On training backstab

[jmordetsky]

I have played quite a bit in the Rinth, thank you.

We are discussing deliberately training backstab. Check the thread title.

Yes, and a hunter who hunts, whether he is OCly hunting to do so, or not, is in fact, training his ability to hunt. The same is applicable to backstab.

Pants was simply saying that the mindless neurosis that surrounds and seperates backstab from the same treatment doesn't make sense.

Because one makes a living in said way does not mean that they have "constructed a character for the purpose of furthering their skills" as you've voiced. Especially in the context of specfic areas, aka the rinth.

Are you really trying to say that muggers or for that matter raiders who make their livings off the blood of other humanoid races are unzalanthan?
Have you *played* in allanak? Pits filled with bodies? Filthy rotten beggars that will kill you for a scrap of clothing worth  a reasonable amount in a local shop? Piles of bodies baking in the sun? Gith and d-elf raiders around every corner.

What game are you playing dude?

But players who app these sorts of darker side characters and then use the coded skills they're given are only doing so for teh purpose of boosting specific skills?

Um, no. To say so is irrational and illogical. You're chasing "twink" ghosts and projecting. Honestly, backstab is part of the game, using backstab is part of the game and using backstab the same way a hunter users archery is part of the game.

It is what it is, get over it and move on.

[jstorrie]

A mugging involves threatening someone and forcing them to hand over their goods. What you are describing are murderers, not muggers, and even in Zalanthas this is an important distinction.

I have also played quite a bit in Allanak, thank you.

[Clearsighted]

NPC muggers sure don't mind using backstab.

[jstorrie]

So? That has no bearing on what's appropriate PC conduct. NPCs sure don't mind endlessly sewing, never emoting, and never talking, either.

[Pantoufle]

At this stage in the thread, it sounds to me as though a number of people are simply disagreeing not to prove any grandiose point but rather simply for the sake of disagreeing.  As if it would be too much for one person to concede by saying, "Alright, yeah.  Some people play this game because they enjoy using their skills and have a desire to increase their skill percentage.  Provided that you do so within the heart of the game and that you are RPing out your skill acquisition, there's really nothing wrong with that."  Because ultimately, that's what this entire discussion boils down to, whether you use the backstab skill or the cooking skill as the forefront of your argument.

You cannot exactly impose a mental philosophy or attitude towards the game on other people.  I have both played virtually skill-less characters and characters who dedicated themselves to improving their (*gasp* dare I say it) CODED abilities.  From players to staff, there are those who are more keen on enjoying the coded side of this game than others.  You cannot force them to change their outlook on how and why they are improving their skills.  As long as they are still playing their character realistically and not violating the boundaries of realism in their endeavors (such as repeatedly stealing from an NPC who catches you on the first attempt), there's really nothing anyone can do about it.  Moreover, if someone is indeed RPing their skill acquisition, no one can prove whether they are doing it because they care only for the betterment of the MUD and improvement of its reality or because deep down inside they dare to just want to play a game, have fun and work towards having a powerful character.

[spawnloser]

jstorrie, just so we're clear...even characters like to get better at what they do and practice it so that they can.  Sure, players like to have their characters get better at what they do, but that doesn't mean that someone is being a twink just because the character is practicing what they do.

[Beux]

Oh man. I spam practise my floristry skills, all day every day. One day I'm going to be leetest florist in the Known World and pwn ALL OF YOU.

Beware the wrath of the florist.

[jmordetsky]

So? That has no bearing on what's appropriate PC conduct. NPCs sure don't mind endlessly sewing, never emoting, and never talking, either.

Just as a last knife into this dead kank of a thread.

A mugging is mugging whether you threaten or just plain kill the person.

Now, feel free to "threaten" and "ask" an npc for their shit all you want. Once in I dare say that in 100 attempts, an Imm who feels bad for your lonely existance will animate one, and you'll have a good scene.

The rest of the times will go something like this.

say (waving a dagger at ~victim) Give me your shit!

[silence]

say (waving a dagger at ~victim) Give me your shit!

[silence]

say (waving a dagger at ~victim) Give me your shit!

[victim walks east]

At this point, I'd say it's good and fair for you to backstab the fucking NPC and get on with your life.

Now, PC's different story. Some of my favorite RP has been on the giving or receiving end (haha, giving or receiving end) of a raiding or a mugging, provided everyone plays nice.


