possible to study something that you aren't and become an intelligent hunter - if you can trick your prey into letting you close.  Or, you know, be a stupid hunter and die.  Either case, both perfectlly reasonable variants of normal behavior - with, of course, the caveat that Fathi mentioned that it's not easy to play this well. 

That said, I enjoy walking into conflicted roles.  People trying to kill me, might make me more likely to play the role because I know I'd have something to do. 

[Morrolan]

There are a few other factors to be taken into account with the "roving pack" "problem" of multiple gemmers in the Gaj.

1) There are no social rules to manage these interactions.  There are no social conventions.  That's wierd.  That means the options are "Kill", "Flee",  and "Ignore"

     a) There should be a table commonly known as the "gemmers table".  Gemmers don't have to sit there, but they commonly would.

     b) There is no consistent mythology of what gemmers can and can't do.  In RL there are legends of such things, and we don't even have mages!

     c) No one complains about the magickers they never/rarely see.

2) In the realm of magickers, AFAIK, it has come in vogue to complain about the "problem" on the GDB.  Then again, maybe it has always been in vogue.

     a) If you don't like it, e-mail staff.  Get your friends to email staff.  If that doesn't work...well, tough.

     b) The complaining on the GDB has done just as much to demystify wigglers as any pro-mage, gem-hugging, Qel-smoking, peace and love hippy (who eats babies).

     c) I played consistently from about 2003 to the copper-wars without knowing a damn thing about magick.  I think I met one mage when I was a Byn Sarge (contract).  The turn, I think, was at the time of the Copper Wars, when the gemmers -really- went to war.  I remember some discussion of recognizing their service.  It was quashed, I speculate, but the sentiment was never really lost.  The role of gemmers did seem to change from that time.  Perhaps that doesn't make everyone happy, but that's the oral history as I remember it.

     d) Magickers, like mundanes, are actors on the social and political scene.  You can take away their rights, but not their agency!  (In a Bourdieu sorta way...)

Morrolan

--mod for readability--

[Eloran]

Well, no... It's possible[...]

No.

No.

NO.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

Listen to me, I implore you.
***********************************************************************

Fighting a magicker should be the equivalent of going up against a 500 lb football player loaded on PCP, with an unstable cold-war era Soviet nuclear suitcase bomb strapped to his arm.

You should NEVER want to fight one.

Let me repeat this, for all of you 'mage hunters' out there.

You should NEVER want to fight one.

Magickers are not people.  They are half demon things that eat babies, lurk in shadows, and can strike you with a curse to make your genitalia swell to the size of a wagon which then starts to try to choke the life out of you.  You DO NOT know what they can do.  You DO NOT have any defense.

-EVERY- mage should be treated differently... but they aren't.  -EVERY- mage should be feared... but they aren't.  This is because players realize that in a slug fest, they might have a chance.  "Oh, that's a sardine elementalist... he has 'create salt' and 'everlasting tin container of safety' and no real offensive spells.  I can take him!"  UNTRUE.  Your CHARACTER has no bloody idea if that PC actually can actually cast 'floppy halibut of pain' and make you dance a horizontal jig while he curses every one you have ever known.

[Gunnerblaster]

We need more mage hunters and people who view them with murderous intent!

This doesn't solve the problem and it almost always comes off as borderline OOC-motivated when people play these types of characters.

I was joking.



-Re-edited to not be a jerk-

[Synthesis]

You should never WANT to fight one.

Sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

[Rairen]

(Random stuff and a cool quote from Shal.)

Thank you for sharing that, as I think it proves a point other than the one you're making (ie, reinforcing magical superstition, particularly as it relates to Joe Commoner).  I'm not going to debate poor Shal out of context because I'd be willing to bet a great deal that this was an argument against flippacy to magickers, which I don't promote and was/is a long-standing theme in the game.  That's why Fathi is right (as I said) that folks don't in general handle 'hunter' roles well.  It's very hard to do in an ICly and OOCly appropriate way.  However, neither will I ever totally give up the torch that there's no place for a well-played hunter.  

Thank you for explaining the context you're approaching from, but just as you'd like to throw a wall in front of someone, I'd rather not prevent a good player from taking on the challenge of a role due to OOC pressure.

