On training backstab

[jmordetsky]

If your reason for staging the robbing in the first place is just to practice backstab, though, then yes, it is absolutely powergaming. Claiming afterwards that 'oh I was just robbing guys' is just rationalization. You can rob PCs or NPCs perfectly well without gutting them on the street.

Please feel free to discuss how an assassin without steal goes about robbing npcs with out incapacitating them. As for powergaming, if an archer goes hunting everyday because he's a "hunter" while under the pretense of really just wanting to practice "archery" then he's as twinky as the backstabber who does the same. You're clouding the conversation with hard line nonsense we're all aware of. As long as the actions by either are realistic, rational and IC, it's fine. IE we shouldn't be seeing Tor nobles crawling the alley's for backstab victims. But I would be surprised to see an eastside skinny doing so, and either should you.

Backstab is notably different than archery or sparring in that an average PC may have a rational opportunity to shoot or spar every day. I would go as far as to say, however, that even the most exceptional PC ought not to be killing several other people every day. I can see very few possible roles or concepts where regular backstab 'practice' against other city-dwellers is necessary or even plausible.

From a pure code perspective a hunter in a tuluk and criminal in the rinth make their livings in very similar ways. I don't see an issue with RPing "gangs" or "gang members" who make their livings killing NPCs. In fact it's been discussed and condoned by the staff to kill the same NPCs (human or animal) as long as it's done in a realistic fashion. Ie not right after repop and not in giant ridiculous sprees. Muggers could easily be mugging per one person per few days and using backstab to do so. As stated before they have a lot more ic consequences to deal with but it's no different from hunter a we just discussed above.

The documentation suggests a 'backstab' has three components.

1) getting the drop on your opponent (if you are good)
2) striking your opponent critically in that moment of surprise (if you are very good)
3) doing the kill without being detected (if you are exceptionally good)

I think these definitely preclude backstabbing during sparring. They don't necessarily preclude backstabbing while hunting.

If we allowed backstabbing with spears, and it was considered an ambush or a trap, I'd be inclined to agree. However, next time you train as a ninja, and then take out a moose with a hunting knife by jumping out from behind a tree and placing it into it's jugular, I'll start to consider backstabbing a viable hunting option. I feel the same way about hunting with backstab as I do about hunting with a battle axe or claymore.

Yea, the code lets you do it, but it's not realistic and your probably jsut tyring to up your skills. That said, an outdoor equivalent to backstab that used hunting weapons and was meant for ambushing a person or an animal would be cool.

The reason backstab is limited to short stabbing weapons is because it's normally a close range stealth attack, which I don't think translates into hunting.

It's not a staff opinion obviously, but I'm not in love with the idea of backstabbing anything that isn't humanoid.

[jstorrie]

Is it rational to risk your life trying to backstab some dirt-poor Rinther? Would they even have anything worth taking? It seems like a mighty poor way to stay alive.

If a player wants to play a thug and mug people, I would heartily recommend the thug subclass which has skills geared for that purpose.

[Clearsighted]

If a player wants to play a thug and mug people, I would heartily recommend the thug subclass which has skills geared for that purpose.

I've heard the sap that the thug subclass gets is pretty worthless compared to the sap the assassin or burglar gets. At least for knocking people out.

[jmordetsky]

Is it rational to risk your life trying to backstab some dirt-poor Rinther? Would they even have anything worth taking? It seems like a mighty poor way to stay alive.

If a player wants to play a thug and mug people, I would heartily recommend the thug subclass which has skills geared for that purpose.

It's completely rational if you live in the rinth and they have even a tad bit more then you. It's zalanthas dude. Not kindergarden.

[Rhyden]

Is it rational to risk your life trying to backstab some dirt-poor Rinther?

If you're a Rinther, you risk your life every day.  Everyone has this 'you or them' insentive. It's completely irrational. That's the Rinth for you.

Would they even have anything worth taking?

They might have a hunk of metal in their pocket, or maybe a hundred sids. Never know until you have them at your mercy, or just flat out kill them, perhaps by using backstab.

It seems like a mighty poor way to stay alive.

Ya, it's the Rinth.