As an aside: Vote yes for a "threaten" command.


:goes home to hang himself.

[Clearsighted]

Heh. And I'm pretty sure the one time that an imm does animate the NPC, it'll end with you getting your arse kicked.

It could just be my character tends to attract trouble owing to his occupation and demeanor (though I've certainly never tried mugging a random NPC or getting into a fight I could avoid, and the twinkiest thing I've ever done was skin some corpses without emoting), but I've had quite a few imm interactions and *all* of them were hostile. Not in a bad way...I.E, I /loved/ it OOCly, but they all had a negative impact on my character ICly. So I don't think any imms are going to be making anyone's mugging easier.

Edit: Edited to clarify that not all my NPC interactions were hostile (such as clan related stuff, or trading in an mis-purchased item) But I imagine what we're discussing here is the sort of random NPC interaction you get while in semi-dangerous places doing semi-dangerous things. And I loved them all! Bad or good.

[jmordetsky]

Heh. And I'm pretty sure the one time that an imm does animate the NPC, it'll end with you getting your arse kicked.

It could just be something I'm doing wrong (though I've certainly never tried mugging a random NPC or getting into a fight I could avoid, and the twinkiest thing I've ever done was skin some corpses too fast), but I've had quite a few imm interactions and *all* of them were hostile. Not in a bad way...I.E, I /loved/ it OOCly, but they all had a negative impact on my character ICly. So I don't think any imms are going to be making anyone's mugging easier.

Honestly though if you play off peak and you're pretty isolated you start to invite the beatings.

I might go as far to say as I've considered doing some unrealistic shit just *so* something cool will happen.

[ThirdEye]

I know the feeling very well jmordetsky.

[Tisiphone]

Bah. Backstab anyone you want. Anytime, anywhere, for any reason.

Just don't expect him to NOT be upset with you for trying to steal his kidney with a sharp, pointy stick.

[Yang]

I have to come forward on this topic though I have been hesitant to do so since its beginnings, when a foreign presence posted it.

I have played a few assassins, and I play one currently under the new combat code. It surely would be in my interest to make backstab easier to train right? Wrong. Under no circumstance do I believe it should be easier to train. Under no circumstances do I think that assassins should be any more advantage than they already have, and trust me over the past 6 months, they have become more and more powerful, without any meaningful reduction to their potential.

With a warrior, a lot of the time you can run in with minimal planning, even in a group effort, and execute the tactics and strategies that will allow you victory. The skills can be straight forward. With an assassin however, things are not straight forward. To be honest, my time isn't spent finding new ways to practice my backstab so much as actually figuring out ways to totally own the mark in under 6 seconds, whethre the mark be in a tavern, a street, a night time alleyway, their own apartment, outdoors, whatever. Not just to kill of course, but to be a) unseen and b) get away from the scene of the crime without consequence.

So really I would say that most of my time as playing assassins has been really a matter of being a psychologist than a psychopath. You have to study people, time yourself, trained your accuracy, made sure payment/reward is secured and that you haven't been sent on a suicide mission.

As for accuracy, I reject the idea that you can stab someone anywhere not on legs or arms and they will die. This is fiction. There is a chance, of course, but the reason you usually see someone in the papers having died from multiple stab wounds is because that is what it will take. A single stab hurts, can cause problems, can even make you bleed to death after an hour but it's not exactly what we are looking at for backstab.

In ninjitsu there are accurate, trained strikes that cause instant death. For instance, striking the kidney properly and tearing it will lead to unavoidable death typically after 12 seconds. The kidney filters toxins out of your blood, so if it is harmed in such a fashion, your body poisons itself quite dramatically.

There was a guy as well who recently got a sting ray's stinger through his heart. The reason he lived? He didn't pull it out. The heart is a very strong muscle in your body and if you stab a knife into it, there's a good chance it'll get stuck there. If it's stuck, instant death doesn't occur. Why? Because it suctions around the blade tightly, preventing the internal bleeding. Remove the blade, and the heart muscle will violently pump blood not only into the body but out of it in many cases, again, quite dramatically.

So an assassin may indeed do a strike to the heart that will kill potentially in under 8 seconds, but they need to know exactly what to do to have a chance of executing this repeatedly.

