On training backstab

[spawnloser]

As many have said, backstab is a skill that is difficult to train.  As many have said, find a way to train it that doesn't involve 'practicing murdering' your sparring partner.  People have listed ways to accomplish this, and you have to simply pick one and do it instead of say that you don't want to.

I don't want to see any command that is a practice backstab.  I think it will make assassins, which shouldn't be a dime a dozen, more like warriors, which should be.

[Forty Winks]

Bleh, I'm strongly against having any 'non-lethal' backstab, and even more so on 'sparring' backstab as some people mentioned. It's a killing move, not like kick or bash. Because of its potential, it's dangerous to both the victim and yourself if you attempt to practice it without the intention of killing. It's like practicing shooting a basketball without the intention of making it in the basket.

As a way of improving it, what better way than actually making baskets? Backstab shouldn't be the -primary- tool an assassin uses to accomplish their work, but in time, because it -is- a tool used in the profession, it'll get better. Don't worry so much about getting backstab to be a OHK, and instead focus on the roleplay and the experience of each assignment and attempt at accomplishing your jobs. Yeah, it'll be tough and time-consuming, but what good thing in life doesn't require hard work?

[ThirdEye]

As I said, merely throwing out ideas. I would rather not have it in either, come to think of it, backstab is fine as it is.

[jmordetsky]

The only way to train backstab is to try and kill people.

And yes, you have to try and kill a lot of people.

And yes, it is okay for you to go into the rinth to kill random alley folk to do this.

Just, be aware of the consequences.

[jstorrie]

It is only okay for your PC to go into the rinth to kill random alley folk if he has a decent reason to do so. If your PC's reason is "I want to be able to backstab really well," be fully aware that your character is an idiot, because this is an exceptionally idiotic motivation. Not that it's against the rules to play a moron, but if it's not what you had in mind, maybe reconsider your backstabbing plans.

[jmordetsky]

It is only okay for your PC to go into the rinth to kill random alley folk if he has a decent reason to do so. If your PC's reason is "I want to be able to backstab really well," be fully aware that your character is an idiot, because this is an exceptionally idiotic motivation. Not that it's against the rules to play a moron, but if it's not what you had in mind, maybe reconsider your backstabbing plans.

I completely disagree. If the only way codedly you will ever become a reasonably adept killer is to kill, and if you want to be a reasonably adept killer for whatever IC or super-twink motivation you may have, then your only reasonable course of action is to attempt to kill.

You have three choices for such, a) A lawless area in the city b) A law enforced area in the city c) The desert

Depending on what the reasoning is, and what level of danger your confortable with, you'll make a choice you'll need to live with.   And you wouldn't an be idiot for making it, simply because there is no other option.


Edit to add:

Just a point here, it is not "wrong" to want to become good at a given skill. Training to be an assassin is no different the bynners training to be good fighters, or mages focusing their energies to become more powerful.

Unfortunately, backstab is powerful skill, and one that carries a taboo with it because it's primary use is to deal out death in a none to pleasant way. Because it's used to kill, there is only one way to practice it. Playing "tag" on your fried in an apartment, practicing at sparring sessions are all *unacceptable* because using backstab is a clear attempt to cause near fatal damage to another individual.

However, so is Archery.

You're not doing new players a service by making them feel like twinks for inquiring on how to get better at something in the the game. It is not "wrong" to practive backstab, it simply needs to be contained to realistic settings.

[spawnloser]

Joe's right.  If your friend would be comfortable with you shooting a bow at him from 30 paces, he should be fine with you practicing at murdering him.  If he wouldn't be happy with you shooting a bow at him, he shouldn't be happy with you trying to kill him.  It's that simple.

Also, I don't think he was suggesting that people go on murder sprees.  He was saying that if you want to become a good murderer, you have to practice being a murderer.  To that end, if you're willing to live with the consequences of being a murderer, go kill people.  It is, of course, easier to do this in lawless areas, but some lawless areas have their own drawbacks...like the 'Rinth.  People may very well notice you coming in every week or so to randomly murder someone for practice, and they may react to you based on these actions of yours.

The key here is to understand the repurcussions.  When you get good at backstab, when using the skill, you have the potential of outright killing someone.  Are you sure you want to let someone stab you, even with a pen, if you have an inkling that the one stab they inflict on you may cause enough damage to permanently disable, maim or simply kill you?

[Clearsighted]

The 'rinth is pretty suicidal these days for anyone to be 'practicing' in, who hasn't already nearly mastered most fighting skills aside from backstab.

[jmordetsky]

Joe's right.  If your friend would be comfortable with you shooting a bow at him from 30 paces, he should be fine with you practicing at murdering him.  If he wouldn't be happy with you shooting a bow at him, he shouldn't be happy with you trying to kill him.  It's that simple.

