Thread Derail: When is Silk Okay?!

[Fathi]

I think he's asking if they're still running around in silks, pretending to be nobles.

This brings up a more general question. Are silks for nobles only (and for aides when the nobles decide to dress them up)?

Who else can wear them without being seen as a social pretender?

Templars, merchants, important slaves, anybody else a noble or templar decides to dress up, and f-mes.

I didn't want to derail the magicker thread with my reply to this and I think it's a topic that generally creates enough discussion to warrant its own posts.

Southie's pretty much got it, and when playing a commoner that does frequent business with the nobility of their city-state, I tend to follow some pretty simple rules of thumb, provided it's IC for my character to care at all how they're seen in such a situation:

• If you're going to do business with a noble on his or her property, dress up a little. Cloth instead of armour if your PC usually wears it, clean your armour if you're there for business that would require armour in some way. Showing that you respect someone enough to dress up when visiting them is a good thing!
• If you are a member of a mercantile organisation and you go to do business with a noble in a public place such as the Trader's or Sanctuary, dress up a little more--perhaps a silk cloak, some nicer jewelry, there are plenty of ways to show that your House has status without trying to outdress your clientele.
• If you've done business with this noble in the past, keep an eye on their tastes. It's easy to polish yourself up enough to show respect without outdressing somebody if you know what they wear.
• Templars generally care a LOT less than nobles about what your PC is wearing.
• If you're going to an RPT thrown by a noble, it doesn't hurt to ask one of their aides/partisans about the dress code!
• I'd think that generally, most commoners who don't have connections or guards would actually NOT like the idea of wandering around in public in silk all the time--it's a big bad world and the nicer your stuff is, the more appealing a target you are.

I think the deterring factor that keeps most commoners from wearing silk is cost. However, that doesn't apply quite so much to the PC world, but just because your character can afford a dress that costs 2600 'sid in a Kadian shop doesn't mean it's smart to wear it. In the end, I think the decision is up to your PC--if they want to wear silk, what's their justification? Would they wear their fancy stuff in public or private? And if they do so in public, are they ready to handle any potential consequences such as social persecution by their betters or being mugged for it?

[Morrolan]

I would like to see sumptuary laws.  Those are the laws that say "only someone of this rank can wear purple" and such things.

Like, "Only professional military wear abas in Bartertown.  Only town militia wear grey.  Only the town leaders wear silk.  It's not a cost issue, it's a caste issue.  No commoner will be found wearing a red cloak."

They don't even have to make any more sense than most laws.  But these laws were common all through history.  Putting a commoner is silks doesn't make him a noble.  But it does get him a night in the stocks, for example.  Or a fine.

Morrolan

[staggerlee]

Stuff about silk.

Very excellent post.

I'd just add in that as well as social persecution from your betters, you're likely to get it from your peers.  Hanging out in a slummy bar like the Gaj in silks is a good way to alienate yourself from everyone around you.  Sure your salt grebber has the money to wear a pretty silk skirt, but your coworkers might think you're trying to imply that you're better than them... and that drunk bynner over there in the corner might say the same with his fists.

Basically, Fathi hit the nail on the head. If you don't have the prestige and protection behind you to back up what your clothes say, wearing silks is  just going to make you a target for abuse from all corners of society.

[Barzalene]

This isn't definitive, just an opinion. I think that nobles should be the one in the really expensive stuff, and expensive stuff from head to toe. I think that silk and more expensive accents are more appropriate for commoners. Especially if those employees are house employees. I'd think Lady Borsail should be ashamed if her aide is better dressed than she.

[Marauder Moe]

On the other hand... nobles know that the common people look up to them and, when possible/legal naturally desire to emulate them.

However, it is very true that displaying wealth without an obvious source is definitely a good way to attract bad attention.

[manonfire]

I dunno what to think. There's a certain shop in a certain quarter of a certain city that caters to certain people, and the shopkeeper sells a silk cloak.

So.. what's the implication there?

[Fathi]

This isn't definitive, just an opinion. I think that nobles should be the one in the really expensive stuff, and expensive stuff from head to toe. I think that silk and more expensive accents are more appropriate for commoners. Especially if those employees are house employees. I'd think Lady Borsail should be ashamed if her aide is better dressed than she.

Definitely. I don't like the mindset that if you're wearing a silk skirt/cloak, you can't just wear linen or sandcloth or leather everywhere else!

Also, if you're a commoner worried about potentially outdressing your boss, keep in mind that there are dozens if not hundreds of items in the Kadius database that are silk-lined, silk-trimmed, embroidered, etc. that are quite tasteful and classy but don't pack the same social punch, and also conveniently cost less!

[jstorrie]

It's not unreasonable for a commoner to have a small silk accessory, like a scarf or a favourite hat.