There is a place on the neck, where your skull and spine connect. The spin goes into the skull at this point and inside connects to the medula oblongata and the rest of the brainstem. Shoving a knife upward into this hole properly will sever the spine from the brain and death will typically occurs in about the time it takes for the person to fall down, paralized and unable to breathe or supply enough oxygen to the brain through blood. So, death in perhaps 2-3 seconds, and again, quite dramatically.

If you believe you can sneak up on someone, execute an attack like that and disappear without a trace without years and years of training, you are deluding yourself without question. If you believe your character can 'practice' on someone without hurting them, you don't understand what exactly your character is practicing. You really have to get a 'feel' for it, even after years of theory to get to the Zalanthan level of total badass, which is a grim task indeed!

I believe that a truly worthy assassin begins to feel that way between 30-40 days if they have been pursuing their trade vigilantly and discretely. And though spawnloser's opinion is that magickers should be by default scarier than assassins, I personally disagree and would suggest he hasn't ever really had to deal with an assassin who has gotten to this level of ability. Every old character, 'mundane' or not, is able to attain the same epic quality as powerful magicker. Any opinion otherwise is just that: 'opinion'.

The staff over the years has made many changes to this class, and it is perhaps one of the most closely monitored. A smart, careful assassin can literally kill virtually any target he/she wants, though perhaps less so if he/she wants to get away with it.

I would regard any tweak to backstab to make it easier to learn as completely hostile to the gaming environment. If you want to go 'collect information' with a character, burglars and pickpockets are also great. The assassin class deserves respect and loyalty. If you are playing one, commit to it, but don't you dare believe that the ability to wreck havoc in the hearts and minds (and aortas and brainstems) of other PCs should just be handed over to you.

[spawnloser]

Yang, you misinterpreted what I said.  You are assuming that I said we the players should be scared of magickers more than assassins, as in in an OOC manner.  This seems to be the entire reason you've put forth for why assassins should be feared, their coded abilities and how they can apparently kill anyone with those coded abilities.

Okay, sure, assassins are great.  We players should have healthy respect for a long-lived and well-practiced, well-played assassin.  Again, this is not what I was talking about.

Think in character.  Characters, the people that live on Zalanthas, not Earth, should be scared of a magicker before an assassin any day.  Zalanthans know what an assassin does, stealthily kill people.  They don't know what magickers do beside make pacts with demons, eat babies and turn the blood in one's veins to acid.

[Yang]

Yang, you misinterpreted what I said.  You are assuming that I said we the players should be scared of magickers more than assassins, as in in an OOC manner.  This seems to be the entire reason you've put forth for why assassins should be feared, their coded abilities and how they can apparently kill anyone with those coded abilities.

Okay, sure, assassins are great.  We players should have healthy respect for a long-lived and well-practiced, well-played assassin.  Again, this is not what I was talking about.

Think in character.  Characters, the people that live on Zalanthas, not Earth, should be scared of a magicker before an assassin any day.  Zalanthans know what an assassin does, stealthily kill people.  They don't know what magickers do beside make pacts with demons, eat babies and turn the blood in one's veins to acid.

I did understand what you meant, and I disagree with such a sweeping statement implicitly. It is your opinion, and perhaps the cultural norm within some groups or societies on Zalanthas, but is by no means true enough for you to argue with me about it. (man me and typos today!)

[spawnloser]

The documentation for the game makes broad sweeping statements all the time.  We all know that there are exceptions and assuming that I am stating this as a hard and fast rule to which there are no exceptions is silly.

It is the cultural norm, not in some, but a majority of societies.  Those societies that have this norm also contain those with the largest populations, like Tuluk and Allanak.  Some societies do not have this norm, and I didn't think this needed to be said.

Still I still maintain that you seem to be saying that assassins should be feared for their coded abilties, and I think this is something that I should argue with.  Most normal people will rarely do anything deserving an assassin's attention, and thus would have little fear of receiving such attention.  Most Zalanthans also don't know that code dictates their lives.

[Yang]

The documentation for the game makes broad sweeping statements all the time.  We all know that there are exceptions and assuming that I am stating this as a hard and fast rule to which there are no exceptions is silly.

It is the cultural norm, not in some, but a majority of societies.  Those societies that have this norm are also some of the most populace, like Tuluk and Allanak.  Some societies do not have this norm, and I didn't think this needed to be said.

