Grounded Combat, Kicking.

[FightClub]

Self defense on the ground, by kicking? What do you all think?  I don't see any reason why you would try to put a boot in the neck of some gith trying to body dive on you.

[UnderSeven]

If you can't kick while down, I think it makes sense, because the idea I think being if you are on your back, your opponent has the mobility options, they get to decide where when and how they 'body dive' you.  So it would really be relatively easy to avoid a foot.

[Sokotra]

Good idea.  But then, I've always wanted the combat to be a little more gritty (dirty).  Biting, headbutting, throwing sand in the face, kneeing in the crotch (better have that nut-guard on), pulling hair, poking eyes, etc.

I think I posted an idea years ago about thieves/pickpockets being able throw sand or dirt in someones face in order to let them get away.  Stuff like that would just add a whole new level to combat, if implemented in a simple and realistic way.

I know there's enough work going on with combat right now, but eventually I'd like to see things like this... I'm sure it would take some time to do without causing major problems.

Going along even further with such ideas, it might be cool to see some sort of wrestling take place if combatants got locked in a hardcore struggle.  For example, if the combatants got exhausted or something and ended up where their weapons ended up getting dropped or they were wrestling; maybe a part of the code that says when they end up locked in a death-struggle and exhausted, no larger weapons than a dagger could be used and nothing could be picked up off of the ground unless you wanted to try and dive for that dagger with the chance of letting your enemy get on your back and pin you down.   Maybe certain dirty-moves (headbutting, biting etc.) could only be used if the necessary pre-requisites took place in order for the combatants to be locked in a death-struggle.  

Anyway.. just tossing out some ideas off the top of my head.  But yeah, I think the kicking while down is a good place to start.

[Forty Winks]

Eh, if you ever tried to kick a -soccer- ball when on the ground, you definitely don't get the boost that a kick standing up would. I think similarly, kicking from the ground wouldn't be accurate, nor damaging enough, to be allowed to use the KICK command. As it is, you're already stabbing and slashing with your weapons, and I think that's plenty enough to handle when prone.

[Forty Winks]

Self defense on the ground, by kicking? What do you all think?  I don't see any reason why you would try to put a boot in the neck of some gith trying to body dive on you.

When you're on the ground, how in Krath's name are you suppose to reach up to a gith's neck with a kick? And even if you could, your leg would probably get cut off at the ankle midway against the much more mobile gith. AND that's considering the gith is going to 'body dive' you...which I highly...-highly- doubt would be a smart move...even to a gith when he has a spear or sword to cut you down much more effectively.

[bloodfromstone]

I think it can be done well enough through emoting. I've kicked people while on the ground ICly, though that wasn't exactly how it happened according to the code...

emote juts a heel up at %opponent waist in an attempt to push !opponent back.
st (pushing quickly to his feet)
kick

Or something like that.

[Ktavialt]

Jiu Jitsu on Zalanthas?

[Cyrian20]

Jiu Jitsu on Zalanthas?

Heh I was thinking the same thing, kicks are quite dangerous on the ground. I promise if I am sprawled on my back and I thrust a kick upwards into your jaw it will hurt, it is a proven tactic. That said I don't think it is a biggy since the dmg would need to be lowered extremely, and your better off typing stand and kicking then kicking and staying on the ground longer.

[FightClub]

Mule kick baby, never underestimate it, huzzah.  Yeah kicking from the ground can be pretty rough, the neck thing was not really meant to be taken seriously, but a common application might be for weapons, knees of your enemy, things like that simply buying yourself more time to get ungrounded.

[Gunnerblaster]

Perhaps a ground sweep? When a person is knocked down, would it be unrealistic for another person to try sweep-kick the standing guy's legs out from under him? Perhaps a code such as 'kick leg' would be interesting to have, as far as fighting dirty goes.

Or, for mere shits and giggles, 'kick crotch' would also come into effect. ^^

[Flaming Ocotillo]

If we want to really get serious about this ground kicking thing, we've got analyze how being "grounded" affects combat right now, in Armageddon.