Also, I don't think he was suggesting that people go on murder sprees.  He was saying that if you want to become a good murderer, you have to practice being a murderer.  To that end, if you're willing to live with the consequences of being a murderer, go kill people.  It is, of course, easier to do this in lawless areas, but some lawless areas have their own drawbacks...like the 'Rinth.  People may very well notice you coming in every week or so to randomly murder someone for practice, and they may react to you based on these actions of yours.

The key here is to understand the repurcussions.  When you get good at backstab, when using the skill, you have the potential of outright killing someone.  Are you sure you want to let someone stab you, even with a pen, if you have an inkling that the one stab they inflict on you may cause enough damage to permanently disable, maim or simply kill you?

Thanks. Yes that is what I'm trying to say.

The 'rinth is pretty suicidal these days for anyone to be 'practicing' in, who hasn't already nearly mastered most fighting skills aside from backstab.

Exactly. The rinth is so policed by PCs and Imms that if you want to practice Backstabbing every NPC you can find you will be sure that eventually get noticed and when you do, there are dire consequences.

I would wager to say that spam training backstab assassins in the rinth are at a MUCH higher risk then spam hunters.

The staff has been very clear on how *not* to train backstab. And as a result how to train backstab is very obvious. However, it comes with serious repercussions.

Vanth's quote still holds abundantly true. There are many skills in game that are difficult to train. Backstab is one of them.

Edit:

That being said though, I feel that the training of throw and archery though the use of a sparring dummy should be possible in the combat clans. I would like to see the use of sap and backstab allowed via training weapons, but only if the progress via this method was severely hindered.

IE a command like "flank" that could possibly raise an assassins ability to backstab in very tiny increments would be cool.

That also being said, there are other much more important things to be done, and with that being the case, and teh danger backstab potentially poses the current rules in place are sufficient.

[ThirdEye]

Personally, I don't think it is wrong (if your a dirt poor 'rinther) to kill others in the 'rinth. Well, killing maybe, but using backstab to get by not so much.

backstab guy
fight ensues
guy crumples to the ground
em greedily crouches down beside ~guy, tugging various garments from ^guy body, before straightening and slipping away into the night.

And as said above, the IC consequences are nasty. Be aware.

Just a noobtwinks point of view on it though.

[Tisiphone]

I'm not sure if this has been said already, but I haven't seen it.

I agree that backstabbing is striking at the vitals. I also agree that this can be practiced in sparring, as martial artists practice vital strikes at higher levels of training all the time.

However, I think a backstab is not -just- a strike to the vitals. The important difference that makes it backstabbing is doing it By Surprise, a state which cannot be reached with a prepared sparring partner.

Now, I realize that this only works as a half-reason why currently we cannot train backstabbing in sparring, because it does encompass vital strikes. However, I feel that when we combine this with the general social stigma (how do you think people even in Tuluk act when someone walks in and says, "Hi, I want to be an assassin!" act? I know, I've seen it) against assassins, for rp reasons as well backstabbing is extremely difficult to train.

However, there is the third option, (which works for you HGs out there too, so listen up) as to how to increase sparring or backstab skill. Roleplay the sessions, log them, and send them in with a Request for skill increase.

[jstorrie]

I must continue to strenuously disagree that it is reasonable for a PC to decide 'I want to be good at backstabbing!' and that follow that up with 'I will go attempt to kill large numbers of people so I can be good at backstabbing people!' It is absolutely different from practicing casting or crafting in that your character is killing other sentient beings, something even Zalanthans wouldn't do completely flippantly. It's also somewhat different from archery in that most characters don't practice their archery against town residents without provocation, they practice it against beasts or enemy soldiers or (if they're lucky, it seems) targets.

'I want to be good at backstabbing' is an exceedingly out-of-character motivation for a killing spree, one targetting NPCs or otherwise, and severely smacks of powergaming to me.

[Rhyden]

I must continue to strenuously disagree that it is reasonable for a PC to decide 'I want to be good at backstabbing!' and that follow that up with 'I will go attempt to kill large numbers of people so I can be good at backstabbing people!' It is absolutely different from practicing casting or crafting in that your character is killing other sentient beings, something even Zalanthans wouldn't do completely flippantly. It's also somewhat different from archery in that most characters don't practice their archery against town residents without provocation, they practice it against beasts or enemy soldiers or (if they're lucky, it seems) targets.

'I want to be good at backstabbing' is an exceedingly out-of-character motivation for a killing spree, one targetting NPCs or otherwise, and severely smacks of powergaming to me.