Still I still maintain that you seem to be saying that assassins should be feared for their coded abilties, and I think this is something that I should argue with.  Most normal people will rarely do anything deserving an assassin's attention, and thus would have little fear of receiving such attention.  Most Zalanthans also don't know that code dictates their lives. ;)

The fallacy of your argument is that the people I am describing as being as fearsome or more so in whatever instances -are NOT the norm-, because they have brought their perhaps hundred day characters into an epic or legendary position. So I think you misunderstood me, and again, your argument doesn't make sense at all in that light, I'm afraid. But if you still want to derail this post from the obvious and original topic, be my guest.[/b]

[Rindan]

Yang, becoming a skilled assassin certainly something that is hard to achieve and takes a great deal of practice and planning.  That said, your entire post  ignores the far more basic question beyond "are assassins powerful" or "how do you assassinate someone".  The basic question that was asked and wasn't answered is "how do you train backstab in a way that is realistic".  This isn't some philosophical question; this is a real question.  

If your goal is to play a "real" assassin, what is the "right" way to train?  Assassins DO train.  No one in their right mind is going to pick up a knife for the first time and try and stab someone.  So, how do you train this one skill?  I have seen four answers as to how you train without coded sparring, if someone else has a concrete answer, please do add it.

1)  Any way you can.  It is okay to wander into the 'rinth and whack some poor vagrant on the back to learn how to better kill another person.  Wandering into the 'rinth once a week and seeing if you can kill someone is an a-okay way to go about learning how to be an assassin.

2)  Contrive reasons to use backstab and learn that way.  This means that you might join the Byn or Kurac and go out on patrols so you can backstab Gith and scrabs.  You might start your life as a "hunter" who backstabs Carru and anything else with a pulse.

3)  Only use backstab when you would realistically use it.  Only make the attempt to backstab when you truly and honestly mean to murder someone and have a good reason to do it.  If you are an assassin for hire, this means that you would only make a backstab attempt when paid.  If you only have 5 contracts in your life, then you will only ever try backstabbing 5 times in your life.

4)  RP the training, cross your fingers, and hope that the imms give you a skill boost.  RP practicing technique on partners and power on dummies.  Break the components of a good backstab up into things you can train without harming a human and RP it out.  Don't go looking for reasons to backstab things.  Don't go hunting scrab or join the Byn just to try and slam a dagger between a scrab's spin.

If someone can offer up an alternative to those 4, please do post.  Those are the only 4 I have ever seen and I find them all rather unsatisfying.  I personally think that only the 4th option makes any real sense.

[Pantoufle]

Option 3 may as well not be listed at all, because a) it will never improve and b) it will be such a poor skill at that level that you'll never be able to get it to work when you do come upon one of your "rare contracts".

Also, with respect, I think enough players on this thread have indicated that they don't want to have to rely on the staff for a skill boost.  I don't need the imms to help out when I want my contact skill to go up - I just use it enough times.  So too should it work with backstab and any other skill.  Moreover, you can be sure that the staff won't give you a significant boost no matter how much RP you invest into it.  You're also very likely never going to "max out" the skill this way either (let alone achieve a decent level).  That, in my opinion, rules out option 4 as well.

A lot of aspects of hunting in the game in no way parallel the realities of actual hunting (even with animals comparable to real world animals).  Instead, you're using coded tricks to succeed.  The same can be said of learning languages and many other parts of the game.  I don't get where this inexorable fixation with backstab comes from.  It's a skill, yes people want to learn it and get better at it, no it shouldn't be an easy task to achieve.  But it's not like the methods currently employed to get better at backstab are any more far fetched or unrealistic than those used to raise other skills.

[Tisiphone]

I like the fourth option best myself, since the others have their individual IC flaws. Namely:

1) Whacking people in the 'rinth isn't a 'controlled environment'. People in training have those, so that they can learn, not die. 'rinthers might be good subjects, but not in their native conditions, they'll kill you soon enough. (Plus it just seems wrong - not from a viewpoint sympathizing with the people, but even from the viewpoint of an amoral killer - it doesn't teach like it should.) You might do it a few times, as a real-world test, eg, see if you can get in, backstab someone, and get out without being seen or caught, but the entire idea is way too dangerous for it to be a viable training option IG. (Assassins don't want to risk dying more than anyone else.)

2. Killing beasts does not teach you how to kill humanoids. The points of striking and weakness are different.

3. Backstabbing only on the job isn't training, that's doing. Distinction being, if you only tried to learn how to drive a car when you needed to go down the highway, and never got behind the wheel otherwise.