[jstorrie]

I think you're being a bit hyperbolic if you're suggesting anything that doesn't involve murder is 'Kindergarten.'

Even Zalanthans will see some difference between killing an animal and killing a sentient being. There may not be a lot of respect for individual lives but killing should not be something entered into flippantly, especially not for the out of character justification of skill-maxing.

[jmordetsky]

The rinth is the rinth man. There are places in the rinth that you *will* get paid *for* the killing someone.

Not their stuff, not their weapons...but them indiscrimitely killed. Not sure if you've played there much, but it's some pretty cold shit.

[ThirdEye]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17509&highlight=backstab

Just a note: My previous post was in thoughts of this.

[spawnloser]

Something containing information about certain guilds branching certain skills.

Hey, man...would you mind editting the IC info out of your post?  Not everyone knows who branches that skill.

[Cenghiz]

Sorry about double post.. This one's removed, the post's on the other page.

[Cenghiz]

Also late in their careers, assassins can learn how to effectively knock out an opponent from behind with a sharp blow to the head and take them elsewhere for committing their dirty work.

Later on in their careers, pickpockets can learn how to effectively use a sap and knock their mark unconscious for removal of larger items, as well as silencing guards.

No info not available in the helpfiles given by clearsighted's comment.. About if thug's sapping is inferior or not? It's his thought as he said: It can be right or wrong.

[Clearsighted]

Also late in their careers, assassins can learn how to effectively knock out an opponent from behind with a sharp blow to the head and take them elsewhere for committing their dirty work.

Later on in their careers, pickpockets can learn how to effectively use a sap and knock their mark unconscious for removal of larger items, as well as silencing guards.

No info not available in the helpfiles given by clearsighted's comment.. About if thug's sapping is inferior or not? It's his thought as he said: It can be right or wrong.

Indeed...the entire contents of my post came from either the help files or this board from searching on 'sap'.

[Rindan]

Personally, I think the whole backstabbing issue is silly and always has been silly.  Backstabbing is easy.  Give me a frigging knife and I will show you how to kill another human in one hit.  Just sink the knife some where other then the arms and legs.  If they don't see the attack coming and don't defend, you will probably kill them  No, you don't need god like knowledge of anatomy or need to hit some secret spot that carries a person's chi.  Sliding a half meter long knife into just about any unarmored part on the human body is – if not lethal, going to put that person out of any future fights for a good long time.  Take a big old obsidian slab, and shove it through someone's neck and they are screwed.  Being an assassin is not striking a magical point on the body.

The challenge in being an assassin is getting close enough to land such a strike and bringing that blow in with full force so you can slide it in nice and deep.  There is also a limited aiming element in that you need to get it past any armor.  This is something that is trivial to train on another human.  Simply have a person sit in a seat with their back to the door.  Try and sneak into the room and tap them on the back.  If you can do that, you just killed them.  If they hear you enter or hear you draw and raise your weapon, then you failed.  You can even land a strike with a little force if you simply throw some armor over the spot you intend to hit.  If you can touch someone's neck with an obsidian dagger without them defending against the blow, you can kill them.

There are a lot of stupid ways to train to be an assassin.  With any sort of coded training being out, these stupid ways are the ways that people tend to in my experience (but who knows what I have missed).   You can take your silk clad assassin out into the desert and kill stuff.  You can go on patrols with organizations that do that sort of thing and backstab stuff.  You can act like a bad 'rinth NPC and back stab a few hundred people.  These are all methods that people have used and tend to be the most common way of doing it.

Personally, I think that all the 'learn by doing' methods are insane.  I doubt many feudal Japanese ninjas got awesome by murdering people on the street or patrolling for wolves and bandits to murder in the forest.  You learn by practice and commit the REAL act once or twice in your life.  A person who has made 5 REAL backstabbing attempts in his entire life should be considered a grizzly old veteran assassin.

So, how do you learn in game without resorting to the silliness of making hundreds of assassination attempts in your life or assassinating wolves (scrabs) and bandits (gith) while still following the game rules?  