One of the big problems with tying silk to caste is that in the part of the world where caste divisions are most socially important–Tuluk–silk is a major export and common product. You can pick up a silk greatcloak in Tuluk for about the same price as a good desert duster. In Allanak the caste divisions are much more simple, tending to fall down to just templar–noble–commoner. You also have to keep in mind that Kadius would probably throw a fit if some Allanaki senator tried to pass laws restricting silk to noble use only.

From personal experience, I think silk should be more likely to sweat-stain than other fabric types, which could be a mitigating factor keeping it off of worker backs.

Some caste-based norms in regions of 2.Arm would be sweet, though. At any rate, displaying wealth without obvious affiliation is a good way to get yourself roughed-up by sneakies, shaken down by militia and squeezed for bribes from the templarate–as well as identified as an obvious target for harrassment by nobles.

[Mood]

I would like to see sumptuary laws.

Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

[Lizzie]

You also have to keep in mind that Kadius would probably throw a fit if some Allanaki senator tried to pass laws restricting silk to noble use only.

If I was a Kadian with enough clout in my family to manipulate prices, I would probably -love- sumptuary laws. It would mean I get to double the price of linens, finally.  I can raise the prices big-time for "wealthy commoners," because if they want to look better than beggars, they are no longer allowed to wear silks. That would open the linen market BIG-time, for a Kadian.

I would totally special app a Kadian if I knew there were senate-imposed sumptuary laws for Allanak

[jstorrie]

But linen is cheap; if the market for it suddenly became huge, and Kadius had a lot of its infrastructure tied up in the silk market, it'd open them up to risk of competition. The GMHs do not like it when the Armboat is rocked.

[LauraMars]

A lot of southern silk garments as fucking uncomfortable as hell if you read the descriptions.  This should be a deterrent for the workaday commoner, even if the value (for some reason) isn't.  So too should silk's fragility deter mages, with their running around being wet and glowing all the time.  Water is bad for silk, as in, it completely ruins it.  So does fire, sand, lightning, and strong wind.  The only "element" I can think of that doesn't really ruin silk would be shadows.  So drovians, go nuts, I guess, if you don't mind being sneered at even more.  The rest of you, I frown.  I frown at you.  You are ruining your clothes.  Poor clothes!

[enigma]

I think that part of the problem is that when people think "nice clothes", they forget that linen is only second to silk, and is really nice stuff in its own right.  Maybe because it's a lot cheaper?

[Gimfalisette]

From http://www.armageddon.org/general/clothing.html , the relevant documentation:

Commoners often look to nobility for examples in most aspects of life, and fashion is no exception. The styles of commoner clothing available, while simpler and cheaper, often imitate that of nobles. For example, while nobles often wear ornately decorated silks and other lush fabrics, commoners wear cottons, sandcloth or other inexpensive textiles.

Cotton, with its shine and ability to take dye, has become the dominant material in commoners� clothing, while the secondary choice is linen, although those who can afford it will opt for silk. Clothes are decorated with bright floral or fauna patterns. Solid colors may be accented with elaborate stitchings. Both upper and lower classes appreciate lace of varying quality.

Silk and linen are both cheap in Tuluk. Silk is EXPENSIVE in Allanak, while linen and other materials are still cheap. Thus, in Allanak, wearing silk should be a status symbol, whereas in Tuluk it's much more about the craftsmanship of the item itself. Anyone can wear silk in Tuluk and it really shouldn't raise concerns as to them being "above" themselves, like it would in Allanak.

As LauraMars mentioned, the cut of the clothing is important in Allanak as well. The more restrictive the garment, the more of an "upper class" item it is. Something described as hampering movement or severely restrictive (I've seen both clothing and jewelry desced like this) should be worn only by nobles or their very pampered concubines of long standing.

A couple of items of silk for daily wearing, or all silk for special occasions, is OK for the upper tiers of commoners in Allanak.

[a strange shadow]

Even when playing an upper class citizen, I dislike decking my character out head to toe in silk.

It just doesn't feel very Zalanthan at all to me.

[jstorrie]

I think that part of the problem is that when people think "nice clothes", they forget that linen is only second to silk, and is really nice stuff in its own right.  Maybe because it's a lot cheaper?

My quickly-retired Tuluki noble loved him some linen. Personal preference for a slighty chunkier fabric.

I mean, seriously, I've worn silk in the IRL and not really dug it. My nice linen sheets, on the other hand, feel great.

[jstorrie]

Female players should feel free to come visit me if they don't believe me on that one, too.

[Simple]

That you have worn silk??

[Qzzrbl]

Female players should feel free to come visit me if they don't believe me on that one, too.