Basically, when you're knocked onto the floor in combat, it's usually because you've been bashed by someone or something, and the code will lag you and keep you grounded for a period of time before you can get up again and perform any command. There's no reason for you to stay grounded in combat if you aren't lagged, as you can just type "stand" and you're no longer at a disadvantage. Being able to kick someone while you're on the floor is suggesting that you be able to get around the lag penalty imposed on your character after being knocked down, which is a pretty powerful move to have (there are no combat moves that currently "negate" lag generated from being knocked down). So.. are you suggesting that there be a move in the game that allows a quick recovery from bash lag along with an offensive move against your opponent? If you're not suggesting a quick recovery from bash lag, then you won't be able to input the move due to the lag associated with bash. There are a lot of things to consider when suggesting putting a new combat move into the game, and how it will fit in with the existing code.

Some MUDs I've played have a skill that gives characters a chance to regain their footing almost immediately after being knocked down, reducing the lag from being bashed. Maybe you're thinking something along the lines of this, with some kind of foot sweeping action going on. Sounds like it would be one of the more powerful reversal moves around, if it were to exist, and probably a difficult enough move to be not widely available to most PCs, even if they were warriors.

[Sokotra]

Being able to kick someone while you're on the floor is suggesting that you be able to get around the lag penalty imposed on your character after being knocked down, which is a pretty powerful move to have (there are no combat moves that currently "negate" lag generated from being knocked down). So.. are you suggesting that there be a move in the game that allows a quick recovery from bash lag along with an offensive move against your opponent?

Or, more simply (or not, depending on the code) there could just be certain moves that are allowed during times which you may be lagged from a bash.  Another option may be to have some sort of initial lag from the bash, then certain moves allowed for a very brief period of time before you are able to stand again.

But yes, either way, some moves may or may not be rather powerful and we wouldn't want them to be put in place without realistic coding/testing etc etc... Time consuming, I'm sure.   You bring up some valid points for discussion and as I said, I'd just suggest the 'lag' code be adjusted itself if necessary.  I think doing something like I mentioned above would pretty much keep the advantage to the 'basher' in place without giving too much of an advantage to the person being 'grounded'.  You would not, of course, want anyone to be able to be an expert at such a thing without lots of practice and actual application of the move.  

How about a headbutt, sand-throw, or any other wrestling/dirty fighting moves?  I suggested the throwing of sand into an opponents eyes be only available to certain sneaky roguish classes and/or subguilds.  I'm not sure we need to give warriors any more special moves, but headbutt doesn't seem to fit any other class.  

Another idea would be to simply put in a "dirty fighting" skill instead of lots of little things like hair-pulling and biting.  In that case, you would just type a certain command and there'd be a chance that you were able to get away with a special move that would be somewhat random, depending on your opponent (obviously hair-pulling would not work on a mul or dwarf) and then, if you succeeded, the move would be executed.

[Gunnerblaster]

Maybe you're thinking something along the lines of this, with some kind of foot sweeping action going on. Sounds like it would be one of the more powerful reversal moves around, if it were to exist, and probably a difficult enough move to be not widely available to most PCs, even if they were warriors.

Thank you for wording that better, for me. But, to say in the least, that's what I was attempting to say. Yes, perhaps a certain type of character could use it, such as an assasin and what-not? Not someone, such as a warrior or ranger [ranger, because they already have a higher advantage -skill wise].

[Quirk]

Another idea would be to simply put in a "dirty fighting" skill instead of lots of little things like hair-pulling and biting.  In that case, you would just type a certain command and there'd be a chance that you were able to get away with a special move that would be somewhat random, depending on your opponent (obviously hair-pulling would not work on a mul or dwarf) and then, if you succeeded, the move would be executed.