If you want to play a REAL assassin, a person who trains their whole life for that one moment of truth and doesn't make wolf and bandit murdering apart of everyday life, I would suggest simply practicing through emoting.  Bonus points if you can find a friend to do it with.  Are you SOL if the imms never watch you and increase your skills?  Yup.  But you really shouldn't be playing to become a murdering machine to begin with.  If you don't enjoy the process with a character, you are probably wasting your time.

If you can find one friend, I could see some good times to be had in training assassins.  Imagine the sort of assassin games you could play with a partner.  You could take turns stalking each other through the city.  You could play glorified games of hide and go seek where the goal is to interrupt your buddy's daily business by poking him on the sweet spot of his neck without him noticing.  Hell, you could make training to be an assassin a full time job where one of you is always trying to stalk the other and mockingly land that killing blow where you shove a sharp shard of obsidian through his neck.  In addition to daily games,  you could also have more formal training where one person turns his back to the door and the other tried to sneak into the room as quietly as possible and land a blow without them hearing it.  When you are alone, you could practice stalking random people, like a beautiful man or woman (easy cover story if someone notices your sketchy behavior).  You could set up a simply dummy with an old piece of armor and practicing full forced swings on it to perfect your power and speed.

I see a lot of ways to train both alone and with a partner.  Sure, you still have to live with the "no coded backstabbing rule", but if you put on a good enough show about it, I imagine the imms will notice.  Keep them up to date with what you are doing, and hopefully when you finally go to use that backstab skill for real you will knock someone's head off.

[jmordetsky]

If you want to play a REAL assassin, a person who trains their whole life for that one moment of truth and doesn't make wolf and bandit murdering apart of everyday life, I would suggest simply practicing through emoting.  

I agree with your entire post up until this point. Yes, it's silly, but without a coded alternative you're not left with much else. Emote training, personally I don't agree with, and I think it's poor advice to a new player. It overloads the staff and disheartens them if they don't get noticed.

[Pantoufle]

Almost every method of learning a skill in this game -- any skill -- is silly and unrealistic.  Where does this obsessive compulsiveness towards the backstab skill come from?

Do you honestly think the way to learn how to weave baskets is by ruining 1,000 vines over and over until some day you can do it without failing?

Do you honestly think the way to learn languages is by listening to a bunch of garble over and over until -- voila -- you suddenly can speak it?  And on that note, anyone who is bilingual can confirm that the language code is entirely unrealistic and in no way represents true language acquisition.

You can apply this argument to almost any single skill.

It's a game.  More often than not one must work around the code in order to make what they are doing half-way plausible.  But if the code only lets me improve my skill by doing a certain set of activities, well then I'm sorry, you can bet I'll be doing that "certain set of activities" and, yes, I'll be doing it for the sole purpose of improving my skills.

It's called suspension of disbelief.  And if you've got a problem with how backstab is roleplayed out, you may as well have a problem with how every other skill is learned too.

[jstorrie]

I think you're completely missing the point if you think the aim of Armageddon is to increase your PCs skills, whether basket-weaving or backstabbing.

[jmordetsky]

He's not missing the point.  Arm without skills is a Mush. The reason Arm rocks is because of coded skills mixed with RP.  Heaven forbid you acknowledge that and the RP nazi's nail you to a cross.

There is nothing wrong with ICly and OCly trying to up your skills. Even backstab.

And if you've ever RPed with Pantoufle you'd know he's very much not missing the point on RP, at all.

[spawnloser]

Okay, the guild helpfiles say something...but do people go around listing which subguilds get which skills, even though the helpfiles tell you which ones, but not in list form?  I don't think that we should be telling people who gets what in uncertain terms.  Let people read stuff and figure out what they figure out (in this regard) on their own.

[Gazarsgo]

I think you're completely missing the point if you think the aim of Armageddon is to increase your PCs skills, whether basket-weaving or backstabbing.

The point of Armageddon is to twink out all those phat lewt skills that don't show up on your skill list, like deception and subterfuge and conniving.  They're all under the role-playing tree.

[ThirdEye]

Well, if you want to train backstab by doing nothing but emotes then thats cool. But I'm not going to do it...I'll send logs into the staff of practicing techniques etc, but if there is an IC reason to either murder, or mug someone, then I will also do that. Using the coded skill.