That said, I think I might have a slightly viable fourth option.

Join an organization of some sort.

I could see, especially in Tuluk, small organizations for the training of assassins. After all, up there disappearances are part of the culture, and neither the templars nor the nobles want to run the risk of hiring an incompetent. Perhaps the fee for the training could be something along the lines of a quota of jobs ("I'll teach you how, then you kill Lady Winrothol, Lord Tenneshi, and that annoying bard they both patronize") using dregs and convicts as guinea pigs. Some of the disappeared people could even be thrown in the pens to be used as training dummies. Plus, one could use corpses for some applications, such as showing anatomy, and there could even be games where a particularly sensitive convict is set loose, but the assasins are set on his heels (with prizes for the winner!).

Down south, that'd be harder, but I could see setting up such a structure within, say, The Guild or even one of the Houses (I have no IC knowledge about any of those mentioned organizations, so this is just conjecture) using captured 'rinthers or unsatisfactory arena convicts or even slaves.

Of course, what I just mentioned would require some enterprising players to set them up.

[jstorrie]

I favour a little of two (in the sense that you're training being sneaky and ambushing things), a lot of three, a dash of four and Tisiphone's suggestion - but I don't think I need to stamp out another paragraph about how I think option one is pretty ridiculous.

[Cyrian20]

1. One may seem wrong, but I know for 100% fact that a lot of the schools I have trained with will have new but quickly rising students get in a street fight so they know if they freeze up when it isn't training. So while I would word it different, one is a viable option that I see absolutely nothing wrong with.

2. It could be a different backstab, I once had an equivalent skill with no sneak or hide skills so I rp'd it as my super ninja speedy strike with one character and a martial technique with another. So while some argue this is again viable if you aren't role-playing it as your character comparing the scrab to a human (the gith should be great practice though)

3. This one is great, in fact out of the handful of truly dangerous assassins I have seen , or one of them I even played, that were truly dangerous; nearly all trained this way.

4. You can do more then cross your fingers, you can log and send it in and wait (I waited ten days before but got a nice bonus -including- props for the stuff I did during those ten days so I wouldn't have to do it again)

[jmordetsky]

2 and 3 are your practical ways to go. But don't discount handling people in the alleys if it's IC. It's more ic for you do so, then it is for you to hunt if your a city elf or something.

I still don't love backstabbing animals, but I recently found a spear that allows backstab. Sooooo...I may stand corrected on that front.

Four is great if thats your thing, but it's certainly not definite. Solo RP is like masterbation. It's fun for while, but after a while you'll want the real thing. And if you wanted to RP all your skills, you could just find a mush to play.

[Clearsighted]

Noone is going to gain any reasonable proficiency backstabbing NPCs in the 'rinth. That's probably how most assassins die horrible deaths before getting past their first or second day.

If someone does manage it in the 'rinth, more power to em. They clearly surmounted incredible odds. Staff keeps a close eye on that kind of stuff anyways.

I've never once been in an even remotely shady situation where there wasn't a staffer paying attention and watching. So I can't imagine anyone not only surviving, but getting away with practicing backstab in an unrealistic manner. So if someone has the sand to hunt down super-powered 'rinthers...Good for em. 10 day warriors can get slaughtered by some stuff in there.

Not saying it's a good thing to go in there and go hogwild without IC motives. But that's the case for everything.

But it would seem to me that those who do are basically suiciding themselves anyways. There's noone in the 'rinth building a meat-eating super assassin from day one, backstabbing 10 people a day. They try it once or twice then get mercilessly slaughtered while wailing piteously.

The only time I can see the 'rinth being a good hunting ground is when an Assassin is approaching the 15 day mark. And by then...Well. You're not going to get away with jack shit even if a 2 day'r would.

So really. Just use it in the course of normal work, or send in logs to the staffer who handles requests for independent PCs. There used to be someone specific who did.  That's what I would do.

[Cyrian20]

Four is great if thats your thing, but it's certainly not definite. Solo RP is like masterbation. It's fun for while, but after a while you'll want the real thing. And if you wanted to RP all your skills, you could just find a mush to play.

It is not power solo-role-play, it is simply (made up scenario) I usually login about 15-30 minutes before the rest of my byn unit so I solo role-play with a group of mercs and practice takedowns, locks, and chokes (subdue). Then you ask the staff for a bonus to subdue after you do it for a while. What else would you do with the time anyways?