Try to think of it in a less coded sense. If a killer wants to be a good killer, they need to kill. Backstab is one option of killing a PC. There's several others. Backstab just happens to be a very lethal way of killing someone. If an archer wants to be good at archery, they're gonna need to shoot stuff.

As was said before, backstab and archery are very similar skills. Is it wrong to backstab NPC people in the rinth? Is it wrong for an archer to mow down NPC beasts? Your backstabber and archer are both killers. They're just hunting down different game. Both archery and backstab can be used on PCs as well and both can be fatal.

But does that make them wrong to use on NPCs? I don't think so. I think the consequences of using these skills on NPCs are realistic and enforced both by PCs and animated NPCs.

And if backstab isn't allowed during sparring, it isn't allowed in a lawless area and it's not allowed to take down beasties in the desert, where the hell is it allowed?

[Cenghiz]

Some of my magickers decide they need to be better in the spell 'fart of doom' and they regularly practice -practice/tavern chatter/cooking/practice some more/cruising a bit in the bazaar/tavern chatter/practice.....- and they become good.. Often, fart of doom is as dangerous as backstab....
.......
Maybe there should be a way to practice backstab.. I never play assassins and I have no idea how too many blood-clad assassins will affect the game, though. Just my two 'sids.

[spawnloser]

Magickers should be scarier than assassins, though.  (shrug)

[Beux]

Magickers should be scarier than assassins, though.  (shrug)

Not because of their skills, necessarily. Macickers should be scary because they are the unknown, they are the mysterious that no one understands. People shouldn't actively fear assassins because they shouldn't expect to be a target (unless they are in a high political position), but assassins are still the trained killers, magickers are not. If you're going to fear them, fear assassins because of the certain death they bring, fear magickers because of the unknown.

With the few magicker exceptions, assassins should, imo, be the better trained killers.

[Ghost]

Magickers are already scarier in my opinion.  Finding an assassin skilled enough to actually kill someone is slim to nil.  Finding a magicker who can kill -almost anybody- is pretty common.

[Nao]

Anyone ever read Pyramids by terry Pratchett?
The guys graduate from the assassins guild without ever having killed anyone. Pteppic knows what he's doing, he's a great assassin, he's just a little squeamish about the killing.

I'm pretty sure that you should be able to practice backstabbing like any other skill, that is without actually trying to kill someone. It's not that hard to decide where to strike and then do it, it seems that our backstab is more of a 'sneak attack' and that's the hard part.

While sparring isn't the right time to catch someone off guard, it's not like every backstab attempt should be a kill attempt.
You can succeed in the 'sneaking up' , aim to hit at the right spot and still stop the blow.
You guys make it sound like killing or seriously wounding someone with one stab is really hard. It's not. People get seriously wounded from being stabbed all the time. It's harder to find a way to put a knife into someone without doing some serious damage (that would likely kill the person without medical attention) than not to cause serious harm.
Think about it. A deep stab to the neck is more than dangerous. then there's lungs, intestines - all things that make you die VERY easily. Even on arms and legs you aren't safe, there's huge arteries and all that.

Granted, some things won't kill you instantly but it might take some time.

[jstorrie]

If you're going to fear them, fear assassins because of the certain death they bring, fear magickers because of the unknown.

Or fear them because significant portions of the playerbase seem to think it's realistic for everyone to randomly murder a hundred or two people just to get good at stabbing.

[jmordetsky]

Anyone ever read Pyramids by terry Pratchett?
The guys graduate from the assassins guild without ever having killed anyone. Pteppic knows what he's doing, he's a great assassin, he's just a little squeamish about the killing.

I'm pretty sure that you should be able to practice backstabbing like any other skill, that is without actually trying to kill someone. It's not that hard to decide where to strike and then do it, it seems that our backstab is more of a 'sneak attack' and that's the hard part.

While sparring isn't the right time to catch someone off guard, it's not like every backstab attempt should be a kill attempt.
You can succeed in the 'sneaking up' , aim to hit at the right spot and still stop the blow.
You guys make it sound like killing or seriously wounding someone with one stab is really hard. It's not. People get seriously wounded from being stabbed all the time. It's harder to find a way to put a knife into someone without doing some serious damage (that would likely kill the person without medical attention) than not to cause serious harm.
Think about it. A deep stab to the neck is more than dangerous. then there's lungs, intestines - all things that make you die VERY easily. Even on arms and legs you aren't safe, there's huge arteries and all that.

Granted, some things won't kill you instantly but it might take some time.

I agree with this to some extent. My friend Denis is skilled marshal artist. I'm pretty sure the shit he studies in his s3cr3t basement dojo (or whatever they call it in kungfu) is pretty lethal. He's showed me one or two things, and I was like..ugh....that's pretty nasty.