[Nao]

Do you honestly think the way to learn how to weave baskets is by ruining 1,000 vines over and over until some day you can do it without failing?

Do you honestly think the way to learn languages is by listening to a bunch of garble over and over until -- voila -- you suddenly can speak it?  And on that note, anyone who is bilingual can confirm that the language code is entirely unrealistic and in no way represents true language acquisition.

Those are WAY, WAY more plausible than backstab.

It is very possible to learn a language from listening and using it. It's also the most effective way once you've grasped the basics. The way I improved my english from 'barely able to put together a few sentences' went exactly like this. The best way to improve your vocabulary is reading or talking that language you want to learn. Fuck fancy grammar rules, they're something that might help you if you're just starting (which would be one or two years in school, much less when you're permanently exposed to the language), you don't need them anymore past that phase.
The language code is unrealistic because it scrambles letters instead of grammar and the like, but that seems to be the only way to code it and the effect is the same - if someone is less skilled in a language, it's harder to communicate with them via that language.

The same for basketweaving - it's definitely possible to learn this by trial and error if you don'Ät have a teacher. Got a teacher? Great, let them use the teach command and you don't have to figure out the basics all by yourself and just need to practice before you produce something that actually looks like a basket and not like some distant relative of a basket born in tchernobyl.

[Pale Horse]

On the subject of learning languages, I agree with Nao.  To effectivly learn a language, you need the basics, then you need constant exposure to that language, which means listening..listening..and more..listening...And at the beginning (be you in Japan, Brazil, or Russia) it's all going to sound like gibberish (a.k.a Greek) until just one day, it snaps together in your head and you start making sense of what you're hearing...

At least, it was this way in my experience.  I spent two months getting the basics of Portugese pounded into my head, then moved to Portugal and had to live with the language all around me, 24/7.  About 3 months or so later, almost litteraly over night, I could actualy understand that these strange mouth-noises that people were useing was a language and that I understood it!  Sure it took a couple more months to fine tune and pick up more vocab. and learn the more annoying grammer rules, but about 5 to 6 months, I was fluent.

[jstorrie]

He's not missing the point.  Arm without skills is a Mush. The reason Arm rocks is because of coded skills mixed with RP.  Heaven forbid you acknowledge that and the RP nazi's nail you to a cross.

There is nothing wrong with ICly and OCly trying to up your skills. Even backstab.

No. The hard-coded aspect of skills going up is there so that if your character lives a life in whch he or she would be learning things, that can be reflected statistically. You are looking at this backwards. If in the course of a character's activities he gets better at something, that is a nice little bonus. You should not turn things the other way around and tailor a character's life specifically to increase his skills. That is pretty cut and dried powergaming.

My point is that people 'hunting in the Rinth,' for example, are tailoring their characters' lives to gain an OOC benefit (skill-ups) when really they should just be letting their PCs live whatever lives are reasonable and letting the skill points fall where they may.

[jmordetsky]

He's not missing the point.  Arm without skills is a Mush. The reason Arm rocks is because of coded skills mixed with RP.  Heaven forbid you acknowledge that and the RP nazi's nail you to a cross.

There is nothing wrong with ICly and OCly trying to up your skills. Even backstab.

No. The hard-coded aspect of skills going up is there so that if your character lives a life in whch he or she would be learning things, that can be reflected statistically. You are looking at this backwards. If in the course of a character's activities he gets better at something, that is a nice little bonus. You should not turn things the other way around and tailor a character's life specifically to increase his skills. That is pretty cut and dried powergaming.

My point is that people 'hunting in the Rinth,' for example, are tailoring their characters' lives to gain an OOC benefit (skill-ups) when really they should just be letting their PCs live whatever lives are reasonable and letting the skill points fall where they may.

Um, no shit. We're not discussing that. We're discussing if backstab can is "a skill that can be used in the course of your character activities."

And no. People hunting in the rinth are not tailoring their lives to gain an OOC benefit. You've obviously not played much there if you think that.

[jstorrie]

I have played quite a bit in the Rinth, thank you.

We are discussing deliberately training backstab. Check the thread title.