Just to clarify:
1.  I'd rather greater respect of the scariness of magic, hands down, too.  
2.  People should always learn to master the mundane before jumping into crazy stuff like this because it makes the game stronger and it makes them stronger, too.
3.  I strongly dislike OOC pressures telling people what is or is not acceptable to play within the game, assuming they have a good backing for what they want to do.  It kills the fun.  In this case, they'd best have a -damn- good reason.
4.  For every basic rule of thumb for roleplay, a capable, experienced RPer can twist and break it.  It's #17 or #18 on my list of gaming rules. It also comes with the responsibility to respect the environment you're walking into - and the undoubted consequence of death.

[Eloran]

Thank you for sharing that, as I think it proves a point other than the one you're making (ie, reinforcing magical superstition, particularly as it relates to Joe Commoner).

Not just Joe Commoner, but everyone, save for mages themselves and templars who wield magickal powers.

However, neither will I ever totally give up the torch that there's no place for a well-played hunter.

That's just it: There's no place for a well-played hunter, because any character who hunts mages is obviously stupid and has a death wish. It's also stupid ooc, because usually "mage hunters" only hunt mages that they have dirt on OOC. I remember one of the last mage hunters who targeted one specific group of mages before all others, because he had extensive knowledge of their strengths/weaknesses. His own guild was one that measured up better against said group of mages than other guilds.

The only time mages should be hunted/fought is in large groups, and out of fear/the inherent need to protect one's home/family. If your profession is "mage hunter," and you actually hunt mages for a living, I just..nevermind.

Thank you for explaining the context you're approaching from, but just as you'd like to throw a wall in front of someone, I'd rather not prevent a good player from taking on the challenge of a role due to OOC pressure.

It's not OOC pressure sir. It's about playing within the boundaries of the game world. It's about staying true to the documentation.

I'd rather greater respect of the scariness of magic, hands down, too.

You're not going to see if it you want to see mage hunters in game.

I strongly dislike OOC pressures telling people what is or is not acceptable to play within the game, assuming they have a good backing for what they want to do.  It kills the fun.  In this case, they'd best have a -damn- good reason.

I'm not killing anyone's fun. Or at least, I'm not trying to. I just don't want to see a pack of mage hunters running about teaming up on mages. I want people to stay true to the documentation. I want people to respect and fear mages. Please don't accuse me of trying to strongarm people into not playing out a concept. It's not about shouting someone down, so much as it is telling someone that playing a mage hunter just doesn't fit the mold of Zalanthas.

For every basic rule of thumb for roleplay, a capable, experienced RPer can twist and break it.

They can, but at the expense of other players, as well as the game itself.

It also comes with the responsibility to respect the environment you're walking into - and the undoubted consequence of death.

I contend that if you're creating a character who is built specifically to hunt mages (unless they're a mage themself) then you are not respecting the environment.

We're derailing, though. We should get back on topic.

[brytta.leofa]

I suggest a new help topic: magick superstition.  Something that outlines the common gamut of beliefs and feelings in the major settlements.

[Jingo]

This thread really just proves that there is no possible consensus on mage interactions.

I've seen a huge wide, range of reactions to gemmers and magickers alike. Most of them unsupported by the docs. Which makes me wonder if it's our roleplay or the whole magick system that needs rethinking.

Also, I specifically apped a "mage hunter" special application once. Complete with a few goodies to make it possible and the intent to make it so. It was rejected and the staff told me that it's something that should be pursued in game through a normal application. Go figure.

[Eloran]

Which makes me wonder if it's the system or our roleplay that needs rethinking.

The latter. People just need to follow the guidelines. It's not that difficult really.

[Rairen]

Psst... a few things...

1.  It's a philosophic debate about a game we play in our spare time.  Don't get so worked up over it so that you get your head all in a muddle.
2.  A unique, well-played, challenging, documentation-appropriate RP does not break the game or ruin it for other people. It makes it interesting.  It's okay to have reservations about abuse, but still be open-minded about the wonderful things the players here can create in this world, mundane or otherwise, if you give them the chance and guidelines they need to succeed.
3.  I understand your strong feelings against this.  Please, also, respect mine in seeing the hint of potential for it.  We can't both of us win, and I would wager that this extends to many other roles or code bases which can be seen as OOCly exploitative (whatever that means for the week).
4.  It's ma'am.



Edit:  I just saw Brytta's suggestion.  That should exist if it doesn't already.  Is it mentioned only in the "Things You Know" sort of entries?

[Jenred]

It is not just mundanes "formulating" opinions about magickers.

More than a few magicker characters have gone out of their way to stress their normalcy, relative safety and even touch on the extent of their powers. Even if they are lying completely, its still a concerted effort of "demon baby eaters" to calm the populace about their presence.

Not to mention those employed by Oash in the past.