There isn't really much place for these in armed combat. If you're close enough to pull someone's hair (and, with both hands holding weapons, you'd need to drop something), you're close enough to stab them repeatedly in the face. One of these attacks is much, much more effective than the other. I'd expect "dirty" fighting on Arm to rely more heavily on concealed weaponry and surprise. And, what do you know, we've got a whole class devoted to that concept!

Perhaps a ground sweep? When a person is knocked down, would it be unrealistic for another person to try sweep-kick the standing guy's legs out from under him?

Short answer: yes, it's unrealistic. Longer answer: sweeps don't work that way (unless they're on one leg themselves and have just missed a kick, upper body control is mandatory), and kicking someone in a firmly planted leg leads to bruises all round. And if your opponent is trying to impale you with a sharp and pointy object, wasting time on bruising his shins is probably ill-advised.

[rufus]

Let's get some Monk classes and stuff.

Code Select Expand

You deftly poke all of a yellow kank's pressure points!
Groaning, a yellow kank falls over on the ground.

[Ktavialt]

Let's get some Monk classes and stuff.

I could see a martial artist being more prevalent in Tuluk than in
Allanak - Allanak's just too bare fisted, bloody bladed, rough and
barfight type of atmosphere.

Although, in any case, if a "Monk" class comes around where it is
actually called a Monk class, I would be forced to shoot someone.

- Ktavialt

[Agent_137]

Let's get some Monk classes and stuff.

Code Select Expand

You deftly poke all of a yellow kank's pressure points!
Groaning, a yellow kank falls over on the ground.

Yea, this isn't really the game for that. Ever.

[Forest Junkie]

No to pressure points. If you really want to experience this IC, try learning it, or finding a master.

Or, ask around if something like this already exists. You never know  :wink:

[Sokotra]

There isn't really much place for these in armed combat. If you're close enough to pull someone's hair (and, with both hands holding weapons, you'd need to drop something), you're close enough to stab them repeatedly in the face. One of these attacks is much, much more effective than the other. I'd expect "dirty" fighting on Arm to rely more heavily on concealed weaponry and surprise. And, what do you know, we've got a whole class devoted to that concept!

Heh, yeah.. pulling hair is probably a bad example.  Then again, that could be an advantage one might have for just wielding one weapon, giving a good reason for everyone not to try and be super-ninja dual-wield masters.  The basic idea was just to find ways to make combat in Armageddon more gritty and to make it better represent a life or death struggle that might take place in certain cases.  I sorta touched on this in the rest of my post, just throwing out some ideas off the top of my head.

In real life, and especially in a place like Zalanthas where life and death struggles are commonplace, fighting isn't always going to be "parry, thrust, parry, thrust".  I know we can make things more interesting with emotes and some of the special moves that are already in the game, but I think there is room for improvement.

Just as a quick examle, imagine if you were actually in a knife fight or take a look at some gladiatorial-type fights of any sort.  There is going to be a LOT of improvisation in trying to get the edge on your opponent.  I would imagine an elbow to the nose, knee to the groin, sand thrown in the face, and different things like that would be rather common.  You are not always going to be exactly weapons-length apart and standing still going "parry, block, swing, parry, block, swing".  

And again, a good answer would be to emote things like missing, falling forward, flanking your opponent as they miss, trying to trip them as they move for a better position, etc.   So if we want to stick to that sort of thing, fine.  I just think there might be some room for a few extra moves to make things more interesting.  A headbutt, backhand across the jaw, knee to the groin and things like that would make sense to me when you ended up too close to your opponent to get a good swing with your 5 ft. sword of doom.  Again, look at a gladiatorial match.  I also think certain weapons like man-catchers, nets, and whips (to name a few) should have a little bit of a special action to attempt to gain advantage over an opponent. (nothing drastic, I'm not talking about adding ridiculous, uber kank-thrashing, insta-slay, paralyzing, death commands here)

Personally, I thought it would be cool to allow pickpockets and other little creeps that might not normally have much in the way of offense/defense to be able to do something like toss a handful of dust/sand in your face in order to allow an escape or distraction of some sort.