Anyhow, he didn't learn it by killing people (i hope). He learned it by practicing with other students.  That being said, he learned how to strike vital organs, not sneak up on people in the dark and cut their throats. Without actually asking Denis to find someone on the streets to kill, there's no way of actually knowing if Denis is good killer or not.

It is my opinion, that in the real world you can study to be an assassin without actually having to kill. But you will not know if your training has allowed you to kill until you try.

The skill of "backstab" is misleading. You're not getting good at literally stabbing someone in the back. What you are getting good at, is the art of striking someone in a vital place with a small sharp object, without them realizing that were going to strike them. Or, striking them while they are focusing on something else. Sap is the same skill, but using a blunt object. It's subterfuge, it's trickery and it's not easily trained without a "real" experience.

You can however, train things like "where" to strike, or how to strike or what weapon to use, or becoming skilled with said weapon. In my opinion these things are *almost* all covered by the skills that support backstab. Like hide, sneak, slight of hand and piercing weapons.  I personally would like one day that for there to be a way to practice "strikeing vitals" and thus increase backstab. But it would need a separate command, like the nil target available to mages, that allowed gains in small increments to accommodate for the lack of real world application.

As it stands now, without a code change, if you want to be a trained assassin, first train these skills so you can survive an attempt on someone. But after that, you have to try and take someones life. It's really that simple. There are no other "creative" ways to become a better killer. You have to  study to kill, and then practice killing.

Again:  Practicing on your friend. Practicing on gurth. Practicing with a sparring weapon. Practicing on a sparring dummy. Practicing on jozhal. Practicing on your mount. All twinky.

Backstabbing a humanoid PC or NPC to see if you can rob and to take his or shit and then dealing with whatever IC consequences are the result of that. Not Twinky.

Do not confuse n00bs by telling them they are twinks for using backstab in a realistic setting. They aren't. Not more then hunter firing an arrow at a jozhal to get good at archery is a twink.

Now, backstabbing all day and night? Well, then you are a twink and the staff will hopefully handle you. This goes for any skill, backstab is not in a special "it's unrealistic to practice me bucket". If you drive a wagon all day and all night you're a pilot twink. If you spar all day and all night, your a combat twink.

[Delirium]

Use backstab when you intend to kill.

Kill only when you have a real reason to do so.

That simple.

Skill Backstab     (Combat)

This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent. The victim of a backstab is not necessarily 'stabbed in the back'-- the attack could be from any direction. If your character successfully backstabs someone, the target has been 'hit in a vital location,' and will be badly injured, the severity of the injury depending on your character's backstab skill level.

Yes, it will take long-term planning and patience to be a skilled assassin.

[Moofassa]

You mean, it will take a long time to be skilled at backstab.

Assassin's and backstab are only loosely related. (outside of it being given to assassins in their skillset)

[Dalmeth]

One time, my character was sitting out on the plains, resting after taking down a duskhorn, and all of a sudden, I get an emote mentioning some desert elf striking my character behind the ear.  Surprisingly, he missed his first attack.  Goes to show you what happens when you call your shots, eh?

It's then I realized that being good at hide and sneak doesn't mean you can sneak up right to some and gut them superspy-style.  This is where backstab comes in.  It's not simply striking vital organs, that's what every combatant in the Known World tries to do.  It's also the approach, the darting in past your target's defenses.  In that mindset, sparring and even hunting with backstab makes perfect sense, and please, don't tell me any of you would actually stoop so low as to take away one of an assassin's few combat skills while hunting.

[jstorrie]

Backstabbing a humanoid PC or NPC to see if you can rob and to take his or shit and then dealing with whatever IC consequences are the result of that. Not Twinky.

If your reason for staging the robbing in the first place is just to practice backstab, though, then yes, it is absolutely powergaming. Claiming afterwards that 'oh I was just robbing guys' is just rationalization. You can rob PCs or NPCs perfectly well without gutting them on the street.

And as you've said, a large part of a backstab or sap attempt is keeping your cool and moving in silently without losing the element of surprise. That can be practiced just fine while hunting or fighting off gith or whatever.

Backstab is notably different than archery or sparring in that an average PC may have a rational opportunity to shoot or spar every day. I would go as far as to say, however, that even the most exceptional PC ought not to be killing several other people every day. I can see very few possible roles or concepts where regular backstab 'practice' against other city-dwellers is necessary or even plausible.

[jstorrie]

The documentation suggests a 'backstab' has three components.

1) getting the drop on your opponent (if you are good)
2) striking your opponent critically in that moment of surprise (if you are very good)
3) doing the kill without being detected (if you are exceptionally good)

I think these definitely preclude backstabbing during sparring. They don't necessarily preclude backstabbing while hunting.