Sexist.... ¬_¬

::Edit::

I agree with alot that what was said here.... I think it would be a bad idea to wear silk if you're a lowly commoner, because some day you're going to be walking about the streets and you get that lovely, "You just got your ass sapped" echo. And after being dragged into an alley, you'll likely be killed by a pissed off thug who couldn't find anything worth taking off of you except for a few chunks of unworked obsidian and a bag of salt.

[Qzzrbl]

A lot of southern silk garments as fucking uncomfortable as hell if you read the descriptions.  This should be a deterrent for the workaday commoner, even if the value (for some reason) isn't.  So too should silk's fragility deter mages, with their running around being wet and glowing all the time.  Water is bad for silk, as in, it completely ruins it.  So does fire, sand, lightning, and strong wind.  The only "element" I can think of that doesn't really ruin silk would be shadows.  So drovians, go nuts, I guess, if you don't mind being sneered at even more.  The rest of you, I frown.  I frown at you.  You are ruining your clothes.  Poor clothes!

See.... If clothing degradation were in place.... 

[Lizzie]

What the Qzzrbl said...I've seen characters who claim to be hunters - and might even actually -be- hunters.. wearing silks. While out riding. This seems to me, very un-hunterish. I'm not saying that hunters should wear a uniform. It just doesn't make much sense of any kind, to me, that anyone would wear silk trousers while straddling a mount. If the thin material didn't cause *severe* chafing to the point of bleeding skin, it would wear out within the first day's ride and end up as nothing more than shredded cloth.

I see people wearing all kinds of weird stuff while they're out riding/hunting. But evening gowns, silken trousers, beaded silk blouses, silk and lace skirts...I mean come on. Unless your character is just doing a really bad job of hiding the fact that he isn't really a hunter at all, and you're RPing this intentionally, there's just no reason for it.

[Pale Horse]

What the Qzzrbl said...I've seen characters who claim to be hunters - and might even actually -be- hunters.. wearing silks. While out riding. This seems to me, very un-hunterish. I'm not saying that hunters should wear a uniform. It just doesn't make much sense of any kind, to me, that anyone would wear silk trousers while straddling a mount. If the thin material didn't cause *severe* chafing to the point of bleeding skin, it would wear out within the first day's ride and end up as nothing more than shredded cloth.

I see people wearing all kinds of weird stuff while they're out riding/hunting. But evening gowns, silken trousers, beaded silk blouses, silk and lace skirts...I mean come on. Unless your character is just doing a really bad job of hiding the fact that he isn't really a hunter at all, and you're RPing this intentionally, there's just no reason for it.

As much as I know what you're meaning, and I, too, have been guilty of having my characters ride about in what would be inappropriate clothing for the ordeal, I should point out that silk was actually used as an early form of armor for mounted warriors...at least the mongals used it, anyway.  Get a course enough form of silk, and it acts as a great way to keep arrow from embedding themselves too far in to your flesh, and are even more efficient at drawing the things back out by pulling on the material that got pulled inside when the shaft stuck you.

[psionic fungus]

Well... I think clean linens and silks were utilized mostly -under- leather armor.

The Japanese certainly knew that it could help prevent infection (and thus save lives) to have a light layer of a clean fabric under your armor, but silk just isn't durable enough to be used effectively by itself...

[Rindan]

If you worked at McDonalds, would you wear a suit to flip burgers (if there was no dress code)?  Probably not.  Even if you could afford it, you wouldn't do it.  Cleaning and cost aside, you wouldn't do it because you would feel very much 'out of your station'.  OK, now take a step away from our happy liberal democracies and try and imagine a world with brutally stark class division.  Would your commoner feel out of place wandering around in nice silk things?  Hell yes.  Cost aside, you should just feel wrong for stepping out of your station.  Walking into the Gaj in silk should get you the same sort of look you get if you walked into a dirty Boston Irish pub wearing a Tux.  People of your own class will instantly resent you.  People of a class higher than you will scorn you.  To add insult to injury, you will likely find yourself poorer when in the Gaj some drunkard dumps a drink on your silken lap.

I think most commoners would own no silk.  Moderately well off commoners might own some silk clothing, but would likely keep it packed away and only brought out for very special occasions.  Rich commoners might wear something closer to what a minor noble might wear, but only if they only deal with nobles.  Your Salarri walking into the Gaj wearing silk from head to toe is either very rich and can afford to burn through clothing rapidly, or very stupid.  Yeah, he might have a need to be there, but dressed head to toe in silk he isn't getting out with his clothing looking as nice as it was when he came in.

My advice?  Dress for your station, and dress for what your character does.  You might even consider a little layering and a second set of clothing.  Your noble aid or merchant might wear fine silk clothes when dealing with nobles (though not finer than the nobles ass you are trying to kiss) and rich commoners, but strip down to something a little more modest when they kick it back in the Gaj.

[Barzalene]

Also, while it may be possible to construct something weapon repellent from silk, the descs of the items available in game in no way hint at use of this technology.